Clinical psychologist vs clinical neuropsychologist

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mw817

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Hi,

I'm currently in the process of researching grad programs and I've thought for a while now that I wanted to do a PhD in clinical psychology -- I want to work with/research kids with autism. I'm sort of confused about what the differences are between a PhD in clinical psychology and a PhD in clinical neuropsychology in regards to education, research, and post-grad jobs?
Thanks!

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Hi,

I'm currently in the process of researching grad programs and I've thought for a while now that I wanted to do a PhD in clinical psychology -- I want to work with/research kids with autism. I'm sort of confused about what the differences are between a PhD in clinical psychology and a PhD in clinical neuropsychology in regards to education, research, and post-grad jobs?
Thanks!

To add to what Wiseneuro posted; clinical neuropsychology is a speciality within professional psychology. Think of it like medicine - those who graduate with the D.O. or M.D. are physicians first and foremost. Their license grants them the ability to practice medicine (there are no specifications). Technically, a licensed allopathic or osteopathic physician could perform surgery regardless if they went on to residency for it or not. In terms of how the state issues the license, there is no special license for psychiatrist, neurologist, surgeon etc. Same concept is to be applied to clinical psychology and neuropsychology. The license you get from the state license the person as a psychologist. Technically, a person without formal residency training (i.e., post-doc) could perform neuropsychological assessments. In fact, the APA ethics code states that a psychologist must take proactive measures to acquire the requisite knowledge before they offer those services. However, as far as the state is concerned, your license grants you the ability to practice psychology. So, if you are a clinical neuropsychologist, you are first and foremost a psychologist. With residency training along with other experiences (such as externship and internship during your doctorate) and dissertation, you can market yourself as a clinical neuropsychologist (these are the div. 40 guidelines). Granted, the guidelines are flexible enough to the point that one does not have to take neuropsychology classes, or complete a dissertation, externship, internship or post doc to qualify. Any combination of those experiences would generally meet the division's guidelines. Personally, I prefer the "all of the above" approach.
 
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To add to what Wiseneuro posted; clinical neuropsychology is a speciality within professional psychology. Think of it like medicine - those who graduate with the D.O. or M.D. are physicians first and foremost. Their license grants them the ability to practice medicine (there are no specifications). Technically, a licensed allopathic or osteopathic physician could perform surgery regardless if they went on to residency for it or not. In terms of how the state issues the license, there is no special license for psychiatrist, neurologist, surgeon etc. Same concept is to be applied to clinical psychology and neuropsychology. The license you get from the state license the person as a psychologist. Technically, a person without formal residency training (i.e., post-doc) could perform neuropsychological assessments. In fact, the APA ethics code states that a psychologist must take proactive measures to acquire the requisite knowledge before they offer those services. However, as far as the state is concerned, your license grants you the ability to practice psychology. So, if you are a clinical neuropsychologist, you are first and foremost a psychologist. With residency training along with other experiences (such as externship and internship during your doctorate) and dissertation, you can market yourself as a clinical neuropsychologist (these are the div. 40 guidelines). Granted, the guidelines are flexible enough to the point that one does not have to take neuropsychology classes, or complete a dissertation, externship, internship or post doc to qualify. Any combination of those experiences would generally meet the division's guidelines. Personally, I prefer the "all of the above" approach.


Which theorist are you channeling now? Just want to be sure.
 
... Not channeling any "theorist." Why the hostility?

You are using a lot of big words, which make you seem self righteous, and clearly think you're better than others.

You've set up those parameters, and you've said it wasn't hostile when you did it.
 
You are using a lot of big words, which make you seem self righteous, and clearly think you're better than others.

You've set up those parameters, and you've said it wasn't hostile when you did it.

Ah, I see...we are still hashing out an argument we had month(s) ago? Either way, just providing some information. I hope "providing" wasn't too big of a word. I mean it....bigly.
 
Ah, I see...we are still hashing out an argument we had month(s) ago? Either way, just providing some information. I hope "providing" wasn't too big of a word. I mean it....bigly.

Ah, so not using big words is also grounds for your contempt. Why the hostility?
 
lmao...shall we end the cycle?

Naw, I'm fine with the way you set things up. You've created a really nice set of rules for everyone else that do not apply to you. Call someone out, that's okay. Someone says something about your ideas it's hostile.

You continue to do so. Big words =self righteous. Small words= contempt.

So, no. I'm having fun.
 
Naw, I'm fine with the way you set things up. You've created a really nice set of rules for everyone else that do not apply to you. Call someone out, that's okay. Someone says something about your ideas it's hostile.

You continue to do so. Big words =self righteous. Small words= contempt.

So, no. I'm having fun.

Okie dokie.
 
To add to what Wiseneuro posted; clinical neuropsychology is a speciality within professional psychology. Think of it like medicine - those who graduate with the D.O. or M.D. are physicians first and foremost. Their license grants them the ability to practice medicine (there are no specifications). Technically, a licensed allopathic or osteopathic physician could perform surgery regardless if they went on to residency for it or not. In terms of how the state issues the license, there is no special license for psychiatrist, neurologist, surgeon etc.

Firstly, physicians have a boarding process in addition to their licensing. Good luck getting any jobs in a particular specialty if you don't have the required board certification. Hell, there's even boarding in peds and family medicine.

Secondly, theoretically, a physician who isn't boarded in a surgical specialty could technically perform surgery, maybe in an emergency, but you open yourself up to huge liability if anything goes wrong compared to someone who is actually boarded.

Same concept is to be applied to clinical psychology and neuropsychology. The license you get from the state license the person as a psychologist. Technically, a person without formal residency training (i.e., post-doc) could perform neuropsychological assessments. In fact, the APA ethics code states that a psychologist must take proactive measures to acquire the requisite knowledge before they offer those services. However, as far as the state is concerned, your license grants you the ability to practice psychology. So, if you are a clinical neuropsychologist, you are first and foremost a psychologist. With residency training along with other experiences (such as externship and internship during your doctorate) and dissertation, you can market yourself as a clinical neuropsychologist (these are the div. 40 guidelines). Granted, the guidelines are flexible enough to the point that one does not have to take neuropsychology classes, or complete a dissertation, externship, internship or post doc to qualify. Any combination of those experiences would generally meet the division's guidelines. Personally, I prefer the "all of the above" approach.
Where are you getting this from? Sure, the Houston Conference Guidelines are a vertical, not linear, model, allowing for some flexibility in training, but I pretty sure Div 40 would object to the assertion that you are qualified as a clinical neuropsychologist if you never complete any externship, internship, post-doc, coursework, or other training in neuropsychology.
 
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Mod Note: Let's please try to remain on-topic.

The two-year postdoctoral experience (of some kind) is pretty set in stone at this point, at least as far as boarding is concerned. There's some flexibility as to what can count toward that, though, as with how much neuropsych experience you need prior to fellowship. In general, if you haven't taken any formal coursework or didactics at any point, and haven't had any neuropsych-focused clinical experiences (supervised by a neuropsychologist), your odds of meeting boarding credential review are slim.

mw817, when you say, "work with kids with autism," was is it exactly (or even just generally) you'd like to do as a part of that work? What part(s) of ASD and working with individuals with ASD interest you? What is it you'd like to research?

I don't know many neuropsychologists who focus solely on autism spectrum disorders, but there are plenty of pediatric neuropsychologists who I'm sure work in that arena as a part of their day-to-day responsibilities. Caveat--I'm not a pediatric neuropsychologist, so take that with a grain of salt. Research from a neuropsych perspective into ASD may allow for a more ASD-only focus.

On the flip side, there are certainly psychologists who work exclusively or almost exclusively with ASD.
 
Firstly, physicians have a boarding process in addition to their licensing. Good luck getting any jobs in a particular specialty if you don't have the required board certification. Hell, there's even boarding in peds and family medicine.

Secondly, theoretically, a physician who isn't boarded in a surgical specialty could technically perform surgery, maybe in an emergency, but you open yourself up to huge liability if anything goes wrong compared to someone who is actually boarded.


Where are you getting this from? Sure, the Houston Conference Guidelines are a vertical, not linear, model, allowing for some flexibility in training, but I pretty sure Div 40 would object to the assertion that you are qualified as a clinical neuropsychologist if you never complete any externship, internship, post-doc, coursework, or other training in neuropsychology.

Where I retrieved my information about the shady element of the general practice medical license has been posted above. Also, if you read the reference I provided, you will see an example of an OBGYN who decided to merge into laser surgical procedures. You have other doctors who may have been trained in general surgery who merge into plastics with a trail of destruction. Again, technically, they are within the limits of their license, does it make it right? Perhaps not.

Secondly, in reference to neuropsychologists marketing or operating without any formal focused training is not new, I have seen many clinicians state they provide neuropsychological, forensic, etc. types of assessment. Should they? In my opinion, no. Can they, sure. How does the APA Ethics Code view this? It's flexible enough to allow practitioners who are in emergency or restricted geographic situations to acquire a certain requisite knowledge within a timely manner with supervision or collaboration to perform these assessments. The code of ethics itself is flexible in that regard. When I referenced externships, coursework, dissertation, internship and post-doc, I was stating that a neuropsychologist technically does not have to achieve every single one of those methods of learning to acquire the knowledge and ability to market themselves as neuropsychologists. For example, person A. might have completed a dissertation on a topic within neuropsychology and a general clinical internship but was lucky to get a post-doc in neuropsychology. In this regard, they didn't take coursework, nor went through externship or an internship in which 50% or more of their time was dedicated to neuropsychology. Person B. could have done all of the above (in my opinion, is the preferred method).

As far as div. 40 is concerned, there is flexibility, and the guidelines themselves are used at the moment in an aspirational context much like portions of ethics code. I think both of us agree that it is preferred more, not less, in which those parameters should be implemented when developing as a future clinical neuropsychologist. At the end of the day, being board certified is not a requirement to practice. I plan on going for ABPP, but I know many others who do not, and that is the rule, not the exception. For us, even board certification in neuropsychology is not required. Until APA or whomever makes it so, you will have people who received their doctorate, went onto an APA accredited internship at a university counseling center for example who administer a WAIS, maybe TMT A/B and some other common NP measures and then call themselves a neuropsychologist, or at least market that they offer such assessment in their practice. Personally, I am not a fan of that. But that is me.
 
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