Clinical experience is B.S. !!!

[LUBDUBB]

Every time I read a thread about clinical experience, I always hear peaple saying, "don't do it to please adcoms, do it to see if you like medicine. Recently, my premed advisor told me to get more clinicals to see if medicine is right for me.

THIS IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF BS I HAVE EVER HEARD!!!

Most of us go out and get clinical experience because we know that we have to do it in order to get into med school. Do you think that after taking all the premed class and busting your a$$ that all of sudden you're going to change your mind because of some volunteering experience?? Give me a break!

Once people decide to be premed in college, they are going to stick with it. The only thing that can change one's mind is GPA.
I'm sick of hearing "you have to go out and be in the field to see if it's you really for you". If adcoms really think that people are doing clinicals to see if they like medicine, they are fooling themselves. If they think that students are deterred from medicine after "experiencing it" via clinicals, they are the biggest idiots on the face of the planet.

Back in the day, those who studied medicine didn't have to volunteer, shadow or even be exposed to the field to gain admissions. It is impossible to know if you really like medicine or whether you'll be a good doctor until you are actually a doctor.

You think if schools didn't look at clinicals, that students would go out there and do it?? Of course not!

I challenge someone to show me a student who was premed in college, took the premed classes, did well in school, and then decided not to go to medical school because clinical experience "opened his/her eyes" .

Well what about those who experience medicine and then decide after college or late in college that they want to go to med school?? Doesn't that justify doing clinical experience?? NO...those people would have done clinicals regardless of whether med school requires them. This number is infinitesimal compared to the number of students who are premed from the get-go.

Do you actually think that everyone enjoys bio, gen chem, orgo, physics, and clinical experience?? NO these are things we do so WE CAN GET INTO MEDICAL SCHOOL.


~Lubdubb

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Horseradish99]

Another gunner was born... and the world smiled.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Well, I sort of agree. I think most volunteering/clinical experiences don't really teach you anything about actually being a clinician.

The biggest factor that has made me doubt whether I really wanted to do this was all the bull**** we have go to through, plus how long this road is. Do I really want to be in school until I'm almost 30? Do I really just want to start working when I'm 33?

College would have been really fun if I didn't need a good GPA.

 

[GoodMonkey]

my fantastic clinical volunteer experience led me to drop out of graduate school in aquatic ecology and apply to medical school.

your gross generalizations don't apply to everyone. granted, clinical experience can't necessarily outright determine whether or not you like medicine/like being a doctor, but it CAN tell you if you can tolerate being around sick people, interacting with people on a daily basis, asking uncomfortable questions about sex and drug use when you'd rather not, seeing blood/vomit/insert bodily fluid here, dealing with the very elderly, dealing with raging parents, dealing with clinical professionalism.... and the list goes on, depending on what kind of experience you have. now obviously, some of these experiences are more in-depth than others, but for some people, doing them may result in a profound change of heart re: their vocation. for some people it'll result in them choosing nursing over medicine because that speaks to them more. for others, it could provide them with the realization that they HATE dealing with sick people. for yet others, they'll maybe realize they belong at a lab bench, or behind a piano, or flying a plane or whatever, just anywhere except the hospital.

for every reason you want to shout for how you shouldn't be necessarily doing anything clinically related, i'll give you one where you should.

 

[ForensicPath]

I'm not sure if this counts as "clinical" experience, but I really enjoyed my experience with the medical examiner.

 

[Brickhouse]

If you are going to be a doctor, you'd better enjoy being in a clinical setting.

So if you enjoy being in a clinical setting, wouldn't you naturally seek out opportunities to be there, or at least not gripe and complain about having to be there?

I think the adcoms asking you to have clinical experience is their way of asking if you are dedicated to your journey. If it's that much of an inconvenience for you, maybe you should reconsider your choice. And therefore, yes, the clinical experience has helped you make your decision.

 

[GoodMonkey]

Originally posted by Brickhouse
If it's that much of an inconvenience for you, maybe you should reconsider your choice.

 

[GoodMonkey]

Originally posted by mmapcpro
Hey GoodMonkey, say a guy is working near full time to help support his wife and kids, going to school to pursue his dream, and studying just as long to succeed in school.

You still feel that if it's inconvenient for him to volunteer or take a severe cut in salary to gain clinical experience that he made a bad choice in choosing to pursue dental school?

inconvenient? well, i don't know.... you're talking to someone who worked full-time at one job, worked another job on the weekends (had a down payment to make on a house) and still managed to volunteer while doing so. (i was out of undergrad) but good for you that you're working so hard! it's admirable, for sure ... i still recommend getting in at least a wee bit of shadowing or something. it only takes a couple hours here and there to get a feel for a clinical setting.

and when did i ever say one is making a *bad choice* in choosing to pursue whatever school (and anyway, isn't this the preallo forum?) ...? i don't recall saying that. questioning motivation... yeah, i do say that.

but, what, did you one day wake up and say, "hey, yeah! teeth! now that's what i'm about!" or something along those lines? something had to get you to the point of making that decision.... i'm guessing it was some exposure to dentistry in one way or another. i do take a bit of an issue w/people who have absolutely ZERO exposure to any sort of clinical setting and are nonetheless determined that medicine is for them. how the crap do they know?? well, maybe they've had a parent as a physician, or had an experience with illness, or have worked as a med tech or whathave you, but that in itself is exposure to a clinical setting nonetheless. i am wary of someone's motivation for medical school (or hey, even dental school) when they have no idea what goes on in a clinical setting.

anyway, the short of this lengthy story of mine here is that someone who is determined that medicine (or, uh, dentistry, was it) is absolutely right for them shouldn't be complaining about getting in some clinical experience (like the OP). sorry if i came off otherwise.

 

[Treg]

I geared my whole undergraduate program to attending medical school. After I worked for a summer in a residency training center and did a year of hospital apprenticeship, and decided that I didn't have the passion for medicine that I thought I would. I talked it over with my advisor, who encouraged me to spend time doing research in a lab. By the time I was done with undergrad, I decided to put off medical school with the prospect that I might not ever go, despite stellar marks, EC experiences, etc. Well, in the four years since then, I have won 12 research related awards, published 3 papers (soon to be 5), and have presented my work at 5 national meetings. I have realized now that I really want to be a clinical scientist, so I am applying to medicine for 2004. I, unlike most people here, am applying to less than ten schools, since I will only go somewhere that I can continue to do research at the postdoctoral level in an outstanding lab while in med school.
So, long story short, I think that it is reallyimportant to pursue clinical experience, to make sure it is right for you. You need to have the passion to give in to the incredible lifestyle change you are in for in a career in medicine.

Juliet
Mouse diabetologist
Wife
Mommy to one
All by 25!

 

[Teufelhunden]

Yeah...pre-med clinical exposure is essentially worthless. It's not as if you're truly "testing the waters"...I mean, you could shadow a doc in a primary care setting and absolutely hate it. Does that mean you're not cut out for medicine? Hell, no. You may just hate primary care.

Anyway, the types of jobs or volunteer positions you can get as an undergrad or so limited, there's no way to use those experiences to help you decide if medicine is right for you or not.

Basically, we all take a big gamble when we go to med school. Luckily, medicine is very diverse...so if you absolutely hate seeing patients, you can go into rads or path. There's a niche for all of us in medicine.

 

[KatieOConnor]

I definitely started volunteering to see if I was "cut out" for medicine. I like the idea of helping people and all that, but I needed to see first hand whether I could stomach being around the very sick. I have seen the aftermaths of a few car-pedestrian accidents and all have left me disturbed and crying. I honestly wasn't sure if I could deal with the realities of the sick and hurt. So I started volunteering at the local hospital, and I've talked to a few doctors about my concerns.

So I learned a few things from my clinical experience:

Doctors too are disturbed by things such as car-pedestrian accidents, one does not need to be completely desensetized.

I am not turned off by the things that occur in a hospital setting (people throwing up, people in extreme pain, etc)

Maybe other people know themselves better, and know that they would be comfortable in such situations. But, not everyone volunteers "just" so the experience can appear on their applications, although I this is a nice benefit for me.

 

[Wednesday]

I challenge someone to show me a student who was premed in college, took the premed classes, did well in school, and then decided not to go to medical school because clinical experience "opened his/her eyes" .

My best friend was premed all through college, good grades, good ECs, etc. She got into some special program at her school where only a few students get to shadow different types of physicians during the spring of their junior year. As a result of that program she decided that she didn't want to be a doctor after all. True story.

The whole clinical experience thing might be BS for some people, but I think it's valuable for most. If anything, you have a chance to see something that starts to shape your idea of what type of doctor you want to be (or don't want to be) before you are indoctrinated in med school.

 

[GoodMonkey]

coupla points:

Originally posted by mmapcpro
If this troubles you, there might be other "elitist" issues here.

1)mmapcpro: yeah i'm elitist as all get out. since you know me so well. please. anyway, my point was that this thread was about clinical experience necessary to get into medical school, and it's in a preallopathic forum. i was just wondering why you were posting in it, that's all. last i knew, it was a little bit different to get into dental school. i'm not saying easier/harder/whathave you, just different. and i have a sister who is a dentist and another who is a nurse, so i'm familiar w/both of their application processes to get into their respective schools.

originally posted by mmapcpro
I happen to have gained my exposure through my present career. However, I don't have the time to volunteer or "shadow" at an office for extended periods of time. And as such, some have mentioned that I might (or should, in their eyes) face admittance trouble.

3) well, good for you that you have exposure with your present career... that's great. but if you didn't get that exposure, then how on earth would you know you wanted to be a dentist? how do you know you could even deal with working in other people's mouths? would you have pulled it out of thin air? and what would be your motivation?

Originally posted by LUBDUBB
I'm sick of hearing "you have to go out and be in the field to see if it's you really for you". If adcoms really think that people are doing clinicals to see if they like medicine, they are fooling themselves. If they think that students are deterred from medicine after "experiencing it" via clinicals, they are the biggest idiots on the face of the planet.

2)actually, i was initally premed in college for a couple of years and changed my mind. i had a bad experience volunteering at the hospital and i had a great great experience doing ecology fieldwork... hence the pursuit of graduate school in aquatic ecology. AND going back for more relevant clinical experience really did change my mind when i discovered i loved my volunteer work at the clinic more than i did grad school- hence, i am now in medical school, 5 years after i graduated from undergrad and 2 years after dropping out of graduate school.

originally posted by mmapcpro
Umm, I don't think the OP was talking about witnessing clinical activities to help him decide whether he wanted to be in the profession or not.

no... but he did say that he felt people did not participate/seek out clinical activities solely for the want of doing them or for seeing if medicine was right for them. i felt that was untrue, and my situation definitely speaks to negate that point of view, as do a few others on this thread.

while it may or may not be "convenient" for someone to pursue clinically-related experiences is not my point here ... my point is that yes, for some people, getting that clinical exposure is KEY to deciding if one wants to go to med school, and yes, i do believe everyone should have SOME sort of experience or exposure in a clinical setting before deciding if they want to go into medicine.

if i were sitting on an admissions committee with two applications in front of me, one with great grades, great test scores and having never even set foot into any sort of medically-related clinical situation .... and one with good grades, good test scores and even a little bit of worthwhile clinical exposure (and therefore likely able to believably explain why they chose medicine in the first place), i'm likely to pick the 2nd applicant. how would the first applicant be able to explain his/her desire for medicine if s/he had never even experienced anything other than yearly checkups from her/his FP?

but hey, just my opinion.

 

[superdevil]

i think the op is at least half right. although i didn't experience any "revelations" while job shadowing a physician, it was a friggin' blast and i did learn a lot. i would, however, tend to get on my soapbox about the whole volunteerism thingy, though. seriously, pre-meds do that to look good. am i cynical and jaded? well, yea, i am. but all i learned from my volunteering in a hospital was that wheeling around unconscious patients from room to room and delivering x-ray jackets doesn't teach you much about actually being a doctor. of course, i have a sneaking suspicion that my experience was worse than most others.

but seriously, on the topic of non-clinical volunteerism...i really have trouble seeing this one clearly. i know that SOME of the people who do it do so for the right reasons and still would even if they weren't pre-med. that's great, honestly, but its the exception, not the rule. at my school, our pre-med club schedules events so we can all go to soup kitchens, orphanages, habitat for humanity developments....all with the underlying thought of "ok, everybody, lets go make that AMCAS transcript shine!" does the ortho surgeon i shadowed do volunteer work for habitat for humanity? NO. why? wait for it...wait for it...because he's too busy....(here it comes)...BEING A SURGEON!!! after working 80 hours a week, he likes to see his family and make sure his (huge) house isn't falling apart while he's away. does this make him a bad person? hell no. its just the reality that some of us have suspended in our quest to get there.

that was officially my longest sdn rant ever. sorry

 

[PMED99]

I enjoy clinical experience. As long as the doctor and staff that I am following/helping or working with are nice and friendly, I enjoy it more than a good hobby. Just the same as I enjoy playing football, working out, or playing video games, I enjoy being in a hospital or working with a patient.

Ill admit, some things I do to "jump through the hoops" for the adcoms, but why do it if you dont enjoy it. Why decide to do this job if it is not your passion. And dont say money, cause there is much more out there that makes 10x the money in 10x the shorter time period. And dont say prestige, cause I know at least 10 jobs that draw better prestige these days.

I truly find it sad when people dont enjoy the line of work they are in, or what they will be in. I feel for you, life must suck doing what you dislike.

My 2 cents, take it or leave it

 

[zero counter]

Judging by the title of the thread, any post against the originator's would be subject to ridicule. So it would be futile to oppose that person.

 

[lyragrl]

Originally posted by GoodMonkey
Maybe they've had a parent as a physician, or had an experience with illness, or have worked as a med tech or whathave you, but that in itself is exposure to a clinical setting nonetheless. i am wary of someone's motivation for medical school (or hey, even dental school) when they have no idea what goes on in a clinical setting.

This is interesting, though, because I'm in this particular situation. I've done some volunteering--but not a ton. However, I spent a year basically living in a hospital on the weekends caring for a family member with a terminal illness. I also grew up in a medical family. I feel like both of these experiences taught me more about medical life than my volunteering ever has. Nevertheless, I get the feeling that my experiences aren't as "respected" because they were personal rather than structured volunteer work.

 

[Street Philosopher]

Grasshoppers,

Obvious point #1: Just because something is required of you, it doesn't mean you cannot enjoy it.

Obvious point #2: There are often multiple ways to accomplish a task.

Obvious point #3: Just because something is done for one purpose, it doesn't mean it cannot result in unforseen or unintended consequences.

Putting it into context: Clinical experience and/or experience related to medicine is pretty much a requirement for medical school. But clinical experience or experience related to medicine entails much more than just being a pencil pusher at a hospital; there are a wide variety of experiences.

Medicine is an incredibly diverse field, involving research, clinical work, teaching, public policy, international health, and other social aspects. Surely, in a field as diverse as this, one can find suitable experiences relevent to medicine. For example, social outreach experience, public policy research/planning/advocacy, etc. are all medically related experiences. To make it more personal, I did not have hospital-related experiences during college, but I took a multi-faceted approach to experiencing what medicine is like. I worked in social outreach, did basic science research, did public health research, and taught summer school. If you cannot find any such experiences that interest you, then you might question why you want to go to medical school in the first place.

I think a subtle, but very important point is that you do not have to enter a volunteer (or even paid) experience with the sole purpose of "enjoying what you do." People in the real world understand that there are some hoops you need to go through in order to achieve certain goals. Sometimes people feel guilty for doing something just to get into medical school... sort of a guilt about not doing things for the "right reasons." Well, I'm here to tell you, that this kind of mentality is misguided. The fact is that you are doing something constructive, whatever your motivations might be. It's okay to not feel guilty; it's part of living in the real world. However, having said this, it is in your best interest to find some activity that you can enjoy doing. Given the diversity of the field (as I already mentioned), there is no reason why anyone should suffer through a job that they absolutely hate.

Lastly, I just want to say to all the cynics out there... there is method behind the madness in the adcoms looking for experience with medicine. It's not just screen lazy people out (if that was their intention, that obviously didn't work with me). It's also for YOUR benefit, so that you can see if medicine offers something that you might enjoy. This is especially relevent if you are one of those "I wanted to be a doctor since I was in my mother's womb" people. I too was sure that I wanted to be a doctor, but my desire was superficial and theoretical. Only when I had experiences volunteering did I have a fuller understanding of what it FEELS LIKE to be a doctor.

I hope that helps.

 

[Paws]

Well, I think the clinical experience is important like alot of people mentioned. I loved my experiences and treated it like the best job I ever had - which, in many ways it was. I loved it !

It really helped me to see just how much I did like the patient contact, and it motivated me to work hard to be able to stay in the field.

 

[GoodMonkey]

Originally posted by mmapcpro
I'm tired, and I'm sure you've never been incorrect about anything in your mind, so I'm done here.

Have fun.

oh of course not.
for crying out loud, that's why i preface and concluded all my stuff with "it's just my opinion." we're all entitled to them. but, whatever. *shrug*

 

[calcrew14]

QUOTE]Originally posted by LUBDUBB
Every time I read a thread about clinical experience, I always hear peaple saying, "don't do it to please adcoms, do it to see if you like medicine. Recently, my premed advisor told me to get more clinicals to see if medicine is right for me.
THIS IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF BS I HAVE EVER HEARD!!!
~Lubdubb [/QUOTE]

Lubdubb has the right to remain silent.....ooopse, pardon my dislocating tongue. Let me try again......After all is said and done, Lubdubb has the right to reap all the return benefits of his investments any way he wishes, as long as it is within ethical standard and legal limit. So far the deal is fair enough for him. On the other hand, I always understand why he can not afford to sing the sound of silence though.

Whether or not clinical experience is necessary I don't know. My personal opinion is that redundancies do exist in more than one area of the entire admitting process. There are too many repetitions that unnecessarily escalate the expen$e$, take away a lot of time and drain most of our energy. And after the tedium of sophisticated journey through the vicinity of Eutopia, the uniqueness that each adcom finds is often labelled indistinguishably from randomness. I wonder if anyone owes me an explanation? I swear that I am not going to use it in my ps.

 

[trauma_junky]

Originally posted by ForensicPath
I'm not sure if this counts as "clinical" experience, but I really enjoyed my experience with the medical examiner.

I think you're dead on!

 

[beamiestface]

Do you think that after taking all the premed class and busting your a$$ that all of sudden you're going to change your mind because of some volunteering experience?? Give me a break!

I agree that many clinical volunteer experiences available to premeds are BS and are not very similar to anything you'd do as a doctor. However, many premeds DO change their minds because they realize that medicine just isn't for them, not because they have a low GPA and couldn't get in. I was premed for 2 years of college and had a 3.8 GPA....but then decided that medicine wouldn't be the career that made me the happiest, that I was doing it just because it "sounded good". Plenty of people can hack the classes just fine, but <i>want</i> to be doing other things.

 

[SpongeBobby]

I can't agree with the OP anymore. Premeds have a special language. If their GPA is low and they know they can't get into an American medical school they say, "I decided medicine wasn't the thing for me. ______ seems to interest me more and I can have a life if I pursue a career in _______ ." Also some premeds forgot they waste all their afterschool hours volunteering because they need to look good for the admission office. True altruistic behavior doesn't exist in any human being with an IQ over 70.

 

[bivwack]

.Yea, I volunteered in an ER to get some "clinical" experience. I hated it, hated everything about it, dreaded going there, did the minimum amount of time I could and was glad to be done w/ it when accepted. Being some tool with no real responsibilities wondering around an er looking for something to do, is not the role I plan to fill in the medical field. But I needed it for medschool and I guess it gave me some experience in being in a clinical setting