CLEVELAND CLINIC FLORIDA - BS program - is this legal

[taco bell]

CCF is a shady, unreliable program, not worthy for anybody to rank. I have personal beef with this program.. Went to interview for a PRELIM position in JANUARY, YET they decided to fill ALL 3 of their prelim positions out of the match. I found out when I realized that they dont even have any prelim openings through NRMP. That is BS! Why interview US MD candidates if they end up filling through pre-match with FMG and IMG.. This is absolutely ridiculous. This program refuses to reply to emails, phone calls, etc. I hope nobody ranks this program. Is there any way to report this?

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[jdh71]

CCF is a shady, unreliable program, not worthy for anybody to rank. I have personal beef with this program.. Went to interview for a PRELIM position in JANUARY, YET they decided to fill ALL 3 of their prelim positions out of the match. I found out when I realized that they dont even have any prelim openings through NRMP. That is BS! Why interview US MD candidates if they end up filling through pre-match with FMG and IMG.. This is absolutely ridiculous. This program refuses to reply to emails, phone calls, etc. I hope nobody ranks this program. Is there any way to report this?

That was pretty messed up. Costs money to go interview.

I love threads like this.

 

[Bitterman]

CCF is a shady, unreliable program, not worthy for anybody to rank. I have personal beef with this program.. Went to interview for a PRELIM position in JANUARY, YET they decided to fill ALL 3 of their prelim positions out of the match. I found out when I realized that they dont even have any prelim openings through NRMP. That is BS! Why interview US MD candidates if they end up filling through pre-match with FMG and IMG.. This is absolutely ridiculous. This program refuses to reply to emails, phone calls, etc. I hope nobody ranks this program. Is there any way to report this?

Sounds like they're taking desperate IMGs. so I doubt they care if any AMG ranks them or not

 

[asmith1121]

CCF is a shady, unreliable program, not worthy for anybody to rank. I have personal beef with this program.. Went to interview for a PRELIM position in JANUARY, YET they decided to fill ALL 3 of their prelim positions out of the match. I found out when I realized that they dont even have any prelim openings through NRMP. That is BS! Why interview US MD candidates if they end up filling through pre-match with FMG and IMG.. This is absolutely ridiculous. This program refuses to reply to emails, phone calls, etc. I hope nobody ranks this program. Is there any way to report this?

Omg- lol I started a thread like this in "internship" I was so pissed! I interviewed in January for the prelim and was very interested. Went to rank it- gone! Plus they don't make it clear that 2 spots are reserved for neuro prelim and it's a separate #. The PD did respond to me and said that they pre matched. So in reality we interviewed for one spot that got filled outside the match- hundreds of dollars for nothing. So pissed.

 

[Chakrabs]

Well starting this year, the NRMP requires all programs to adhere to an "all-in" system. So, if they want to take part in the match, they either put all their spots up for the match or none. And I believe these programs aren't eligible for the SOAP if they're not in the match to begin with (not 100% sure on that though). So, if CC-Fl or any other program really liked an IMG or FMG candidate and they wanted them, they would have had to pull all their slots from the match.

 

[Apollyon]

Well starting this year, the NRMP requires all programs to adhere to an "all-in" system. So, if they want to take part in the match, they either put all their spots up for the match or none. And I believe these programs aren't eligible for the SOAP if they're not in the match to begin with (not 100% sure on that though). So, if CC-Fl or any other program really liked an IMG or FMG candidate and they wanted them, they would have had to pull all their slots from the match.

Not this year; 2013 - unless you mean the app season starting in 2012. Then you are correct. It's on the front page of the NRMP site.

 

[Oxer45]

I had similar experience at a different program. A day before I was supposed to fly out 1/2 way across the country, PD called me and told me he prematched all positions. Had to cancel plane ticket and lost $200. At least he was honest and didn't make me go to a "fake" interview.

 

[fishsnack]

Way to keep your cool. I think I would go nuts over this. We get jerked around enough with outrageous test fees etc. Thankfully the prematch business will be gone by next year.

 

[bhumik]

Yep on top of that their secrtary is extremely incompetent with scheduling and email and they lie to your face about prematching. Atleast be honest and say the truth if you are going to pre match

 

[surge55]

new poster here just sounding off on this.

as an IMG, I liked the prematch ability because is was practically the only advantage we have over USMGs

I am a US citizen but didn't quite get good enough grades for US Medical schools, so I went to Ross and got solid medical training and had solid board scores, but most programs that did not interview me were simplyl not interested in me because I went to Ross. If I take my board scores and abilities and go to a US school I get interviewed and ranked accordingly at solid, university based programs whereas what my experience was were solid community programs and only a handful university based ones. In fact, my home university program where I worked for before Ross gave me an interview but came out and said they won't rank me competitively even thogh I know my scores are just as good as their medical school grads. that said, I was lucky to be offered a prematch position at a great community based program and will be starting there in the summer.

Cleveland Clinic is a very good training program and has been training Rossies and other FMGs for many years. they produce some of the better trained medical students in the country and are more than happy to accept FMGs because they know they are well trained as well.

the OP is most likely a US grad - you get your pick of the litter when it comes to interviews unless you completely bombed your step, and even then you still get more shots than a comparable FMG does simply because you are a US grade...and you are complaining over a couple of spots you can't match and a couple hundred dollars you lost out on?

try not thinking about yourself for once and think about how its a lot tougher for others out there to get spots even though they are perfectly qualified for said position.

 

[dd128]

new poster here just sounding off on this.

as an IMG, I liked the prematch ability because is was practically the only advantage we have over USMGs

I am a US citizen but didn't quite get good enough grades for US Medical schools, so I went to Ross and got solid medical training and had solid board scores, but most programs that did not interview me were simplyl not interested in me because I went to Ross. If I take my board scores and abilities and go to a US school I get interviewed and ranked accordingly at solid, university based programs whereas what my experience was were solid community programs and only a handful university based ones. In fact, my home university program where I worked for before Ross gave me an interview but came out and said they won't rank me competitively even thogh I know my scores are just as good as their medical school grads. that said, I was lucky to be offered a prematch position at a great community based program and will be starting there in the summer.

Cleveland Clinic is a very good training program and has been training Rossies and other FMGs for many years. they produce some of the better trained medical students in the country and are more than happy to accept FMGs because they know they are well trained as well.

the OP is most likely a US grad - you get your pick of the litter when it comes to interviews unless you completely bombed your step, and even then you still get more shots than a comparable FMG does simply because you are a US grade...and you are complaining over a couple of spots you can't match and a couple hundred dollars you lost out on?

try not thinking about yourself for once and think about how its a lot tougher for others out there to get spots even though they are perfectly qualified for said position.

Truth of the matter is, US grads tend to get better spots, because we are, on average, trained better clinically. Ross rotations are hit or miss (I have a few friends in them). I know some who had some great clinical experiences and learned a lot on various rotations. Some who spent their entire IM rotation doing absolutely nothing for 3 months! Programs probably have a difficult time differentiating those who had good training vs. bad regardless of scores. I'm sure some Ross students become amazing physicians and I'll admit it can be a bad deal, but you all knew this when you decided to go down there.

On a separate note I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a 'US grads vs. IMG's'

 

[jdh71]

pre-match is gone after this year anyway

 

[surge55]

Truth of the matter is, US grads tend to get better spots, because we are, on average, trained better clinically. Ross rotations are hit or miss (I have a few friends in them). I know some who had some great clinical experiences and learned a lot on various rotations. Some who spent their entire IM rotation doing absolutely nothing for 3 months! Programs probably have a difficult time differentiating those who had good training vs. bad regardless of scores. I'm sure some Ross students become amazing physicians and I'll admit it can be a bad deal, but you all knew this when you decided to go down there.

On a separate note I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a 'US grads vs. IMG's'

fair enough; I had some good and some bad rotations, but frankly many of us FMG applicants aren't even graded on our experiences - we are looked at based on our scores and our scores are comparitively higher than US grads, on average.

but like I was saying, to rant about a program offering spots to what I'm sure they felt were well qualified applicants is a bit over the top considering said US applicant I'm sure had PLENTY of other interviews elsewhere unless that applicant didn't do well on the step, which is then of course his fault and not Cleveland Clinics fault.

 

[gutonc]

but like I was saying, to rant about a program offering spots to what I'm sure they felt were well qualified applicants is a bit over the top considering said US applicant I'm sure had PLENTY of other interviews elsewhere unless that applicant didn't do well on the step, which is then of course his fault and not Cleveland Clinics fault.

Actually, the OPs beef was not that they offered pre-matches per se, but that they had him come to the interview (i.e. spend his own money on flight/hotel) only to discover that they had pre-matched their spots. That's a legitimate complaint and bulls**t behavior by any program.

 

[surge55]

Actually, the OPs beef was not that they offered pre-matches per se, but that they had him come to the interview (i.e. spend his own money on flight/hotel) only to discover that they had pre-matched their spots. That's a legitimate complaint and bulls**t behavior by any program.

he interviewed in january but you don't know if they prematched the spots before then or after. i would think a program wouldn't even waste their time interviewing people when they are busy with other responsibilities if they had already prematched away their spots. nowhere in his post and noway can you know for sure they had already filled their spots before his january interview. his main complaint is he spent the money to go there (what amounts to a drop in the bucket to his overall tuition bill I'm sure) and didn't get to rank it but nowhere does he say where he was going to rank it - he very well could have wanted to rank it out of his top five for all we know.

my guess is by january they had at least one spot left - from some of my colleagues they were even offered prematches in late jan/early feb right before rank lists were finalized. its not unheard of to wait until th eend of the sesaon to offer a prematch.

look at it from their point of view - the cleveland clinic program is a solid program but only an affiliate of the ohio institution - they still want top notch talent to go there but may not necessarily be able to attract top US grad talent because they are gunning for the university spots. I'm sure after interviewing hundreds of applicants they came across three well qualified applicants with double 99's and some research experience and thought why risk going through the match and offered them the spots instead.

 

[Team Zissou]

 

[jdh71]

he interviewed in january but you don't know if they prematched the spots before then or after. i would think a program wouldn't even waste their time interviewing people when they are busy with other responsibilities if they had already prematched away their spots. nowhere in his post and noway can you know for sure they had already filled their spots before his january interview. his main complaint is he spent the money to go there (what amounts to a drop in the bucket to his overall tuition bill I'm sure) and didn't get to rank it but nowhere does he say where he was going to rank it - he very well could have wanted to rank it out of his top five for all we know.

my guess is by january they had at least one spot left - from some of my colleagues they were even offered prematches in late jan/early feb right before rank lists were finalized. its not unheard of to wait until th eend of the sesaon to offer a prematch.

look at it from their point of view - the cleveland clinic program is a solid program but only an affiliate of the ohio institution - they still want top notch talent to go there but may not necessarily be able to attract top US grad talent because they are gunning for the university spots. I'm sure after interviewing hundreds of applicants they came across three well qualified applicants with double 99's and some research experience and thought why risk going through the match and offered them the spots instead.

Yeah?

And you know what decent human beings do? Thy send an email to anyone still planning to interview they've filled their spots and they should not come.

Are your struggling with a cognitive deficit?

 

[TwoSandwiches]

we are looked at based on our scores and our scores are comparitively higher than US grads, on average.

is that true? if so, it's interesting.

 

[dfk228]

is that true? if so, it's interesting.

I'm not sure how you would tell this. The USMLE website publishes data about overall pass rates in past years, but not average scores or performance, at least that I could find. The fail rate is significantly higher for Non-US grads, so I would actually guess FMG and IMG's have a lower over all performance when averaged?

 

[asmith1121]

i

 

[surge55]

Yeah?

And you know what decent human beings do? Thy send an email to anyone still planning to interview they've filled their spots and they should not come.

Are your struggling with a cognitive deficit?

please reread what I said.

he said his interview was in january. he said later when going to rank (which would have been much later - mid feb?) the spots were filled.

so between his interview in january and when he went to rank the program, you don't think its feasible there was still a spot open after his interview but then prematched before he went to rank it? I said so in the post - programs can prematch quite late in the process - even in february if they want to. we have no way of knowing if that happened or not so we can't assume they were jerks and interviewed him for no reason.

 

[surge55]

is that true? if so, it's interesting.

I'm not sure how you would tell this. The USMLE website publishes data about overall pass rates in past years, but not average scores or performance, at least that I could find. The fail rate is significantly higher for Non-US grads, so I would actually guess FMG and IMG's have a lower over all performance when averaged?

well that is lumping all IMGs together. I meant at Ross we (at least from what I've heard) our overall scores are higher but agreed we do have a higher fail rate.

when taking the exam, we are usualy taking it off cycle compared to US grads so our scores are compared to US grads during the prior testing period. it even says so on our score reports and our scores tend to be a bit higher than the average.

 

[surge55]

It's so annoying that FMGs complain about having it so much harder. Well, you should have worked harder in college, for this very reason. Or not given up so easily. Plenty of people in my class did some kind of post-bac, or masters program. Further more, it's known that the caribbean schools tailor their curriculum to the usmle and get all the time they need to take step 1. You didn't have to learn every bs detail that some random phd wanted you to know...you learned what was relevant, to get your high step 1, which on rounds is obvious. We have to learn all this irrelevant basic science crap and get 4 weeks to study. We have multiple commitments in our schedule, not just step 1. I've seen FMGs at the hospital....they come in when they feel like from 9-12...that's their clinical rotation. PDs know this. We have to put in a days work plus study for shelf exams. The difference between an FMG and an AMG is time management skills which really go back to the college days. You guys are obsessed with the steps bc that's all you do, that's all you know, but there's more to medical school than that...multiple graded commitments that had to be balanced with no second chances. I think that FMGs from other countries that were doctors in their own country, obviously are not the same. They actually did a study that showed that patients did better under the care of foreign grads who were born and raised in another country and came here afterword, followed by us allopathic grads, followed by us citizen FMGs. It makes sense, if you have the drive to redo residency, you're probably a smart and motivated person. There are obviously exceptions to every rule. But your argument that we get better residencies "simply" bc we go to us medical schools, is an understatement! That is exactly why!! Bc we were able to get solid scores while managing all the bs tests and clinical experiences that started from day 1. Btw the average steps of a matched us applicant are 226/235, so don't kid yourself into thinking our scores are so low. Those scores are without a usmle driven curriculum. I think DOs really have it the hardest, taking both exams. From what I saw on the interview trail- I think DOs, don't get the credit they deserve. I think in their case, they have to have higher step scores when going for allo residencies, but I really feel that their scores are equal. They go through the same curriculum as us, with emphasis on a completely different test- comlex, and then they take the steps on their own. I think that is very admirable.

so many assumptions made in this post I don't even...

look, I am not against US grads. i enjoyed working with them and I am plenty jealous at the teaching and training US grads get compared to me, but to say we are lazy and do nothing but take steps is a huge overstatement and quite offensive.

at least at my school, we were taught by PhDs. while the 'usmle-driven curriculum' was there in essence (you can't tell me they don't teach some of that at US schools too...), we also had to learn all the minute details you say we didn't ahve to learn in order to pass and move on. our biochem book was written by a phd and we had to know a ridiculous amount of details about reactions and enzymes that we'd never need to learn ever again; our path book was more detailed than some residents even need to know - while at the same time students in OK get to learn out of Rapid Review by Dr Goljan which is what we reviewed from for the step. I also was at a school that would fail you (mostly in biochem, pharm and micro - again taught mostly by phd's) without blinking and make you repeat an entire semester even if you missed the cutoff by a couple of points.

not to mention - we don't have summer breaks and research opportunities compared to most US grads - we had 4 semesters (2 years of equivalent US school time) in 16 months. we have no time for the step until after all of this and before clinical rotations. note - we have to pass step 1 in order to do clinicals and nearly all of us take step 2 and pass it before US students do.

while we did have some bad clinical experiences, we have a LOT of good ones too, including at this 'BS program at Cleveland Clinic. we work just as hard at these rotations and learn quite a bit. while we don't have 'bs shelf exams', I feel like I would have appreciated that more as it would be good preparation for board exams...but i guess you don't feel that way.

 

[surge55]

also:

226/235 average? ok that's good but just five points over the mean (about 221/230 when i took them). while US grads get to do 'average' on the steps, we don't even get interviewed with those kinds of scores at university based programs and even more competitive community hospitals whereas US grads match at these spots with them.

I do hear you on DO's, but they also have access to DO residencies which we do not. that's a distinct advantage.

 

[officedepot]

.

 

[surge55]

getting an interview is more than just having a good step 1/2 score...

You need to realize that residency programs get state and federal funds. As such they have not only a moral but also a monetary obligation to train doctors who studied in the US and know the US system from the beginning and will definitely stay in the US but also stay in the state to meet the needs of the population. Also realize that the whole point of going to medical school in the US is to practice medicine and be trained in the US. Sure residency programs could fill their spots with only fmgs/imgs but that would be a total abandonment of the entire medical training system set up.

Finally if IMGs/FMGs were equal to US grads you would have absolutely no trouble getting interviews - and I can say with certainty they aren't equal. So there's obviously something beyond the funding obligations that residency programs are wary of...

I hear you. a lot of states need more docs and the best way is to train them locally. it is more likely that locally born students/residents will then practice in that area.

regarding the step score, I know there is a lot more to it than that; my point is, for an IMG to get an interview, our steps have to be top notch - it's how we are filtered in the system whereas it is not as big of a deal for US-Grads, ie they can have a much lower score and still get an interview. it's just how it is.

also, not all IMGs are created equal. while there are a lot of foreign born IMGs that apply (which impressive credentials, research experience, residency training, etc) there are also many US-born IMGs that go to Caribbean schools or elsewhere that also have impressive credentials (maybe not the research papers but the board scores and USCE are there) and are then interviewed where they grew up. like I said in the match thread, I was born in the midwest and got most of my interviews in that area (while getting none in GA where I did my rotations for example) and subsequently prematched within 200 miles of where I grew up.

 

[taco bell]

My step scores would be higher too if I had an infinite amount of time to take them...

I matched ophthalmology in Jan, and for personal reasons was actually interested in going to CCF. I hope with 3 new florida med schools set to graduate their first classes, that FMG's get weeded out of residency positions.

Also, my quarrel was regarding the prelim match. You hijacked this thread and made it into a FMG vs US graduate to argue for fmgs and categorical pre-matching.

"try not thinking about yourself for once and think about how its a lot tougher for others out there to get spots even though they are perfectly qualified for said position."

The before mentioned statement was uncalled for - no need to question my intentions. I dont know you but you sound like a pretty big tool.

 

[surge55]

My step scores would be higher too if I had an infinite amount of time to take them...

I matched ophthalmology in Jan, and for personal reasons was actually interested in going to CCF. I hope with 3 new florida med schools set to graduate their first classes, that FMG's get weeded out of residency positions.

Also, my quarrel was regarding the prelim match. You hijacked this thread and made it into a FMG vs US graduate to argue for fmgs and categorical pre-matching.

"try not thinking about yourself for once and think about how its a lot tougher for others out there to get spots even though they are perfectly qualified for said position."

The before mentioned statement was uncalled for - no need to question my intentions. I dont know you but you sound like a pretty big tool.

it was not in anyway my intention to hijack your thread or come off as some jerk.

you on the other hand, start a thread pissing on a program because you weren't able to rank them even though you are able to match in to ophtho and I'm sure could get just about any prelim spot you'd want (a long time ago, I wanted optho but being from Ross and not having 260+/260+ changed that; I ended up being more happy in IM anyway). on top of that, you still have yet to clarify how you would have ranked the program (you say you wanted it for 'personal reasons') and do not give a proper timeline between your jan interview and your attempt to rank. Like I've said numerous times in this thread - they could have easily handed out that final prematch to someone after your interview, which was your primary beef in your OP.

it's easy to see you are just mad at the FMG getting the prematch in the first place especially with those comments about how much time we get to study for the exam (which is not 'infinite', we do tend to take more time but not months and months longer than US grads who still get plenty of weeks and semester breaks to do so while we have no breaks in between semesters) or how you are hoping we get 'weeded out' when we are still needed to fill thousands of spots.

 

[taco bell]

Even if they extended a pre-match offer after I interviewed for a prelim spot does not change my impression of such program for interviewing "non-prematchable" candidates in the first place. They should not be advertising otherwise on their website and during the interview if their intentions were to pre-match. Just my thoughts

 

[taurus70]

There are 150 bazillion AMG versus IMG threads out there for perusal. You both have good points. To hammer all IMG's as being lazy is less than accurate. The can be some of the hardest working people or the worstHowever, to point out score reports ignores the point that the USMLE is an individual exam. Good students who work hard will get good scores. Lazy bums will tank it. There is a healthy mix of IMG/AMG in all specialties/fellowships at my program.

 

[asmith1121]

lll

 

[surge55]

Even if they extended a pre-match offer after I interviewed for a prelim spot does not change my impression of such program for interviewing "non-prematchable" candidates in the first place. They should not be advertising otherwise on their website and during the interview if their intentions were to pre-match. Just my thoughts

Not sure what you mean by this - I really feel programs try to get the best candidate possible for their residency. in the case of CCL in Flordia, they are not exactly a sexy program even though the training is very good. they are not Mass Gen, Yale, Hopkins or even their mothership in Cleveland. My guess is they take into account who they have matched there in the past in terms of US Grads vs IMGs and their credentials and determine whether or not they should snap up an IMG with great credentials vs trying their luck in the match and risking matching lower on their list and losing out on top candidates to the sexier programs as a result. I really honestly believe they are weighing their best options and I really seriously have doubts that they would waste time/money and interview folks for spots that didn't exist - like I said, my best guess is they prematched the last spot away AFTER you interviewed, not before.

I am sorry you didn't match there though. you do seem to feel strongly about it though even though you have yet to tell me where you would have ranked it had you had the opportunity. in the end, I'm sure you still matched into a solid program.

 

[surge55]

1. Surge55, you are so annoying, and I would hate to work with someone that has such a complex.
2. Your scores will never be the same as ours- ever, bc they're simply not the same. Even an extra 3 weeks to study is almost double the time. Think of what you were scoring at 4 weeks, that would have been your score. You're telling me you had three months for step 1 and you think that's suppose to weigh the same? I have a friend in my class who failed step 1 with a 182 after 4 weeks of studying. We got our scores 3 weeks later...she took another 4 weeks and got a 226. Just having that extra time made all the difference.
3. And I'm sorry but no summer break will ever help you score well- in fact, taking time off would probably hurt you, and that's probably why you're school is designed that way. So technically you want a research opportunity- study for a month and take your step and then arrange to do research elsewhere for the remaining 2-3 months. Problem solved. We wish we had that opportunity. FYI- we only get a summer break between the end of first year and beginning of second year. Most people don't know what they're going into at that point, so usually take a vacation.
4. If you don't want us to think this way of FMGs-stop complaining and getting defensive. No one said anything about FMGs, we were both upset bc we wanted to be in Florida for personal reasons, and the day I interviewed, they swore up and down that they didn't prematch. And for your information- there were highly competitive candidates in derm, rad/onc, Optho at that interview from all over the country.
5. Why did they prematch- likely bc they gave positions to people they know, it seemed like the same kind of people were coveted at that residency.
6I don't care about race- as I am a minority, but if you have your own personal agenda, don't waste our time!!!

paragraph breaks to help clear up some things...

1. it's not a complex really when there is plenty of truth to what my original post said. US grads have it much easier than FMGs in the match, it's just that simple. 96% of US grads matched this year. 96%! so only 4% didnt - what was wrong with them is what I'd like to know. usually if a US grad didn't match it's because something is wrong with them - failed the step or classes multiple times, applied to something totally unrealistic, etc. this means that FMGs filled up the rest of the spots at a ~48% clip. ie we don't match all that highly and never will.

2. that's just the point - we take more time because we have to. we can't sit there and just pass or just get average scores if we want to match into anything other than a community fam med program (fine programs in their own right, but if you have your sites set a little higher we HAVE to do well on the step). programs use one tool to screen us - Step scores. they use them to screen US Grads too but the cutoff is MUCH lower. it's just how it is. I know someone with very strong ties to their home program - a strong university based program. he worked there and knew everyone in the IM department very well, but didn't quite have the grades for their med school so they went to a Carib program. he interviewed for the IM program, had better scores than many of the programs' home med school students that were interviewing there, but they still weren't going to rank him high enough where he might match there because he didn't have 250+/250+ on his steps and other things. my point is, US grads can do average and match into just about anything whereas we have to get 99's to get anything competitive. that's why we study for 'so long' (roughly 2 months on average) vs the 3-8 weeks that US students get.

3. if we were able to get research opportunities as easily as US grads you bet we would...as part of our clinical rotations. they don't grow on trees for us though...so we make sure we do well on the steps and in other areas instead.

4. for all we know, they probably DIDNT prematch their last spot when you interviewed. like I've said repeatedly in this thread, they can offer a prematch right up until they submit their rank list. it makes no sense for them to waste time and money interviewing folks they have no interest in - odds are the US grads such as yourself looked great but they probably thought you weren't going to rank them as high as more prestigious programs.

5. well, did you try doing an away rotation there? that's how they 'know' those people. you could have also gone there and done the same but you didn't it sounds like. and if they are coveting the same kind of person, wouldn't that make you want to rank them lower? where would you have ranked them?

6. i apologize for seemingly derailing the thread, and I apologize that you did not match there (that said, I'm sure you still got a fine program in the match - odds are you are part of that 96% afterall). I dont' see what 'race' has to do with the thread - not all IMGs are from other countries you know...

 

[surge55]

There are 150 bazillion AMG versus IMG threads out there for perusal. You both have good points. To hammer all IMG's as being lazy is less than accurate. The can be some of the hardest working people or the worstHowever, to point out score reports ignores the point that the USMLE is an individual exam. Good students who work hard will get good scores. Lazy bums will tank it. There is a healthy mix of IMG/AMG in all specialties/fellowships at my program.

yes, I apologize for seemingly making this into this type of issue when it was not my intention. my point was that no matter how one person scores on it, it's weighed differently among US grads vs IMGs. it's just how it is, but frustrating nonetheless.

 

[asmith1121]

kdjf

 

[littlealex]

You're telling me you had three months for step 1 and you think that's suppose to weigh the same? I have a friend in my class who failed step 1 with a 182 after 4 weeks of studying. We got our scores 3 weeks later...she took another 4 weeks and got a 226. Just having that extra time made all the difference.

Dude calm down. Think about it, we all have 2 years to study. Sure, you get 4 weeks dedicated time, but what were you doing the first two years?

If you cannot be ready the day of the exam then there are no excuses. It's not like it's a surprise test. Don't hate on other people because they studied for longer and got higher scores. I rotated w/ IMGs w/ 270/270s and the truth is they were just better prepared and had more knowledge than me on the test date. Of course the scores are comparable. We both sat down and did the questions but he got it right and I didn't.


As for Surg, of course FMGs don't match at the same clip. The kids at Ross aren't exactly of the same caliber as the kids who went to a US MD school. Otherwise, you know, they wouldn't need to go to Ross. No one picks Ross over a US med school because the beaches are beautiful. You go because you have to and you work hard to try to come back. Even with a high Step1 score, FMGs are still a risk for residencies and no one wants to end up w/ a dud. US kids are safer bets.

 

[surge55]

Ok this is it bc I'm sick of your lack of comprehension.
If Caribbean schools had a set curriculum, with a standard 4 week timeline to step 1, then your scores would be weighed the same. Bc everyone knows you guys take longer- yes, you have to do better than avg. It's common sense that in a knowledge based test- more time= more knowledge= better score. As my friend proved- 40+ points in 4 weeks. It's not that you guys do better and then you get crappy residencies. Or that you are actually doing better for the same interview, PDs will just not consider you unless you have quality scores to balance out for the lack of standardization with American schools. And where there's a will, there's a way. I know two FMGs that matched plastics and neurosurgery. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and making yourself feel better with excuses. You guys are so complexed- every prelim interview I went to had categorical FMG applicants, and you guys would start with "you know bc I'm an FMG...I don't have a shot at the same residencies..."- of course, completely unsolicited, no one said anything to put you down, but you have to start with your crap defense mechanism. You treat being an FMG like its something you couldn't help...it's like you believe that you're saying.."I'm disabled and no one will give me a residency." - then we would feel bad, If you had some true disability. But your FMG- I'm at a disadvantage is like an AMG saying they got a 200 on step 1 and didn't match derm...who's fault is that? we're smart enough to know, if we don't get 250s, or even if we get 250s, we don't have a shot at Ortho/derm/ent, etc. It's life. It's like AMGs walk around feeling bad about themselves bc they didn't earn SDN scores, and FMGs walk around trying to get everyone to feel sorry for them bc they didn't get SDN scores. Grow up, time manage, and learn that your 220 is less than my 220, bc I took it with a deadline. Also I know people at some of the lesser known Caribbean schools who have manged to get research at major academic centers, simply by emailing an attending at the desired department. I'm assuming youve had everything handed to you your whole life and you don't know how to make things happen on your own.

wow.

of course your 220 is not equal to my 220. I never said my scores are or should be weighted the same as yours. I said we study more and for longer (on average) because we have to and thus get better scores. we HAVE to get higher scores to compete, that's just how it is. I don't see your point other than you are giving me a hard time because I am stating the obvious.

you keep generalizing everything like 'oh if you just work harder you will get blank'. sure, for every fmg that gets plastics, ENT, ortho, etc there are hundreds that aren't even interviewed for those spots because they are simply IMGs even when they have similar scores to those that did match. for every fmg you tell me that got research at major interviews by 'simply emailing a person in the dept', there are hundreds of us that do the same thing and get no bites. that friend I mentioned even tried getting just a rotation at the program where he used to work and couldn't simply because his school wasn't LCME accredited - not because he didn't have good grades or good steps, just because he was from Ross. so like I said, everyone that you name, I can come up with many more that just simply couldn't due to the numbers game. there are only so many opportunities out there and most are already taken by US grads - like I said numerous times before, it's just how it is. and for you to sit there on your high horse like 'how dare you complain' when you are on the other side of the fence doesn't really resonate. like I told the OP, try walking in someone else's shoes before you go after them.

 

[surge55]

Dude calm down. Think about it, we all have 2 years to study. Sure, you get 4 weeks dedicated time, but what were you doing the first two years?

If you cannot be ready the day of the exam then there are no excuses. It's not like it's a surprise test. Don't hate on other people because they studied for longer and got higher scores. I rotated w/ IMGs w/ 270/270s and the truth is they were just better prepared and had more knowledge than me on the test date. Of course the scores are comparable. We both sat down and did the questions but he got it right and I didn't.


As for Surg, of course FMGs don't match at the same clip. The kids at Ross aren't exactly of the same caliber as the kids who went to a US MD school. Otherwise, you know, they wouldn't need to go to Ross. No one picks Ross over a US med school because the beaches are beautiful. You go because you have to and you work hard to try to come back. Even with a high Step1 score, FMGs are still a risk for residencies and no one wants to end up w/ a dud. US kids are safer bets.

yes you are right. I didn't have the grades in college as I was working to support my family and didn't study enough to get straight A's like other candidates did. that's just how it goes. so yes I did go to Ross because US schools weren't even interviewing me.

of course, there are plenty of lazy bums at Ross and other schools like mine, but if they are lazy, good luck even making it to graduation. unlike some schools, Ross does a good job weeding them out. even if you miss the minimum passing score for a class by one point, you repeat the entire semester. and if you get anything lower than a high pass on a clinical rotation you have to (strongly encouraged anyway) to repeat it.

and you make a point about us being risks. that's why many of us also take (and do well on) step 2 ck and cs well before application season to make us look like less of a risk.