Christian med students: how do you reconcile your religion with your profession?

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What I gather from the happenings of this thread is as follows:

Frank is desperately trying to hold onto the beliefs he was indoctrinated with as a kid, perhaps to guard his sense of community and family ties that probably depend so deeply on such a faith.

My theory on the resurrection is as follows:

I have studied history a great deal. I remember that in many cases scratch marks were found in coffins. This was because the advanced medical technology that lets people know if someone is alive or dead didn't exist - no heart monitors, no EEGs, etc. I assume thus that mistakes were sometimes made as to whether someone was actually dead or not, and the evidence seems to corroborate with that (e.g. nail marks on coffins).

It is therefore my belief that maybe Jesus was presumed dead but actually wasn't. Perhaps he was just unconscious, came to 3 days later, and somehow got himself out of his tomb. This would have appeared to an untrained, uneducated eye as having been resurrected.

Another possibility would be that Jesus played dead so that they would take him off the cross, and then when he was buried he just escaped from his tomb.

There are so many possibilities that are somewhat plausible. The belief that the laws of nature could be put on hold or circumvented at random seems to be utterly nonsensical. In fact, having faith in general is a key indicator of the lack of critical thinking skills, the favouring of comfort over truth. Again, I cannot believe in God without feeling concurrently aware that I am deliberately fooling myself. The belief in something that 1) Goes against the laws of nature and 2) Does not have any concrete evidence to it is something I will never understand.

Nevertheless, those who have been responding to this post with irrelevant ad hominems are doing nothing to help bolster your point of view - in fact, it doesn't appear to me that they even have any purpose as they do not argue any point, rather vaguely say things like "This is why she didn't get into x school!" I'm not a person who likes hints all that much - this is not helping me understand whatsoever, rather, I think the purpose is to bully me above all else.

Moreover, nowhere in this thread have I EVER said that I would not be friends with someone because of differences in faith. These differences can be easily put aside and are by no means insurmountable. All I ever asked in this thread was HOW people reconcile their belief in the concept of faith with their scientific training and background. I NEVER said ANYTHING about having my nose stuck too high in the air to ever attempt to befriend those people. In fact, I have totally succeeded at befriending those people. A very small number of them know I am an agnostic and I told them only when they asked me directly. Also, to their credit, none of them have tried to convert me. My choice of friends has nothing to do with religious affiliation, and my friendships do not involve religious affiliation at all. It seems like people on this thread are looking for something about me to pick apart without any evidence that my lack of understanding of the concept of faith as shared on this board only is affecting how I am treating them in real life. In fact, my classmates who are lurking here (as I know at least one has done in the past) could probably confirm this.

I am therefore not posting these comments as a snob, rather as someone who is curious about learning about another world view that I can't seem to wrap my brain around. Is there anything wrong with that, and the fact that I see faith as inherently unscientific?

A final quote: "He who is wise is he who admits he knows nothing." - Socrates. I never once claimed to "know" anything. Everything I write are simply conjectures and possibilities. As a human being I feel I cannot and will not ever uncover the metaphysical truth if it exists, because I feel that it is by definition a realm beyond our grasp.

Yes, that belief on the resurrection is fairly close to my own (and I am not even religious). I tried to present that earlier, but...well, you've seen how the thread has been going lately. :shrug:
Don't worry; most people recognize that the person whose only argument is an insult is just not worth listening to.
(cue Frank quoting me to talk about how my only substantive arguments have been insults even though that's not even remotely true...and also to insult me)

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How could you dismiss my definition of faith when I was never speaking of a definition of faith?
I was responding to this statement:
On the other hand, let's say you left the box of cookies on a shelf and came back to see that all of the cookies have been eaten and large shoeprints approaching the box of cookies. Who ate the cookies? You can probably assume that it was your big brother, even though you would have to put some faith to believe that your little sister didn't frame him.
The point being that, the more evidence available, the less faith we ultimately need to have to believe a theory, but we can never completely extricate ourselves from a need for faith due to a lack of absolute truth.
which presents a scenario that does not actually require faith, but rather simply an assumption. You responded:
I am regarding faith (in the context of our discussion) as a belief in something without fully knowing that it is correct (therefore requiring faith in every and any belief due to an aforementioned lack of absolute truth). You are regarding faith as loyalty to a belief because of partiality.
Your statement implied that you do not see loyalty as a key component of faith, which is contrary to the definition of the word. You can verify this through a simple Google search if you wish:
Wikipedia said:
Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion or view
thefreedictionary said:
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
MerriamWebster said:
allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty. b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions. 2. a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God
These are not biased or cherrypicked...they are literally the first three results from Googling the word 'faith'.
when I reminded you how I was treating the Christian faith, you very prentiously replied that your usage was correct and mine was incorrect.
Yes, because your proposed treatment neglected one of the key aspects of the word.

Apparently you're saying that the type of faith I have in mind isn't faith at all; on the contrary, as Christians we have faith that Christ will return again but we also have evidence of his divinity via his well-documented thaumaturgy.
You see how you separated those two? You have FAITH that he will return, but the rest is not something that qualifies as faith. However, I do feel the need to point out that you have *anecdotes* of his divinity, not evidence. That doesn't mean he wasn't divine...just that you can't prove it.

I never said that I am never wrong; I just keep my mouth shut about topics of which I haven't the slightest iota of understanding,
Ah, if only this were true. You certainly act as if you think you are never wrong, in the sense that you seem incapable of updating your beliefs, admitting to errors, or having a rational discussion.
As far as amount of reading is concerned... Yes, I consider two chapter books a day quite a lot; the sort of books I have in mind include Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl and All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Maria Remarque . If that's not impressive than so be it.
It's not. All it means is that you spend a few hours reading rather than watching TV. AQotWF is a good book, though :thumbup:
 
I was responding to this statement: which presents a scenario that does not actually require faith, but rather simply an assumption. You responded:
Your statement implied that you do not see loyalty as a key component of faith, which is contrary to the definition of the word. You can verify this through a simple Google search if you wish:

And in order for your contention to be correct, you have faith that that assumption is true. You need greater faith to believe that some assumptions are true than others. You may disagree, but you are than disagreeing with the type of faith in question, and the Christian faith is certainly not the blind sort of faith posed in your question or the definition provided.


These are not biased or cherrypicked...they are literally the first three results from Googling the word 'faith'.
Yes, because your proposed treatment neglected one of the key aspects of the word.

I am not saying you cherry-picked your definition, but I specifically mentioned this issue very early in the thread; that is not the sort of faith non-nominal Christians believe in.

You see how you separated those two? You have FAITH that he will return, but the rest is not something that qualifies as faith. However, I do feel the need to point out that you have *anecdotes* of his divinity, not evidence. That doesn't mean he wasn't divine...just that you can't prove it.

I would say that the only difference between the two is levels of faith; we need far less faith to believe that Christ will return than we do to believe in his resurrection, but both require some level of faith. If it turns out that Christ didn't die on the cross than I would drop my Christian faith today!

Ah, if only this were true. You certainly act as if you think you are never wrong, in the sense that you seem incapable of updating your beliefs, admitting to errors, or having a rational discussion.

As I've read dozens of books on the topic of the historical evidence of Christ's life and Christology in general, I am fairly confident that what I'm saying is correct; I am amazed however that you would say that I'm incapable of having a rational discussion. More importantly, the sort of points you bring up never really seem to be worth updating my beliefs over or admitting to error; they are seemingly always de minimis and inconsequential.

It's not. All it means is that you spend a few hours reading rather than watching TV. AQotWF is a good book, though :thumbup:

I was simply saying that I read a lot; that is all.

Anyway, given my Fall classes have started and continuing on with this discussion will cut into that I can no longer afford the time to provide a long reply,
 
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And in order for your contention to be correct, you have faith that that assumption is true. You need greater faith to believe that some assumptions are true than others. You may disagree, but you are than disagreeing with the type of faith in question, and the Christian faith is certainly not the blind sort of faith posed in your question or the definition provided.
You are talking in so many circles I'm surprised you're not dizzy.

I am not saying you cherry-picked your definition, but I specifically mentioned this issue very early in the thread; that is not the sort of faith non-nominal Christians believe in.
And I am saying that since YOUR 'sort of faith' does not fit the definition of the word 'faith', it is not actually a sort of faith.

I would say that the only difference between the two is levels of faith; we need far less faith to believe that Christ will return than we do to believe in his resurrection, but both require some level of faith. If it turns out that Christ didn't die on the cross than I would drop my Christian faith today!
You again neglect the fact that the only reason you see the information you have as evidence of the resurrection is that you are already predisposed to believe that a resurrection is possible/happened DUE to your religious faith.
It's easy to say that you would stop being Christian if it were proven that Christ didn't die on the cross, because you know as well as I do that it would be impossible for us to prove that to be the case...what you refuse to admit is that your evidence also does not prove that the resurrection DID happen.

As I've read dozens of books on the topic of the historical evidence of Christ's life and Christology in general, I am fairly confident that what I'm saying is correct.
The facts you are stating may be correct; that does not make your conclusions valid. You have not in any way presented evidence proving that the resurrection happened...the evidence you have presented only works if you presuppose that resurrection is possible, and yet you refuse to admit that your conclusion is biased by your faith.

I was simply saying that I read a lot; that is all.
Good for you. Doesn't mean you're using your vocab appropriately.

Anyway, given my Fall classes have started and continuing on with this discussion will cut into that I can no longer afford the time to provide a long reply,
Good, thanks!
 
You are talking in so many circles I'm surprised you're not dizzy.

And I am saying that since YOUR 'sort of faith' does not fit the definition of the word 'faith', it is not actually a sort of faith.

You again neglect the fact that the only reason you see the information you have as evidence of the resurrection is that you are already predisposed to believe that a resurrection is possible/happened DUE to your religious faith.
It's easy to say that you would stop being Christian if it were proven that Christ didn't die on the cross, because you know as well as I do that it would be impossible for us to prove that to be the case...what you refuse to admit is that your evidence also does not prove that the resurrection DID happen.

The facts you are stating may be correct; that does not make your conclusions valid. You have not in any way presented evidence proving that the resurrection happened...the evidence you have presented only works if you presuppose that resurrection is possible, and yet you refuse to admit that your conclusion is biased by your faith.

Good for you. Doesn't mean you're using your vocab appropriately.

Good, thanks!

I've said at least 5 to 10 times now that the historical evidence does not prove that Christ rose from the dead. As far as my biases are concerned... I am not presupposing that resurrection is impossible or possible, because the very question in and of itself is whether or not Christ rose from the dead. By looking at the evidence impartially and objectively the most likely answer to that problem is yes. You may disagree that I've provided evidence for Christ's resurrection, but that is because you don't know the difference between historical evidence and scientific evidence, just like you don't know the context in which my "obscure" terminology is applied and just like you still haven't understood the sort of faith defined by St. Peter and believed by Christians even after I've quoted his very words. And no, I do not need absolute proof that Christ didn't die on the cross to believe it, but only strong historical evidence.
 
I've said at least 5 to 10 times now that the historical evidence does not prove that Christ rose from the dead. As far as my biases are concerned... I am not presupposing that resurrection is impossible or possible, because the very question in and of itself is whether or not Christ rose from the dead. By looking at the evidence impartially and objectively the most likely answer to that problem is yes. You may disagree that I've provided evidence for Christ's resurrection, but that is because you don't know the difference between historical evidence and scientific evidence, just like you don't know the context in which my "obscure" terminology is applied and just like you still haven't understood the sort of faith defined by St. Peter and believed by Christians even after I've quoted his very words. And no, I do not need absolute proof that Christ didn't die on the cross to believe it, but only strong historical evidence.

You don't HAVE strong evidence. Repeating something 5 to 10 times doesn't make it better. And yes, you ARE starting from the premise that Christ was resurrected (or at least that resurrection is possible), otherwise the evidence you have thus far would not lead you to resurrection. You said it yourself earlier: the reason I do not come to the conclusion that resurrection happened is because it is unlikely to occur as a random event (seeing that it is, you know, pretty much considered impossible by our current observations of the universe)...but you don't believe it is random (because it was an act of God) and therefore it is a possible explanation for you. That right there is an instance where your presupposition of the existence of God influenced your conclusion.

I know the context in which you were attempting to use your obscure terminology; I read what you wrote. My statement was that the words you used did not work well with the ways you were attempting to use them.

Furthermore, I understand the type of 'faith' you keep going on about...it just doesn't qualify as faith by the actual definition of the word. Side note: you might want to watch your phrasing on this...if you 'require strong historical evidence' in order to believe in God, then you aren't really religiously faithful (you're just a bad historian/scientist).
 
You don't HAVE strong evidence. Repeating something 5 to 10 times doesn't make it better. And yes, you ARE starting from the premise that Christ was resurrected (or at least that resurrection is possible), otherwise the evidence you have thus far would not lead you to resurrection. You said it yourself earlier: the reason I do not come to the conclusion that resurrection happened is because it is unlikely to occur as a random event (seeing that it is, you know, pretty much considered impossible by our current observations of the universe)...but you don't believe it is random (because it was an act of God) and therefore it is a possible explanation for you. That right there is an instance where your presupposition of the existence of God influenced your conclusion.

I know the context in which you were attempting to use your obscure terminology; I read what you wrote. My statement was that the words you used did not work well with the ways you were attempting to use them.

Furthermore, I understand the type of 'faith' you keep going on about...it just doesn't qualify as faith by the actual definition of the word. Side note: you might want to watch your phrasing on this...if you 'require strong historical evidence' in order to believe in God, then you aren't really religiously faithful (you're just a bad historian/scientist).

Child, learn from your mistakes. :smack:
 
I don't understand how someone can be so completely clueless and ignorant, and yet so smug in his nonsense..... :confused:
 
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Well, the take home message I've gotten from what I've read of this thread is that it's not a problem for most Christians to reconcile their religion with medicine. They're already so used to reconciling all kinds of crazy ideas with reality that when it comes to reconciling their religion with medicine it's not a big deal.
 
Well, the take home message I've gotten from what I've read of this thread is that it's not a problem for most Christians to reconcile their religion with medicine. They're already so used to reconciling all kinds of crazy ideas with reality that when it comes to reconciling their religion with medicine it's not a big deal.

This is why I wanted Frankenstein to stuff it. He writes off anything I say by simply dubbing me a liar in a very interesting combination of straw man and ad hominem; spun together in a slurry which he then flings at anyone wildly like the simian he is... :smack:

But then I am the liar who is hurting the argument and hurting outsiders' perception of this faith... in spite of the first hand evidence here that people don't respond to his logic. But hey, pretty sure Jesus said "tis better to brow beat an unbeliever than to evangelize, YOLO" (Luke 4:576) :rolleyes:. The kid doesn't understand the concept nor the problem with preaching to the choir but that's the route he takes here. Its unfortunate that he has such a well developed historical understanding of the religion but lacks a contextual understanding of it and seems to have missed the high points entirely. The Pharisees were the same way... which brings me back to all the irony involved here.
 
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This is why I wanted Frankenstein to stuff it. He writes off anything I say by simply dubbing me a liar in a very interesting combination of straw man and ad hominem; spun together in a slurry which he then flings at anyone wildly like the simian he is... :smack:

But then I am the liar who is hurting the argument and hurting outsiders' perception of this faith... in spite of the first hand evidence here that people don't respond to his logic. But hey, pretty sure Jesus said "tis better to brow beat an unbeliever than to evangelize, YOLO" (Luke 4:576) :rolleyes:. The kid doesn't understand the concept nor the problem with preaching to the choir but that's the route he takes here. Its unfortunate that he has such a well developed historical understanding of the religion but lacks a contextual understanding of it and seems to have missed the high points entirely. The Pharisees were the same way... which brings me back to all the irony involved here.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
Guy u gais! you can tell he's not mad bc of all of the smileys.
 
4 things to consider

1) Belief in a god does not have to mean you believe in a religion

2) There is not a single bit of proof or evidence for the existence of any god

3) Not only is there no proof to support any religion, there is a mountain of evidence against it (contradictions, logical errors, things that go against common sense)

4) Someone who's a person of science (as we ALL are), should be familiar with what a hypothesis and a theory is and that EVIDENCE is needed. A lack of evidence (let alone evidence that shows the contrary) should quickly dismiss the notion of a god (let alone a religion) from the minds of people of science.
 
4 things to consider

1) Belief in a god does not have to mean you believe in a religion

2) There is not a single bit of proof or evidence for the existence of any god

3) Not only is there no proof to support any religion, there is a mountain of evidence against it (contradictions, logical errors, things that go against common sense)

4) Someone who's a person of science (as we ALL are), should be familiar with what a hypothesis and a theory is and that EVIDENCE is needed. A lack of evidence (let alone evidence that shows the contrary) should quickly dismiss the notion of a god (let alone a religion) from the minds of people of science.

You're conveniently ignoring the part where religion actively demands faith rather than knowledge.

Honestly, if someone came up to me with hard, reproducible evidence of the existence of a higher power, I would believe in god...but I still would not consider myself religious. The fact that I require evidence for my belief means that I do not have faith, which I have always considered a vital aspect of religion.

This is also why, even as an atheist, I despise "there is no proof of God's existence" as an anti-religious argument: it almost willfully ignores the fact that most religious people do not attempt to claim that there is proof. The conversation devolves into one group chanting "I believe xyz despite the lack of proof" and the other party screaming "But look! There is no proof and so your belief is invalid!" Occasionally someone gets defensive and starts trying to prove God's existence, which is always amusing for people on both sides of the aisle, but at the end of the day everyone walks away shaking their head because no one is listening to them.
 
*sigh*
Comcast is still the devil.
Sorry for the dp.
 
You're conveniently ignoring the part where religion actively demands faith rather than knowledge.

Honestly, if someone came up to me with hard, reproducible evidence of the existence of a higher power, I would believe in god...but I still would not consider myself religious. The fact that I require evidence for my belief means that I do not have faith, which I have always considered a vital aspect of religion.

This is also why, even as an atheist, I despise "there is no proof of God's existence" as an anti-religious argument: it almost willfully ignores the fact that most religious people do not attempt to claim that there is proof. The conversation devolves into one group chanting "I believe xyz despite the lack of proof" and the other party screaming "But look! There is no proof and so your belief is invalid!" Occasionally someone gets defensive and starts trying to prove God's existence, which is always amusing for people on both sides of the aisle, but at the end of the day everyone walks away shaking their head because no one is listening to them.

Yea.. and blind faith is simply insanity. To believe in a fairytale using "faith" is simply a disgrace to human intelligence.
 
Yea.. and blind faith is simply insanity. To believe in a fairytale using "faith" is simply a disgrace to human intelligence.

No intellectual religious person would admit that they have blind faith in all matters of their religion, though. One must have a position on their belief in God, whether atheist, agnostic, monotheist, or polytheist. I know you assume that the default is atheist (are babies atheist?), but I don't view it that way. I have evidence for my beliefs, so I don't have "blind faith". You can't prove science either, but no one says you have "blind faith" for subscribing to it as a method of determining truth. Faith mainly comes into play when someone already accepts some of the tenets of their religion. It's similar to trusting your best friend after spending 10 years of your life around them. If they tell you that they can't go to class because they're sick, you have "faith" that they're not lying to you. Once one believes in the existence of God (whether you attained this belief through "blind faith" or logic/empiricism), one can conclude certain things about the world without having all the details and "facts".

In regard to mehc's comment about religion requiring a lack of proof, I am hesitant to offer a proof of God's existence not so much because religion has demanded it, but instead because the scientist in me is wary of a "proof" of anything.
 
In regard to mehc's comment about religion requiring a lack of proof, I am hesitant to offer a proof of God's existence not so much because religion has demanded it, but instead because the scientist in me is wary of a "proof" of anything.

:rolleyes: Fine. If someone were to show me reproducible evidence which demonstrated that the world is more likely to contain a higher power than not, I would begin to believe in God...and yet I would not consider myself religious. I would just consider myself better informed.
 
Just ignore the atheists.

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Psalms 14:1

They are lost to the devil.
 
Just ignore the atheists.

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Psalms 14:1

They are lost to the devil.

Methinks someone misread the thread title :rolleyes:

So, and this is actually a curious question, what about those who have never heard of God, or those too young to consciously accept God into their hearts? I have had people tell me before that those populations are damned. Your particular quote is now making me wonder what abominable works all of the poor 1yr olds have committed.
 
Just ignore the atheists.

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Psalms 14:1

They are lost to the devil.

Cool. You take all the virginal twits pedophiles hypocrites terrorists and fanatics who copped a plea for Jesus or took a final plane ride for Allah. For an eternity.

And we'll take everybody who likes art music fun sex comedy irony female orgasms and rebellion and who wouldn't trade any of it for an eternal celestial dictator.

Hey, look at that. We agree. Done deal.
 
That kind of makes me wonder about this whole conception of heaven and hell. I mean, even if we take the word of the one guy who was up (up?, why up....cosmologically speaking that is just away from the earth's center of gravity. If I score a touchdown and don't point up to thank the supreme one for his gracing me with 4 flat 40 .... Nvm) there with his dad and would presumably know what the accommodations were like, they seem pretty vague about a place of eternal habitation. Don't you think there should be a little more space in the scripture for describing the whole deal. Sell me a little bit of something. Does heaven have some Yelp entries or something help me out here....

All I can say is wherever these fanatical *****s are trying to get to I would just like to take two quiet steps back and move inconspicuously in the opposite direction in the whole afterlife game that is.

Like how about a lounge with the best coffee in the known universe. All the party favors you care for. An eternity to master every single musical instrument known. Round the clock stand up. Concerts. Philosophical conversations.

I think we as atheists have not done a good job describing an afterlife suitable to us. Just for comparison to the other hypothetical products on the market.
 
No intellectual religious person would admit that they have blind faith in all matters of their religion, though. One must have a position on their belief in God, whether atheist, agnostic, monotheist, or polytheist. I know you assume that the default is atheist (are babies atheist?), but I don't view it that way. I have evidence for my beliefs, so I don't have "blind faith". You can't prove science either, but no one says you have "blind faith" for subscribing to it as a method of determining truth. Faith mainly comes into play when someone already accepts some of the tenets of their religion. It's similar to trusting your best friend after spending 10 years of your life around them. If they tell you that they can't go to class because they're sick, you have "faith" that they're not lying to you. Once one believes in the existence of God (whether you attained this belief through "blind faith" or logic/empiricism), one can conclude certain things about the world without having all the details and "facts".

In regard to mehc's comment about religion requiring a lack of proof, I am hesitant to offer a proof of God's existence not so much because religion has demanded it, but instead because the scientist in me is wary of a "proof" of anything.


Lettuce see your "proof" of this so called god.

:laugh:

Religion and god is the complete opposite of anything logical.
 
Lettuce see your "proof" of this so called god.

:laugh:

Religion and god is the complete opposite of anything logical.

As I said, I don't have a "proof", only an argument that convinces me. Part of it is a negative belief in atheism, and the other part is a positive belief in Christianity. If I were not to believe in God (or some other supernatural force), then nihilism logically follows. We are just the sum of molecules that obey natural principles and control our every thought and action. Any choice of our own is a deception. If that is "true", then we can't have morality, we can't have rational thought, and we can't have truth (truth is just your particles in your head telling you that something is true, you have no guarantee whether it is true or not, your "rational" deduction and logic were controlled from the outset). Thus, I have rejected naturalism via a modified Pascal's Wager, so I choose to believe in the supernatural. Isn't Pascal's Wager easily disproven? In this form, it is akin to deciding that I don't live in the matrix--something on which most of us can agree. The second part of my argument follows from history: Jesus' historical existence, historical scholars, a religion formed by martyrs, and so on. This side is more complex of course, and I don't feel the need to flesh it out more than we have already seen in this thread.

There's my "proof". I have proven nothing more than Hercule Poirot does when he analyzes "the psychologies". It's an argument based on my personal experience of existence and the axioms I am willing to accept. Maybe quite a few belief systems are logically flawed, but I think the majority of differences comes from the beginning principles (somewhat similar to what mehc has been saying ;))
 
That kind of makes me wonder about this whole conception of heaven and hell. I mean, even if we take the word of the one guy who was up (up?, why up....cosmologically speaking that is just away from the earth's center of gravity. If I score a touchdown and don't point up to thank the supreme one for his gracing me with 4 flat 40 .... Nvm) there with his dad and would presumably know what the accommodations were like, they seem pretty vague about a place of eternal habitation. Don't you think there should be a little more space in the scripture for describing the whole deal. Sell me a little bit of something. Does heaven have some Yelp entries or something help me out here....

All I can say is wherever these fanatical *****s are trying to get to I would just like to take two quiet steps back and move inconspicuously in the opposite direction in the whole afterlife game that is.

Like how about a lounge with the best coffee in the known universe. All the party favors you care for. An eternity to master every single musical instrument known. Round the clock stand up. Concerts. Philosophical conversations.

I think we as atheists have not done a good job describing an afterlife suitable to us. Just for comparison to the other hypothetical products on the market.

A lot of people are confused about heaven (Christian heaven). "Heaven is being with your best friend all day and just enjoying his presence" is a fair analogy. Since Christians believe God is the source of all goodness, all those good feelings you have are present in heaven. It's about feeling utterly content and loving towards others. My friends like to tell me that all of their friends won't be there, and I tell them that the reason they like being around their friends is because of their love for their friends and the sense of community, all of which is present in heaven.

mehc said:
So, and this is actually a curious question, what about those who have never heard of God, or those too young to consciously accept God into their hearts? I have had people tell me before that those populations are damned. Your particular quote is now making me wonder what abominable works all of the poor 1yr olds have committed.

I agree that those words should be more carefully analyzed. I reasonably hope that all can be saved. Also, babies aren't atheists--they can't understand the proposition "There is no God" or "There is a God", hence the age of reason. Babies don't believe in the Coulomb force either.
 
A lot of people are confused about heaven (Christian heaven). "Heaven is being with your best friend all day and just enjoying his presence" is a fair analogy. Since Christians believe God is the source of all goodness, all those good feelings you have are present in heaven. It's about feeling utterly content and loving towards others. My friends like to tell me that all of their friends won't be there, and I tell them that the reason they like being around their friends is because of their love for their friends and the sense of community, all of which is present in heaven.



I agree that those words should be more carefully analyzed. I reasonably hope that all can be saved. Also, babies aren't atheists--they can't understand the proposition "There is no God" or "There is a God", hence the age of reason. Babies don't believe in the Coulomb force either.

So. All of the good feelings I can imagine. Cause, here's the thing, and I mean this without cynicism or sarcasm, I kind of can't see an eternity that doesn't involve women with big booties. At least, some of the time. And I didn't see mention of that anywhere around the church scene. Best friends are awesome and everything but.....

Also we get only one review of the accommodations in hell. By a somewhat vindictive and uptight cosmic travel writer, I might add. Is there anyway we might get the devil's perspective on hell. Maybe the lake of fire is just to ward off the evil @ssholes that didn't make it into your place.

These questions haven't left me since childhood. Having gotten kicked out of bible school for asking them, it seems rather impossible to go back now. Not that it would suit me anyway. Praising for an eternity. I totally get why lucifer said "f@ck this, I'm out!"

I hope you get there and that it is all you thought it would be. As for me, I think too much is made of the cowardly Pascal's wager notion for lost souls. I'd rather go it on my own as a bodiless inanimate being. Exploring all the worlds of the cosmos.
 
We only think there's psychological pleasure (emotions) and physical pleasure (sex). Christians believe in the existence of another "organ" called the spirit. There's the Holy Spirit and the human spirit. They believe that the triune God became man to die not only for our sins and the sin nature but also to become the metaphysical Holy Spirit so that as the Holy Spirit, or the triune God, would enter man's human spirit. That's how they can say God lives in me. The whole purpose of their human life on this earth is for that Holy Spirit in their human spirit to sort of permeate into their soul and ultimately their physical body. It's a transformation where their sinful soul that enjoys earthly pleasures like fornication dies and is replaced with Christ's nature. Now back to the pleasure thing. Naturally, you've only experienced the physical and psychological pleasure and are biased to seek out only those two pleasures, just out of pure ignorance of the third form of pleasure in the spirit. I know this all sounds weird because the spirit isn't a well-defined "organ" studied with science.

So what is heaven? It's not a physical place as described literally in Revelations. You can't take the book of Revelations literally because the entire Bible preaches against materialism yet heaven is described as having pearly gates, gold, and precious stones. I think people spend 1,000 years (jubilee) in heaven enjoying God via their spirit (basically pleasure via the spiritual "organ") and reigning for eternity.

Lucifer fell because he was proud and believed he, a creation of God, was higher than his Creator.

Someone mentioned something about the Catholic church and pedophilia. Well, I'm pretty sure that God hates the Catholic church structure with deacons ruling over the laity (Revelations 2:6). It's absolutely weird that the Catholic church would prevent priests from marrying when God clearly alludes to the relationship of man and woman as a relationship between God and his church.

Yeah, I don't believe in human beings having a spirit. I understand the concept but it sounds like a load of made-up BS.

Having Lucifer fall because he believed he was higher than his creator seems like a story a man would tell his slaves in the 1800s.

Finally, I'd hate to go to heaven or see the coming of the Christ. Seems to me that Christians think that it would be the best day ever and/or heaven is where everyone rejoices forever, but for me, it sounds more like a Brave New World. Where the mere presence of God and Jesus is analogous to making everyone high on soma all the time. Ew.
 
We only think there's psychological pleasure (emotions) and physical pleasure (sex). Christians believe in the existence of another "organ" called the spirit. There's the Holy Spirit and the human spirit. They believe that the triune God became man to die not only for our sins and the sin nature but also to become the metaphysical Holy Spirit so that as the Holy Spirit, or the triune God, would enter man's human spirit. That's how they can say God lives in me. The whole purpose of their human life on this earth is for that Holy Spirit in their human spirit to sort of permeate into their soul and ultimately their physical body. It's a transformation where their sinful soul that enjoys earthly pleasures like fornication dies and is replaced with Christ's nature. Now back to the pleasure thing. Naturally, you've only experienced the physical and psychological pleasure and are biased to seek out only those two pleasures, just out of pure ignorance of the third form of pleasure in the spirit. I know this all sounds weird because the spirit isn't a well-defined "organ" studied with science.

So what is heaven? It's not a physical place as described literally in Revelations. You can't take the book of Revelations literally because the entire Bible preaches against materialism yet heaven is described as having pearly gates, gold, and precious stones. I think people spend 1,000 years (jubilee) in heaven enjoying God via their spirit (basically pleasure via the spiritual "organ") and reigning for eternity.

Lucifer fell because he was proud and believed he, a creation of God, was higher than his Creator.

Someone mentioned something about the Catholic church and pedophilia. Well, I'm pretty sure that God hates the Catholic church structure with deacons ruling over the laity (Revelations 2:6). It's absolutely weird that the Catholic church would prevent priests from marrying when God clearly alludes to the relationship of man and woman as a relationship between God and his church.

Well that's what you call the spirit. I'm insisting you must be tone def to the exaltation of how a nice round booty on a pretty woman feels.:laugh:

Seriously if your description of the spirit is accurate then it all sounds rather predetermined and boring. I'll take mine independent and adventurous. And yes equal to your god. If that's proud, banish me, but I'll already be in the relieved company of lucifers throughout time. So I can't say your banishment sounds much like a punishment.

I guess we'll have to go our separate way across the river Styx. How about while we're here together on earth let's not try to coerce each other into the opposite view point. It may be our last time together for eternity after all. How about we try to create secular republics where we can all pursue these things independently and free of each other's influence. How about that?
 
A lot of people are confused about heaven (Christian heaven). "Heaven is being with your best friend all day and just enjoying his presence" is a fair analogy. Since Christians believe God is the source of all goodness, all those good feelings you have are present in heaven. It's about feeling utterly content and loving towards others. My friends like to tell me that all of their friends won't be there, and I tell them that the reason they like being around their friends is because of their love for their friends and the sense of community, all of which is present in heaven.



I agree that those words should be more carefully analyzed. I reasonably hope that all can be saved. Also, babies aren't atheists--they can't understand the proposition "There is no God" or "There is a God", hence the age of reason. Babies don't believe in the Coulomb force either.

Yes, but the Coulomb force doesn't demand love to work.

If the criteria for being a good person/getting into heaven includes "knowing of and loving God", then those too young to understand, or those raised away from Christianity, are inherently screwed. Someone who dies before they are able to accept God into their heart, or who is raised by kind, loving non-Christian parents...well, sucks to be them, I guess. And that bugs me. It just always seemed so...needy...to me. It prioritizes 'giving Me credit" over "not being a terrible person". It also sort of demands/justifies evangelicism, which is to me one of the worst things someone can do with their religious beliefs.
 
Yes, but the Coulomb force doesn't demand love to work.

If the criteria for being a good person/getting into heaven includes "knowing of and loving God", then those too young to understand, or those raised away from Christianity, are inherently screwed. Someone who dies before they are able to accept God into their heart, or who is raised by kind, loving non-Christian parents...well, sucks to be them, I guess. And that bugs me. It just always seemed so...needy...to me. It prioritizes 'giving Me credit" over "not being a terrible person". It also sort of demands/justifies evangelicism, which is to me one of the worst things someone can do with their religious beliefs.

Those within the body of the church are saved. This includes those who make an effort to know truth and haven't been given a chance to reject salvation. No one is sent to hell, they choose it. If someone decides that they prefer killing others, stealing, and other society destructive actions to peace, love, and community, they are given that. Lucifer is called the great divider. By choosing to engage in activities that divide us, we are deciding that we don't want to live forever with God and the heavenly community.

Someone mentioned something about the Catholic church and pedophilia. Well, I'm pretty sure that God hates the Catholic church structure with deacons ruling over the laity (Revelations 2:6). It's absolutely weird that the Catholic church would prevent priests from marrying when God clearly alludes to the relationship of man and woman as a relationship between God and his church.
Priests are not prevented from marrying--they just can't remain priests in the roman rite. They freely chose to join a society that has the discipline of celibacy (not a doctrine). St. Paul wrote "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion".
 
I'm agnostic, but sure?

Well stop cross dressing then. I am aware enough of Christian theology that I don't need an academic explanation of it. I rather wanted someone who longs for it's rewards to describe to me how they could long for something vague and rather dull sounding.

You just reminded me why this is tiresome and tedious. Even agnostics are liberal white knights for sympathies toward the religious. As if eternal bliss while we burn isn't enough. We have to seriously humor them here.
 
Those within the body of the church are saved. This includes those who make an effort to know truth and haven't been given a chance to reject salvation. No one is sent to hell, they choose it. If someone decides that they prefer killing others, stealing, and other society destructive actions to peace, love, and community, they are given that. Lucifer is called the great divider. By choosing to engage in activities that divide us, we are deciding that we don't want to live forever with God and the heavenly community. .

So the best way to get into heaven is to never speak to a Christian so that you never have a chance to reject salvation? :smuggrin:

You have changed your message. Your first stated that all people who do not believe in God have committed abominable acts and are terrible people. Your current stance is that all people who commit terrible acts are choosing to go to hell. Those are not equivalent at all. It was the first that I was objecting to.

I have my own personal objections to the second, but they inconsequential, as they are about how it affects me personally (aka I'm with Nas and don't particularly want to live forever with God or heavenly people...but I also don't fancy living with serial killers and rapists, so I'm kinda screwed). Your FIRST statement I objected to on pretty much every level possible.
 
Well stop cross dressing then. I am aware enough of Christian theology that I don't need an academic explanation of it. I rather wanted someone who longs for it's rewards to describe to me how they could long for something vague and rather dull sounding.

You just reminded me why this is tiresome and tedious. Even agnostics are liberal white knights for sympathies toward the religious. As if eternal bliss while we burn isn't enough. We have to seriously humor them here.

Nah, I'm with you here. I cannot fathom wanting Heaven in any of the forms it has ever yet been described to me. It sounds dull. God sounds like someone I would not enjoy hanging out with (you know that awkward person at the party who is nice but really full of themselves for being that nice and also makes you feel like a terrible person all the time?) Most of the people I've heard discussing Heaven sound like people I don't want to hang with. Many enjoyable activities are banned in Heaven, which sounds meh. Plus, it would feel like being judged ALL the time.

Besides, I have a similar stance on Heaven as I do on marriage: there are some really good people who are ostensibly not allowed to participate, and so I don't want to participate myself. I know it's unfair...just because I happen to fall in the lucky group doesn't mean I should partake when I know others who are just as deserving cannot.

This next part is extra-blasphemous AND extra-off-topic, so read at your own risk...

But, of course, this is just one of the many areas where I will never get a satisfactory discussion with a believer (it's not fair to ask them, really)...just as they will never be able to clarify why exactly I'm supposed to be impressed that someone who KNEW about God's existence, with no room for doubt, chose to die knowing that daddy would save him. Like, OK, he had a ****ty 4-5 days (I don't remember how long crucifixion takes, sorry). There have been plenty of people throughout history who had ****ty 4-5 day patches, why is this particular instance SO WONDERFUL that it's still being talked about thousands of years later? I mean, Sam and Dean Winchester both went to hell for far longer to save humanity (or even just family), and they didn't even get to tell the world about it. Maybe if the dude had stayed in hell I would be impressed.
 
You have changed your message. Your first stated that all people who do not believe in God have committed abominable acts and are terrible people. Your current stance is that all people who commit terrible acts are choosing to go to hell. Those are not equivalent at all. It was the first that I was objecting to.
I don't remember saying the first. Can you link to it, so I can change it? (Just call me Mitt) :p

mehc said:
Super secret hidden massage
Would you die for some ants? Would you allow yourself to become an ant and be scorched by a magnifying glass? It's unimaginable that a superior being would lower itself and endure the torment common to a lower being. Not only was it physical torment, but also Christians believe there was a spiritual aspect to it (taking on the sin of the world).
 
I don't remember saying the first. Can you link to it, so I can change it? (Just call me Mitt) :p


Would you die for some ants? Would you allow yourself to become an ant and be scorched by a magnifying glass? It's unimaginable that a superior being would lower itself and endure the torment common to a lower being. Not only was it physical torment, but also Christians believe there was a spiritual aspect to it (taking on the sin of the world).

Sorry, it was actually Alkali whose post I was initially responding to. My bad. I've got no beef with your system other than that I have no desire to participate or believe in it. I DID desire clarification on the version he posted, because it's quite similar to discussions I have had with others before and some of the conclusions are depressing. I understand that not everyone shares the version which he posted...but some people definitely do, and I always find that a fascinating discussion, even though it makes me sad.

Lol, I don't remember giving you a super secret hidden massage! :eek:

Fair enough; that makes it a bit more sensible...however, it also makes me 80 bajillion times LESS enthused to go chill with God and JHC...sorry, I don't really want to spend eternity having to suck up to people who view me as an ant. But that's OK, because as you said it's a choice and therefore it should be fine for me to make mine.
 
So how did this go down more or less. The taking on the sins of the world. God had to transmute the soul of his son--does he have a divine mother?--into his sperm and through the imperforate hymen of Mary who by all the best historical accounts was mother to a large brood and part of a large clan. Or just transplant the embryo. Being an advanced being by 1st century technological standards. Was Jesus aware he was the son of god while he biding his time in the womb. To present--ta-dahhhh!--himself as a miracle. What did his brothers think, conveniently diminished and erased from history by Paul and others unknown to the clan of Jesus. This is fantastical stuff. Marvel would be proud.

And all that to which I say no thanks. I'm responsible for my own actions. I don't need the crucifixion of some poor Jew to allieve me of my own conscience. To mean that I can molest children but if I repent and accept him into my heart all can be well again.

That's an insane doctrine.

Is there an afterlife for people who don't like any of this nonsense or is it really the hell your books depict. Tell me where I'm bound for an eternity for saying to hell with god. I'd like to hear the real fundamentalism in your doctrines for a change outside of all this modern extra textural capitulations and compromising in the public sphere while you know the basic tenets are there in bold face. Lies if you're asking me.

Am I destined for hell?
 
So how did this go down more or less. The taking on the sins of the world. God had to transmute the soul of his son--does he have a divine mother?--into his sperm and through the imperforate hymen of Mary who by all the best historical accounts was mother to a large brood and part of a large clan. Or just transplant the embryo. Being an advanced being by 1st century technological standards. Was Jesus aware he was the son of god while he biding his time in the womb. To present--ta-dahhhh!--himself as a miracle. What did his brothers think, conveniently diminished and erased from history by Paul and others unknown to the clan of Jesus. This is fantastical stuff. Marvel would be proud.

And all that to which I say no thanks. I'm responsible for my own actions. I don't need the crucifixion of some poor Jew to allieve me of my own conscience. To mean that I can molest children but if I repent and accept him into my heart all can be well again.

That's an insane doctrine.

Is there an afterlife for people who don't like any of this nonsense or is it really the hell your books depict. Tell me where I'm bound for an eternity for saying to hell with god. I'd like to hear the real fundamentalism in your doctrines for a change outside of all this modern extra textural capitulations and compromising in the public sphere while you know the basic tenets are there in bold face. Lies if you're asking me.

Am I destined for hell?

Well, I think most people atheist or otherwise believe in forgiving others to an extent. Your little brother pulled your hair as a child, but now he's more mature and has come to a realization about how his actions have affected you. Or maybe he still pulls your hair but wishes he could control himself. Do you forgive him? Do you continue to foster a relationship with him? As for the immorality of molesting children, how did you determine this? You and the children are going to be eternal nothingness in a (relatively) short time. What does it matter how much harm you cause others if you can get away with it? Your conscience is only a poor animal's conditioned response. Your individual particle's determine your meaning and future. Stop pretending that you're not a robot until you can give an adequate argument for free will.

"Aha! I'm so much smarter than those religious. They're sorry saps who want to be eternal sticks in the mud. But I know better since I was programmed to know better! I get more enjoyment out of life because I was programmed to get more enjoyment out of life. My experiences are inherently more meaningful because they have been programmed to be more meaningful!" <---The atheism implication.

My whole argument is that we are indeed free (but you can't have it both ways). You are not destined for hell. Where you end up is your choice and no one on earth can tell where you are going even after you have died. How much evil Stalin was morally responsible for and how much his mental illness was responsible is not for us to decide.
 
Well, I think most people atheist or otherwise believe in forgiving others to an extent. Your little brother pulled your hair as a child, but now he's more mature and has come to a realization about how his actions have affected you. Or maybe he still pulls your hair but wishes he could control himself. Do you forgive him? Do you continue to foster a relationship with him? As for the immorality of molesting children, how did you determine this? You and the children are going to be eternal nothingness in a (relatively) short time. What does it matter how much harm you cause others if you can get away with it? Your conscience is only a poor animal's conditioned response. Your individual particle's determine your meaning and future. Stop pretending that you're not a robot until you can give an adequate argument for free will.

"Aha! I'm so much smarter than those religious. They're sorry saps who want to be eternal sticks in the mud. But I know better since I was programmed to know better! I get more enjoyment out of life because I was programmed to get more enjoyment out of life. My experiences are inherently more meaningful because they have been programmed to be more meaningful!" <---The atheism implication.

My whole argument is that we are indeed free (but you can't have it both ways). You are not destined for hell. Where you end up is your choice and no one on earth can tell where you are going even after you have died. How much evil Stalin was morally responsible for and how much his mental illness was responsible is not for us to decide.
First, this highlights exactly why I find 'oblivion' far more comforting than 'eternal judgement'.
Second, you're completely leaving out the whole "belief in MY God is required to go to Heaven" which is really, really prevalent. I don't think anyone believes that Christianity supports murderers or rape or that there should be no such thing as a second chance. I think the sticking point comes when "murderer who repents and wants forgiveness from God" is ranked higher than "person who does good yet rejects religion".

To me, the priority should be good behavior, not paying lip service.
 
First, this highlights exactly why I find 'oblivion' far more comforting than 'eternal judgement'.
Second, you're completely leaving out the whole "belief in MY God is required to go to Heaven" which is really, really prevalent. I don't think anyone believes that Christianity supports murderers or rape or that there should be no such thing as a second chance. I think the sticking point comes when "murderer who repents and wants forgiveness from God" is ranked higher than "person who does good yet rejects religion".

To me, the priority should be good behavior, not paying lip service.

God only supports murder and rape under special circumstances.

For example, you can't just go out and rape any woman you want willy-nilly and free of repercussion. God does not condone that. It is permissible, however, if the woman you rape is not married or engaged. And in that case don't just think God will let you get away with it scot-free. You have to marry that girl you raped and you have to pay her father some silver pieces. So Saith the Lord.
 
What mech said and then: look, little brother, I don't like pulling your hair. Or am I the little brother. Regardless you'd have to be outside the tribe to note how astonishing it is that the religious can simultaneously condemn large portions of the earth's inhabitants to eternal suffering while their tribe is elevated to blissful righteousness while at the same time being able to manage the feeling of constant persecution. Their hyper offended-ness would be hilarious if it were less consequential to secular governance and way of life.

Tell you what. If it turns out you're right. And every heretic is pulled out of line and put on the celestial train to the other place--down there:laugh:--then I will do my best to buy you a beer over it. I mean what purpose is a lake of fire with eternal suffering. Surely there's some kind of job pressing license plates for heavenly Mercedes for 2$ a month or something. I'll save up and send you a round on me.

I do after all feel ready for whatever may come. I am ready to face it. And if, I'm to be judged and sentenced to burn on what horrible representation of a hidden celestial hierarchy was given to me in this life then there will be no going quietly. I'll swing and spit and bite on whatever heavenly guard lays hands on me while hurling the worst obscenities I can muster in the moment towards my accuser.

If I can just go quietly in another direction without a fuss all the better.

Does anybody find it as cometely disorienting as I do to be having conversations about the specifics of these ridiculous notions. As if any of us have been there and back and know something about it besides reports of the wierd psychedelia of near death experiences--hardly explanatory of heaven and hell.

And yet they come easily and matter of factly to the religious.

I will buy that you that beer my friend. I'm an honest pirate. And best of luck with all your afterlife endeavors.
 
God only supports murder and rape under special circumstances.

For example, you can't just go out and rape any woman you want willy-nilly and free of repercussion. God does not condone that. It is permissible, however, if the woman you rape is not married or engaged. And in that case don't just think God will let you get away with it scot-free. You have to marry that girl you raped and you have to pay her father some silver pieces. So Saith the Lord.

:laugh: nice.
 
I stopped believing in fairy tales and horror stories a long time ago. I think Jesus existed, and he was probably a very charming schizophrenic who was able to convince a lot of people that their poverty and suffering was not permanent - that there was something to look forward to after death, at the price of groveling at the feet of the One True God. It's strangely egotistical for an omnipotent, omniscient god, IMO. It's almost as if humans created God in their own image instead of the other way around.

I think I would side with Lucifer, if anything. Nobody ever sees it from his side, and the only story we ever hear of him is from God's perspective. I think Lucifer saw God for what he was (i.e., an egotistical megalomaniac) and refused to be a part of his "teachings," which, of course, got him exiled from the kingdom of heaven. Then God talked all this sh** about him, and now everybody thinks Lucifer's the bad guy - but he's not. It sounds like a pretty good premise for a movie. I wonder if anyone's ever done something like that.

Anyway, I think life is more meaningful when you don't believe that you have a 1-UP redeemable after your death. I have less than 100 years to experience the universe, and then I'm gone, along with all of the memories and emotions and people that make life worth living. There's nothing more powerful than knowing that.
 
I stopped believing in fairy tales and horror stories a long time ago. I think Jesus existed, and he was probably a very charming schizophrenic who was able to convince a lot of people that their poverty and suffering was not permanent - that there was something to look forward to after death, at the price of groveling at the feet of the One True God. It's strangely egotistical for an omnipotent, omniscient god, IMO. It's almost as if humans created God in their own image instead of the other way around.

I think I would side with Lucifer, if anything. Nobody ever sees it from his side, and the only story we ever hear of him is from God's perspective. I think Lucifer saw God for what he was (i.e., an egotistical megalomaniac) and refused to be a part of his "teachings," which, of course, got him exiled from the kingdom of heaven. Then God talked all this sh** about him, and now everybody thinks Lucifer's the bad guy - but he's not. It sounds like a pretty good premise for a movie. I wonder if anyone's ever done something like that.

Anyway, I think life is more meaningful when you don't believe that you have a 1-UP redeemable after your death. I have less than 100 years to experience the universe, and then I'm gone, along with all of the memories and emotions and people that make life worth living. There's nothing more powerful than knowing that.

This is kind of the problem I have with a lot of atheists. They sit around and spout off crap like this as if it's some super easy concept that everyone should be comfortable with. This is actually an incredibly difficult thing to wrap your head around on a personal level, which is it's so easy for so many people to buy into religions.

Sit around for a few minutes and think about your own non-existence. Actually think about it. Think about how you'll never experience ever again anything you've ever done. You'll never see anyone you ever loved, never think another thought. How the universe will keep going on for billions of years without you. Think about what you "existing" even means. This is a problem that has plagued philosophers for centuries, many of whom deny a person can ever understand what their own non-existence is considering everything you experience and think of is viewed through the lens of existence. Even when you try to rationalize it and write it off, realize that you're doing all this through the lens of your own consciousness and existence.

When you contemplate it for a while, you may realize that you're actually scared of dying now. Scared because you'll realize that, if you died crossing the street tomorrow, that's it. There's nothing left and won't ever be anything left. All the countless hours you spent working towards something in the future wouldn't ever matter. If you really buy into the idea that when we die, that's it, you have to be comfortable with the fact that you're less than a sh*tstain on the undies of the world. That's a very hard idea to be comfortable with and I think the people who say they're totally cool with that idea are bullsh*tting themselves and everyone they talk to.

Yeah and I know the old "I didn't exist before I was born and it didn't bother me then" which basically has no relevance to this situation.
 
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