Chiropractic or Podiatric

[Rutgers2000]

Recently, I was considering admissions to a podiatric college. However, I am currently a chiropractic student. I don't know if I should give up chiropractic for podiatric. There are a lot of controversies within both fields. As a chiropractor, I can make 70-80K right out of college. My chiropractor makes over $140,000 a yr with less than 5 yrs of experience. I heard that podiatric students are struggling to make a living. Can anybody verify this? Any inputs would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

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[jesse14]

hey,
I really can't give you much input on salaries because I am neither a DPM or DC but i hopefully will become a DC

I'm just curious, what chiropractic school are you in? How are you finding chiro school and why are you considering leaving?

Thank you so much

 

[PublicHealth]

Recently, I was considering admissions to a podiatric college. However, I am currently a chiropractic student. I don't know if I should give up chiropractic for podiatric. There are a lot of controversies within both fields. As a chiropractor, I can make 70-80K right out of college. My chiropractor makes over $140,000 a yr with less than 5 yrs of experience. I heard that podiatric students are struggling to make a living. Can anybody verify this? Any inputs would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

What about DO school? Judging by your screen name, you may be in the NY-NJ area. There are two DO schools in this area -- NYCOM (http://www.aacom.org/colleges/nycom.asp) and UMDNJ-SOM (http://www.aacom.org/colleges/umdnjsom.asp). Job availability and pay for DOs are better and more consistent than that of chiropractors and podiatrists. My advice is to shadow some DCs, DPMs, and DOs, drill them with questions, do some soul-searching, and invest your time and effort into the program that you're most passionate about.

 

[drbeesh]

Definately try shadowing both professions first before making any decisions. In terms of benefits, both professions can be very rewarding - especially podiatry so it should come down to what do you want to do.

I agree with PublicHealth that you should possibly also look into DO schools and perhaps shadow DOs, DCs, and DPMs...then make a decision that is best FOR YOU not for anyone else.

I strongly recommend you contacting osteopathic medical schools and ask them to set you up with an externship or shadowing opportunity with one of their physicians....as well as with the podiatric medical schools.

Good luck

 

[611]

I was ready to go to Optometry school until I shadowed a Chiropractor. I became a Chiropractor and never regreted it. You must do what is right for you.

 

[PublicHealth]

I was ready to go to Optometry school until I shadowed a Chiropractor. I became a Chiropractor and never regreted it. You must do what is right for you.

If you don't mind my asking, where did you go to chiropractic school? How is the current job market for chiropractors? What is the pay?

 

[611]

If you don't mind my asking, where did you go to chiropractic school? How is the current job market for chiropractors? What is the pay?

National University of Health Sciences
Income varies by region but I would think the low hundreds would be the low end and the high 200's would be the high end.

 

[ProZackMI]

Recently, I was considering admissions to a podiatric college. However, I am currently a chiropractic student. I don't know if I should give up chiropractic for podiatric. There are a lot of controversies within both fields. As a chiropractor, I can make 70-80K right out of college. My chiropractor makes over $140,000 a yr with less than 5 yrs of experience. I heard that podiatric students are struggling to make a living. Can anybody verify this? Any inputs would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Since you asked, I think podiatry is a more ethical profession and you receive a comprehensive medical education that will allow you to treat patients ethically and clinically using credible scientific methods of treatment. You'll be able to Rx medications, perform surgeries, and interact professionally with MDs and DOs. If you want to help people, go into podiatry. It's an honourable profession and you can make good money too.

Ask around. Many chiros make crap money and have to hustle to get clients. Chiropractic is often unethical and endorses hard sell tactics to get new clients. Many of the adjustment techniques are not supported by clinical medical/scientific evidence.

A DPM will provide you with more money, satisfication, and opportunity. You're also likely to have an increased scope of practice as time progresses. DCs will never be fully respected by other health professionals, nor will they get expanded scope of practice powers.

In fact, I predict that DPT (Doctors of Physical Therapy) will end up displacing or replacing chiros within the next 20-30 years. PTs have upgraded to a 3-year professional doctorate, post bach, and are lobbying for expanded scopes of practice (e.g., seeing patients without an MD/DO referral, etc.). If PTs enhance their abilities, the future of chiropractic might not be so bright.

 

[krabmas]

Ask around. Many chiros make crap money and have to hustle to get clients. Chiropractic is often unethical and endorses hard sell tactics to get new clients. Many of the adjustment techniques are not supported by clinical medical/scientific evidence.

DCs will never be fully respected by other health professionals, nor will they get expanded scope of practice powers.

I understand that this is your oppinion and that you are an MD not a DPM. However, not everyone that looks at each post will see that you are an MD. This is just my friendly request that if you are to talk up one profession please do not do it at the expense of another profession. (even if it is to talk up DPMs )

Thanks. And keep pushing pods!

 

[cg2a93]

I cant say I agree with prozak, I respect my chiro and he has done wonders for my LBP.
In my opinion true respect is not received by the letters behind your name, but from the person and his or her actions. There are many unethical chiros, but can you point out one profession without unethical people?
I did not attend chiro school so I cannot speak to their training, but from my experience the chiros I have come in contact with were well informed.
If one were interested in chiropractics I would suggest you do your homework. As to Podiatry vs Chiropractic, there is no comparison they are two totally different professions.
Good Luck

 

[jesse14]

I cant say I agree with prozak, I respect my chiro and hehas done wonders for my LBP.
In my opinion true respect is not received by the letters behind your name, but from the person and his or her actions. There are many unethical chiros, but can you point out one profession without unethical people?
I did not attend chiro school so I cannot speak to their training, but from my experience the chiros I have come in contact with were well informed.
If one were interested in chiropractics I would suggest you do your homework. As to Podiatry vs Chiropractic, there is no comparison they are two totally different professions.
Good Luck

Well said Prozak. You just can't say the chiropractic Profession is unethical by teh actions of a few maladjusted DC's.
Both professions have their ups and downs but both can be extremley rewarding as well.

 

[Rutgers2000]

First of all, I would like to say thank you for all your inputs. It is greatly appreciated.

Jesse, I am currently a student at New York Chiropractic College. What college are you at?

I started out as a pre-med student. However, I gotten a wonderful opportunity to shadow a DC in my area. He is a great chiro. Once I started Chiropractic college, I became frustrated with the lack of recognition. Chiropractic college is not a joke as most people assume. At NYCC, our faculty consist of mostly MD and Ph.D.. Most of these professors had previous experience as medical school professors in anatomy, neuroscience, and physiology. We have a few Ph.D. from Columbia and the Johns Hopkins University on our faculty. Several of our students hold Master's, doctoral, and even medical degrees. My only complaint is that chiropractors do not get any recognitions.

My only two options are chiropractic or podiatric because of the time frame. I have less than 3 years left of chiropractic. I can finish up a podiatric degree in 4-5 years including internship. Osteopathic would take over 7+ years to complete with residency. If it was 4 or 5 years ago, I wouldn't mind the extra 4 years. However at this stage in my life, I cannot sacrifice more than 5 years. I have a family to take care of.

I did spend a while shadowing a DO and DPM. From my experience, I found that regardless if you are a DC, DO, or DPM, your clinical setting in the private sector is pretty much the same. Most of your patients treat you with the same respect as any other doctors. However, it is only within the healthcare professions that criticizes each other. I wish that everybody would just get along and focus on helping the patients.

If any podiatric students or DPM would like to share their experience with podiatric or podiatric colleges, it would be greatly appreciated. My friends told me that the average salary of starting DPM is only around $45,000. I am afraid with such a low income, I would default on my high student loans.

 

[PM2]

Finish up podiatric education in 4-5 years?

The schooling is a minimum of 4 years, and I have heard that the 1 year residency will be dissolved in the near future. The more residency you do, the more freedom you will have as a physician.

For this reason, many students are doing 3 and 4 year residency programs. For some of these students, compensation is important and it appears that this places them about 20K-30K above the 1 year graduating residents.

Therefore, if the one year is dissolved, you will be looking at a minimum of 6 years. If you decide you want to do rearfoot reconstructive surgery and become board certified, then 7 years will be required.

The chiro's, not the enantiomeres (sp?) , that I know are very pleased with their careers. In addition, they know the general anatomy just as well, if not better than medical students.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

My friends told me that the average salary of starting DPM is only around $45,000. I am afraid with such a low income, I would default on my high student loans.

I don't know where people come up with these numbers??????

I am a resident and I make more than that (about $63,000). And benefits: 1 month paid vacation, full health insurance, about $4,600 in conferences, board review, and book stipend, and $3,120 in meal stipend.

The average DPM made $108,000 2 years ago. This was the 11th highest paid profession. 7 of the top 10 were doctors. I think this was US News and World Report Survey.

The Amer. Coll. Foot and Ankle Surgeons did income surveys of BOARD CERTIFIED DPMs. They found that the average DPM who was BOARD CERTIFIED in SURGERY made $172,000. I believe this was published in the Journal of Foot/Ankle Surg. last year or the year before.

LCR

 

[PM2]

I don't know where people come up with these numbers??????

LCR

diabeticfootdr,

My post DOES NOT say the average salary is 20-30K. Instead, it says that people with 3or4 year recidency's make 20-30K above people w/1yr initially.

I got the number from the Young Members Exchange: "The First Ever Young Members' Compensation Survey"

Have a nice day

 

[diabeticfootdr]

diabeticfootdr,

My post DOES NOT say the average salary is 20-30K. Instead, it says that people with 3or4 year recidency's make 20-30K above people w/1yr initially.

I got the number from the Young Members Exchange: "The First Ever Young Members' Compensation Survey"

Have a nice day

I understood what you meant PM2. I was referring to the post stating the salary of 1st year DPMs is $45k.

Lee

 

[BMW19]

Rutgers,

As a practicing chiro for 2 years, I can comment on the chiro side of things. I am starting DO school in one week and my motivations are my own, which I won't get into. However, I can offer some advice. I would go DPM if I were you. For several reasons:

1) As you stated, lack of recognition is an issue. We only see 10% of the population which is dismal. I don't know what DPM's see but it has to be higher. What you have is a glutton of chiros competing for 10% of the population. Not fun.

2) What I call the isolationist factor. We have no affiliation with hospitals or med centers. No ties to Pharm. comps. No MD/DO connections unless we pound the pavement to make them ourselves. And with all of that the chiros are very cutthroat b/c of the factors above.

3) I don't know what state you are going to practice in but I no of no opportunity in NY that will offer 70-80 K right out of school. I planned on practicing in NY, unless things changed in the last two years.

4) Ins. Comps are always trying to fight the chiros. As the above poster said the DPTs will take the reigns, they have all the backing of the MD's.

All of that being said, Chiro is not a bad field if you are a marketing machine and know how to bill. We really do help people contrary to what you hear on this forum. My patients told me everyday that I did what their MD could not with their Neck or back pain. Anyway i'll get off my soapbox. I am truly going DO b/c I want to be able to offer my patients everything and still have the DO philosophy. You can get into DO school with one year of chiro under your belt and you will not regret it. My opinion.

BMW-

Recently, I was considering admissions to a podiatric college. However, I am currently a chiropractic student. I don't know if I should give up chiropractic for podiatric. There are a lot of controversies within both fields. As a chiropractor, I can make 70-80K right out of college. My chiropractor makes over $140,000 a yr with less than 5 yrs of experience. I heard that podiatric students are struggling to make a living. Can anybody verify this? Any inputs would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Envision]

Rutgers,

As a practicing chiro for 2 years, I can comment on the chiro side of things. I am starting DO school in one week and my motivations are my own, which I won't get into. However, I can offer some advice. I would go DPM if I were you. For several reasons:

1) As you stated, lack of recognition is an issue. We only see 10% of the population which is dismal. I don't know what DPM's see but it has to be higher. What you have is a glutton of chiros competing for 10% of the population. Not fun.

2) What I call the isolationist factor. We have no affiliation with hospitals or med centers. No ties to Pharm. comps. No MD/DO connections unless we pound the pavement to make them ourselves. And with all of that the chiros are very cutthroat b/c of the factors above.

3) I don't know what state you are going to practice in but I no of no opportunity in NY that will offer 70-80 K right out of school. I planned on practicing in NY, unless things changed in the last two years.

4) Ins. Comps are always trying to fight the chiros. As the above poster said the DPTs will take the reigns, they have all the backing of the MD's.

All of that being said, Chiro is not a bad field if you are a marketing machine and know how to bill. We really do help people contrary to what you hear on this forum. My patients told me everyday that I did what their MD could not with their Neck or back pain. Anyway i'll get off my soapbox. I am truly going DO b/c I want to be able to offer my patients everything and still have the DO philosophy. You can get into DO school with one year of chiro under your belt and you will not regret it. My opinion.

BMW-

Dear All,

this isnt exactly relevent nor does it really offer anything constructive but it is an interesting story and since were on the topic i decided to share it. about Chiros being unethical or not, im not entirely sure, however, i do have a unique history with chiros. In HS, i was performin martial arts for a competition, during my training, i injured my ankle pretty severly. the sports MD suggested i take some time to rest it and that there really much else i could do. i decided to consult a local chiro. She enthusiastically insured me that she would be able to get me walking in a day or two which would allow me to perform. this is a case of excitement overulling logic, but i was so happy i accepted her treatment. she then proceeded in twisting my ankle in all directions, challenging the limits of human flexibity that would be considered disturbing even by normal standards. this "treatment" consisted of not only further twisting, pulling and pushing...but also stepping on (she got her robust son to step on my foot). i was in an incredible amount of pain but i reminded myself that she was a professional. after she was done, i couldnt walk for 2 month. a followup with the MD showed that my condition had worsen, now i didnt have a twisted ankle, i had a 2nd or 3rd degree sprain. i believe she ripped several of the ligaments in that area. so much for the performance, but hey, to compensate she gave me some crutches! yay! Anyways, i respect all health care professions, but i personally would never go to a chiro again, maybe its because ever since that encounter ive lost faith in DC, maybe i was traumatized, but i found that incident to be unethical (i paid her her fee and didnt sue...hehe). in anycase, in the future, my foot problems will go to an MD, DPM or DPT.

btw, sorry for the off topic

 

[BMW19]

Envision,

Tha actions of one Chiro don't characterize the entire profession as unethical. There are orthos that operate on the wrong leg. There are docs that inject pure botox into people (YES it really happened in Florida). My point being, people bash chiros on this forum but a lot of them are ethical and do a great justice. It is just a difficult profession to be in right now and very restricted. Sorry you had such a bad experience. In the future, if anyone reads this there are chiros that specialize and have certs. in extremity work. I would go to one of these for anything other than the spine.
That being said as a DO you can do everything, hence my returning for 4 more years of punishment!!

BMW-

Dear All,

this isnt exactly relevent nor does it really offer anything constructive but it is an interesting story and since were on the topic i decided to share it. about Chiros being unethical or not, im not entirely sure, however, i do have a unique history with chiros. In HS, i was performin martial arts for a competition, during my training, i injured my ankle pretty severly. the sports MD suggested i take some time to rest it and that there really much else i could do. i decided to consult a local chiro. She enthusiastically insured me that she would be able to get me walking in a day or two which would allow me to perform. this is a case of excitement overulling logic, but i was so happy i accepted her treatment. she then proceeded in twisting my ankle in all directions, challenging the limits of human flexibity that would be considered disturbing even by normal standards. this "treatment" consisted of not only further twisting, pulling and pushing...but also stepping on (she got her robust son to step on my foot). i was in an incredible amount of pain but i reminded myself that she was a professional. after she was done, i couldnt walk for 2 month. a followup with the MD showed that my condition had worsen, now i didnt have a twisted ankle, i had a 2nd or 3rd degree sprain. i believe she ripped several of the ligaments in that area. so much for the performance, but hey, to compensate she gave me some crutches! yay! Anyways, i respect all health care professions, but i personally would never go to a chiro again, maybe its because ever since that encounter ive lost faith in DC, maybe i was traumatized, but i found that incident to be unethical (i paid her her fee and didnt sue...hehe). in anycase, in the future, my foot problems will go to an MD, DPM or DPT.

btw, sorry for the off topic

 

[Envision]

Envision,

Tha actions of one Chiro don't characterize the entire profession as unethical. There are orthos that operate on the wrong leg. There are docs that inject pure botox into people (YES it really happened in Florida). My point being, people bash chiros on this forum but a lot of them are ethical and do a great justice. It is just a difficult profession to be in right now and very restricted. Sorry you had such a bad experience. In the future, if anyone reads this there are chiros that specialize and have certs. in extremity work. I would go to one of these for anything other than the spine.
That being said as a DO you can do everything, hence my returning for 4 more years of punishment!!

BMW-

BMW,

My apologies, i didnt mean to bash on chiros, i guess when reminicing on such memories made me a little bitter in my post. in anycase, good luck to you in the future as an osteopathic doctor.

 

[Rutgers2000]

Envision,

I agree with BMW, not all chiros are bad. In every profession, there are a certain few bad apples. For every bad chiro, there are many great chiros. For example, Terrell Owens of the Philadelphia Eagles fly his chiropractor out with him during games. During the Superbowl, he wasn't suppose to play. Medical doctors predicted that it would be impossible for TO to be ready by superbowl time. However, TO believed in the essence of chiropractic. Chiropractors do not promise recovery overnight, they just help your body heal.

Tiger Woods also got his own private chiropractor. I actually got the opportunity to meet the chiropractor. The PGA tour have their own traveling chiropractic clinic. Olympics teams, basketball team, and baseball teams all have chiropractors because some chiros have certification in sports medicine.

Well, that is just some of the examples that I know. There are many instances out there that athletes attribute their long running success to their chiropractors. Chiropractic is not all bad.

 

[chirodoc]

I messed up my first post but here it goes again.

I know of nobody making $80K as a D.C. right out of school. Unfortunately, it is NOT like other professions like P.A., M.D./D.O., or even O.D. The going rate is around $42K YMMV for an associate. The highest from my graduating class was $60K and he quit his job because of massive billing fraud on W/C...around $1.2M under his care. He got scared and left that job.

So in a nutshell unless you open your own practice then $80K first year is an rare exception and certainly not a rule. Over time I'm sure making that salary is possible although I would say it's no guarantee like other businesses. I graduated a little while back and went to practice as an associate less than a year ago and so far...ehh...disappointed. Real practice is mondane and the ethical dilemma's are many depending on your view of efficacy and over utilization. That's a completely different topic so I'll stop there.

Just my .02 but if I had it to do over again and I wasn't past my first two years in D.C. school I'd switch and go into a Dental program. At least for me the draw to chiropractic was personal experience and a talent for "hands on"/analytical stuff. My experience is certainly not the rule also, my boss is a multimillionaire but at the expense of running a precarious multidisciplinary practice. Your call but if I were to tell you to RUN the other way wouldn't be fair to those D.C.'s who are doing well but in my experience it has been a somewhat regrettable decision.

 

[Envision]

Envision,

I agree with BMW, not all chiros are bad. In every profession, there are a certain few bad apples. For every bad chiro, there are many great chiros. For example, Terrell Owens of the Philadelphia Eagles fly his chiropractor out with him during games. During the Superbowl, he wasn't suppose to play. Medical doctors predicted that it would be impossible for TO to be ready by superbowl time. However, TO believed in the essence of chiropractic. Chiropractors do not promise recovery overnight, they just help your body heal.

Tiger Woods also got his own private chiropractor. I actually got the opportunity to meet the chiropractor. The PGA tour have their own traveling chiropractic clinic. Olympics teams, basketball team, and baseball teams all have chiropractors because some chiros have certification in sports medicine.

Well, that is just some of the examples that I know. There are many instances out there that athletes attribute their long running success to their chiropractors. Chiropractic is not all bad.

Dear Rutgers,

Once more, I did not intend to bash on chiros. However, suffice to say im not merely going off of my direct experience to formulate my opinion. regarding chiros being unethical, it is not just individual chiros that are unethical but the profession as a whole is in question. I am sure your aware of the current concerns of the validity of chiros subluxation theory. I have read that subluxation is a diagonostic illusion that treats the symtoms, not the origin of the disease. Yes, there are chiros who do exceptionally well out there( like your tigerwoods example) but this is definately an exception and not the norm. I have also read a little about the chiropractic carriculum and how it does not adequately prepare a chiropractor as an alternative primary care doctor. Therefore, having both direct and indirect exposure to the abilities of chiropractors is what lead me to the conclusion that i initially stated. If anyone would like to discuss this any further, please feel free to, but please remain tactful. I am not trying to insult DCs, but there is no insult to say a blind man is blind...much like there is no insult in everything i have brought up here today. For a wider range of opinions, please check out the following site:
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi

 

[Marleychiro]

Hey all, I am a moderator on

http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi

I am not a chiro supporter, however I am a chiro. Not a good combination if you ask me. LOL

#1 Don't go to chiro school no matter how easy it is to get in. The schools will take your money, chew you up and spit you out. Has anyone ever seen the defult rates for chiros? Its bad, real bad.

Please everyone visit our website, everyone should know what is going in with their communities and their patients.

Thanks

 

[jonwill]

Rutgers2000, look up salary reports for DPM vs Chiro. (salary.monster.com) There is no comparison. Notice that a DPM is classified as a physician. There are plenty of jobs and plenty of money out there for the DPM. Some still do private practice, some go in with multi-specialty groups, and others go into orthopedic groups. In my home town of Albuquerque, DPM's are starting out with multi-specialty groups at around $130,000. A 3rd year resident here in Des Moines just got a job offer for around $150,000. Also keep in mind that there are a still some non-surgical podiatrists out there that pull the average DPM salary down.

 

[Marleychiro]

This is from a guy who almost got sucked into the chiro profession.

Thanks to all that replied. I don't have any email addresses, as from the get go, I sat back looking at fellow classmates thinking "Are these people for real? Do they really believe that? There is no mathematical way we can all be rich and successful!" So my wife and I are kind of loners on campus and unfortuanetly we live right across the street from the school with all the hard-core evangelists if you will, of chiropractic. Some potential pre-chiropractic students will probably read this and think it's my attitude or that I'm very anti-social or just one of those friendless idiots. I'm not - to know me is to love me. Thank God we have a month to month lease! I'm sorry you all feel you got ripped off - but feel good knowing that your educational website did save someone, it saved me. For all potential students that discovered this board recently - THIS IS NO JOKE - when I found this website I got mad, sad, and then looked to my family to say that these people on here are just pissed b/c they couldn't hack it. Well, guess what - I was wrong and THEY ARE CORRECT. After going through all but two weeks of a first trimester your B*****IT detector will also go off, it just isn't feasible to make a ton of money as chiropractor these days unless you are willing to sell your soul and become a full-time lecturer and event coordinator. The hey day for this professsion was when it didn't take 3 and 1/3 years to do the program or $130k+! Most the chiropractors I know are from those good 'ol days. Yes, they struggled to get the bills paid and had to sneak around b/c chiro was illegal and unrecognized by the insurance industry, but they got going when insurance started paying the bills but now two of my chiro's said their payments per treatment have plummeted! Just don't do it! If you're smart enough to do the pre-req sciences take the advice of my newly made friends - go do some other health field's cirriculum - heck become a nurse! Just don't become a struggling chiropractor. I used to hate this board now I know it's true - I'm sorry but it truly is. These people saved me my marriage and a life of struggling financially. I am lucky I only owe the powers that be $13k so far. Why spend $10 to make $2? Don't do it, take that money and buy a Quizno's franchise instead or something like it, you'll work 50 hours/week and actually see a return on your money.

 

[RaiderNation]

I'll add my two cents about chiropractic. I think its all about location. Find a place where chiropractic is accepted and there arent too many other chiros around. The chiro that my mom goes to is loaded. He just built a new office, and two houses on the lake. So, if you don't mind a little marketing and moving to the right spot, Chiro can be very lucrative.

 

[Marleychiro]

I'll add my two cents about chiropractic. I think its all about location. Find a place where chiropractic is accepted and there arent too many other chiros around. The chiro that my mom goes to is loaded. He just built a new office, and two houses on the lake. So, if you don't mind a little marketing and moving to the right spot, Chiro can be very lucrative.

Let me tell you that I have worked for a few very wealthy chiros and they each neted about $750,000 per year. First thing to rolling in it, you join a consulting firm and you do everything they tell you to do without question. Consultants rule the profession not science, and if you ask me that is a very scary thing.

My job was to do exams. An exam consisted of repeating a script to every patient, taking bogus x-rays, and doing a bogus muscle testing exam. The chiro I worked for would use all of my bogus info to scare patients into commiting for a year of treatments at 3 times per week.

So tell me about your Mom, why does she go?

Please also check out our website there are all kinds of things going on in the chiro profession that people like your Mom should know.

http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi

 

[RaiderNation]

Let me tell you that I have worked for a few very wealthy chiros and they each neted about $750,000 per year. First thing to rolling in it, you join a consulting firm and you do everything they tell you to do without question. Consultants rule the profession not science, and if you ask me that is a very scary thing.

My job was to do exams. An exam consisted of repeating a script to every patient, taking bogus x-rays, and doing a bogus muscle testing exam. The chiro I worked for would use all of my bogus info to scare patients into commiting for a year of treatments at 3 times per week.

So tell me about your Mom, why does she go?

Please also check out our website there are all kinds of things going on in the chiro profession that people like your Mom should know.

http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi

Uh, ok. My mom goes once a month, sometimes less, because it makes her feel good. I checked out your site and it seemed pretty bias to me. Since you had a bad experience are u assuming that all chiros are dishonest and bad people? It's easy to be dishonest in any profession, not just chiropractic. To say that chiro is all bad is wrong. There are some chiros that are unethical and claim to do things they can't, but you can't lump them all into the same category. Chiro does have its place in health, its just not as well defined. Your site was almost tasteless at times. Thanks for wasting my time.

 

[Marleychiro]

Ok, so would you want to be a chiro? The point of the site is not to be biased but to tell future students not to get involved with a profession as you stated "has a place in health, its just not well defined."

You hit it right on the head. Chiro is not defined by science but rather by individuals who are chiros. That leaves a lot of gray area and like you said its not every chiro but a few make a bad name for the entire profession.

However, bad chiros ruin the whole profession. Let me tell you about an anesthesiologist named Bill Kinsinger out of Oklahoma. Bill claimed he had leukemia and told this to a chiro down the street. Did the chiro refer him, heck no. The chiro claimed he could treat the leukemia. So guess what Bill does? He makes it his job to go out of his way along with some other MD's to talk to legislation and insurance companies to further restrict chiro.

Can a few bad chiros ruin it for everyone? Yes they can. Insurance reimebursment sucks for chiros, and the job market is even worse. Where does that leave a new gradute owing over $100,000 in student loan debt?

If you don't like our website than check out

http://chirobase.org/
by Stephen Barrett, MD

 

[RaiderNation]

Ok, so would you want to be a chiro? The point of the site is not to be biased but to tell future students not to get involved with a profession as you stated "has a place in health, its just not well defined."

You hit it right on the head. Chiro is not defined by science but rather by individuals who are chiros. That leaves a lot of gray area and like you said its not every chiro but a few make a bad name for the entire profession.

However, bad chiros ruin the whole profession. Let me tell you about an anesthesiologist named Bill Kinsinger out of Oklahoma. Bill claimed he had leukemia and told this to a chiro down the street. Did the chiro refer him, heck no. The chiro claimed he could treat the leukemia. So guess what Bill does? He makes it his job to go out of his way along with some other MD's to talk to legislation and insurance companies to further restrict chiro.

Can a few bad chiros ruin it for everyone? Yes they can. Insurance reimebursment sucks for chiros, and the job market is even worse. Where does that leave a new gradute owing over $100,000 in student loan debt?

If you don't like our website than check out

http://chirobase.org/
by Stephen Barrett, MD

I agree with you. That's why I believe that the chiro schools that teach students that they need to work together with MD's and they can't treat things like cancer are good schools. I think the one in Oregon follows this philosophy. I think its sad that there are chiros out there that really believe that they can treat cancer, etc. Plus, people like that make things tons worse for good chiropractos. I didn't mean to totally bash on your site, but it seemed like alot of the posts were slightly unprofessional and the regular posters were people that had one bad experience with one chiro and decided they were all evil. Chiropractic is a very gray area. I think that maybe government should define better what chiros can and can't treat. If a dentist decides that he's going to treat synovial sarcoma his license would be yanked right away. Why doesn't this happen with chiros? But nobody can deny that chiropractors have alleviated tons of people from headaches and back pain without surgery. If an MD told you that you needed major back surgery would you consider going to a chiropractor first? I definitely would.

 

[Marleychiro]

It dosen't matter what school you go to, the end result will still be the same, your a chiropractor.

Nobody I have kept in contact with is doing well as a chiro. A few have already opened and closed offices, been used for insurance fraud, and jumped from job to job. One guy is being sued by the state of Colorado. A few guys are going back to school for a different profession.

One of my old close friends is making it but he is doing unethical things with scare tactics and insurance billing.

Don't get me wrong, it is possible to be rich as a chiro. Much of the money a chiro makes will depend on ethics and not brains or skill. The profession is just not what it use to be.

 

[Marleychiro]

Here is a blog I found last night. According to some, there are only a few bad chiros out there.


[quote author=marley board=treatment thread=1129191227 post=1129191227]
I few weeks ago a free spinal screening was made available to me. In all honesty, I didn't know what a spinal screening was, but it seemed like a good idea to have one. Little did I know it was a whole dog and pony sales convention for a chiropractor. Since when do doctors have to peddle their wares to drum up customers.. I never knew good salesmanship was required to be a chiropractor. At the screening, they show me how the spine should curve and how if it's off you create blockage - the nerves may not get enough oxygen! Egads. When you sign up for the screening, they ask you why you want one, meaning where is your pain. Not wanting to admit that I didn't know what it was and I don't really have any pain, I admit 2 things ... that sometimes after I take a pilates class, my lower back hurts (which I believe to be muscular because pilates works on the muscles in your lower back) and that sometimes I get (gasp) headaches. At the end of the screening they tell me all these things that can be wrong with me and for the super low rate of $20, I can have a full spinal evaluation (with Xrays). Well, it's only $20 and they really made it seem like I might be heading for the wheelchair. So I sign up for an appointment.. mostly because I'm an idiot. Last week I went to the appointment and after the informative video on how the chiropractor is going to change my life, we discuss my 2 admissions. The doctor says he will check out the lower back pain because it obviously can be caused by spinal misalignment.. yikes. He asks how often I have headaches and I don't have headaches that often, but I don't want to look like an idiot so I say: about every 2 weeks. And then he says: I don't think anyone should ever have headaches (let me tell you that the headache I get if I haven't had caffeine by 9am is not related to my spine!) and how he can help me, but I have to admit I have a problem with my pain first. I want to say: what I really need help with is the fact that I'm a suckah, and I should never have let you talk me into this stupid appointment, but I don't. And it's off the the xrays.. and the examination where the doctor can "feel my pain" and how tight the muscles are around the right side of my neck. He says: you work at a computer, don't you. Yes, I say (the bubble above my head says: amazing, since I told you that 10 min. ago!). Finally, it's over. Tonight I have to go back for my results and recommended plan of action. I'm fully expecting the diagnosis to be that I need a full body cast and physical therapy with him 3 hours a day, 7 days a week. Why am I such a ******?[/quote]

 

[RaiderNation]

Here's what you do to become a successful chiropractor and still be ethical. You have to: 1. Move to a place where there aren't tons of chiros, 2. make sure chiro is generally accepted there, 3. get involved in the community...join a school board, volunteer time to help local high school sports programs, etc. Why do anti-chiros always bring up the super-extreme cases of a quack chiro? It's like doing a research paper from one point of view. It's not good.

 

[Marleychiro]

It was nice chatting with you good luck with school or whatever your plans are.

 

[psionic_blast]

Comparing podiatry to chiropractic is like comparing allopathy with a naturopathy.

 

[RaiderNation]

It was nice chatting with you good luck with school or whatever your plans are.

And good luck with your personal quest to bring down chiropractic.

 

[Marleychiro]

Kids and students should know what they are getting themselves into if they decide to do the chiro route. Here is a post about a successful chiro leaving the field and his reasons for doing so. Also, I am not destroying anything, the chiro profession doesn't need much help with that.

Today at 2:04am, drgibb wrote:
I have spent the last hour reading threads through this board. I have practiced for the past 12 years as a chiro and recently sold my practice to people who talked more about numbers than anything else. I was never like that and as a result I found enjoying my practice was getting harder and harder. I got tired of the same old questions. Why does blank hurt, and then giving the same answer which, wasn't that your neck was misaligned. Any truthful doc, M.D. or Chiro will have to face the fact that we don't have many answers. As the number of docs in my area increased and the reimbursement from cash pay and insurance decreased. Even auto insurance is clamping down on us. I saw so many people I know go into panic mode and start selling everything they could. I am not sure what chiropractic is anymore with all these docs doing laser, emg, ncv, "nutrition" etc.

I finally got to the point where I could no longer 1) Be intellectually honest with myself and my patients. 2) Enjoy going to work. So I sold my practice. Luckily I made several good real estate investments and don't need to work for a few years. Most D.C.'s I know don't have this luxury. Oh, by the way, 80% of the friends I went to chiro school with have now moved on to something else. I see only two types of docs left. Those who will say and do anything to commit a patient to care and not lose sleep at night and those who are the true believers and will never leave and believe that chiro can cure all (Proof is not necessary when you are an ideologue).

I have friends whom the latter describes and I love them but they scare me. I believe that chiro has good in it. Not as much as the true believers think and not as little as most PT's think. But what is going on right now is an upheaval (sp?) that is going to change chiro for ever. With enrollment down 35 to 45 percent in the schools and docs like me and my friends leaving as fast a they can, the strength of the profession will severely damaged. This will lead to further consumer distrust of the profession.

Chiro will not go away but the savvy public has heard all the lines the chiro's have to put out there and are not buying them anymore therefore fewer and fewer people will access chiropractic and the doc's will be forced to use more creative marketing techniques to get people in the door which will erode further public confidence. I think you see where I am going with this.

Not practicing has been the greatest and most positive change in my life. I sleep better at night. I am unemployed right now and have never felt better. I will end up in real estate or mortgage lending. Two businesses where you can see and feel your product. You know the problem. You find the answer. And your done. Totally unlike chiro where most of the time you don't know the exact cause of the problem, but none the less you apply your tool the hammer and hope the something happens.

For what it's worth.

 

[krabmas]

Also keep in mind that there are a still some non-surgical podiatrists out there that pull the average DPM salary down.[/QUOTE]


Surgery is a great part of podiatry but it is not the only part. Planty of podiatrists make great money doing wound care and Rxing orthotics, giving injections and other aspects of treating patients.

The re-imbursment for surgery is not that great anymore - you will have to see that patient for 90 days after the surgery (global period) for the same fee as the surgery - no extra co-pays no more payment.

I am not against surgery I just want a true picture to be out there.

If you are going into podiatry purely for the surgical aspect just remeber that there are other things that need to be considered before you can opperate. Biomechanics, the patient's lifestyle, are there conservative mearsures taht could work better.....?

 

[LloydBanks]

Kids and students should know what they are getting themselves into if they decide to do the chiro route. Here is a post about a successful chiro leaving the field and his reasons for doing so. Also, I am not destroying anything, the chiro profession doesn't need much help with that.

Today at 2:04am, drgibb wrote:
I have spent the last hour reading threads through this board. I have practiced for the past 12 years as a chiro and recently sold my practice to people who talked more about numbers than anything else. I was never like that and as a result I found enjoying my practice was getting harder and harder. I got tired of the same old questions. Why does blank hurt, and then giving the same answer which, wasn't that your neck was misaligned. Any truthful doc, M.D. or Chiro will have to face the fact that we don't have many answers. As the number of docs in my area increased and the reimbursement from cash pay and insurance decreased. Even auto insurance is clamping down on us. I saw so many people I know go into panic mode and start selling everything they could. I am not sure what chiropractic is anymore with all these docs doing laser, emg, ncv, "nutrition" etc.

I finally got to the point where I could no longer 1) Be intellectually honest with myself and my patients. 2) Enjoy going to work. So I sold my practice. Luckily I made several good real estate investments and don't need to work for a few years. Most D.C.'s I know don't have this luxury. Oh, by the way, 80% of the friends I went to chiro school with have now moved on to something else. I see only two types of docs left. Those who will say and do anything to commit a patient to care and not lose sleep at night and those who are the true believers and will never leave and believe that chiro can cure all (Proof is not necessary when you are an ideologue).

I have friends whom the latter describes and I love them but they scare me. I believe that chiro has good in it. Not as much as the true believers think and not as little as most PT's think. But what is going on right now is an upheaval (sp?) that is going to change chiro for ever. With enrollment down 35 to 45 percent in the schools and docs like me and my friends leaving as fast a they can, the strength of the profession will severely damaged. This will lead to further consumer distrust of the profession.

Chiro will not go away but the savvy public has heard all the lines the chiro's have to put out there and are not buying them anymore therefore fewer and fewer people will access chiropractic and the doc's will be forced to use more creative marketing techniques to get people in the door which will erode further public confidence. I think you see where I am going with this.

Not practicing has been the greatest and most positive change in my life. I sleep better at night. I am unemployed right now and have never felt better. I will end up in real estate or mortgage lending. Two businesses where you can see and feel your product. You know the problem. You find the answer. And your done. Totally unlike chiro where most of the time you don't know the exact cause of the problem, but none the less you apply your tool the hammer and hope the something happens.

For what it's worth.

Funny. Where I'm from there are alot of very successful chiropractors. I know two of them personally and they are very nice individuals with high moral standards. It seems your friend there forgot that he's gotta make money. If you become a chiropractor thinking you're simply going to be treating patients and blah blah blah...you're in for a wake up call. 75% of chiropractic is business, like it or not. Chiropractors that realize that are very successful...those that don't, well, end up in real estate.

 

[chirodoc]

What Marley is saying is not "untrue". As a practicing D.C. I can say these things are everyday life as a D.C.. However, it does break down into two camps...those that believe adjusting is beneficial to overall health and those who do not. (i.e. do you believe in subluxations?) If you do then you will do those things (marketing and long term treatment plans) that do make for a successful practice. If you do not subscribe to the idea of lifetime care and subluxation as a cause of dis-ease (yes, that's spelled correctly...a little change of definitions that is common in chiropractic education) then you will feel these are overutilized procedures, incorrectly prescribed for non-existent conditions and you will probably fail in practice or be subject (like me) to an associate position which as I stated before is low pay for the amount of education, in my particular case applying therapy as prescribed by a D.O. anyway...so much for the "Doctor" title.There was a recent article in the SLC Tribune which listed chiropractic as the "lowest" paid profession requiring the highest amount of education. I agree, that about sums it up.

It's not so much that you CAN'T make it as a D.C. You possibly can. However, thats the problem. In the other healthcare professions you probably will succeed financially and professionally. Anyone can believe in themselves and do whatever it takes to succeed but is that what you want to do...whatever it takes (read into this as much as you want). It boils down to possibilities and probabilities...dreaming and planning. Chiro's are mostly dreaming (mostly while in didactic classes in D.C. school) and most other professional students are planning a bright future focused on patients and advancements in treatment...not practice building. Do you want to be a "Doctor" or just a business owner?

 

[LaMigra]

Funny. Where I'm from there are alot of very successful chiropractors. I know two of them personally and they are very nice individuals with high moral standards. It seems your friend there forgot that he's gotta make money. If you become a chiropractor thinking you're simply going to be treating patients and blah blah blah...you're in for a wake up call. 75% of chiropractic is business, like it or not. Chiropractors that realize that are very successful...those that don't, well, end up in real estate.

Truer words were never spoken.

 

[LaMigra]

Rutgers,

As a practicing chiro for 2 years, I can comment on the chiro side of things. I am starting DO school in one week and my motivations are my own, which I won't get into. However, I can offer some advice. I would go DPM if I were you. For several reasons:

1) As you stated, lack of recognition is an issue. We only see 10% of the population which is dismal. I don't know what DPM's see but it has to be higher. What you have is a glutton of chiros competing for 10% of the population. Not fun.

2) What I call the isolationist factor. We have no affiliation with hospitals or med centers. No ties to Pharm. comps. No MD/DO connections unless we pound the pavement to make them ourselves. And with all of that the chiros are very cutthroat b/c of the factors above.

3) I don't know what state you are going to practice in but I no of no opportunity in NY that will offer 70-80 K right out of school. I planned on practicing in NY, unless things changed in the last two years.

4) Ins. Comps are always trying to fight the chiros. As the above poster said the DPTs will take the reigns, they have all the backing of the MD's.

All of that being said, Chiro is not a bad field if you are a marketing machine and know how to bill. We really do help people contrary to what you hear on this forum. My patients told me everyday that I did what their MD could not with their Neck or back pain. Anyway i'll get off my soapbox. I am truly going DO b/c I want to be able to offer my patients everything and still have the DO philosophy. You can get into DO school with one year of chiro under your belt and you will not regret it. My opinion.

BMW-

You can get into DO school with a year of chiro? Is this a year of chiro practice, or chiro school. Just curious, cuz I've never heard this before.