chemI/bio or chemI/physics?

[IUgrad]

I have a question for those of you who have already been through some of these prerequisite classes.

I am trying to decide between taking general chemistry and biology I and II together now (organic chem and physics together later) or chem and physics now (org and bio later). Like a lot of you, I am working full-time while going to school full-time, and I could really use your advice on which is the most optimal situation.

Which do you recommend?


Thanks, everyone.

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[flighterdoc]

I have a question for those of you who have already been through some of these prerequisite classes.

I am trying to decide between taking general chemistry and biology I and II together now (organic chem and physics together later) or chem and physics now (org and bio later). Like a lot of you, I am working full-time while going to school full-time, and I could really use your advice on which is the most optimal situation.

Which do you recommend?


Thanks, everyone.

Ever taken them before (or in HS, and how long ago was that)?

 

[IUgrad]

Hi, flighterdoc,

I took Gen Chem I for college credit my senior year of high school (7 years ago). My premed adviser said I should go for Gen Chem II; however, I barely remember anything from Chem I, so I am taking it again next semester.

As for biology and physics, I only took what was required in high school, the first class of each - I didn't take the advanced class of either in high school.

I'm a pretty good math student (which I've been told is helpful for physics), but I've only had Calc I. I didn't know if I might need to take more calculus in preparation for physics or not.

I really appreciate your advice!
I'm finally getting started this fall, and I'm really nervous (and excited)!

 

[flighterdoc]

Hi, flighterdoc,

I took Gen Chem I for college credit my senior year of high school (7 years ago). My premed adviser said I should go for Gen Chem II; however, I barely remember anything from Chem I, so I am taking it again next semester.

As for biology and physics, I only took what was required in high school, the first class of each - I didn't take the advanced class of either in high school.

I'm a pretty good math student (which I've been told is helpful for physics), but I've only had Calc I. I didn't know if I might need to take more calculus in preparation for physics or not.

I really appreciate your advice!
I'm finally getting started this fall, and I'm really nervous (and excited)!

Unless you're dead set on going to a school that requires a calc based physics (and there might be one or two out there) don't bother with calc, or calc based physics. Take the trig based (non engineering) physics. The MCAT is all trig based, you dont need calc for it at all (and the prep material won't cover calc).

OK, so you need a full series Chem (General/Org), Physics (trig based) and Bio. I found Bio the easiest, Org (taking it now) the worst, gen chem in the middle. I took engineering physics (and calc) back when I got my undergrad degreee, and will be taking physics again (it was offered by the engineering dept, not science, and I was advised to take it over) - no problem, physics is kind of simple for me.

So, I'd take the classes in this series (my opinion only):

Semester 1: Gen Chem 1 Bio 1
Semester 2: Gen Chem 2, Bio 2
Semester 3: Org 1, Physics 1 (trig)
Semester 4: Org 2, Physics 2 (trig)

The chem classes is the critical path - work the physics in around it if you need to for scheduling purposes. But, for the MCAT, Org 2 and Physics 2 are probably the least necessary (if necessary at all), so I'd try and work them in around the MCAT.

Good grades, and a good score on the MCAT, are the key issues to work towards.

If you want some other classes to buff your app, try microbiology and maybe molecular genetics, but DONT WORRY if you don't take them, they're not needed for the MCAT (the MCAT questions are covered by the basic-8 courses, or basic 6). A few schools want Biochem, if you're not into a lot of chemistry, find another school

And, checking on various school requirements is actually pretty simple, right now - they mostly all have web sites that list their requirements (under admissions), so find out if a school you would consider has some requirement other than the basics - for instance, the DO schools tend to require some social sciences or psych classes, english, etc. As mentioned, a few schools require biochem, and there might be some that require calc or calc based physics. Find out now.

And, two things to remember: It's NEVER too late to become what you should have been; and the process is a marathon - not a sprint.

Good luck!

 

[boogaking]

If Gen I is a repeat... and you remember it .... G Chem I & II together will be a load for most... considering that those two have mandatory labs associated with them... that means a few more hours a week in addition to the lecture part... Now if you're considering to take Bio I and II with GChem I and II all together.... thats a total of 6 classes (I include labs as separate classes)... thats a load and a half... Now put into factor an 8 hours work day... WOW! I remember the days of the 9-5 ....I thought I could just magically get out of work and kick into overdrive and go to class... then study for another 8 hours and..... It worked for about 2 weeks and I clunked... thats just me...

As far as my experience... about a year ago I resigned from my research post..a job I had kept since undergrad ..about 5 years.. moved from CA to MA... why? Just to experience a new life... and maybe jump start something.. that will catapult me into grad/med school.... at age 29 I gave myself a two year plan... do all that I can do and try and get to my goals... two years top ...before moving on to plan B...

Well I enrolled in a MA 4 year univ .. semester 1 20 units... Biochem I, Anatomy and physio I, endocrinology, immunology, neurobio, and human physio I.
total 20 units.... semester II Biochem II, A&P II, Microbiology, Embryology... 16 units.... now when I made this schedule.... and showed it to ppl... they told me I was nutz... but I knew I could do it... I believed in myself....

The outcome... I got all A's in Semester I with exception to Endocrinology.. great class but tough subject... I got a B+... Semester II all A's except one in Micro where I got a B+.... GPA for this past year is lingering around.. 3.9 ....

Now my previous GPA stats from undergrad was 2.8 Sci and roughly the same overall... the second time around showed much improvement... I think I was just more focused on a goal... I guess.. wiser in a way!

I guess my moral of this whole thread is that you can do just about anything... but its gonna be an "arsh" whipping achieving it... Just remember its not just taking the classes... with that type of workload... but also getting A's... or just about... It's easy to sign up for classes.... its another thing to bust the work to do well in them... Good LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Treese]

I also work full time, and I have a plan that I set to make sure I keep everything on track. My plan is to take the MCAT in April do well on it and enter medical school in 2006. I feel good knowing I?m not the only one with a full load this semester.
I will be taking:
Physics 2 with lab
Human Anatomy & Physiology with lab
Microbiology with lab.

Next semester (spring) I want to take:
Gen. Chemistry 1 with lab
Organic Chemistry 1 with lab
Biochemistry with lab
Psychology.
Depending on how things go I make try to take Chen Chemistry 2 with lab as well. If not then I will take it during the 1st. summer session that ends around June 20, therefore, I will not be to far behind in the application process.

I?m not taking regular Biology, because most of the schools I want to attend told me that the higher-level Biology classes would help me on the MCAT, and prepare me for medical school. I do not know if this is true or not.

Can any one tell me what they think of this class load?

 

[IUgrad]

Hey, Flighterdoc,

I really appreciate all your advice - you've been so helpful! (Let me know if you ever want a part-time job on the side as a premed adviser! )

Unless you're dead set on going to a school that requires a calc based physics (and there might be one or two out there) don't bother with calc, or calc based physics. Take the trig based (non engineering) physics. The MCAT is all trig based, you dont need calc for it at all (and the prep material won't cover calc).

Since I won't need it for the MCAT, I think I'll just go for the first series physics then, P201-P202 rather than P221-P222, so I won't have to take calculus. (Now, if I can just remember trig... )

OK, so you need a full series Chem (General/Org), Physics (trig based) and Bio. I found Bio the easiest, Org (taking it now) the worst, gen chem in the middle. I took engineering physics (and calc) back when I got my undergrad degreee, and will be taking physics again (it was offered by the engineering dept, not science, and I was advised to take it over) - no problem, physics is kind of simple for me.

So, I'd take the classes in this series (my opinion only):

Semester 1: Gen Chem 1 Bio 1
Semester 2: Gen Chem 2, Bio 2
Semester 3: Org 1, Physics 1 (trig)
Semester 4: Org 2, Physics 2 (trig)

Great! That really helps me a lot, and I'm glad to hear that you thought that biology is easier. I am trying to keep the load easier this year, since I am working more hours than I will be (hopefully, anyway) next year.

The chem classes is the critical path - work the physics in around it if you need to for scheduling purposes. But, for the MCAT, Org 2 and Physics 2 are probably the least necessary (if necessary at all), so I'd try and work them in around the MCAT.

Good to know - I planned on taking the April 2006 MCAT while I am finishing up Org and Physics (which wouldn't end until May that semester.) I was worried about the scheduling there.

Good grades, and a good score on the MCAT, are the key issues to work towards.

If you want some other classes to buff your app, try microbiology and maybe molecular genetics, but DONT WORRY if you don't take them, they're not needed for the MCAT (the MCAT questions are covered by the basic-8 courses, or basic 6). A few schools want Biochem, if you're not into a lot of chemistry, find another school

And, checking on various school requirements is actually pretty simple, right now - they mostly all have web sites that list their requirements (under admissions), so find out if a school you would consider has some requirement other than the basics - for instance, the DO schools tend to require some social sciences or psych classes, english, etc. As mentioned, a few schools require biochem, and there might be some that require calc or calc based physics. Find out now.

Good point - I hadn't thought of that. I definitely will look into the requirements. I would hate to finish these classes, start applying and realize that I am missing some requirement that would prevent me from applying, (especially requirements like english or psych that I could have easily taken with the prereqs).

And, two things to remember: It's NEVER too late to become what you should have been; and the process is a marathon - not a sprint.

Good luck!

That's really great advice - I won't forget it. Thank you so much!
Good luck with organic this semester!

 

[flighterdoc]

Thanks very much, and you're welcome!

 

[IUgrad]

If Gen I is a repeat... and you remember it .... G Chem I & II together will be a load for most... considering that those two have mandatory labs associated with them... that means a few more hours a week in addition to the lecture part... Now if you're considering to take Bio I and II with GChem I and II all together.... thats a total of 6 classes (I include labs as separate classes)... thats a load and a half... Now put into factor an 8 hours work day... WOW! I remember the days of the 9-5 ....I thought I could just magically get out of work and kick into overdrive and go to class... then study for another 8 hours and..... It worked for about 2 weeks and I clunked... thats just me...

I think I'm just going to take gen chem I (5 cr), bio I (3cr) bio II (3 cr) and another class (3 cr) this fall. (I may not have been very clear before, sorry.) I'm DEFINITELY not ready to take gen chem I and II together.

As for my job, I've been told they will be understanding, and I will get some time, once in a while, to study at work....(hopefully). I know it sounds like a lot (not as much as what you did, though). I know I probably show complete naivety in thinking I can do it, but I'm hoping to make it work, somehow.

As far as my experience... about a year ago I resigned from my research post..a job I had kept since undergrad ..about 5 years.. moved from CA to MA... why? Just to experience a new life... and maybe jump start something.. that will catapult me into grad/med school.... at age 29 I gave myself a two year plan... do all that I can do and try and get to my goals... two years top ...before moving on to plan B...

Well I enrolled in a MA 4 year univ .. semester 1 20 units... Biochem I, Anatomy and physio I, endocrinology, immunology, neurobio, and human physio I.
total 20 units.... semester II Biochem II, A&P II, Microbiology, Embryology... 16 units.... now when I made this schedule.... and showed it to ppl... they told me I was nutz... but I knew I could do it... I believed in myself....

The outcome... I got all A's in Semester I with exception to Endocrinology.. great class but tough subject... I got a B+... Semester II all A's except one in Micro where I got a B+.... GPA for this past year is lingering around.. 3.9 ....

Now my previous GPA stats from undergrad was 2.8 Sci and roughly the same overall... the second time around showed much improvement... I think I was just more focused on a goal... I guess.. wiser in a way!

That's a really inspirational story! Thanks for sharing it with me. It's really nice to hear from someone who has been there and made it through. Sounds like you've really come a long way and you've proven you can do it. Congratulations! Are you applying to med school this year?

I guess my moral of this whole thread is that you can do just about anything... but its gonna be an "arsh" whipping achieving it... Just remember its not just taking the classes... with that type of workload... but also getting A's... or just about... It's easy to sign up for classes.... its another thing to bust the work to do well in them... Good LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's great advice - thanks. Good luck to you, too!

 

[Wahoowa]

Just my two cents. If I had to do it all over again, I would pair Gen Chem with Physics--there is some overlap.

 

[boogaking]

IUGrad... I am planning on taking the MCAT come April ...to keep the tru spirit of the non traditional route I will be applying for medschool ...abroad....I have my eyes set on ROSS! Despite all that has been said... This route serves me best. In the mean time... I am actually sitting on one of my many routes... I just took the DAT.... Dental Admissions Test... actually took it a couple of weeks ago...I surprised myself and did pretty well so I thought I'd crack my chances at Dental... first... so im in the process of apps with that... many directions may be seen from my point but ...that's how it is as a non-traditional... always have to think about plan B and C while A is on the burner.

Think high....

 

[ShyRem]

Treese..
Isn't gen chem a prereq for OChem and isn't OChem a prereq for biochem??? You can't take them all together.. It should take two semesters for gen chem, two semesters for OChem and then another semester for biochem... that's five semesters at least to do this sequence.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Agree with fighterdoc on his excellent posts. One little bone to pick though.

Although calc-based physicis is not required at most schools, I recommend taking it instead of trig based physics. It's more challenging, but I feel that I got an excellent understanding of physics. I didn't just memorize some plug-n-play formulas. If you take integral calc first, then the integral based physics shouldn't be too hard. I, and some friends who took the calc-physics, did extremely well on the physical science section of the MCAT. Whereas, my friends who went the trig-based way fared less well. It's true that you don't *need* the integral calc, but I think that if you're gonna take physics, (and you have to) then you're cheating yourself if you don't push the edge a little bit and learn integral calc and then really learn physics. This is just my opinion, and I'm sure I'm in the minority.

 

[ShyRem]

Agree with fighterdoc on his excellent posts. One little bone to pick though.

Although calc-based physicis is not required at most schools, I recommend taking it instead of trig based physics. It's more challenging, but I feel that I got an excellent understanding of physics. I didn't just memorize some plug-n-play formulas. If you take integral calc first, then the integral based physics shouldn't be too hard. I, and some friends who took the calc-physics, did extremely well on the physical science section of the MCAT. Whereas, my friends who went the trig-based way fared less well. It's true that you don't *need* the integral calc, but I think that if you're gonna take physics, (and you have to) then you're cheating yourself if you don't push the edge a little bit and learn integral calc and then really learn physics. This is just my opinion, and I'm sure I'm in the minority.

I absolutely agree. Calculus-based physics gives you a better understanding of what is going on rather than monky-see-monkey-do plug-n-chug formulas. You do less memorizing and more understanding and figuring out. However, I, too, have been blasted for this viewpoint.

 

[flighterdoc]

Agree with fighterdoc on his excellent posts. One little bone to pick though.

Although calc-based physicis is not required at most schools, I recommend taking it instead of trig based physics. It's more challenging, but I feel that I got an excellent understanding of physics. I didn't just memorize some plug-n-play formulas. If you take integral calc first, then the integral based physics shouldn't be too hard. I, and some friends who took the calc-physics, did extremely well on the physical science section of the MCAT. Whereas, my friends who went the trig-based way fared less well. It's true that you don't *need* the integral calc, but I think that if you're gonna take physics, (and you have to) then you're cheating yourself if you don't push the edge a little bit and learn integral calc and then really learn physics. This is just my opinion, and I'm sure I'm in the minority.

Fine (I'm an engineer, so it was all calc based for me) but keep in mind, calc based physics won't help (and might even hurt) on the MCAT, where it's not even precise physics they're interested in.

And, I've yet to meet a physician (and I ask all I've met in the last year or two) if they actually use any of the physics or organic chemistry they had to take So far, a solid zero for needing it for anything (even, oddly enough, from a radiologist).

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Fine (I'm an engineer, so it was all calc based for me) but keep in mind, calc based physics won't help (and might even hurt) on the MCAT, where it's not even precise physics they're interested in.

And, I've yet to meet a physician (and I ask all I've met in the last year or two) if they actually use any of the physics or organic chemistry they had to take So far, a solid zero for needing it for anything (even, oddly enough, from a radiologist).

I don't see how calc-based physics could "hurt" anyone taking the MCAT. I believe it was helpful to me and some of my friends when we took the MCAT. Maybe you could expound on that point.

And yes, physics is important in medical school, and in residency. It is helpful for understanding a lot of basic physiology.

My point is simply that I am the type of person that likes a challenge, and one who likes to learn something as thoroughly as possible. I like learning for the sake of learning. Everything you learn is helpful to you as a person. I know that my russian courses weren't helpful to me for the MCAT, or in residency. However the russian that I now speak is helpful to me in many other ways. I didn't pick classes just because they were perceived as easier. I picked classes that I thought would be maximally educational, and rewarding.

If you're like me, then take calc-based physics. It really doesn't require much more of a time commitment than taking non-calc physics. If not, then take the other physics. But either way, good luck.

 

[flighterdoc]

I don't see how calc-based physics could "hurt" anyone taking the MCAT. I believe it was helpful to me and some of my friends when we took the MCAT. Maybe you could expound on that point.

And yes, physics is important in medical school, and in residency. It is helpful for understanding a lot of basic physiology.

My point is simply that I am the type of person that likes a challenge, and one who likes to learn something as thoroughly as possible. I like learning for the sake of learning. Everything you learn is helpful to you as a person. I know that my russian courses weren't helpful to me for the MCAT, or in residency. However the russian that I now speak is helpful to me in many other ways. I didn't pick classes just because they were perceived as easier. I picked classes that I thought would be maximally educational, and rewarding.

If you're like me, then take calc-based physics. It really doesn't require much more of a time commitment than taking non-calc physics. If not, then take the other physics. But either way, good luck.

It could (could) hurt if you're not completely comfortable with the principles of physics, and are relying on prep courses to gut it through. The prep courses (and the MCAT) don't use calc based solutions, they don't even use the correct constants (G does not equal 10 M/sec, for example). So, if you're not completely at ease with the material, attempting to relate the stuff you may have not learned well in calc based physics will lead you astray.

At any rate, there is no benefit in calc for the MCAT.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

It could (could) hurt if you're not completely comfortable with the principles of physics, and are relying on prep courses to gut it through. The prep courses (and the MCAT) don't use calc based solutions, they don't even use the correct constants (G does not equal 10 M/sec, for example). So, if you're not completely at ease with the material, attempting to relate the stuff you may have not learned well in calc based physics will lead you astray.

If you successfully complete calc-based physics, you will be "completely comfortable with the principles" of physics, because you will not just memorize some formulas, but will actually understand the physics. Cacl-based physics will give you a much better comprehension of physics. If you get through any physics class and can't figure out something as basic as the MCAT rounding the value of G, then you have more to worry about than if knowing calclulus is going to "hurt" you.

At any rate, there is no benefit in calc for the MCAT.

Actually, there is benefit in knowing calculus for the MCAT. (Yes, I can be as dogmatic as you can be).

 

[Treese]

I?m not sure if Chen Chem. is the pre-req for Organic Chem. And I will not be taking Organic Chem. 1 & 2; I?m just taking 1 and then taking Biochemistry for the second part. I have contacted the schools I wanted to attend and they are ok with this.

This semester I?m taking Physics 2 w. lab, Human Anatomy & Physiology w. lab, and Microbiology w lab. I did not take Biology; due to the fact most of the schools I want to attend told me to take the higher classes of Biology instead of the lower level. All they asked me was did I have a back ground in Biology, which I did in high school I took AP Biology and AP Chem. So I?m hoping I can do the same thing when it comes to Chem. as I did with Biology.

By the way for all that was asking if you can take more then one science and work full time, I?m doing it, plus taking 3 other classes, and I?m passing them all. I?m not going to lie it is hard work, but if you put your mind and heart into it, you can do it. Oh and all top of all of that I?m a single mom. So good luck to all.

Thanks for being that up, I will check into it.

 

[flighterdoc]

I?m not sure if Chen Chem. is the pre-req for Organic Chem. And I will not be taking Organic Chem. 1 & 2; I?m just taking 1 and then taking Biochemistry for the second part. I have contacted the schools I wanted to attend and they are ok with this.

This semester I?m taking Physics 2 w. lab, Human Anatomy & Physiology w. lab, and Microbiology w lab. I did not take Biology; due to the fact most of the schools I want to attend told me to take the higher classes of Biology instead of the lower level. All they asked me was did I have a back ground in Biology, which I did in high school I took AP Biology and AP Chem. So I?m hoping I can do the same thing when it comes to Chem. as I did with Biology.

By the way for all that was asking if you can take more then one science and work full time, I?m doing it, plus taking 3 other classes, and I?m passing them all. I?m not going to lie it is hard work, but if you put your mind and heart into it, you can do it. Oh and all top of all of that I?m a single mom. So good luck to all.

Thanks for being that up, I will check into it.

GenChem is a prereq for Org Chem - some schools may only require 1 semester of GChem, but most require both. Biochem will probably be more useful than another semester of O-chem, btw, so good choice.

And, keep up the good work!

 

[flighterdoc]

If you successfully complete calc-based physics, you will be "completely comfortable with the principles" of physics, because you will not just memorize some formulas, but will actually understand the physics. Cacl-based physics will give you a much better comprehension of physics. If you get through any physics class and can't figure out something as basic as the MCAT rounding the value of G, then you have more to worry about than if knowing calclulus is going to "hurt" you.



Actually, there is benefit in knowing calculus for the MCAT. (Yes, I can be as dogmatic as you can be).

OK, we can agree to disagree then.