Cebu Doctor's College vs. Cebu Institute of Medicine

[gil t azel]

Hello. Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of Cebu Doctor's College and Cebu Institute of Medicine? Thanks.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[savi]

Just their links...

But try not to judge a school by its website...

Cebu Doc
http://www.cdc-cdh.edu/colleges/medicine/

CIM
http://www.cim.edu.ph/

 

[tantrum]

Hello. Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of Cebu Doctor's College and Cebu Institute of Medicine? Thanks.

CIM has a better reputation in the Philippines in terms of Board passing. However from previous posts, it seems that Cebu Doctors have slightly better facilities (air-conditioned rooms). Either one of them should be ok for a motivated student.

 

[TheDervish]

Cebu is supposed to be a beautiful island at least

 

[yourmom]

Hello. Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of Cebu Doctor's College and Cebu Institute of Medicine? Thanks.

Hello gil t azel! I believe we are both searching for the same information regarding CDU and CIM. Have you heard anything else that is helpful?

 

[gil t azel]

Hello gil t azel! I believe we are both searching for the same information regarding CDU and CIM. Have you heard anything else that is helpful?

No, just the info from those 2 websites above.

 

[savi]

No, just the info from those 2 websites above.

Hi!

I have some friends who graduated from CIM. Their opinions are very different...
The young ones (graduated within the past 5 years) have not so great feedback about their training. They say that it "unnecessarily" makes the training hard
The older more established doctors (consultants, residents, etc) advise me to go to CIM bec they say that although the training is really tough, one can be sure that the education is all worth it.
So, you can see that although both groups have different feelings toward CIM, both agree about the tough training.
ad hominem on the opinions?

There was a member on this forum who's a first year at CIM, and gave good feedback about her year so far.
I visited Cebu Doc and CIM last Dec. Cebu Doc does have more modern buildings and the air-con that was sooooo..... coooooold
CIM looked old but I didn't get inside a classroom.

P.S. No doctor I've asked so far, has recommended Cebu Doc to me.

 

[gil t azel]

Hi!

I have some friends who graduated from CIM. Their opinions are very different...
The young ones (graduated within the past 5 years) have not so great feedback about their training. They say that it "unnecessarily" makes the training hard
The older more established doctors (consultants, residents, etc) advise me to go to CIM bec they say that although the training is really tough, one can be sure that the education is all worth it.
So, you can see that although both groups have different feelings toward CIM, both agree about the tough training.
ad hominem on the opinions?

There was a member on this forum who's a first year at CIM, and gave good feedback about her year so far.
I visited Cebu Doc and CIM last Dec. Cebu Doc does have more modern buildings and the air-con that was sooooo..... coooooold
CIM looked old but I didn't get inside a classroom.

P.S. No doctor I've asked so far, has recommended Cebu Doc to me.

Thanks for the info Savi. How were you able to see Cebu Doctors? Did you arrange a tour? Do you happen to know the donation fee for any of them?

 

[savi]

Thanks for the info Savi. How were you able to see Cebu Doctors? Did you arrange a tour? Do you happen to know the donation fee for any of them?

I took the NMAT in Cebu Doc last Dec, and was freezing for several hours inside the classroom. CIM, I only went for an interview. I don't know about the donation fee (usually for foreign students?) bec I'm a local applicant.

For CIM, you pay Php 200 for the application form, I also didn't see any info about a donation fee. The admissions chair told me the Php200 is enough for processing the application. Prob the foreign and local students pay the same fees.
I'll just give you this email add: [email protected] to refer your questions there or call (032) 253-7412 that's the Dean's office.

 

[serenity08]

I've posted at another discussion somewhere here...about the pros and cons between the two schools...well, I've contacted both schools for info and Cebu Doc seems to be more expensive than CIM...just because of the new facilities and such. Depending on your citizenship status...student visa vs. dual citizenship..the tuition will vary since fil-am students that file for dual citizenship won't be charged with foreign student fee.


It really depends on your personal preference really...both schools are good, but CIM have an excellent reputation in its training and theory classes..which is evident with it ranking in the top 3 of the philippine medical board exams. I have heard so much about it as being a really tough school. But if one wants a more updated facility and cleaner and airconditioned rooms then Cebu Doctor's will be your best choice. I've heard that it's the school of the elite around Cebu...but the training is not that good although it has the latest medical equipment.


That's most of the info I think is what you guys need...but if you have more question...just message me.

 

[gibbarBSN]

Hello. Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of Cebu Doctor's College and Cebu Institute of Medicine? Thanks.

XU-JPRCM did well in the national.. uhmm it's some sort of a quiz bee of med students from different schools all over the philippines. <it's the first atenean med school and the first jesuit uiniversity in mindanao> they offer a lot of scholarships both funded and academic. although they managed to earn a reputation in the local boards. the no. of examinees are low ranging from 10-15 examinees tsk tsk..

u got the chance to choose ur school huh.. i got speculations if i could qualify for med shool. im gonna take the nmat by december this year.

 

[gibbarBSN]

what's the national passing of NMAT exam? hehe tanx

 

[tantrum]

what's the national passing of NMAT exam? hehe tanx

As you will find out later, many schools dont have any strict cutoff score due to the lack of applicants. Of course, try to do well so you can get admitted to selective schools (UST has 65 for cutoff) but you can go to med school with any score.

 

[baging]

Thanks for the info Savi. How were you able to see Cebu Doctors? Did you arrange a tour? Do you happen to know the donation fee for any of them?

No donation fee for CIM . The standard donation fee for foreign students would be around 1,000 USD per sem or something like that. But you might get more info by inquiring these schools by e-mail.

 

[phlipsquad]

No donation fee for CIM . The standard donation fee for foreign students would be around 1,000 USD per sem or something like that. But you might get more info by inquiring these schools by e-mail.

Wow thats great! No Donation fee. What do you mean by standard donation fee..... Phil schools in general?

 

[chaton]

Hello. Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of Cebu Doctor's College and Cebu Institute of Medicine? Thanks.

hi gil!

speaking from a local's point of view, you can never go wrong with either of these schools..both schools have earned very good reputations here in cebu and even in the national spectrum..

coming from a family of doctors,however,has given me another persprective in looking at these very fine institutions..

CIM provides quality training to all its students..yes,i agree that its training is relatively harder than other medical schools, but doesn't this statement alone say something about its graduates? the training the graduates of CIM have undergone ensures the general public that they are in the hands of capable individuals..

the building and facility may put you off.. but the quality education provided by the very able faculty is sure to compensate for the "ghostly" ambiance of its buildings..

on the other hand, if you want to be in the center of cebu's premiere socialites, then i guess you're better off in cebu doctor's university..their up-to-date facilities (including air-conditioned rooms) have attracted the rich and the elite..the upper class if i may..

but again, you can never go wrong with either..

hope i helped you in some way or another..

 

[ecpono]

I'm a freshman at Cebu Institute of Medicine.. This is our second week of class and I feel like I've been studying for weeks already. In CIM, you really have to read and understand a lot especially becasue of the PBL method that they have adapted recently.

It's true that the training here is tough. The rules are strict. Some people even say that it's like going back to grade school.. Hehe But hey, if you really are looking for a good future medical practice, then CIM would be the school for you. If you are determined to be one of the best then CIM would be the best choice.

I beg to disagree that most of Cebu's elite go to Cebu Doctor's to study medicine. Most people only go there because they are afraid of the CIM challenge. State-of-the-art facilities cannot compensate for the training that the students are getting. We also have several foreign students in CIM who think the buildings are not conducive to learning but they believe with the kind of training and all, CIM will ensure them of a better chance at passing the board exams.

CIM

 

[Juve]

This info are so helpful in my quest to find the best med school outside manila, I never been in Cebu but always hear good stuff about it.

 

[jetskiters]

hey hey hey!

i'm from cebu and i have to say you guys have given pretty good pros and cons for both schools. CIM has a very good reputation when it comes to board performance, but Cebu Doc has better facilities...

i'd say you go for the school you think would suit you... a student's hard work and determination also matters, aside from what the school can provide, right?

 

[marbok3891]

I enrolled in CIM because of its board passing track record, it ranks second only to UP-PGH. I have to say that in my first few weeks at CIM I was filled with despair. The facilities were dismal - 'lacking' is a better term, and their implementation of the Problem Based Learning (PBL) system didn't seem well executed to me. We were the 6th batch of PBL students and I guess there were still some kinks in the new system that they had to figure out. In all fairness to the faculty, they put a lot of effort in ironing out the problems that arise with PBL. The facilities are also being upgraded right now! I'm finally seeing some hope in my decision to come to CIM.

The latest board passing rate for the school was 97%! The doctors who took that particular board exam were the last of the school's graduates of the Traditional system (non-PBL). The upcoming board exam will be taken by CIM's 1st batch of PBL students, so we'll see how well they do...

With regards to CDC, they have state of the art facilities. I'll grant them that, but I never considered going there because they are nowhere near the top 10 medical schools in the country.

 

[marbok3891]

what's the national passing of NMAT exam? hehe tanx

There's really not a national passing per se, coz its a percentile ranking... All the examinees are ranked in percentile based on their scores. Some medschools will have a cut off, like UP-PGH will only accept those with 90 and above NMAT scores because that means those students are in the top 10%. CIM doesn't have a cut-off

 

[marbok3891]

u got the chance to choose ur school huh.. i got speculations if i could qualify for med shool. im gonna take the nmat by december this year.

Good luck on your NMAT! Don't worry too much about it. Just keep in mind that the subjects covered in NMAT aren't really healthcare topics, so don't focus too much on that. It's more of the basics: chem, bio, physics, verbal acuity, math, social sciences etc... Again, Good luck!

 

[Juve]

I enrolled in CIM because of its board passing track record, it ranks second only to UP-PGH. I have to say that in my first few weeks at CIM I was filled with despair. The facilities were dismal - 'lacking' is a better term, and their implementation of the Problem Based Learning (PBL) system didn't seem well executed to me. We were the 6th batch of PBL students and I guess there were still some kinks in the new system that they had to figure out. In all fairness to the faculty, they put a lot of effort in ironing out the problems that arise with PBL. The facilities are also being upgraded right now! I'm finally seeing some hope in my decision to come to CIM.

The latest board passing rate for the school was 97%! The doctors who took that particular board exam were the last of the school's graduates of the Traditional system (non-PBL). The upcoming board exam will be taken by CIM's 1st batch of PBL students, so we'll see how well they do...

With regards to CDC, they have state of the art facilities. I'll grant them that, but I never considered going there because they are nowhere near the top 10 medical schools in the country.

According to some old post they said taht CDC was number 9 in the nation, is that true? I'm actually excited to visit CIM, I was planning to visit the school in couple of months. I am curious about the facilities that you are talking about, is it really that bad? Are the faculty very knowledgeable and helpful? I'll appreciate your reply.

 

[jetskiters]

well guys, just thought you'd find this article interesting:

3 Cebu Students in Top 10 of board exams for doctors (August 19, 2006)

wooohooo! proud to be Cebuano!

 

[RaaMD]

well guys, just thought you'd find this article interesting:

3 Cebu Students in Top 10 of board exams for doctors (August 19, 2006)

wooohooo! proud to be Cebuano!

Fantastic Story.

 

[mafel]

---can anyone tell me how much is the tuition fee for cim and cebu doc?thank you very much...

 

[acaddoc]

I am a UP-PGH grad and used to teach at cebu doc and must say that I am not proud of that school. There are definitely some good teachers and some good students, but I feel that the educational standards of the university need to be raised significantly if they are to match the country's top schools. During my 2 1/2 year stint, I was not impressed by the general attitude of students towards learning and the hard work required of any self-respecting medical student. Same for the other cebu doc colleges. It is a shame, because considering the high tuition fees, they could afford to do much more than build facilities.

Of course, I can't fully recommend CIM either, as I have had only had rare exposures to their students. However, if I were to compare their graduates who went into residency with those of cebu doc, the CIM grads/residents definitely outshone the cebu doc grads.

 

[LocutusofBorg]

On the basis of my interviews only, CIM is much more impressive than CDU. My issues with CDU include:
1) Their new PBL system hasn't been ranked yet, since their first batch of PBL students will only be taking their boards this year.
2) Their system is lax - after 12PM you are generally free to go and "study" with your group anywhere. Freedom is good if you are an individual, but who wants to be the party pooper telling your group to meet you and study, when they all want to go to a movie? Your success would depend heavily on group dynamics.
3) Twice the price of CIM

However, to be fair to CDU, their advantages include:
1) MRI machine and all-in-house labwork. For advanced labwork, CIM contracts japanese labs.
2) For US students, CDU allows the full 4th year to be spent in US hospital rotations. For CIM, the allowed time is about 3 months.

In my personal choice, i am starting to lean toward CIM...

 

[mSbehavin84]

im'a be admitting myself to cdu-cm this summer.. took my pre-med there, i think the school's doing just fine, it's pretty hard to compare to UP's standards, let's do cdu-cm some fair justice its not like acaddoc've experienced CIM personally himself.

 

[LocutusofBorg]

im'a be admitting myself to cdu-cm this summer.. took my pre-med there, i think the school's doing just fine, it's pretty hard to compare to UP's standards, let's do cdu-cm some fair justice its not like acaddoc've experienced CIM personally himself.

I agree, I think every school is good on its own merits. It's not the rank of the school that counts, but how well it matches to your personal goals, study habits, and expectations. If pressed, I can't really say that I would NOT attend any of the schools I've interviewed at (UERM, CIM, CDU) if it were my only choice. The school is just a venue, the studying is all up to the individual.

 

[clc25]

well, in my opinion, it depends on the student. i'm from CIM, but let's be fair to CDU.
CIM is one of the centers of excellence, but the facilities are not much to brag about.
CDU has great facilities and they didn't do bad in the board exams as well.
if you're trying to compare as to the training, i would say CIM is better in that aspect, they really drill you in the senior clerkship (4th year).
both are in the PBL system though.
CDU is also more expensive than CIM.
CDU also has more free time than CIM, in the PBL system, CIM students are required to come back in the afternoon for group sessions, but CDU students are free in the afternoon to have 'independent study period'

i have friends in CDU and they are definitely less pressured and not as drained as we are in CIM.

despite the facilities, the drilling, the difficulties, being second to UP in the board exam makes CIM my choice, that's why i'm there =)
but then again, that's just me

 

[UIC Killa]

Hello. Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of Cebu Doctor's College and Cebu Institute of Medicine? Thanks.

I have no idea about these schools, but I just wanted to chime in and say that I love Cebu!! I was born in palompon, leyte and I was raised in Cebu...I think my mom went to the University of Visayas or something (nursing)...anyway..good luck to all of you that will be matriculating and applying there. I wish I was back the in philippines ...I was very fortunate to have been accepted to a med school here in the US but I definitely plan on returning and helping out my old country.

 

[LocutusofBorg]

As someone who just visited the Philippines for the first time in his life (I am not a fil-am!), I have to say that Cebu was love at first site. Although I loved some parts Manila also (or, rather, Quezon City and San Juan areas around UE) I think Cebu is, overall, a great place to live and study. I look forward to coming back there...

 

[Cretinoid]

thank you so much for the insights.

i am an incoming med student this june and i intend to study here in cebu., although i graduated from up diliman. but i am having a hard time deciding where to enroll. im still waiting for CIM to release their results for qualified applicants (im done with their interview already). and i have been already accepted at Cebu Doctors' - their admission process got me by surprise. upon submitting the requirements, i was then immediately interviewed by the dean and at the end of the interview, he told me that i was accepted and that i could already enroll. that was really fast! i wonder if everyone who applied got his/her results immediately.

is CIM really strict with their application requirements, e.g NMAT score, GWA, and interview? how many students do they usually accept each year? basing on the pros and cons presented here, i am leaning towards CIM. being doctors, my parents have also encouraged me to enroll in CIM if ever i get accepted. but i have also heard from my cousins who are currently enrolled there that they prioritize students from velez college. how true is this? as an "outsider", what are my chances that i get accepted at CIM?

thanks for your possible insights.

 

[LocutusofBorg]

thank you so much for the insights.

i am an incoming med student this june and i intend to study here in cebu., although i graduated from up diliman. but i am having a hard time deciding where to enroll. im still waiting for CIM to release their results for qualified applicants (im done with their interview already). and i have been already accepted at Cebu Doctors' - their admission process got me by surprise. upon submitting the requirements, i was then immediately interviewed by the dean and at the end of the interview, he told me that i was accepted and that i could already enroll. that was really fast! i wonder if everyone who applied got his/her results immediately.

is CIM really strict with their application requirements, e.g NMAT score, GWA, and interview? how many students do they usually accept each year? basing on the pros and cons presented here, i am leaning towards CIM. being doctors, my parents have also encouraged me to enroll in CIM if ever i get accepted. but i have also heard from my cousins who are currently enrolled there that they prioritize students from velez college. how true is this? as an "outsider", what are my chances that i get accepted at CIM?

thanks for your possible insights.

I was accepted to CDU right after the "interview" as well. Interview is in quotes because it wasn't really one. They asked if i have any questions, and told me I was accepted. CIM accepted me also, in spite of my low GPA. However, that was after 1.5 hours of grilling on the subject of my bad undergraduate performance .

 

[Cretinoid]

CIM accepted me also, in spite of my low GPA. However, that was after 1.5 hours of grilling on the subject of my bad undergraduate performance .

really? they confirmed your application right after the interview?

 

[Cretinoid]

I was accepted to CDU right after the "interview" as well. Interview is in quotes because it wasn't really one. They asked if i have any questions, and told me I was accepted. CIM accepted me also, in spite of my low GPA. However, that was after 1.5 hours of grilling on the subject of my bad undergraduate performance .

what year are you now? im really confused right now, i hope you can share your insights on CIM. im torn in choosing between CIM and UST. i got accepted at UST and i still have to wait for CIM results. are you originally from cebu? what made you decide to enroll at CIM?

 

[AlleghenyPOD]

I would have to vote for Cebu Doctors because we have alot of Filipino surgeons in the Virtua-West Jersey Hospital System as well as really renowned infectious diseases specialists and GI/Gastros in ACMC that graduated from Cebu Doctors.

Filipino doctors and Filipino nurses are considered 'elite' medical professionals in my book.

 

[erin boriiss]

The following webpage is in reference to the Physician Licensure Examinations given last February 2007:

http://www.slu.edu.ph/exam_pdf/physician_200701.pdf

here, you can see that the only medical schools in the philippines with 100% passing rate are:

1. Ateneo de Manila University-Quezon City
2. Cebu Institute of Medicine
3. Fatima Medical Science Institution- Valenzuela
4. Iligan Institure of Technology
5. Pamantasan ng Lungsod ng Maynila
6. University of the Philippines- Manila

This isn't to say that CIM is really better than CDU in terms of training, but over the years, it HAS earned itself a very good reputation both internationally and locally...CDU's performance isn't too bad, with a performance rating of 85%...


I am in my 4th year pre-med in Velez College, which is located alongside and is connected directly to CIM. while i might be a bit biased, i really would recommend CIM for those who would want to take up medicine. i have been in hospital rotations for the past year and a half, and the doctors in Velez Hospital (the primary training ground of the CIM students) are top-notch. many of them have offices and successful practices not only in Velez, but other tertiary hospitals in the city. true, the facilities are not much to look at, but there are renovations being done at the moment. the classrooms are not aircon, the hospital might seem old. but the training is real, and the dedication of the doctors here to medicine still thrives.


recently, i also had the privilege to tour the facilities of the new cebu doctor's university campus located in mandaue, cebu city. it literally took my breath away! the inside looks like something from an airplane terminal. their building is five stories high, dedicated to the various medical courses offered by the university. their classrooms are airconditioned, well-lit. facilities, library, everything seems to be very modern training ground for the aspiring 21st century-doctor.

personally, i have yet to make a choice between the two top medical institutions in cebu city. my two brothers are currently enrolled in cebu doctor's university, and tell me to enroll there. meanwhile, my friends in velez all plan to enroll in CIM because of the respect the institution commands.

 

[Cretinoid]

The following webpage is in reference to the Physician Licensure Examinations given last February 2007:

http://www.slu.edu.ph/exam_pdf/physician_200701.pdf

here, you can see that the only medical schools in the philippines with 100% passing rate are:

1. Ateneo de Manila University-Quezon City
2. Cebu Institute of Medicine
3. Fatima Medical Science Institution- Valenzuela
4. Iligan Institure of Technology
5. Pamantasan ng Lungsod ng Maynila
6. University of the Philippines- Manila



you have to check out the PDF file to get a clearer view of the picture. a 100% passing rate does not mean a perfectly excellent performance. you also have to consider the number of people from that certain school who took the exam, both repeaters and first-time takers.

i wonder why AdMU-Quezon City is on the list. ASMPH is just about to open this june.

 

[elatedMD]

i wonder why AdMU-Quezon City is on the list. ASMPH is just about to open this june.[/quote]

 

[rescyth]

"P.S. No doctor I've asked so far, has recommended Cebu Doc to me."

**** YOU!

 

[endograsper]

i wonder why AdMU-Quezon City is on the list. ASMPH is just about to open this june.

[/quote]

o O...

------------------------

re: cebu doc or cim... apples to oranges?

 

[bleudsky]

The following webpage is in reference to the Physician Licensure Examinations given last February 2007:

http://www.slu.edu.ph/exam_pdf/physician_200701.pdf

here, you can see that the only medical schools in the philippines with 100% passing rate are:

1. Ateneo de Manila University-Quezon City
2. Cebu Institute of Medicine
3. Fatima Medical Science Institution- Valenzuela
4. Iligan Institure of Technology
5. Pamantasan ng Lungsod ng Maynila
6. University of the Philippines- Manila

i came across this thread just now. i don't believe what's listed there. wherever you got that, it's not credible nor reliable. maybe it was referring to another profession, & not medicine.

ADMU-Quezon city and Iligan Institute of Technology are included?! who are you fooling?!

like someone else said, Ateneo School of Medicine & Public Health just started this june. Thus, their 1st batch of medical graduates will only be eligible to take the local licensure exams on 2012.

Iligan institute of technology does NOT have a medical school.

 

[tantrum]

i came across this thread just now. i don't believe what's listed there. wherever you got that, it's not credible nor reliable. maybe it was referring to another profession, & not medicine.

ADMU-Quezon city and Iligan Institute of Technology are included?! who are you fooling?!

like someone else said, Ateneo School of Medicine & Public Health just started this june. Thus, their 1st batch of medical graduates will only be eligible to take the local licensure exams on 2012.

Iligan institute of technology does NOT have a medical school.

Most likely there was a lot of error in that list, especially with Ateneo on the list.
The Iligan Institute of Tech is a consortium with MSU, so they should have listed it as MSU-IIT. MSU is the actual med school.

 

[bleudsky]

ok maybe they should have written it that way, knowing PRC (if that came from PRC which i doubt).

 

[elatedMD]

its not the school, its the student..

 

[LocutusofBorg]

I included school rank as a factor in choosing a med school to attend in the Philippines and got burned. Here is the sad truth as I see it: rank says very little about the quality of education. The greater factors, in my opinion, that influence rank are 1) the preparation of students who enroll, and 2) the way in which the school passes and fails its students. A school who will give a struggling student a chance to improve, for example, would not find itself in the top ranks for the simple reason that this very student is more likely to fail the first time around. Does it mean that the quality of education is woirse for the other students? Probably not so.

When it comes to CIM and Cebu Doc, education is very very different there (there are almost no lectures in the PBL curriculum!). Now, without lectures, you are basically on your own, and it's about 90% personal study skills and 10% your groupmates that will either make you succeed or not. Other schools, such as Southwestern and University of the Visayas here in Cebu are not on the list of top schools, but they offer lectures and explanations to their students.

Which will ultimately give you a better education? For me, i realized that rank will not help me in my studies, but a lecture might. A traditional education doesn't prevent me from studying on my own, and uses the same textbooks as PBL - but if I need extra help, it's there! Ultimately I don't give a rats ass about my school rank. All I care about is how I'll do on the boards, and how I will REALLY UNDERSTAND my material for the benefit of my future patients.

It feels good when you are accepted to a top ranked school. But to me the most important factor is how well a school teaches, not how well its graduates do on the boards. Do teachers start lecture on time? Do lectures cover the more important, more difficult topics? Are the lectures in standard english or taglish/bisaglish? Are professors available after lecture to answer questions? Are board shelf questions available for students to browse? These are some of the questions id ask older students and faculty. Rank just isn't worth much compared to that, in my opinion.

 

[Saipan]

?

 

[Saipan]

I included school rank as a factor in choosing a med school to attend in the Philippines and got burned. Here is the sad truth as I see it: rank says very little about the quality of education.

Ditto....school rankings are nonsense. They don't work in other countries and they don't work here.

Hey, LoB, have you been spending all your time in the library? How's the hand laundry going?