Catholic Pharmacist?

[WVUPharm2007]

I posted this on my blog back in 2007. I still pretty much agree with myself. lol...

Saturday, April 14, 2007
Morality is stupid - a long, rambling nonsensical diddy on Plan B.

I hate politics.

I need to get that out of the way first so that nobody thinks I have an agenda of some sort. If I'm asked if I'm a Democrat or a Republican, I typically respond by saying, "No. Hell, no."

I hate politics because it winds up being a contest of double-speak between two large groups of people whom believe their arbitrary beliefs are intrinsically ethically and morally superior and that the other "side" is basically the ultimate manifestation of evil. And what do I mean by this? Take the Republicans. Why the hell is their basic belief one of Christianity, domestic "free-market" economics, states' rights, and the use of military hegemony to help perpetuate an international economy that borders feudalism towards third world labor? What the hell do they all have in common? Jesus was a freakin' Marxist that wouldn't have said one bad word to Iraq, let alone blown the whole country to hell.

Anyway, so what am I getting at?

Well, there has been this struggle for some time between the leftists and the rightists in the US over pharmacists' right to refuse doling out certain prescriptions, namely Plan B. Recently in Washington, something has come up the pike about this very issue. Here is an excerpt from a news article:
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Board requires pharmacies to fill all orders
Objections by druggists centered on Plan B drug

TUMWATER -- After years of debate, the state has made it official: Patients must get prescriptions filled even if pharmacists are opposed to the drugs for religious or moral reasons.

The Washington State Board of Pharmacy voted unanimously Thursday to adopt a policy that applies to all kinds of medications, although it clearly was aimed at Plan B, a birth control measure that critics say is tantamount to abortion. Most health experts refute that claim.

Druggists with personal objections to a drug still could have a limited escape by getting a co-worker to fill an order. But that would apply only if the patient is able to get the prescription in the same pharmacy visit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, yeah, I want to tell the world my unique spin on the issue. And kinda like those journals you read in pharmacy school, I'm just revealing all of my affiliations....k?

Ok, so. Affiliations. I have no political party because, as illustrated above, I think they are counterintuitive towards independent and critical thought. Sometimes religion is talked about. So, yeah, I have no religion. I don't really care about it. I'm gonna be a pharmacist here pretty soon, so I guess that might affect my opinion. So no political party, no religion, profession in question. That's only a little tad bit of bias.

That's a lot of rambling up there. To my point, I hate that there are people in the country that try to legislate morality. Morality is an interesting subject because it is one of those abstract ideals that can't be quantified. Is an abortion wrong? Is gay marriage wrong? Is Marijuana use wrong? Is polygamy wrong? Is operating a sweat shop wrong? Some would say they are all wrong, some would say they are all ok, some would have mixed feelings. And guess what - that's ok - it all depends on your own personal morals. My problem with the system is that people are getting pissed off over the morality of other people. So what if Don and John down the streen get married? So what if Harry down the street has 43 wives? So what if Timmy down the street lights up a doobie at while resting alone at home? How the hell does any of that affect you? Yet we have laws against polygamy and gays getting married and using marijuana - even though these acts have zero negative effect on others in society. My personal opinion is that it is absolutely ******ed to legislate morality. It destroys the freedom of one person and does nothing to the collective freedom of society.

Ah, but the question of dispensing Plan B is more complex than that. It is a unique problem that has no solution that doesn't royally **** over the autonomy of one person or the other. It's quite simple actually. You have a girl that had unprotected sex. Was she irresponsible? Was she raped? Who knows. You are a pharmacist. She comes to you with a script for Plan B - a drug that inhibits the progression of the result of a fun night in the back of a Buick into a full-on pregnancy. You are a Buddhist pharmacist and you believe in killing no living thing, nor in participating in anything linked to the act.

But - what do you do? Do you violate your internal beliefs and concepts or do you just go ahead and do it because it's your job?

And you know what...albeit I practice no religion, I CAN SEE their point. I'm actually one empathetic mofo. I can really see how the religious would get in a hizzy when confronted with the possibility of violating their religion.

On the flip side. Say you are a girl. You just got raped. Not pleasant. You slowly drag yourself to the ER. You feel like crap. You feel used, embarrassed, and weak. They examine you and give you a script for emergency contraception. You walk down to CVS and the guy behind the counter tells you he can't fill it because he thinks it's unethical. Talk about being kicked while you are down. You are angry, maybe sad.

So who is right? No matter the solution, it's wrong. Force the pharmacist to dispense? Wrong. Block a patient from receiving urgent meds? Wrong. So what do you do? Well, you try to figure out who is the least wrong. So what's the least wrong? If you are in a large city, going to a different pharmacy isn't that big of a deal, so the pharmacist would be more wronged if he/she was forced to dispense when a solution suiting both parties is available. However, if you are in Wyoming and the pharmacist mans the only pharmacy in a 200 mile radius and the patient is 15 with no transportation, it is the patient who would be more wronged if the pharmacist refused to dispense.

So what's the answer? **** if I know, that's what. And any logical human being would come to the same conclusion. It's a gray area...something idiots that are all into politics fear because they can't be "right" no matter how hard they try. Yet we have leftists claiming the other side is completely idiotic and unethical, and the rightists vice-versa. Guess what douchebags, you're both being idiotic and unethical. As freakin' usual. But it clearly shows my biggest beef with politics - the insistence that every damn issue be taken with such a black vs. white tilt. That's how it always is - us vs. them, good vs. evil. Guess what. There is no us or them. There is no such thing as good or evil. They are just societal constructs that **** with objectivity.

God I hate politics.....I need a drink....**** it, I'm gonna go draw some more stick figure cartoons. I'll let some other poor putz figure it out.

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[WestTXisGr8]

That's not what she means. She means she feels she has to dispense contraception in that case but still feels it is against her "beliefs".

She has a right to her "beliefs". She doesn't have a right to condemn anyone, which I don't think she is doing.

 

[Regnvejr]

they way you even talk show no respect to other people views.

I just don't do well with lack of honest and open, factual discussions.

What is "please go peddle that crap somewhere else"? where? in the psychiatry forum, is there such thing?

Allow me to rephrase. "please go peddle that crap to someone else."

At least show some respect to people who are talking about a very important subject that you may never have to face as in psychiatry.

Hmm, what did you think I face in psychiatry? No unwanted pregnancy, rape, sexual abuse, no personal crises? My patients have no chaos or stress in their lives, everything goes great for them all the time?

 

[pharm093]

I know that's like shouting I'm a freaken hypocrite down to my hypocritical toes and being completely oblivious to it.

So he is against providing contraception to victims of rape but feels he has no choice ?

Once again, raped an incest are not something women openly chose to have. The resulting pregnancy and birth is terrible biologically and emotionally to everyone.

 

[pharm093]

I just don't do well with lack of honest and open, factual discussions.
Allow me to rephrase. "please go peddle that crap to someone else."
Hmm, what did you think I face in psychiatry? No unwanted pregnancy, rape, sexual abuse, no personal crises? My patients have no chaos or stress in their lives, everything goes great for them all the time?

you never have to write plan B prescription do you?
nor do you sell it?

 

[DeadliestSnatch]

Once again, raped an incest are not something women openly chose to have. The resulting pregnancy and birth is terrible biologically and emotionally to everyone.

...and being forced to carry a child to term that you DO NOT WANT isn't terrible?!

Women aren't incubators. Until that child exits the birth canal, my uterus is mine and mine alone. And thankfully, we live in America, where the law is on my side.

I pray (well, not really...I don't believe in an invisible patriarch in the sky) you don't even make it through Orgo, because people like you have no business in the medical community.

 

[Regnvejr]

No, I think what they were saying was that because they didn't make the choice to have sex and get pregnant, that they felt contraceptive would be permissible. Sex (and/or pregnancy) was forced upon them. It wasn't of their own free will and choice.

Yes, pharmacists as morality police.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...y+police%22&gbv=2&ndsp=20&hl=en&sa=N&start=20

 

[pharm093]

...and being forced to carry a child to term that you DO NOT WANT isn't terrible?!

Women aren't incubators. Until that child exits the birth canal, my uterus is mine and mine alone. And thankfully, we live in America, where the law is on my side.

I pray (well, not really...I don't believe in an invisible patriarch in the sky) you don't even make it through Orgo, because people like you have no business in the medical community.

I am so sorry you jumped into the discussion without reading my position in the issue. I was actually saying that in the case of rape and incest that it was entirely up to the woman.

Please do bash me when you don't even know what we were talking about for the last 30 minutes.

 

[WestTXisGr8]

...and being forced to carry a child to term that you DO NOT WANT isn't terrible?!

Women aren't incubators. Until that child exits the birth canal, my uterus is mine and mine alone. And thankfully, we live in America, where the law is on my side.

I pray (well, not really...I don't believe in an invisible patriarch in the sky) you don't even make it through Orgo, because people like you have no business in the medical community.

I'll say this again, you should not be condemned for your decisions or beliefs by any person. On the other side of that, if you want that right, then you in turn, cannot condemn another person for their decisions or beliefs. You can't have it one way and not the other.

We live in a world that is very diverse. We should be mature enough to live and communicate with others who have varied and different beliefs. We don't have to accept them as our own beliefs. We don't even have to feel that they are right. But we should be able to live with each other without condemning the other or wishing them bad.

Where is our compassion for each other?

 

[DeadliestSnatch]

I am so sorry you jumped into the discussion without reading my position in the issue. I was actually saying that in the case of rape and incest that it was entirely up to the woman.

...wow, you really ARE stupid. I read your position, *****. Let me make this clearer for you. Even if a woman chooses to HAVE CONSENSUAL SEX, being forced to carry a pregnancy to term that she DOES NOT WANT is still a terrible thing. I'm sorry you lack basic reading comprehension skills.

My uterus. Not yours. I get to decide if I want a child in it. And if I don't, out it f!cking goes.

 

[Regnvejr]

Once again, raped an incest are not something women openly chose to have. The resulting pregnancy and birth is terrible biologically and emotionally to everyone.

So are unwanted pregnancies. But I forgot, the ones not raped are just sluts and deserve punishment. What a lovely view of pregnancy. As a tool of oppression.

 

[Regnvejr]

you never have to write plan B prescription do you?

I have written several.

nor do you sell it?

I do not.

 

[Regnvejr]

I am so sorry you jumped into the discussion without reading my position in the issue. I was actually saying that in the case of rape and incest that it was entirely up to the woman.

And when she wasn't raped by daddy or the evil stranger in the bushes, then what? Then she deserves the punishment of an unwanted pregnancy as a reminder of her sluttiness? Then the full force of the patriarchal enslavement of women should be brought down on her head?

 

[UES Girl]

No , I think what they were saying was that because they didn't make the choice to have sex and get pregnant, that they felt contraceptive would be permissible. Sex (and/or pregnancy) was forced upon them. It wasn't of their own free will and choice.

I got that part that they feel it is permissible in some cases and not in others, what I wonder is exactly what Regnvjer was getting at: how hypocrytical it is that they feel it's ok to 'potentially terminate' pregnancy by dispensing plan b when sex was nonconsensual and not ok when it was.

Do you not see how it is ?


Meaning that the if they argue that by dispensing plan b they terminate a human life, why is it not hypocritical to terminate it under some circumstances but not in others ? Why is it that in some cases ( in the scenario of conceptual sex) human life (or embryo) weighs and in the case of nonconsensual they don't regard it in the same way ?

 

[Regnvejr]

...wow, you really ARE stupid. I read your position, *****. Let me make this clearer for you. Even if a woman chooses to HAVE CONSENSUAL SEX, being forced to carry a pregnancy to term that she DOES NOT WANT is still a terrible thing. I'm sorry you lack basic reading comprehension skills.

My uterus. Not yours. I get to decide if I want a child in it. And if I don't, out it f!cking goes.

 

[Jdario86]

I just don't do well with lack of honest and open, factual discussions.
Allow me to rephrase. "please go peddle that crap to someone else."
Hmm, what did you think I face in psychiatry? No unwanted pregnancy, rape, sexual abuse, no personal crises? My patients have no chaos or stress in their lives, everything goes great for them all the time?

 

[WestTXisGr8]

And when she wasn't raped by daddy or the evil stranger in the bushes, then what? Then she deserves the punishment of an unwanted pregnancy as a reminder of her sluttiness? Then the full force of the patriarchal enslavement of women should be brought down on her head?

She deserves the right to find a doctor or pharmacist who holds her same beliefs. She does not have the right to compromise my beliefs with her own. I do not have the right to condemn her for her decision.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Yes, pharmacists as morality police.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...y+police%22&gbv=2&ndsp=20&hl=en&sa=N&start=20

lol...this thread is hilairous. Dude is whining about desiring "facts" a few minutes ago, then tosses out the biggest strawman in three states. Yes. Pharmacists that refuse to dispense beat Iranian women. That's not a ridiculous slippery slope at all.

Hey, I got an idea...and this applies to everyone...instead of just trying to prove that your side is "right" (and neither side is 100% right, no matter how well any of you pretentiously blather on about it), how about you constructively come up with solutions to these problems that can be agreeable to both sides? Or do we still just want to look "right" and not actually accomplish anything? God help us everyone be happy...

 

[medicalCPA]

Has anyone noticed that the OP has not posted ANYTHING since his/her four posts at the beginning of this thread?


Troll, much?

 

[UES Girl]

Once again, raped an incest are not something women openly chose to have. The resulting pregnancy and birth is terrible biologically and emotionally to everyone.

Ok, I'll explain it in the utter most basic of terms, because either you are intentionally choosing to ignore these valid questions ( which I am inclined to believe because you see a serious flaw in your logic) or you are unable to answer them due to your lack of comrehension ( restricted capabilities, perhaps limited language or communication skills).

Woman A is violently raped and asks for plan b.

Woman B is in the loving caring relationship and asks for plan b.

So according to your hypocritical beliefs you will dispense it to woman A and not woman B. The reason why is because according to you woman A 'has no choice' to have sex but woman B does.

What I don't get - if your sole reason for not dispensing it to woman B is that you feel you are terminating the embryo or human life, how is it that you are ok with terminating it in the case of A. I mean sure, she didn't chose to have sex but the embryo hypothetically is just as human or viable as the one in woman B, so when dispensing to woman A you are going against your morals of taking away an innocent life and being a hypocrite because you are doing the very same thing you are advocaing against.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Has anyone noticed that the OP has not posted ANYTHING since his/her four posts at the beginning of this thread?


Troll, much?

Haha. Greatest troll in the history of the internet if premeditated as such.

 

[slight365]

Yeah, really it's a comparison that is not unlike the situation in Iran, Afghanistan, and other countries where women are second class citizens and subjected to all sorts of rules men make such as this.

If the op is so firm on his beliefs, why not convert?

I am so sorry you jumped into the discussion without reading my position in the issue. I was actually saying that in the case of rape and incest that it was entirely up to the woman.

And it's none of your business. A woman who wants Plan B doesn't have to tell you what it's for.

This guy sort of reminds me of an episode of family guy. Peter was in Afghanistan or something like that and some locals were after him. He yells "Look, a woman trying to get an education!" to distract the guy and then he gets away.

There's little difference between these mindsets, except one doesn't know they are of this mindset.

 

[DeadliestSnatch]

Hey, I got an idea...and this applies to everyone...instead of just trying to prove that your side is "right" (and neither side is 100% right, no matter how well any of you pretentiously blather on about it), how about you constructively come up with solutions to these problems that can be agreeable to both sides? Or do we still just want to look "right" and not actually accomplish anything? God help us everyone be happy...

Here's your solution: pharmacists should be required by law to dispense Plan B and BC whether they like it or not. If it's too emotionally damaging for them, they can find a different goddamn profession, or do research.

It is NOT as simple as finding another pharmacy if you're turned down the first time. Maybe you don't live in a rural area or the bible belt yourself, but plenty of women do. Oh, don't have a car to get to that other pharmacy? Well, f!ck you, you lazy slut. Now you get to have an abortion because you couldn't get emergency contraception in time! Can't pay for that 1st-trimester abortion? Well, too bad. You shouldn't have been born with a uterus!

 

[WestTXisGr8]

lol...this thread is hilairous. Dude is whining about desiring "facts" a few minutes ago, then tosses out the biggest strawman in three states. Yes. Pharmacists that refuse to dispense beat Iranian women. That's not a ridiculous slippery slope at all.

Hey, I got an idea...and this applies to everyone...instead of just trying to prove that your side is "right" (and neither side is 100% right, no matter how well any of you pretentiously blather on about it), how about you constructively come up with solutions to these problems that can be agreeable to both sides? Or do we still just want to look "right" and not actually accomplish anything? God help us everyone be happy...

I agree completely. As I said, we should be mature enough to work, serve, and communicate with people of different beliefs.

My beliefs are not necessarily right. But they are right for me. Your beliefs are not necessarily wrong, but they are wrong for me. It isn't up to us to determine right and wrong. It is beyond our capability, because to us, right and wrong, truth and lies, are based on perceptions.

I'm ok with saying you have the right to do what you feel is right. I have the right to do what I feel is right. You don't have the right to impose your beliefs on me or condemn me. I don't have the right to impose my beliefs on you or condemn you. It doesn't matter if you are the pharmacist and I am the patient, or vise versa.

Why is it all or nothing? Why is it I can't be a pharmacist if I won't compromise my right to my beliefs? I MUST see it their way in order for them to be happy. If that is the case, then that person needs some maturing.

Again, where is our compassion for each other?

 

[FarscapeGirl]

Once again, raped an incest are not something women openly chose to have. The resulting pregnancy and birth is terrible biologically and emotionally to everyone.

I'm not so sure about that. Women do choose to carry the fetus to term and end up loving that child or giving it up for adoption. I've even heard of women so against abortion that they believe it's 'God's will' that they got pregnant, even if it was through rape. I can't see it, but I have no issue that these women choose to carry the fetus to term. That is, provided that the resulting child is well-treated.

And how is a pregnancy and birth from rape any worse biologically than one from a loving partner??

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Yeah, really it's a comparison that is not unlike the situation in Iran, Afghanistan, and other countries where women are second class citizens and subjected to all sorts of rules men make such as this.

So if a Buddhist doesn't fill a script for Plan B and tells a guy to go across the street to another pharmacy to get it filled, he is as bad as a psychotic Iranian that beats women.

Yeah.

 

[Jdario86]

Here's your solution: pharmacists should be required by law to dispense Plan B and BC whether they like it or not. If it's too emotionally damaging for them, they can find a different goddamn profession, or do research.

It is NOT as simple as finding another pharmacy if you're turned down the first time. Maybe you don't live in a rural area yourself, but plenty of women do. Oh, don't have a car to get to that other pharmacy? Well, f!ck you, you lazy slut. Now you get to have an abortion because you couldn't get emergency contraception in time! Can't pay for that 1st-trimester abortion? Well, too bad. You shouldn't have been born with a uterus!

I second in that.

 

[WestTXisGr8]

Here's your solution: pharmacists should be required by law to dispense Plan B and BC whether they like it or not. If it's too emotionally damaging for them, they can find a different goddamn profession, or do research.

It is NOT as simple as finding another pharmacy if you're turned down the first time. Maybe you don't live in a rural area yourself, but plenty of women do. Oh, don't have a car to get to that other pharmacy? Well, f!ck you, you lazy slut. Now you get to have an abortion because you couldn't get emergency contraception in time! Can't pay for that 1st-trimester abortion? Well, too bad. You shouldn't have been born with a uterus!

I want to see some statistics or even ONE person who couldn't get Plan B. I worked in a rural pharmacy, and there was always at least one person on staff who would sell it. There were also Techs and/or Pharmacists who wouldn't. But we always made sure someone on staff did not have a problem with selling it. So WE made accomodations for someone else's beliefs. Why is it you cannot make the same accomodations?

 

[UES Girl]

I want to see some statistics or even ONE person who couldn't get Plan B. I worked in a rural pharmacy, and there was always at least one person on staff who would sell it. There were also Techs and/or Pharmacists who wouldn't. But we always made sure someone on staff did not have a problem with selling it. So WE made accomodations for someone else's beliefs. Why is it you cannot make the same accomodations?

Are you just outright choosing to ignore my question/hypothetical situation (post # 270) because it exposes your hypocracy ?

I'd like to know why is it ok for you to terminate potential pregnancy in some cases and not in others, if in both cases the embryos are equally viable and human ?

 

[FarscapeGirl]

I'll say this again, you should not be condemned for your decisions or beliefs by any person. On the other side of that, if you want that right, then you in turn, cannot condemn another person for their decisions or beliefs. You can't have it one way and not the other.

We live in a world that is very diverse. We should be mature enough to live and communicate with others who have varied and different beliefs. We don't have to accept them as our own beliefs. We don't even have to feel that they are right. But we should be able to live with each other without condemning the other or wishing them bad.

Where is our compassion for each other?

My issue is that the people who have different beliefs from me want to prevent what I do. I have no problem with someone being against birth control, abortion, or Plan B (I do have problems with being all for science to get you pregnant, but carrying the fetus(es) to term no matter if you are pregnant with one fetus or twelve, but that's for another thread). But I do have issues when people want to impose their moral wishes on me or others.

Also, it's really frustrating the amount of people against all of this until they end up in an unwanted situation. The amount of abortion doctors who've treated women who were once protesting outside of their clinic or even worse, go back to protesting once they recover from the abortion... well, it's one of the many reasons I couldn't be an abortion doctor.

 

[WestTXisGr8]

Are you just outright choosing to ignore my question/hypothetical situation because it exposes your hypocracy ?

I'd like to know why is it ok for you to terminate potential pregnancy in some cases and not in others, if in both cases the embryos are equally viable and human ?

I never said anything about terminating pregnancies. That wasn't my post.

I think my post was VERY clear on my belief that YOU have the ability to your own choices and beliefs, just like I do. I won't condemn you for yours. Don't condemn me for mine.

 

[Regnvejr]

She deserves the right to find a doctor or pharmacist who holds her same beliefs. She does not have the right to compromise my beliefs with her own. I do not have the right to condemn her for her decision.

You obtain a license that is based on helping clients and provide a service, not on judging them and obstructing them from legal and safe treatments based on theocratic dogma of the oppression and control of women.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Here's your solution: pharmacists should be required by law to dispense Plan B and BC whether they like it or not. If it's too emotionally damaging for them, they can find a different goddamn profession, or do research.

I mean, personally, I could give a **** if some woman needs some plan b...and I disagree with those refusing...but to take away another persons' personal freedom to hold a profession is just as bad, IMO. Still, nothing can stop the pharmacist from just not stocking it to begin with, so the entire song and dance is moot.

It is NOT as simple as finding another pharmacy if you're turned down the first time. Maybe you don't live in a rural area or the bible belt yourself, but plenty of women do.

Do you know where West Virginia is?

Oh, don't have a car to get to that other pharmacy? Well, f!ck you, you lazy slut. Now you get to have an abortion because you couldn't get emergency contraception in time! Can't pay for that 1st-trimester abortion? Well, too bad. You shouldn't have been born with a uterus!

And that's a good point...but what if they are in a city and there is a pharmacy across the street that will dispense it? Wouldn't it be equally as wrong to force such a hypothetical person to dispense.

See - THIS is what is wrong with liberals and conservatives. They are unable to see the giant gaping holes in their logic. And there are holes in both sides of the debate....and why is that? BECAUSE IT'S AN EFFING GIANT GRAY AREA OF MORALITY.

Now...what ideas do you have that might be able to form a solution that both sides would find satisfactory?

Perhaps certain areas could be designated as "critical access" areas where certain urgent-care meds must be dispensed. such as desolate, remote areas...and other areas the religious nutjobs can flock to and practice as their religions see fit? Would that perhaps be an agreeable solution?

 

[DeadliestSnatch]

I want to see some statistics or even ONE person who couldn't get Plan B. I worked in a rural pharmacy, and there was always at least one person on staff who would sell it. There were also Techs and/or Pharmacists who wouldn't. But we always made sure someone on staff did not have a problem with selling it. So WE made accomodations for someone else's beliefs. Why is it you cannot make the same accomodations?

Determining the course of another person's life is not a moral choice that you are entitled to. The idea of a conscience requires sacrifice on part of the person standing up for his/her beliefs. No one can force you to take birth control. But refusing to dispense it? That forces the person in need of the medication to make a sacrifice and suffer for your beliefs, NOT you, and you do not have the right to make that demand of someone, either as a pharmacist or a f!cking human being. Either accomodate the patients or GTFO and work in a Catholic hospital where women are valued as baby machines and nothing more.

Oh, and as for data, I'm not here to spoonfeed you. Use a f!cking search engine. Scores of women have been harassed when trying to access contraception.

See - THIS is what is wrong with liberals and conservatives. They are unable to see the giant gaping holes in their logic. And there are holes in both sides of the debate....and why is that? BECAUSE IT'S AN EFFING GIANT GRAY AREA OF MORALITY.

Now...what ideas do you have that might be able to form a solution that both sides would find satisfactory?

Perhaps certain areas could be designated as "critical access" areas where certain urgent-care meds must be dispensed. such as desolate, remote areas...and other areas the religious nutjobs can flock to and practice as their religions see fit? Would that perhaps be an agreeable solution?

See above. No pharmacist has the right to refuse to fill a prescription for contraception, because the very notion implies that the pharmacist is allowed to demand that someone else suffer/go without for the pharmarcist's beliefs, as opposed to the pharmacist himself/herself. End of discussion.

 

[Jdario86]

I'm not so sure about that. Women do choose to carry the fetus to term and end up loving that child or giving it up for adoption. I've even heard of women so against abortion that they believe it's 'God's will' that they got pregnant, even if it was through rape. I can't see it, but I have no issue that these women choose to carry the fetus to term. That is, provided that the resulting child is well-treated.

And how is a pregnancy and birth from rape any worse biologically than one from a loving partner??

Well. According to basic genetics - If its rape resulting from incest the offspring will have a high chance of being born with genetic disorders due to low genetic variability between the sperm and egg (i.e. abnormal # of chromosomes, weak immune system).

visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

 

[UES Girl]

I never said anything about terminating pregnancies. That wasn't my post.

I think my post was VERY clear on my belief that YOU have the ability to your own choices and beliefs, just like I do. I won't condemn you for yours. Don't condemn me for mine.

I am not condeming you and my question is open to any poster who feels they can aswer it.

What exactly is your reason dispensing plan B to women who are raped and not to those who aren't ? Biologically, their pregnancies occur in the same way, so what is the reason behind such twisted preferential treatment ?

I have also noticed the pattern - whenever someone brings up a good valid point that you don't have an answer for - your argument is "where is your compassion ?" or "don't condemn me for my beliefs".

 

[Earthangel336]

I still want someone to answer me.....Are you still going to fill viagra?

 

[WestTXisGr8]

My issue is that the people who have different beliefs from me want to prevent what I do. I have no problem with someone being against birth control, abortion, or Plan B (I do have problems with being all for science to get you pregnant, but carrying the fetus(es) to term no matter if you are pregnant with one fetus or twelve, but that's for another thread). But I do have issues when people want to impose their moral wishes on me or others.

Also, it's really frustrating the amount of people against all of this until they end up in an unwanted situation. The amount of abortion doctors who've treated women who were once protesting outside of their clinic or even worse, go back to protesting once they recover from the abortion... well, it's one of the many reasons I couldn't be an abortion doctor.

I agree. But people are hypocritical because we aren't objective enough to see all sides. We close our minds and only see our side. But that goes for both sides (or all sides), not just one.

I don't desire to prevent what someone else does. However, I do desire to work in a setting where my own beliefs are not compromised. As a Tech, I had no problem with that, and neither did any of the Pharmacists. I didn't hinder anyone else's beliefs. I did not impose my beliefs upon anyone. But I was able to work where I didn't have to compromise my beliefs.

As a Pharmacist, if I was offered a job where I was the only Pharmacist on shift and I was required to sell Plan B, I would turn the job down because I would not want my beliefs imposed upon. If I was offered a job where I was the only Pharmacists on shift and we sold Plan B, and my employer stated I could refuse to sell it, I would turn the job down, because I would be imposing my beliefs upon someone else. However, if I took a job where there was another Pharmacist on shift, who did not have a problem with Plan B and I would not have to sell it, then I would feel comfortable there.

I don't know how most hospitals work, but I worked for a rural county hospital and we didn't even stock ANY birth control pills or Plan B pills. So that was a mute point. They weren't being dispensed. Not because it was against anyones beliefs, but because it was not necessary to the healing of a patient. They could get that at the local pharmacy, not the hospital. So I was comfortable working in that setting.

So there are lots of settings where my beliefs don't have to be imposed upon you, and vice versa. It doesn't hinder me from being a Pharmacist.

 

[FarscapeGirl]

Well. According to basic genetics - If its rape resulting from incest the offspring will have a high chance of being born with genetic disorders due to low genetic variability between the sperm and egg (i.e. abnormal # of chromosomes, weak immune system).

visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

But I didn't say anything about incest. I just said rape.

There should be nothing worse about a pregnancy and birth resulting from a rape than one resulting from a consensual evening of sex.

However, there is a lot that's worse about a pregnancy and birth that a woman is forced to go through and one that she wants. Pregnancy is tough enough already without being forced to be an incubator when you don't want to me.

And pregnancy and birth are much more risky to a woman's health and livelihood than any complications from abortion and the BC. The risk of any of these are very small in developed countries, but giving birth is still riskier than not giving birth.

 

[WestTXisGr8]

I am not condeming you and my question is open to any poster who feels they can aswer it.

What exactly is your reason not dispensing plan B to women who are raped and not to those who aren't ? Biologically, their pregnancies occur in the same way, so what is the reason behind such twisted preferential treatment ?

I have also noticed the pattern - whenever someone brings up a good valid point that you don't have an answer for - your argument is "where is your compassion ?" or "don't condemn me for my beliefs".

What's the point I don't have an answer for? I thought I answered all the points.

 

[FarscapeGirl]

I still want someone to answer me.....Are you still going to fill viagra?

Sigh. I asked that ages ago, and no one answered.

I actually had a male colleague, a biologist, tell me that birth control was only used for birth control but erectile dysfunction drugs were a true medicine, treating those with diabetes or whatever. I went on and on about how BC is used to prevent dysmennorhea, endometriosis, acne, and even sometimes is used to help a woman get pregnant. He didn't get it. Probably explains why he's still a single man in his 40s.

 

[WestTXisGr8]

I still want someone to answer me.....Are you still going to fill viagra?

Absolutely, a hard-on is not against my beliefs.

 

[UES Girl]

I agree. But people are hypocritical because we aren't objective enough to see all sides. We close our minds and only see our side. But that goes for both sides (or all sides), not just one.

I don't desire to prevent what someone else does. However, I do desire to work in a setting where my own beliefs are not compromised. As a Tech, I had no problem with that, and neither did any of the Pharmacists. I didn't hinder anyone else's beliefs. I did not impose my beliefs upon anyone. But I was able to work where I didn't have to compromise my beliefs.

As a Pharmacist, if I was offered a job where I was the only Pharmacist on shift and I was required to sell Plan B, I would turn the job down because I would not want my beliefs imposed upon. If I was offered a job where I was the only Pharmacists on shift and we sold Plan B, and my employer stated I could refuse to sell it, I would turn the job down, because I would be imposing my beliefs upon someone else. However, if I took a job where there was another Pharmacist on shift, who did not have a problem with Plan B and I would not have to sell it, then I would feel comfortable there.

I don't know how most hospitals work, but I worked for a rural county hospital and we didn't even stock ANY birth control pills or Plan B pills. So that was a mute point. They weren't being dispensed. Not because it was against anyones beliefs, but because it was not necessary to the healing of a patient. They could get that at the local pharmacy, not the hospital. So I was comfortable working in that setting.

So there are lots of settings where my beliefs don't have to be imposed upon you, and vice versa. It doesn't hinder me from being a Pharmacist.

Well, since you chose to ignore the other questions ( perhaps, because you aren't gutsy enough), my alternative question is:

are you going to announce it to your employer when they are interviewing you where you stand on these issue ? Because if your views are so rigid, you are ought to make people aware of them before they hire you.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Determining the course of another person's life is not a moral choice that you are entitled to.

Like forcing someone to do something that runs contrary to their deepest held beliefs?

Lol...

Both sides are so ridiculously hypocritical. No matter what happens, somebody's rights will get trampled. Con or pro. Somebody gets the giant cock of injustice rammed up their hind parts. None of the partisans want to admit this. If a local non-crazy physician knows that some nutjob pharmacist won't dispense...I'd bet he'd lug around some Plan B with him...or maybe write a script for progestin-only birth control so the RPh doesn't know better. Of course, the RPh probably wouldn't even carry Plan B, anyway, so the point is moot. If your ******* pharmacist won't fill your monthly birth control, mail order that ****. Problem solved.

 

[WestTXisGr8]

Well, since you chose to ignore the other questions ( perhaps, because you aren't gutsy enough), my alternative question is:

are you going to announce it to your employer when they are interviewing you where you stand on these issue ? Because if your views are so rigid, you are ought to make people aware of them before they hire you.

Absolutely. I would be honest and upfront with my employer during the hiring interview.

 

[DeadliestSnatch]

Sigh. I asked that ages ago, and no one answered.

I actually had a male colleague, a biologist, tell me that birth control was only used for birth control but erectile dysfunction drugs were a true medicine, treating those with diabetes or whatever. I went on and on about how BC is used to prevent dysmennorhea, endometriosis, acne, and even sometimes is used to help a woman get pregnant. He didn't get it. Probably explains why he's still a single man in his 40s.

No one will answer because their heads would explode if they tried to. It would force them to acknowledge that a) women can enjoy sex and b) women actually have value as autonomous beings. They aren't just sex and baby robots!

 

[Earthangel336]

Absolutely, a hard-on is not against my beliefs.

Aren't you going to make sure he is married first and that he will use it with his wife?

 

[UES Girl]

What's the point I don't have an answer for? I thought I answered all the points.

Where is the answer ? Where ? I re-read all your posts, where exactly is it ? It's really immature to so blatantly ignore it.


Why are you selectively choosing to dispense birth control to victims of rape but not to women participating in consenual sex ? What is the reasoning behind it, besides the saying " they had no choice" which is not an answer because it doesn't explain what is the basis for the differential treatment.

 

[Earthangel336]

Sigh. I asked that ages ago, and no one answered.

I actually had a male colleague, a biologist, tell me that birth control was only used for birth control but erectile dysfunction drugs were a true medicine, treating those with diabetes or whatever. I went on and on about how BC is used to prevent dysmennorhea, endometriosis, acne, and even sometimes is used to help a woman get pregnant. He didn't get it. Probably explains why he's still a single man in his 40s.

I don't know how those benefits can be ignored. My skin is thanking for my yaz usage and like I mentioned before, both of my sisters with pcos use birth control to help treat their condition.

 

[Regnvejr]

And pregnancy and birth are much more risky to a woman's health and livelihood than any complications from abortion and the BC. The risk of any of these are very small in developed countries, but giving birth is still riskier than not giving birth.

The risk is greater by many magnitudes. In the US, per the approximately 4.5 mill births yearly, 350-500 women die from complications. Per the approximately 1 mill abortions, between 5-12 women die from complications. Abortions are some of the safest surgical procedures we got.