"Casual Dinner" night before interview?

[sdeel]

OK so I know most of us have received invites to attend various food related activities the night before interviews. And per pervious posters, these are very important times for the residents to get to know you and vise versa. I have a couple of questions regarding these functions:

1) What to wear for both guys and gals?

2) How "casual" is casual?

3) Can I order lobster?

As VCOM's 1st class we have no upperclassmen and I have came to depend on the advice of posters of this forum. Thanks for the help!

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[orientedtoself]

1) What to wear for both guys and gals?

Business casual, something nice that you would usually wear to go out for dinner. No jeans for most of these things. The one at my program was at a brewpub- jeans are ok for that. Use your judgement. You don't need a tie.

2) How "casual" is casual?

Don't dance on the tables. Don't get trashed. Do ask the residents questions that they might not want to answer in the hospital with their chief/attending/program director standing right behind their back. Iserson's has a good list of questions.

3) Can I order lobster?

Take the lead from the residents attending the function- see what they order.

 

[shane_doc]

Oh the joys of interviewing!! It was actually very fun once you get over being nervous. I interviewed mostly in the South. They paid for hotel,etc and there was usually a nice gift bag when I checked into the hotel.

I agree with oriented. Wear nice casual clothing. Even if the residents are drinking, I personally would stick to soda or water. I would order food along the lines of what everyone else is ordering. The before interview dinner is informal but it is part of the interview process as well. So remember to be on your ps and qs and ask good questions. Hopefully the event will be free of attendings.

On interview day if they take you out to lunch don't order anything with red sauce

 

[mig26x]

One of my dinner party is at Pizzeria Uno, so it depends on where is the party!!!

 

[atsai3]

Even if the residents are drinking, I personally would stick to soda or water.

If you want a beer and the residents are also all having beer and one beer isn't going to make you drunk, then I see no reason why you couldn't also treat yourself to a pint.

Depends on the program, but by and large the 'casual dinner' is a chance for you to ask the residents questions about the program in a more relaxed atmosphere. I disagree with one of the previous posters in that I would argue that if the program director is a good program director, there would be no questions that you could ask them that they would feel uncomfortable answering in the presence of the program director. The 'casual dinner' is also for you to see if the residents are the type of people with whom you would want to socialize and spend 3+ years of your life. You are evaluating them and (again, depending on the program) they are evaluating you.

So -- if you really are an ass, then the interviewing residents would appreciate it if you behaved like an ass at the casual dinner so that they can pass your name on to the program director. If you really are a nice person, then the interviewing residents would appreciate it if you behaved like a nice person so that they can pass your name on to the program director. Works both ways. Don't be on your 'best behavior'. Just be yourself. Remember, this is a matching process, and it works out best for everyone concerned if applicants match at programs that are a good fit for them.

-AT.

 

[njbmd]

OK so I know most of us have received invites to attend various food related activities the night before interviews. And per pervious posters, these are very important times for the residents to get to know you and vise versa. I have a couple of questions regarding these functions:

1) What to wear for both guys and gals?

2) How "casual" is casual?

3) Can I order lobster?

As VCOM's 1st class we have no upperclassmen and I have came to depend on the advice of posters of this forum. Thanks for the help!

These "casual" dinners are meant to be a less-formal means of you getting to know some of the residents (and perhaps some of the faculty) outside of the confines of the interview process.

As someone mentioned, business casual would be fine. If you are uncertain, wear a sport jacket, turtle neck and casual trousers (no jeans or T-shirts). If the dinner is listed as "casual" then a coat and tie are not generally needed.

Women should wean skirt (or trousers) with shirt (no T-s) and perhaps a casual jacket (no formal suit).

As for ordering, follow the lead of your hosts. If lobster is one of the offered entrees, then order it if you wish. I would caution you about ordering anything with the potential to be "drippy" or "sloppy".

The important thing to realize about these "casual" dinners is that you are "on" and you should behave accordingly. Even if your resident hosts get trashed, you cannot afford to do this. Keep your guard up, be polite and conduct yourself properly. You never know if faculty are around in the restaurant or if word (through the waitstaff) will get back to a faculty member or program director.

Ask questions like: Where do residents live?, What's the call schedule like? What's the teaching like? What programs were they considering and why did they rank this program highly and other things that you would ask a resident. Be cordial and get some information. Also, enjoy yourself too.

 

[kbrown]

Oh the joys of interviewing!! It was actually very fun once you get over being nervous. I interviewed mostly in the South. They paid for hotel,etc and there was usually a nice gift bag when I checked into the hotel.

I agree with oriented. Wear nice casual clothing. Even if the residents are drinking, I personally would stick to soda or water. I would order food along the lines of what everyone else is ordering. The before interview dinner is informal but it is part of the interview process as well. So remember to be on your ps and qs and ask good questions. Hopefully the event will be free of attendings.

On interview day if they take you out to lunch don't order anything with red sauce

If the residents at a particular program have a say in rank lists and are having drinks, I have heard of a couple of places down-ranking a candidate for not drinking (not the type of "not drinking" where the person never touches alcohol, but the type where they seem too scared and uptight to drink). One of the residents at a particular program told me that if someone is not taking them up on their offer to go out and let loose a little, they used that as a gauge as to how well they would fit in that program. I am not saying its okay, just stating a fact at some places.

Now obviously this varies from specialty to specialty, some are less formal than others. For example, I am EM so most of my nights before were sports bar, jeans, button down shirt or sweater, etc.... But my IM friends usually were far more formal with nice restaurants, business casual dress.

If i knew the name of the place we were going, I would look it up on the internet and dress accordingly. If the residents were drinking I would order one, maybe two drinks. At two places in particular the residents were using the night before gathering as their personal gathering time, so they were DRINKING, on the programs bill. I most certainly didn't do that, but don't think that it would have mattered if I did. Afterall, I have an interview the next day...how tacky would it be to smell of alcohol and be sick all day?? Not professional.

To each his own, just go with the flow. Some people feel more comfortable asking questions of strangers after a couple of sips of alcohol. double-edged sword, so be careful. COMMON SENSE WILL PREVAIL!!!

 

[mlw03]

i think you could use the drinking thing to your advantage if you're at all a wine person. play it this way: say you're in the mood for a glass of wine and then ask the other residents if there's enough of them to share a bottle with you. looking through a wine menu together for 5 minutes would be a fun, loose way to talk about something without talking about something important - ie, it'd be a good icebreaker. then when the wine comes you can slowly enjoy the glass over 30 min or so, which shouldn't make anyone drunk.

of course this only works well if you're a wine person - wine people can guage pretty quickly if someone knows what they're talking about at all or if they're full of BS. if you play it right you could enjoy some excellent vino while making a good impression.

 

[jocg27]

i think you could use the drinking thing to your advantage if you're at all a wine person. play it this way: say you're in the mood for a glass of wine and then ask the other residents if there's enough of them to share a bottle with you. looking through a wine menu together for 5 minutes would be a fun, loose way to talk about something without talking about something important - ie, it'd be a good icebreaker. then when the wine comes you can slowly enjoy the glass over 30 min or so, which shouldn't make anyone drunk.

of course this only works well if you're a wine person - wine people can guage pretty quickly if someone knows what they're talking about at all or if they're full of BS. if you play it right you could enjoy some excellent vino while making a good impression.

This also only works well if they are wine people.

If they're not and you try this, at best they won't care, and at worst, right or wrong, they'll think you're snobby.

 

[jocg27]

But, I do totally agree there's nothing wrong with connecting over drinks, and it can help you break the ice.....And that at times you might stand out more if you don't enjoy sharing a drink than if you do.

 

[orientedtoself]

how about this:
1. I like wine! --> drink wine
2. I like beer! And college football. --> drink beer
3. I don't drink --> don't drink

 

[Mumpu]

All dinners I've been to have been at bars/brewpubs. Dress as you would on a Friday-night date. You can't go wrong with pants and a sweater.

 

[ekydrd]

Here are my two cents to you as a member of our interview committee, and a former interviewee myself. The casual dinner here does not include attending physicians or program directors. It is strictly residents and possibly even spouses there with the candidates. It is meant as a way for us to gauge how well we can connect with you, and if there are any potential issues (i.e. I went on an interview where one very intelligent young woman drank one too many and became very belligerent and angry). It may or may not have an impact on your place on the rank list, but you never know so caution is best with alcohol. We do not look down on anyone who chooses not to imbibe. We also do not look down on vegetarians, or others with "differences".

 

[orientedtoself]

All dinners I've been to have been at bars/brewpubs. Dress as you would on a Friday-night date. You can't go wrong with pants and a sweater.

or no pants, if you dare

 

[Methyldopa]

so they were DRINKING, on the programs bill. I most certainly didn't do that, but don't think that it would have mattered if I did. Afterall, I have an interview the next day...how tacky would it be to smell of alcohol and be sick all day?? Not professional.

Reminds me of a fellow applicant who got sloshed and the next day at the interview while we all attended conference, she laid her head on the table and went to sleep!!

The joys of hangovers!

 

[turkish]

Someone mentioned wearing a turtleneck and jacket. Under no circumstances should a grown man wear a turtleneck. Only do this if you plan on "going over the wine menu" before dinner. That way there will be no doubt in anyone's mind...

 

[Winged Scapula]

Reminds me of a fellow applicant who got sloshed and the next day at the interview while we all attended conference, she laid her head on the table and went to sleep!!

The joys of hangovers!

Not sure which is worse...that or the applicant who we had who asked an attending out on a date.

An attending who, at least to most of us, was obviously only interested in the same sex. The gender which the drunken applicant did not possess!

 

[zinjanthropus]

They paid for hotel,etc a

I didn't know that programs did this - is that standard?

 

[Rook16]

Someone mentioned wearing a turtleneck and jacket. Under no circumstances should a grown man wear a turtleneck. Only do this if you plan on "going over the wine menu" before dinner. That way there will be no doubt in anyone's mind...

ha ha....indeed.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I didn't know that programs did this - is that standard?

Standard no, but not uncommon.

 

[shane_doc]

I didn't know that programs did this - is that standard?

To piggyback on KimberliCox, depending on the program hotel is one of the perks. I interviewed mainly at southern programs and all of them paid for hotel. The ones that paid for hotel also had a shuttle or residents to take us to the hospital on interview day. There was usually a continental breakfast and lunch. Some programs took us off campus for lunch. I think this is a good idea because it gives you a chance to drive a little and see the city. But interview day is a jam-packed schedule so you may eat at the hospital with catered food vs cafeteria food. A friend of mine who interviewed Ortho actually had steak and lobster dinner, but he also interviewed with like 10 different people in 5 hours.

I recommended staying away from the alcohol due to consequences such as the anecdoctal stories above. It takes you off your game. I also understand that most people can have a drink with dinner and be ok. But people will get drunk and you don't want that person to be you. Unless you need alcohol to be better at your game which is a whole other story (ie talk to the student drug abuse council)

 

[NinerNiner999]

Simply put, everywhere you go before the match you are being noted, and every resident/staff/attending/etc you interact with during this period will be "interviewing" you - whether they ask you questions or not. Be on your best...

 

[mlw03]

This also only works well if they are wine people.

If they're not and you try this, at best they won't care, and at worst, right or wrong, they'll think you're snobby.

any place where the residents thought i was snobby for wanting to have wine with dinner (especially at a decent restaurant - at a sports bar/pub, yeah wine is a little unexpected) wouldn't be a place i'd want to be, and that's the kind of info i'd want as an applicant. for all the terror about how programs are going to like us, i want to be sure i'll like a program. and if the residents at a certain place at that uptight that my merely asking about sharing a bottle of shiraz makes them think i'm a a snob, then that's probably not a group of people i'd want to spend the next 4 years working with.

hospitals and programs need residents as badly as we need to match, if not more so - i think it's important that students remember that fact. programs that don't fill face a shortage of cheap labor for a period of at least 3 years. that's bad for patient care and it's also bad for that residents that are there. patients must be cared for and if there's only 26 residents in a programs rather than the expected 32 the work still must be done. of course i'm not implying that applicants have the upper hand. rather i'm merely arguing that it's not quite as weighted in favor of the programs as i think some applicants come to believe.

 

[Methyldopa]

Simply put, everywhere you go before the match you are being noted, and every resident/staff/attending/etc you interact with during this period will be "interviewing" you - whether they ask you questions or not. Be on your best...

This is absolutely true!

 

[pjl]

Nice pants and a button down shirt without tie. That was the attire everywhere I went, noone wore ties, and only rarely were people in jeans.
What to get depends on the specialty. Surgery is often appetizers, some others are full on 5 course meals. I don't believe that anyone watched what individual applicants spent, but pay attention to what others are getting if you are worried. And don't be a girl so you aren't in the dreaded first to order spot.

 

[pathman2006]

foe me casual was pants/dockers and a button down shirt without tie.

 

[deleted87716]

Someone mentioned wearing a turtleneck and jacket. Under no circumstances should a grown man wear a turtleneck. Only do this if you plan on "going over the wine menu" before dinner. That way there will be no doubt in anyone's mind...

What is this, "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy?"

In that case, don't wear pleated khakis, either.

 

[deleted109597]

Wear a mock turtle. And a sport coat over it. And then discuss why the pinot grape is just that much better than the rest.

Please. Just once.

 

[deleted87716]

Wear a mock turtle. And a sport coat over it. And then discuss why the pinot grape is just that much better than the rest.

Please. Just once.

"If anyone orders Merlot, I'm leaving. I am not drinking any f*cking Merlot!"

 

[ekydrd]

Simply put, everywhere you go before the match you are being noted, and every resident/staff/attending/etc you interact with during this period will be "interviewing" you - whether they ask you questions or not. Be on your best...

And just be yourself... queer, staight, or anything in between. If you try to hard to be something you're not it will be obvious to most folks, and could be detrimental.

Good luck all.

P.S. And if you like Merlot, please, by all means order some. You'll just have to pay for it yourself

 

[deleted109597]

And just be yourself

+1

P.S. And if you like Merlot, please, by all means order some. You'll just have to pay for it yourself

Actually, some schools will pay for it. It's amazing.

 

[deleted87716]

Actually, some schools will pay for it. It's amazing.

My residency footed the bill for drinks. How else do you think they got the residents to go to the interview dinners?

 

[ekydrd]

My residency footed the bill for drinks. How else do you think they got the residents to go to the interview dinners?

LOL. Well, here the program won't pay for drinks, but we'll watch while you drink ;o). It's all about the budget and being sure we have enough to cover the great hotel, little welcome gift, shuttle service, and dinner the night before interviews for all of our candidates.

 

[deleted87716]

Well, here the program won't pay for drinks, but we'll watch while you drink ;o). It's all about the budget

Oh, we had to watch the budget, too. There was always one resident who was in charge of making sure that nobody went nuts. When I was there, we had one memorable budget-busting restaurant/bar tab that resulted in a couple of residents having their ass handed to them by the PD afterwards. It didn't happen again.

 

[gagolden]

Just got back from a interview that paid for/allowed one drink. But a few people didn't order thiers. Somehow, they magically showed up, then dissapeared again.