Caribbean vs. Poland

[whonow]

Hey guys,

I know going to study medicine anywhere but the US/Canada is significantly reducing your chances of getting through med school. However, I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on the Caribbean vs Poland.

If you had to pick Poland or the Caribbean which would you choose? Do Program Directors view IMGs from both of those places as equal, or would one candidate 'stand out' over the other?

I've seen some mixed reviews about this. Some say the Poland route is better due to the 'stigma' of the carib. Others say the big 4 in the carib beats Poland easily.

Just curious about what you nice folks think!

*Had this posted under the 'general discussion' section, and thought more people would see this posted here.

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[gyngyn]

In the only year for which there is trustworthy data (2013), 46 US IMG's whose degree was from a Polish school matched to a preferred specialty. 79 did not.

 

[whonow]

In the only year for which there is trustworthy data (2013), 46 US IMG's whose degree was from a Polish school matched to a preferred specialty. 79 did not.

Interesting. I guess I'm just curious to know the perception of the carib vs poland - if there really is any difference in the eyes of program directors.

Thanks for that tidbit of info!

 

[gyngyn]

Interesting. I guess I'm just curious to know the perception of the carib vs poland - if there really is any difference in the eyes of program directors.

Thanks for that tidbit of info!

If a particular PD has experience with graduates from an international school, their views will be colored by that experience (for good or ill). There is no way to know the relative risk or benefit from attending a particular international school other than verifiable data.

 

[Caribpro]

Stay away from the Polish programs. Many of them are very poor quality and often the clinical training is with patients who do not speak English. You would be much better off going to an accredited Carib school.

 

[Mahk]

Stay away from the Polish programs. Many of them are very poor quality and often the clinical training is with patients who do not speak English. You would be much better off going to an accredited Carib school.

^ How would you know? "Caribpro" I can tell you never attended a Polish Medical Program.

 

[Caribpro]

^ How would you know? "Caribpro" I can tell you never attended a Polish Medical Program.

uhh, because the school is in Poland and the people of Poland speak the Polish language... Students at many of the Polish schools are required to take Polish language classes...The basic sciences are taught in English, but the clinicals are in Polish hospitals so...

I have actually met many students who have left European and Eastern European programs due to the fact that the clinical education was so poor.

 

[whonow]

uhh, because the school is in Poland and the people of Poland speak the Polish language... Students at many of the Polish schools are required to take Polish language classes...The basic sciences are taught in English, but the clinicals are in Polish hospitals so...

I have actually met many students who have left European and Eastern European programs due to the fact that the clinical education was so poor.

Hey caribpro,

One of my good family friends matched in IM as a non-us IMG - she attended the school in lublin. I believe that program offers US rotations, so it might be school specific? I do get where you're coming from though. You are correct that the curriculum includes 'polish language' lol.

 

[Mahk]

uhh, because the school is in Poland and the people of Poland speak the Polish language... Students at many of the Polish schools are required to take Polish language classes...The basic sciences are taught in English, but the clinicals are in Polish hospitals so...

I have actually met many students who have left European and Eastern European programs due to the fact that the clinical education was so poor.

Many patients speak English but yes of course the population speaks Polish. That also doesn't equate to poor clinical experience. My brother is on the board for hiring and among IMGs they often look for Polish med school graduates because the quality of education is higher than at other oversees medical schools. Neither of us are Polish so we don't really have any stock in a bias. If a candidate is qualified then that's that but that's how the trend goes.

 

[Caribpro]

Many patients speak English but yes of course the population speaks Polish. That also doesn't equate to poor clinical experience. My brother is on the board for hiring and among IMGs they often look for Polish med school graduates because the quality of education is higher than at other oversees medical schools. Neither of us are Polish so we don't really have any stock in a bias. If a candidate is qualified then that's that but that's how the trend goes.

I agree that the most qualified candidates will be the ones to get the job, but you are incorrect about Polish students having a better chance than *certain* Carib schools.

The big Carib schools all have match rates well over 50%. The match rate for students coming from Polish schools is like 30-40% at best.

 

[trev5150]

All y'all do yourselves a favor and put caribpro on your ignore lists. You'll be much happier. That individual is on a mission that only it understands.

 

[the argus]

To the OP, the "stigma" of the Caribbean is being a US-IMG, which you will be if you go to Poland as well.

The truth is, if you're a strong candidate (i.e. good step scores, LORs, grades, etc) you will be fine applying from either route. Poor candidates will conversely have trouble coming from either route.

The Caribbean is certainly a more established pipeline, with far more matching both currently yearly and historically (Ross, SGU and AUC have been around since the 70s).

The "horror stories" of the Caribbean that you referenced in your other post are people who get kicked out during school, or finish school and aren't able to match. They are left with debt and nothing to show for it. These people exist because Caribbean schools will basically accept anyone, including people who don't have the necessary skills (academic, self-discipline, etc) to succeed in medical school.

If you end up in the Caribbean or in Poland, its likely because your academic record in the past hasn't demonstrated these skills. You are the only one who knows if you're capable, it's important to be brutally honest with yourself. You won't have success through either path without the baseline skill set.

 

[whonow]

To the OP, the "stigma" of the Caribbean is being a US-IMG, which you will be if you go to Poland as well.

The truth is, if you're a strong candidate (i.e. good step scores, LORs, grades, etc) you will be fine applying from either route. Poor candidates will conversely have trouble coming from either route.

The Caribbean is certainly a more established pipeline, with far more matching both currently yearly and historically (Ross, SGU and AUC have been around since the 70s).

The "horror stories" of the Caribbean that you referenced in your other post are people who get kicked out during school, or finish school and aren't able to match. They are left with debt and nothing to show for it. These people exist because Caribbean schools will basically accept anyone, including people who don't have the necessary skills (academic, self-discipline, etc) to succeed in medical school.

If you end up in the Caribbean or in Poland, its likely because your academic record in the past hasn't demonstrated these skills. You are the only one who knows if you're capable, it's important to be brutally honest with yourself. You won't have success through either path without the baseline skill set.

Thank you for the message! I appreciate your honesty - it's very well put!

 

[Goro]

Hey guys,

I know going to study medicine anywhere but the US/Canada is significantly reducing your chances of getting through med school. However, I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on the Caribbean vs Poland.

If you had to pick Poland or the Caribbean which would you choose? .

Neither. You improve your app and apply to US schools.

 

[Msc publichealth]

I recently found out that the majority of English language instruction polish medical schools have abolished their 4 year advanced MD program for students with a B.Sc and MCAT. Jagiellonian, Poznan have made it a 6 year program for persons with a BSc. 2018 is the first year this is implemented.

NO MORE 4 year MD programs in Poland. No matter what your previous degrees were. I am still waiting to hear back from the university of Warsaw to see if they have abolished the 4 year degree as well.

 

[whonow]

^I believe the program in Lublin still offers both the 4yr and 6yr programs.

 

[Msc publichealth]

^I believe the program in Lublin still offers both the 4yr and 6yr programs.

They honestly do not. Email the program and ask. I did and received the email that they have recently changed to all MD degrees being 6 years. I was shocked when I read it. And if you look online information for the upcoming year everything it is a six year program. I am so disappointed check this link(I too new here to embed a link but in the search bar of their website type American program and see that even for university grads it is now 6 years!)for proof that the advanced program is now 6 years!!!

^I believe the program in Lublin still offers both the 4yr and 6yr programs.

 

[whonow]

They honestly do not. Email the program and ask. I did and received the email that they have recently changed to all MD degrees being 6 years. I was shocked when I read it. And if you look online information for the upcoming year everything it is a six year program. I am so disappointed check this link(I too new here to embed a link but in the search bar of their website type American program and see that even for university grads it is now 6 years!)for proof that the advanced program is now 6 years!!!

Wow, did not know that. Thanks for the update!

 

[Caribpro]

The "horror stories" of the Caribbean that you referenced in your other post are people who get kicked out during school, or finish school and aren't able to match. They are left with debt and nothing to show for it. These people exist because Caribbean schools will basically accept anyone, including people who don't have the necessary skills (academic, self-discipline, etc) to succeed in medical school.

This is frequently the narrative of why ~50% of Carib students dont make it to 3rd/4th years, but it is victim blaming and does not reflect the unfortunate truth that most of the big Carib schools rank students and fail the bottom half irregardless of their actual performance in the coursework. Your ability to succeed at a Carib school is directly related to how you compare to your peers. I do not believe that the Polish schools do this so your ability to succeed is only dependent on your personal effort. Only you really know if you have what it takes though.

Your chances of graduating with a degree are higher at a Polish school, but your chances of matching are siginifanctly less than a student coming from a big name Carib school. Your clinical education is going to be "better" (if you consider the American healthcare system to be better than Polish) by going to a Carib school.

 

[the argus]

This is frequently the narrative of why ~50% of Carib students dont make it to 3rd/4th years, but it is victim blaming and does not reflect the unfortunate truth that most of the big Carib schools rank students and fail the bottom half irregardless of their actual performance in the coursework. Your ability to succeed at a Carib school is directly related to how you compare to your peers.

This is a bit of a distortion, at least when I was at Ross from 2011-2014. There was a MPS (minimum passing score) for each subject block, I think it was calculated at the bottom ~5%. That said, there was a pre-determined upper maximum MPS, so if everyone scored high enough no one would fail.

And for my class, total attrition over the 4 years was ~25%, not 50%.

 

[Caribpro]

This is a bit of a distortion, at least when I was at Ross from 2011-2014. There was a MPS (minimum passing score) for each subject block, I think it was calculated at the bottom ~5%. That said, there was a pre-determined upper maximum MPS, so if everyone scored high enough no one would fail.

And for my class, total attrition over the 4 years was ~25%, not 50%.

In 2011, Ross was still taking in the enourmous classes of 600-800 students per term (3 terms per year). In 2014, ~800 students matched (this includes graduates from earlier years who didn't match the 1st time).

The MPS wasn't calculated/determined until students were ranked. There has never been a class at Ross where everyone passed. Thats just not how the grading works there.

 

[Skip Intro]

In 2011, Ross was still taking in the enourmous classes of 600-800 students per term (3 terms per year).

The Fall 1st Semester class is always the largest enrollment and approaches that size. The Winter and Spring starting terms are far smaller, and include "decels". There are not - and has never been - 1,800 to 2,400 new students enrolled there in any calendar year.

At the end of the Hurricane Maria debacle, there were roughly 1,300 students total who were relocated from Dominica by the school. This includes all students across the 4 active semesters plus any others who may have been there in other capacities. (This information can be confirmed here: RUSM celebrates opening of its temporary campus in Knoxville)

-Skip

 

[the argus]

In 2011, Ross was still taking in the enourmous classes of 600-800 students per term (3 terms per year). In 2014, ~800 students matched (this includes graduates from earlier years who didn't match the 1st time).

The MPS wasn't calculated/determined until students were ranked. There has never been a class at Ross where everyone passed. Thats just not how the grading works there.

This is blatantly incorrect. I was there, you were not. The starting term sizes were ~400 (mine was ~440, the others were fewer), there were ~1200 people total in my class (over the 3 terms). For my class, 800+ matched (I think it was ~830). Yes it includes people from the previous year, but you would presume that the number of people matching from the previous year will be fairly consistent yearly (i.e. some people that didn't match my year matched the following year). The numbers worked out as follows,

~1200 started, ~25% lost to attrition = ~900 applied for a residency position
of that ~900, 10% will not ever match = 800+ people obtained residency from my starting class

it comes out to ~70% (830/1200) of the people that started in my class at Ross ended up with a residency position.

 

[Caribpro]

This is blatantly incorrect. I was there, you were not. The starting term sizes were ~400 (mine was ~440, the others were fewer), there were ~1200 people total in my class (over the 3 terms). For my class, 800+ matched (I think it was ~830). Yes it includes people from the previous year, but you would presume that the number of people matching from the previous year will be fairly consistent yearly (i.e. some people that didn't match my year matched the following year). The numbers worked out as follows,

~1200 started, ~25% lost to attrition = ~900 applied for a residency position
of that ~900, 10% will not ever match = 800+ people obtained residency from my starting class

it comes out to ~70% (830/1200) of the people that started in my class at Ross ended up with a residency position.

I actually was working for Devry at that time. I will apologize for overestimating the class size. I was also considering the MERP kids which I suppose isn't technically fair considering they would not have been eligible for the match in 2014.

The January 2011 MD class was actually the largest for Ross med in 2011. The January class was ~600, May was ~450 and September ~550. Total enrollment for 2011 at Ross Med was ~1600 students. (I no longer have access to the numbers for new graduates/1st time NRMP applications, but I think your estimate of about 900 is correct- It was between 50-60% of the original starting class).

In 2014, there were exactly 1100 total applicants to the NRMP match (This number includes all applicants, not just 1st time applications.) In 2014, 595 students matched into PGY1 programs in the US. The other ~200 students who got a residency were in Canada, PGY2, SOAP, etc. The match rate for 2014 was ~75%.

 

[the argus]

I actually was working for Devry at that time. I will apologize for overestimating the class size. I was also considering the MERP kids which I suppose isn't technically fair considering they would not have been eligible for the match in 2014.

The January 2011 MD class was actually the largest for Ross med in 2011. The January class was ~600, May was ~450 and September ~550. Total enrollment for 2011 at Ross Med was ~1600 students. (I no longer have access to the numbers for new graduates/1st time NRMP applications, but I think your estimate of about 900 is correct- It was between 50-60% of the original starting class).

In 2014, there were exactly 1100 total applicants to the NRMP match (This number includes all applicants, not just 1st time applications.) In 2014, 595 students matched into PGY1 programs in the US. The other ~200 students who got a residency were in Canada, PGY2, SOAP, etc. The match rate for 2014 was ~75%.

I was in the January 2011 class, initial enrollment was in the 440s. I still have the documents with lab assignments, etc.

And I, like basically everyone I started with, matched in 2015 not 2014. The logistics of trying to finish school in 40-41 months (leaving time to be ECFMG certified before residency) to make the 2014 match was close to impossible, needing to take Step 1 with no dedicated study time during 5th semester. But I'm sure you already knew that since you worked at Devry...

I'll end this discussion here since we are way off the path of the OPs original question.

 

[Caribpro]

And I, like basically everyone I started with, matched in 2015 not 2014. The logistics of trying to finish school in 40-41 months (leaving time to be ECFMG certified before residency) to make the 2014 match was close to impossible, needing to take Step 1 with no dedicated study time during 5th semester. But I'm sure you already knew that since you worked at Devry...

Yes, everyone knows this. Ross even admits that only 50% of their students graduate on time GEDT_Output

 

[the argus]

Yes, everyone knows this. Ross even admits that only 50% of their students graduate on time GEDT_Output

Ok one more post.

Then why are you using 2014 match statistics when discussing 2011 enrollment numbers? The 2011 enrollment numbers correspond to the 2015 match, not 2014.

It must be that keen attention to detail that led someone who went to a top 10 USMD school (also with a PhD) to work at DeVry...

I went to a top 10 school.

I had a phd
thousands of volunteer hours
hundreds of shadowing hours
I knew the head of the admissions committee

many people in my class had advanced degrees as well. MS or PhD in a science based degree.

And since you brought it up, there are very simple logistical reasons for why such a high percentage of Ross students don't graduate "on time" (i.e. within 4 years). Since Ross starts 3 terms per year, people who start in January and May are left with lots of time to kill waiting for residency if they graduate "on time." I know because I was one of them. Started in January, graduated "on time," and then was left with 8 months to kill before starting residency. Many people choose to take a few weeks off between rotations to extend school, keep their student loans active, and not have so much time between graduating and starting residency.

 

[Caribpro]

Then why are you using 2014 match statistics when discussing 2011 enrollment numbers?

Because you said

when I was at Ross from 2011-2014.

... I assumed that meant you went from Ross from 2011 to 2014.

And since you brought it up, there are very simple logistical reasons for why such a high percentage of Ross students don't graduate "on time" (i.e. within 4 years).

No. The numbers that Ross must report to the DoE is literally "the number of student who graduate on time, within 48 months". Students from Ross can and do officially graduate at any time during the year. This number has nothing to do with the time you have in between graduating and starting residency.

 

[Skip Intro]

Students from Ross can and do officially graduate at any time during the year.

Oh... is that so? Hmmm. Didn't know that. I guess you, representing yourself as a Ross University Official, would and should.

I'll have to go back in time and let everyone know that, despite the fact that I finished my clinicals early and had about 7 weeks of idle time, they should have moved my official graduation date up instead of the actual date it was. You know, the one I've had to report to the ECFMG and every medical board with which I've held a license.

I'll refer them to you for questions.

-Skip

 

[Caribpro]

Oh... is that so? Hmmm. Didn't know that. I guess you, representing yourself as a Ross University Official, would and should.

I have never represented myself as a Ross University Official and please do not paint me as such. I formerly worked as a constultant hired by Devry. Thats it.

I suppose my use of *any* was too broad for someone obsessively combing through my messages. There are multiple graduation dates through out the year. A student having to wait 7 weeks until the next one came around is likely, someone waiting 8 months is not.

Doesn't change the fact that only 51% of students from Ross graduate within 4 years.

 

[Skip Intro]

I have never represented myself as a Ross University Official and please do not paint me as such. I formerly worked as a constultant hired by Devry. Thats it.

1) You've come here representing yourself as an "authority" stating you've worked as a consultant in the past for the parent company who owns Ross (and AUC) in at least 2 separate threads.
2) Regardless, no one reading this believes that.
3) Many of us (myself included) believe you are a sockpuppet and/or reincarnation of a previously banned poster named, aformerstudent.
4) I would caution anyone reading your posts - or anyone else's post(s) on this forum, for that matter - to independently verify everything you say and never take it at face value.

I suppose my use of *any* was too broad for someone obsessively combing through my messages. There are multiple graduation dates through out the year. A student having to wait 7 weeks until the next one came around is likely, someone waiting 8 months is not.

If your definition of "multiple graduation dates throughout the year" is two (currently December and May), then you are correct.

Doesn't change the fact that only 51% of students from Ross graduate within 4 years.

So what? Do you know what the four-year "on-time" graduation rate for U.S. MD programs is? Osteopathic programs? (I've previously posted these numbers; do your homework). I'll give you a hint: It's not 100%. It's not even 90%. Want to venture a guess? Why don't you look that up. What's the overall completion rate at Ross?

Some people take a longer time to finish the program. Some people can't finish their bachelor's in four years. Others do post-bacc programs or get masters or PhD's before attending medical school. Again, so what?

The question is not how long it takes you to get there, but can you ever get there. Sure, it adds time and cost and ultimately takes longer to get your degree. At the end of 2016, 91% of students enrolled were still "in process" for getting their degree. (Source: FAQ)

People should know these things going in. Rolling admissions, by its very nature (and as the argus has pointed out), is going to artificially contribute to that number based on the factors previously mentioned.

In other words, yours in-and-of-itself is not a reason to dissuade people away from pursuing this dream. Regardless of your not-so-hidden agenda.

Do your own homework, people. Lazy is mostly likely how many of you got to this forum in the first place. Don't snap out of that pattern and you will never succeed.

-Skip

 

[Caribpro]

If your definition of "multiple graduation dates throughout the year" is two (currently December and May), then you are correct.

Oh skippy, your condescention is always so entertaining, especially when you are wrong, yet again. There are 3 graduation dates per year.

 

[Skip Intro]

Oh skippy, your condescention is always so entertaining, especially when you are wrong, yet again. There are 3 graduation dates per year.

This: http://medhandbook.rossu.edu/curriculum-overview/

Two of those dates are a month a part. This is hardly "multiple graduation dates throughout the year." And, this current and specific policy has been effective only since January 2017.

And, this: http://medhandbook.rossu.edu/special-graduation-date-request-policy/

You cannot "graduate whenever you want" per their policy. If you could, far more than 51% of students would finish within 48 months. But, this would be an administrative nightmare for the school.

That aside and unlike yourself, I don't change the subject. I verify information and challenges, and will clarify and restate when it is demonstrated that something I've stated is inaccurate.

You just like to hurl insults and ad hominem.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

"Only about 81 percent of medical students [enrolled in U.S. allopathic programs] graduated from medical school in four years..."

SOURCE: https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

Try to stay on topic, Caribpro. I know it's hard for you.

-Skip

 

[Caribpro]

your obsession with me is starting to be a bit creepy.

 

[Skip Intro]

your obsession with me is starting to be a bit creepy.

Ad hominem. About what we've all come to expect.

-Skip