Caribbean or Aussie?

[TypeA]

I have been considering the darkest end of the road (it hasn't come to that, but I want to do all research ahead of time...is a second degree really worth it before MS?)

If you had the only the opportunity to attend a Caribbean or Australian school, which would you choose and why? Is there really a difference in reputation or quality of educaiton?

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[FlindersGrad]

Why would you think it is the "darkest end of the road"? I am an Australian graduate, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Do I think Australian schools are inferior to US schools? No...in fact, they're probably better than a lot of US schools.
You don't seem like the type of person who would be happy at a foreign school. Don't go.

 

[TypeA]

Why would you think it is the "darkest end of the road"? I am an Australian graduate, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Do I think Australian schools are inferior to US schools? No...in fact, they're probably better than a lot of US schools.
You don't seem like the type of person who would be happy at a foreign school. Don't go.

I am sorry if I offended you. It was not at all what I intended. I was looking for information. Frankly, I would be perfectly happy to go to a foreign school. I would not enjoy having to take responsibility for my husband uprooting his career and moving away from all that we know. I think you are jumping the gun in your assessment of me. If you could just answer my question with an answer rather than a judgment I would sincerely appreciate it.

 

[bulletproof]

Why would you think it is the "darkest end of the road"? I am an Australian graduate, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Do I think Australian schools are inferior to US schools? No...in fact, they're probably better than a lot of US schools.
You don't seem like the type of person who would be happy at a foreign school. Don't go.

Clearly you're one of those liberals who feigns interest in travel and open-mindedness to rationalize your "road less traveled" degree. Don't you know that the USMD degree is the holy grail of undergraduate medical education? Didn't you get the memo that all FMGs will heretofore be referred to as PAs given their unquestionably inferior training. Didn't you hear about the WHOs mandate to start exporting USMDs to the remainder of the world in order to save who they could. I bet you don't even know what country took home the most gold medals at the 2006 winter olympics, do you?

P.S. If you have to even think about the above question, then you clearly don't even value freedom. Receiving an education in australia or the caribbean....thats a good one

...but seriously.

 

[bulletproof]

To the OP,
sorry, I couldn't resist. I just read your last post and you seem sincere so......From my limited knowledge ( carib school MS III ) it seems as though the issue of school respect really only matters until residency time, at which point in time you are evaluated by your peers on the quality of the residency you are in and the type of personality/work ethic you carry with you. With that said people do tend to look down on the carib students more than students of other international schools, as they perceive these students to be the least competitive.Some residency directors may also question you on your medical school choice, while others may not even grant you an interview......though I would not let this be a deterrent if you are comitted to medicine. At this stage I am used to it, and it does not bother me. It should not bother you either. The major things you want to consider when looking at international schools is
1. Licensing issues with states you eventually want to practice in
2. Residency placements of the schools in question
3. Time spent abroad and/or the opportunity to do clinical rotations in the US ( audition rotations at potential residency sites can make all the difference esp. for FMGs)
4. Avg. USMLE scores of students
I cannot speak to the quality of education in Australia, only to say that I imagine it is equivalent or indeed surpasses the quality of education at many US schools ( based on my interactions with a limited number of students whom I personally know that went there for med. school)
As for my education at Ross: I have been very happy to date, and am doing well in clinicals thus far. My USMLe step I score is quite a bit above the US med school average ( interpret that as you see fit ). Would I go this route again? ...in a heartbeat. Good luck to you in your decisions

 

[TypeA]

deleted

 

[TypeA]

To the OP,
sorry, I couldn't resist. I just read your last post and you seem sincere so......From my limited knowledge ( carib school MS III ) it seems as though the issue of school respect really only matters until residency time, at which point in time you are evaluated by your peers on the quality of the residency you are in and the type of personality/work ethic you carry with you. With that said people do tend to look down on the carib students more than students of other international schools, as they perceive these students to be the least competitive.Some residency directors may also question you on your medical school choice, while others may not even grant you an interview......though I would not let this be a deterrent if you are comitted to medicine. At this stage I am used to it, and it does not bother me. It should not bother you either. The major things you want to consider when looking at international schools is
1. Licensing issues with states you eventually want to practice in
2. Residency placements of the schools in question
3. Time spent abroad and/or the opportunity to do clinical rotations in the US ( audition rotations at potential residency sites can make all the difference esp. for FMGs)
4. Avg. USMLE scores of students
I cannot speak to the quality of education in Australia, only to say that I imagine it is equivalent or indeed surpasses the quality of education at many US schools ( based on my interactions with a limited number of students whom I personally know that went there for med. school)
As for my education at Ross: I have been very happy to date, and am doing well in clinicals thus far. My USMLe step I score is quite a bit above the US med school average ( interpret that as you see fit ). Would I go this route again? ...in a heartbeat. Good luck to you in your decisions

Thanks. I appreciate your "answer"...not "judgment".

 

[leorl]

Med ed is pretty much "standardized" wherever you go in a 1st world country anyway. You learn the same info. The Caribbean caters to a US system, the Aussie one doesn't. I doubt there is much difference in the standard of excellence. But I suppose in a situation like this, your family's input is a heavy factor as well. Where will be easier for your husband to find work (I'm assuming he works)? Where would be better to ask him/others to live (in terms of civilization, weather, etc.)? Depends on what the personalities of you both are like.

 

[FlindersGrad]

Clearly you're one of those liberals who feigns interest in travel and open-mindedness to rationalize your "road less traveled" degree. Don't you know that the USMD degree is the holy grail of undergraduate medical education? Didn't you get the memo that all FMGs will heretofore be referred to as PAs given their unquestionably inferior training. Didn't you hear about the WHOs mandate to start exporting USMDs to the remainder of the world in order to save who they could. I bet you don't even know what country took home the most gold medals at the 2006 winter olympics, do you?

P.S. If you have to even think about the above question, then you clearly don't even value freedom. Receiving an education in australia or the caribbean....thats a good one

...but seriously.

Type A... I apologize for my quick assessment of you, however, you also made a judgement statement. I know it is a difficult desicion to make, however, try to be a little more tactful.

Bulletproof....I appreciate your wonderfully well composed assessment of me. I assume you're just being sarcastic, as it really doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry that you find it difficult to recognize sarcasim when you see it (as in my post).

Seriously though, if you've seen any of my posts on this site you will know that I contribute quite a lot regarding my study and work experience in Australia. I just get tired of people always referring to foreign study as "the darkest end of the road", etc. As if leaving the US and Canada somehow makes you a lesser or inferior person doomed to walk the halls of some community-based hospital tatooed with a "scarlet letter" on their foreheads.

I've never bought into the notion that the USMD is the holy grail of medical education (the conservatives must have gotten to you). It may be the holy grail of med ed in the US/carib, but it certainly is not in the rest of the world. You should be very proud of where you went to school, and I think you probably are. However, the attitude that the USMD is superior is defeatist. Medicine is not something that is uniquely American. It is practiced all over this world in many different ways, and I highly value my time outside of the US.

I had no problem finding a residency in my chosen field in the US, and I had no US experience at all. I also applied for a competitive specialty (not internal med...as many people believe is the only resort for foreign trained docs). So obviously, the quality of the candidate means more to most program directors than the name of your medical school. As long as you have good academics, good LOR's, great USMLE scores, and a solid head on your shoulders you will be fine.

Oh, I should let you know bulletproof...I didn't apply to US schools. I wanted to go to Australia, because in my research, I believed they were better schools. It had nothing to do with my qualifications.

By the way, Germany won the most gold medals in the olympics (11 gold, 29 total)

 

[bulletproof]

Type A... I apologize for my quick assessment of you, however, you also made a judgement statement. I know it is a difficult desicion to make, however, try to be a little more tactful.

Bulletproof....I appreciate your wonderfully well composed assessment of me. I assume you're just being sarcastic, as it really doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry that you find it difficult to recognize sarcasim when you see it (as in my post).

Seriously though, if you've seen any of my posts on this site you will know that I contribute quite a lot regarding my study and work experience in Australia. I just get tired of people always referring to foreign study as "the darkest end of the road", etc. As if leaving the US and Canada somehow makes you a lesser or inferior person doomed to walk the halls of some community-based hospital tatooed with a "scarlet letter" on their foreheads.

I've never bought into the notion that the USMD is the holy grail of medical education (the conservatives must have gotten to you). It may be the holy grail of med ed in the US/carib, but it certainly is not in the rest of the world. You should be very proud of where you went to school, and I think you probably are. However, the attitude that the USMD is superior is defeatist. Medicine is not something that is uniquely American. It is practiced all over this world in many different ways, and I highly value my time outside of the US.

I had no problem finding a residency in my chosen field in the US, and I had no US experience at all. I also applied for a competitive specialty (not internal med...as many people believe is the only resort for foreign trained docs). So obviously, the quality of the candidate means more to most program directors than the name of your medical school. As long as you have good academics, good LOR's, great USMLE scores, and a solid head on your shoulders you will be fine.

Oh, I should let you know bulletproof...I didn't apply to US schools. I wanted to go to Australia, because in my research, I believed they were better schools. It had nothing to do with my qualifications.

By the way, Germany won the most gold medals in the olympics (11 gold, 29 total)

Cha ching!!!!!!!!!!!!! you mean the US is not by default the winner at everything????

Flindersgrad.....my post was dripping with sarcasm. I am not originally from the US, and my viewpoint does not reflect the notion that the USMD is superior to ANY other countries. Like you I did not even apply to US med schools. I could have walked into an Irish med school ( when I apllied as an american citizen willing to pay tuition ), however when I applied fresh out of Irish secondary education with an entrance exam in the top 1% of the country, I was denied as apparently top 1% is not smart enough to practice medicine ( lol....ok reality is a small bit more complicated....small class size, demand...room for large amounts of paying american fmgs etc)There is no bitterness on my part....just clarifying the situation.
At any rate if you read my original post and thought I was being anything other than sarcastic I apologize. I was pseudorepresenting alot of the sentiment I find to be so prevalent amongst many americans who assume that the US has a monopoly on medical education ( and many other things including this ubiquitous "freedom" I keep hearing about .....how bout' them wire taps huh?? )
Like yourself, I have no intention of doing IM ( or FP, psych, paeds), and feel confident I can secure a residency in my specialty of choice ( good board scores, lors, good clinical grades so far, etc.)
For what its worth the only thing conservative about me is the way I dress ( at work..sometimes) I wish you good luck in your studies and travels. By the way if you ever read one of my posts again and you are not sure if I am being serious....then I am probably not. Peace.

 

[BlondeCookie]

my viewpoint does not reflect the notion that the USMD is superior to ANY other countries. Like you I did not even apply to US med schools. I could have walked into an Irish med school ( when I apllied as an american citizen willing to pay tuition ),

....just clarifying the situation.

How can you say that you are not putting down other countries med education when you say you could've "walked" into any Irish school if you would've just shown them the money?

 

[FlindersGrad]

How can you say that you are not putting down other countries med education when you say you could've "walked" into any Irish school if you would've just shown them the money?

They're not putting down the Irish system. Reread the post. They're just pointing out the double standard that exists in many medical schools around the world. That being: the strength of admission criteria is inversely proportional to the amount of tuition paid.

 

[BlondeCookie]

They're not putting down the Irish system. Reread the post. They're just pointing out the double standard that exists in many medical schools around the world. That being: the strength of admission criteria is inversely proportional to the amount of tuition paid.

While cost of tuition is an important consideration, it is foolhardy to make a general statement suggesting that admissions criteria or even education itself suffers as tuition costs rise. If that were true, then Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Stanford, most all the Ivys, etc. would be very poor educational institutions with the weakest of students.

 

[FlindersGrad]

You are not getting the point of the post. Again, REREAD IT! They are simply referring to the double statement seen between full-fee paying students and local students at the SAME medical school. You can find examples of this all throughout the world. Take time to look for them yourself.
Also, I was not referring to the ridiculous tuition rates charged by those schools you mentioned. It really isn't that hard of a concept to grasp.

Since you mentioned it, it is also "foolhearted" to think that paying large amounts of tuition will equal excellent education.

 

[BlondeCookie]

You are not getting the point of the post. Again, REREAD IT! They are simply referring to the double statement seen between full-fee paying students and local students at the SAME medical school. You can find examples of this all throughout the world. Take time to look for them yourself.
Also, I was not referring to the ridiculous tuition rates charged by those schools you mentioned. It really isn't that hard of a concept to grasp.

Since you mentioned it, it is also "foolhearted" to think that paying large amounts of tuition will equal excellent education.

Why the condescending tone? I read the post. I only offered that cost of tuition, while an important factor, cannot be put into such a generalistic statement such as "admission criteria is inversely proportional to the amount of tuition paid." In addition, I never stated that, "paying large amounts of tuition will equal excellent education."

I really do not like your tone towards me. This is not representative of decent behaviour towards a lady or a colleague.

 

[FlindersGrad]

Why the condescending tone?

BlondeCookie, I'm really sorry you feel I'm being condescending. The fact is, you don't understand what was stated.....period.

Therefore, your side of the argument no longer interests me.

Goodbye

 

[bulletproof]

How can you say that you are not putting down other countries med education when you say you could've "walked" into any Irish school if you would've just shown them the money?

How I can in fact say that is because I know.

I applied to RCSI and UCD after completing my undergrad and was accepted to both. RCSI even went so far as to congratulate me on a stellar leaving cert. Of course I was applying at this time as a US citizen with my MCAT and undergraduate degree in tow.....and also with the capability to utilize US government loans to pay for my tuition. I do not feel my undergrad or my MCAT were ANY more impressive than my leaving cert results....why then was I accepted as a paying applicant and not as an Irish student whom the state would pay for five years prior? I'll tell you.....because at that time up to 60% of all seats in Irish medical schools were going to FMGs who would pay astronomical fees relative to the Irish governments subsidisation of actual Irish students. Again, I am not bitter. I merely speak to the facts.
Incidentally I declined both as I favored a four year program geared toward the USMLEs, and with two years of US clinical experience.
I was not putting down the Irish medical education model. I think it is quite excellent. I was ( as should now be evident ) commenting on the double standard.This topic has been discussed extensively in the UK & Ireland forum, so if you are still in doubt as to the double standard you can research it over there. I was just calling a spade a spade.

 

[BlondeCookie]

I merely speak to the facts.

Please don't represent your opinions as "facts" based on your anecdotal evidence on why you were accepted to a school in Ireland. That is not a fact.

 

[bulletproof]

Please don't represent your opinions as "facts" based on your anecdotal evidence on why you were accepted to a school in Ireland. That is not a fact.

Get over yourself. Call it whatever you wish. Anyone whose head is not up their arse sees the system for what it is ( .ie not you ) . Hide behind your n=1 all you want. The point is it is not n=1. Did you even search on the Ireland and UK forum? No, cos' instead you are going to lecture someone who was raised in Ireland, and knows the ins and outs of its medical system on something on which you have no clue.
By the way nice condescending tone....was that you in another post calling Flindersgrad condescending? Have you heard the addage about the pot calling the Kettle black? Enough argueing with you. Undoubtedly you will return with "statistically significant this", or "sample size that". Believe what you want. All the idiots are doing it.

 

[BlondeCookie]

Get over yourself. Call it whatever you wish. Anyone whose head is not up their arse sees the system for what it is ( .ie not you ) . Hide behind your n=1 all you want. The point is it is not n=1. Did you even search on the Ireland and UK forum? No, cos' instead you are going to lecture someone who was raised in Ireland, and knows the ins and outs of its medical system on something on which you have no clue.
By the way nice condescending tone....was that you in another post calling Flindersgrad condescending? Have you heard the addage about the pot calling the Kettle black? Enough argueing with you. Undoubtedly you will return with "statistically significant this", or "sample size that". Believe what you want. All the idiots are doing it.

I really am not enjoying your tone towards me either. Head up my "arse"? How rude! I respectfully disagree with your opinions, but I would in no way attack your character as you have mine. If you can't remain courteous to a fellow colleague who disagrees with your opinion, then perhaps you should refrain from responding.

Ireland, Australia, Canada, USA, Mexico, Africa, Asia, UK, wherever... We all come from different worlds. It shows a lack of class to patronizingly attack differences of opinions that aren't always equally shared. I find such behaviour quite insulting.

 

[bulletproof]

I really am not enjoying your tone towards me either. Head up my "arse"? How rude! I respectfully disagree with your opinions, but I would in no way attack your character as you have mine. If you can't remain courteous to a fellow colleague who disagrees with your opinion, then perhaps you should refrain from responding.

Ireland, Australia, Canada, USA, Mexico, Africa, Asia, UK, wherever... We all come from different worlds. It shows a lack of class to patronizingly attack differences of opinions that aren't always equally shared. I find such behaviour quite insulting.

I apologize if you find my tone insulting. And yes, we do come from different worlds...which I guess, in part, is why when I tell you about my experience I expect to be at least greeted with some measure of respect with regard to knowledge of my own country and its bureuacratic practices.
You attempted to school me on the definition of 'facts'.....which to be quite honest, I find insulting. So, I guess we are bot left insulted. As a famous french philosopher once surmised " I may not agree agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it". In any respect, and in keeping with the class to which I am keenly accustomed, I wish you good luck, and hope that our future discussions will reflect the mutual respect and well intentions we undoubtedly have for each other. Take care.

 

[BlondeCookie]

when I tell you about my experience I expect to be at least greeted with some measure of respect with regard to knowledge of my own country and its bureuacratic practices.
You attempted to school me on the definition of 'facts'.....

I respectfully disagreed with your assesment. I did not attempt to "school" anyone. Please do not put words in my mouth. My exact words were, "Please don't represent your opinions as 'facts' based on your anecdotal evidence..." You responded by indirectly calling me an idiot besides other things. There is nothing respectful about that.

 

[bulletproof]

How can you say that you are not putting down other countries med education when you say you could've "walked" into any Irish school if you would've just shown them the money?

This is what you wrote originally. I replied stating that two seperate schools that I had applied to and had been denied as a government subsidised candidate had accepted me when I applied with US loan backing. Those my friend ARE THE FACTS. Any which way you try and cut it those are THE FACTS and will forever be the FACTS. IT HAPPENED, and it HAPPENS in medical schools all over the world. Anecdotal evidence or otherwise, something that is known to have occured is, generally speaking, regarded as fact. I have a degree in philosophy and if you really wanted we could get right down to it and discuss de facto semantics, apriori knowledge, teleology, axioms and all the other wonderful things that anyone with far too much time on their hands might wet their proverbial pants over.
BTW I never actually called you an idiot. I believe what I wrote was " Believe what you want. All the idiots are doing it" However I find your interpretation interesting. At any rate my time is too valuable to continue with this assinine argument. I respectfully disagree with your assessment now and forever. Later.

 

[BlondeCookie]

"I could have walked into an Irish med school ( when I apllied as an american citizen willing to pay tuition )" - bulletproof


1) The above statement that you made is an opinion. Please do not represent it as a fact. You did provide your personal experience to support your claim. That does not make it a fact.

2) You were quite condescending and rude, indirectly calling me an idiot and using crass manners to say that I've got my head up my "arse". Now, you claim otherwise. Unprofessional behaviours and not holding yourself accountable to your own actions is not only unethical, but won't get a person far in this field.

 

[bulletproof]

"I could have walked into an Irish med school ( when I apllied as an american citizen willing to pay tuition )" - bulletproof


1) The above statement that you made is an opinion. Please do not represent it as a fact. You did provide your personal experience to support your claim. That does not make it a fact.

2) You were quite condescending and rude, indirectly calling me an idiot and using crass manners to say that I've got my head up my "arse". Now, you claim otherwise. Unprofessional behaviours and not holding yourself accountable to your own actions is not only unethical, but won't get a person far in this field.

In response to 1. above, I have the acceptance letters, so how is it still opinion? There is no ambiguity as to whether or not I would have/could have got accepted.Therefore it is no longer a question of opinion as to whether or not I theoretically could have "walked into" the medical schools in question. I declined to do so. How many times does this really need to be explained to you?
In response to 2. I have never gone back on anything I stated. Take whatever high moral ground you want. I am doing just fine in this field, and don't need your pathetic mini lecture on ethics and professional behavior. Save that for your children ( if any ). I have no desire to discuss anything further with you. The original thread was about Aussie vs. Caribbean schools. I offered my advice, and clarified a situation with another Poster and then you arrived on the scene trying to teach us all a lesson. Once again, Get over yourself. I believe they already have internet police.

 

[BlondeCookie]

In response to 1. above, I have the acceptance letters, so how is it still opinion? There is no ambiguity as to whether or not I would have/could have got accepted.Therefore it is no longer a question of opinion as to whether or not I theoretically could have "walked into" the medical schools in question. I declined to do so. How many times does this really need to be explained to you?
In response to 2. I have never gone back on anything I stated. Take whatever high moral ground you want. I am doing just fine in this field, and don't need your pathetic mini lecture on ethics and professional behavior. Save that for your children ( if any ). I have no desire to discuss anything further with you. The original thread was about Aussie vs. Caribbean schools. I offered my advice, and clarified a situation with another Poster and then you arrived on the scene trying to teach us all a lesson. Once again, Get over yourself. I believe they already have internet police.

1) You were accepted into medical school = Fact. You were accepted into medical school because you believe it had to do solely because of X, Y, Z = opinion.

2) Your offensive tone, with regards to 1- having my head up my "arse" and 2- indirectly calling me an idiot were not well received. I have no respect, personally or professionally, for people that have no common decency for discussion without resorting to such immature behaviour.

 

[leorl]

Bickering unnecessary, please return to the original topic. Although I have to say congratulations, that's the most civil bickering I've seen in awhile! Anyway, perhaps the statement was facetious but no medical school anywhere is extremely easy to get into, otherwise you'd have everyone and their mothers being able to attend. As it happens, many applicants to UK/Irish/Aussie/European medical schools are rejected each year.

Regarding the OP's question, it really depends on what you want. Carib will cater towards the USMLE, Aussie won't. But medical education everywhere is pretty much standardized, you will learn relatively the same information although certain subjects are more heavily emphasized in different locations. The differences in opportunities and possibly standards, happens more in post-grad training after graduating with a medical degree.

 

[dr.kicia]

"I could have walked into an Irish med school ( when I apllied as an american citizen willing to pay tuition )" - bulletproof


1) The above statement that you made is an opinion. Please do not represent it as a fact. You did provide your personal experience to support your claim. That does not make it a fact.

2) You were quite condescending and rude, indirectly calling me an idiot and using crass manners to say that I've got my head up my "arse". Now, you claim otherwise. Unprofessional behaviours and not holding yourself accountable to your own actions is not only unethical, but won't get a person far in this field.

you have problems with interpretation of someone else's posts.
Booletproof is a very informative poster and have been on these forums for a wile.
I do not get why you being so damn sensitive about what people say. If i were you i would reconsider medicine as a career because it's not the field where everybody will be talking to you in a nice tone of voice.
I do not want to sound offensive but you seem like someone with self esteem problem...
anyway the fact that bulletproof got into med school IS a FACT not an opinion...so please go get your frustration out somewhere else. This is an informative forum not an anonimous group terapy session. If you have something valubale to say- say it if not -do not post to start flaming wars that we all are tired of.

 

[davidmjh]

what do people think of english universitys, are they better than american universitys or not?

 

[dr.kicia]

nothing is better then american university if you want to practice in america...period.