Career Promotion in Navy and Air Force for physicians

[adamg]

Does anyone know how promotions work if one decides on a career in military medicine, specificially the Air Force or Navy?

I know you start active duty as O-3, but is that as high as you can go?

I know the highest senior officer rate O-6, above that you get into admiralty rates.

Is there an automatic promotion offered for a certain number of years?

I know retention rates are terrible for military physcians so it seems like they would try to keep you in by bumping you up a rate every so often.

After all, the difference between O-6 and O-3 for a 30 year career officer is $4,000/month.

That $48,000 difference could be the deciding factor for deciding whether to stay in or get out.

Of course with retention rates about 10%, perhaps it is the case that a navy or air force doc is stuck at O-3 forever.

Anyone have specific knowedge on how this works?

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[spicedmanna]

Promotion for a military physician is generally fairly automatic up to and usually including O-5, and is determined in large part by time in service, with prior service counting, although other factors may be considered. Although all promotions are subject to board approval, I think anything above O-5 gets highly competitive (the number of spots get progressively smaller), so most people max out there and retire as an O-5 physician. I've heard that as you approach O-6, they are going to want you to be more administrative in your duties rather than clinical. I don't recall the exact number of years for promotion, but I think it's around 5 years from O-3 to O-4 (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Above that, I don't really know. Sometimes, additional features such as a Master's degree and prior service on top of your medical degree can help speed up the process. I know a milmed doc that hit O-4 about a year early because he had a Master's.

 

[IgD]

My friend is a board certified dermatologist and academy graduate who was just passed over for promotion to O5.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

My friend is a board certified dermatologist and academy graduate who was just passed over for promotion to O5.

Interesting. Any idea why?

 

[IgD]

Interesting. Any idea why?

He had early promotes "EP" on his fitness reports. On his last fitness report prior to the selection board they downgraded him to a "must promote". He said he tried to talk with them about it but couldn't any meaningful feedback or relief. What he was told is that a new commander came in and had a different rating system. Hard to believe a medical system would use such a subjective factor to determine promotion. I think my friend arrived at a similar conclusion and planned to leave ASAP.

 

[mitchconnie]

In the AF, promotion to O-5 is almost totally automatic. Six years after you graduate from medical school you are promoted to O-4, then six years after that to O-5. Promotion to O-6 is competitive, and I'm guessing 30-50% are selected.

As suggested by IgD, I have also heard firsthand about several Navy people, including a subspecialty surgeon who actually wanted to stay for a career, getting passed over for strange, arbitrary reasons. In his case, it was because he did not have a recent officer evaluation on file due to the fact that he had been in fellowship the previous two years and only had training reports. My sense is that the Navy is quite fixated on paperwork details and checked boxes when it comes to promotion.

A few years ago, the rules were different in the AF. Promotion to O-5 was not automatic and physicians were actually involuntarily separated if they were passed over three times for O-5. This created the weird scenerio where some physicians were actively TRYING to get bad evaluations, or "lose" their paperwork so they would not be promoted, get involuntarily separated, and avoid some of their service obligation.

 

[deuist]

The Air Force Personnel Center keeps a website with dates of rank available. Just find your rank and when you joined and you'll be golden for the countdown. According to the Excel chart, promotion to major from captain is only 4-5 years. I thought only prior service and graduate degrees got promoted in four.

 

[deuist]

I forgot to add that promotions to O-5 are automatic for doctors. Getting to general requires that you become a flight surgeon, go through the aerospace medicine residency, and never complain about the service.

Only pilots who play the game are allowed stars.

 

[dtn3t]

The Air Force Personnel Center keeps a website with dates of rank available. Just find your rank and when you joined and you'll be golden for the countdown. According to the Excel chart, promotion to major from captain is only 4-5 years. I thought only prior service and graduate degrees got promoted in four.

Just a slight correction - the site says you'll be able to meet the Board at 5 years, which means you'll be able to pin on the next year. And according to the chart, it looks like you can't even be considered for BZ to O4 - similar to Army.

 

[mitchconnie]

One thing to remember about promotions, at least in the AF, is that the people sitting on your promotion board are not necessarily physicians or even nurses but often line officers. As a result, a lot of stuff happens that makes no sense from a physicians perspective. For instance, with critical shortfalls looming in many specialties, particularly in general surgery, it would seem to make sense to automatically promote to O-6 as an incentive to stay. But obviously most line officer's are going to think, "doctors aren't anything special, and if I didn't get automatically promoted to O6, why should they."

Similarly, achievements that may be highly valued in medical circles may not be valued by the line at all. For instance, you could be the most skilled trauma surgeon in the country, president of the American College of Surgeons, and have five publications in The New England Journal of Medicine, but that wouldn't mean squat to a line officer. Things that most physicians find absurdly irrelevant, like PME (professional military education) courses and meaningless administrative duties, mean far more to a promotion board.

I think that this is one reason we should have a combined tri-service medical corp. that is somewhat separate from the line--So people can be evaluated and promoted based on medically relevant criteria.

 

[deuist]

Or, get rid of military doctors and use only civilian contractors.

 

[Perrotfish]

Or, get rid of military doctors and use only civilian contractors

How in the world would this work with something like a Marine GMO?

 

[edmadison]

Things that most physicians find absurdly irrelevant, like PME (professional military education) courses and meaningless administrative duties, mean far more to a promotion board.

I'll put it even more bluntly: It's more important that you pass your PT test than that you be a good physician.

Ed

 

[wlin]

I'll put it even more bluntly: It's more important that you pass your PT test than that you be a good physician.

Ed

Hilarious but true statement.

Military hasn’t changed much for the providers in 10+ years.

 

[cv-6]

Hilarious but true statement.

Military hasn’t changed much for the providers in 10+ years.

fully understand what your are saying, but another angle-

is it that, or if you think about it in the end is it really one of the requirements to build a common sense of purpose and responsibility as a military officer in general regardless if you are line or other... ie if you can't care enough to make sure you can pass a PT test do you really care about being a military officer which is part of the role...

in some sense you can argue that all physicians (civ or mil) should care enough about being a health role model to being able to pass a PT test...

 

[backrow]

fully understand what your are saying, but another angle-

is it that, or if you think about it in the end is it really one of the requirements to build a common sense of purpose and responsibility as a military officer in general regardless if you are line or other... ie if you can't care enough to make sure you can pass a PT test do you really care about being a military officer which is part of the role...

in some sense you can argue that all physicians (civ or mil) should care enough about being a health role model to being able to pass a PT test...

The PT test in all services (in its current form) is a force shaping tool, nothing more, nothing less. When recruiting/retention times are good standards are tightened and people are kicked out. When times are bad the standards are loosened and people are retained.

It is certainly not something that builds espirit de corps; however, it does take up a ton of manpower to properly complete a cycle that could probably be better utilized elsewhere.

 

[DrMetal]

The PT test in all services (in its current form) is a force shaping tool, nothing more, nothing less. When recruiting/retention times are good standards are tightened and people are kicked out. When times are bad the standards are loosened and people are retained.

Which is the case right now, in the Navy. Even worse, there's all sorts of shenanigans going on: peculiar waivers, granting too much leniency on the tape, counting push ups, etc.

I guess that's to be expected when your BCA/PRT coordinator is your own home-grown E-6, from the same command, and trying to make Chief.

If they wanted to do it right, the program would be run and administered by civilians who have nothing to do with your command.

 

[militaryPHYS]

I don't know...I rather enjoy submitting my parfq only to find out my PHA is expired, then trying to do my PHA but realizing my dental or immunization is lapsed...getting that done, then finally my PHA, then finally my PARFQ. Its a long road to a 30 minute test where I get to watch majority of participants get to a passing score then tap out. Could be worse, could be better.