Canada vs. Ivy League

[PLT]

Hi,
I posted this on the premed101 forums here , but I was wondering if anyone else here had anything else they could contribute to this discussion, as I am still having great difficulty with this decision.

It looks like I'm going to have to make a decision between a school like UAlberta and Yale.
I feel that this is a very personal choice but I'm posting here in order to just have anybody with an opinion share it.

Yale is more expensive (understatement), and its much farther from Alberta even than Toronto would be in every sense.

However, Yale provides opportunities that are extremely intriguing and unique, and it really does seem to open residency and "future" doors for its students.

I suppose my question here is (and please answer if you have any opinion at all) ; Is it worth it? Is it an amazing must-have experience to attend Yale and are the doors that open that tremendously valuable?

I have so far no interest at all in any particular specialty/family practice and I have absolutely no idea where I'd like to be living in the future (although I certainly never imagined myself raising kids in the US).

Thank you

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[qwopty99]

interesting predicament. you didn't explicitly state what u were accepted to - but i infer u are talking about medical admissions (and not undergrad). i'm curious to see what others have to say about this topic too - as i am going to be in a similar predicament next year.

i plan to apply for PhD studies beginning Sept. 2007. the "hometown" school is U.Waterloo (i'm from toronto - but Waterloo offers the program that I want to study in). the US school i'm considering is Berkeley. I'm "expecting" that i will be accepted to the program i want to attend at both schools. i like the sound of Berkeley, although for what i want to study, within Canada at least, Waterloo would be as much as i would ever need (i.e. Berkeley wouldn't open any additional doors). however, i am by no means certain to remain in canada or north america for the rest of my life - and in that sense, i think Berkeley to be a far more "portable" degree.

the significant factors that i'm considering with regards to staying in Waterloo are: (1) my family/friends are in toronto, and i have no roots in the U.S. at all - so i have to admit i don't aspire to live there for 4-5 years. (2) my parents are also getting quite a bit older, so i don't know if i'd want to spend these "crucial years" so far away from them.

i'm going to have to make a big decision in the upcoming future.

 

[firetown]

Personally, I would stay and do med school in the country that I want to live in and practice. For me, I can only see advantages in doing any medschool in Canada - competitive residencies and open doors much comparable to any ivy league school in the US, lower tuition etc.

Advantages to the US ivy league school will be as you have mentioned, prestige, competitive residencies, open doors however disdvantages in high tuition, may face some problems if you decide to come back to Canada for competitive residencies (most competitve residencies are filled by Canadian graduates).

 

[avenirv]

check if yale is a prestigious medical school. yale undergrad is VERY prestigious institution.
there are differences between undegrad and graduate school or medical school prestige level.
harvard, u of p, cornell medical schools are very prestigious but john hopkins, mayo are more.

 

[hoomsy]

Hey,

I would go where you're happy. Keep this in mind. I used to shadow an ER doc in Boston when I was in high school. I asked him, what's a "good medical school" to go to. He said my cowoker here went to Harvard Medical School. He said he went to medical school in Mexico because he couldn't get into a school in the US or Canada. They have the exact same job. If you want to go to academia, then yeah the better the name of your medical school will help you. If not, your patients are not going to care where you went to school...AND...either way, you have to pass the board exams. If you go to so and so school and don't do well on the board exam, then you're not going to get your top residency.

However, if you 1) have money, or 2) want to be an American doc, then go for it! You'll make your money back very quickly


Cheers


Hoomsy

 

[vtrain]

Go to Yale. You can't put a $$ on the potential connections and opportunities that having the Yale name provides. UofA doesn't even come close. Having said that, if all you want to do is get ur MD and practice at a local hospital back in AB, then I'd stick with UofA. However, you said you don't know what you want to do yet, so why close doors for yourself when you don't have to? Don't worry about the $$$ - that shouldn't be an issue. You'll be able to pay it off. Having studied in the US, I can honestly say, the resources and connections you make down there are superior to anything you can hope for in Canada. As well, their healthcare system is the most advanced in the world in most specialties.

 

[vtrain]

Another note....with regards to prestige....it's all a bunch of garbage, HOWEVER, it's the connections that you will be making b/c ur at that institution and the doors that will open for u because u have that name behind you that's important

 

[Badkarma25]

based on what i knwo from people who have graduated from medicine in the recent and not so recent future adn the doors i've seen open to them on both sides of the border, i'd say get the canadian medical degree and canadian postgrad training because that seems to be the gold standard the world over. its much easier to move south with canadian credentials than vice versa (not saying it's that difficult to come from the U.S.).

 

[akinf]

Hey, I know a guy who got into UManitoba medicine, Queen's, Yale, and waitlisted at Stanford. He decided on UofM because he got engaged, however, I think the thing I took away from our talk was that going to a school like Yale is not worth the amount of debt you will incur. Sure, the name Yale sounds very nice, but a school like UofA is quite good too. Sure it may not have the reputation Yale has, but for all we know the medical school could be better. UofA is an excellent medical school, and I believe you won't regret it if you decide to stay. Also, like someone mentioned, you may have issues if you want to come back and practice in Canada, but you'll likely make more money if you decide to stay in the US. If it were me, I'd glance ahead 10 years to see where I would be. If you see yourself in Canada, go to Alberta, if you see yourself in the States, go to Alberta and move to the States, if you are not sure, go to Alberta then decide when you get there. I'm sure you understand what I am trying to say, but just in case: go to Alberta. If you cannot afford to comfortably dish out the $$$ required for Yale, it's not worth it. The medical education and training you'll get in Alberta is of comparable quality. If you go to Toronto for residency, you'll probably get better medical education at that level. Good luck with your decision. Sry for the long-winded post.

 

[Marquis_Phoenix]

But suppose that one's objective is to become a faculty member at one of the highly reputable universities in the United States. Would there be a tangible difference in that case between Yale and University of Alberta in proceeding with that goal?

 

[akinf]

If you want to become faculty at a major university, I'd suggest going into a program that is MD/PhD. These students are scarce and people grab them as soon as possible. However, you do require usually around 7 years of training, before residency. So when residency hits, depending on what you want to do, that could take up to another 6-9 years if you do a fellowship. So, suppose you enter at age 22, you do MD/PhD, a neurological surgery residency, then a 3-year fellowship, that is 7+6+3 = 16 years...22+16 = 38. You won't start on your own until you are 38. Now, this is the most extremem case and shouldn't even affect your decision if this is the route you want to take, however, getting faculty positions at major universities are competitive and you are expected to have shown a proficiency for research output and clinical competence. But, will the school help, going to a school that is doing cutting edge research and works in unchartered territory will get you published a lot and a faculty position easier than something that is highly competitive. There are a lot of things you should consider, but if you are looking towards a faculty position, it depends on the research you want to do and which school as better funding for that particular research. Find the answer to that question, then go to that school.

 

[qwopty99]

So, suppose you enter at age 22, you do MD/PhD, a neurological surgery residency, then a 3-year fellowship, that is 7+6+3 = 16 years...22+16 = 38. You won't start on your own until you are 38.

i love these calculations. i'm not trying to make fun of what you wrote (cause it's true), but the numbers always seem so ominous.

for me, assuming i do a PhD (4-5 years), it'll be 4 + 4 + (4 or 5) = 12 or 13 years of postgraduate work... which is as long as was my elementary--> high school experience. kinda scary when u think about it...

 

[ssc_396]

So, suppose you enter at age 22, you do MD/PhD, a neurological surgery residency, then a 3-year fellowship, that is 7+6+3 = 16 years...22+16 = 38.

I don't get it. Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Having just finished my PhD I'll be starting my MD in Aug and will be ~38 when I finish (assuming a 5 year residency + fellowship). What's the rush? If you're doing what you want (research + clinical) you'll really benefit from both degrees.

That’s off topic though. PLT, as I said on ezboard, if you can afford it go to Yale. That being said, with the acceptance in hand I’d say you’ve already made some of those all important connections. When I gave up my Columbia acceptance I discussed my decision to attend UBC with the faculty I met at Columbia and they said I could come back for electives etc… I suspect the same would true for you. So in theory you could get the cheap (and quality) UofA MD, and make those Yale connections in summer/3rd/4th year electives.

 

[Marquis_Phoenix]

If you want to become faculty at a major university, I'd suggest going into a program that is MD/PhD. These students are scarce and people grab them as soon as possible. However, you do require usually around 7 years of training, before residency. So when residency hits, depending on what you want to do, that could take up to another 6-9 years if you do a fellowship. So, suppose you enter at age 22, you do MD/PhD, a neurological surgery residency, then a 3-year fellowship, that is 7+6+3 = 16 years...22+16 = 38. You won't start on your own until you are 38. Now, this is the most extremem case and shouldn't even affect your decision if this is the route you want to take, however, getting faculty positions at major universities are competitive and you are expected to have shown a proficiency for research output and clinical competence. But, will the school help, going to a school that is doing cutting edge research and works in unchartered territory will get you published a lot and a faculty position easier than something that is highly competitive. There are a lot of things you should consider, but if you are looking towards a faculty position, it depends on the research you want to do and which school as better funding for that particular research. Find the answer to that question, then go to that school.

But why would you do both surgery and the PhD/MD? Is it really necessary to get a PhD in order to make innovative advances in surgical technique?

This omits the fellowship, doesn't it?

Residency for neurology is 3 years.

My understanding of the entire process was this (assuming neurology):

1) Graduation at 20.
2) PhD/MD at 27.
3) Residency at 30.
4) On my own.

Or rather (purely neurosurgery):

1) Graduation at 20.
2) MD at 24
3) Residency/Fellowship at 31-32.
4) On my own.

38 is insane... so you have basically minimal means ($50k/year) of supporting a family, owning a house until you're 38... which is really really late...

 

[akinf]

Neurology is minium 5 years. Either 3 year IM+3 years subspecialty training, or 5 years straight neurology. I don't think an MD/PhD omits a fellowship because you don't just do research in a fellowship. You learn techniques and practices in a specific area. Also, 7 years for MD/PhD is usually the minimum time. There are quite a few surgeons who also have PhD, especially those that are part of faculty at universities.

 

[ssc_396]

1) Graduation at 20.
2) PhD/MD at 27.
3) Residency at 30.
4) On my own.

38 is insane... so you have basically minimal means ($50k/year) of supporting a family, owning a house until you're 38... which is really really late...

Your calculation is a little optimistic. The average entering age is 23-25 depending on school. Then the number of people who actually complete the MD/PhD in 7 years is small. Most take 8-9. And if you’re thinking neuro the training is 11 years minimum (MD+res+fellowship).

Why do you need a PhD? Well if you only want to do clinical work you certainly don’t. Don’t waste your time and go straight for the MD. And many MDs carry out very successful research without a PhD.

But getting your own lab going or heading up some medical research institute is tough to get into without a PhD. Having been in the medical research game for a while I can say that the number of stellar clinician scientists out there without PhDs is minimal (though some amazing counter examples exist like Rod Mackinnon, 2003 Nobel prize in chemistry, only has his MD).

And 50K/year not liveable?!!! You need to give your head a shake. The vast majority of the Western world survives on less than this. I've supported my wife and daughter on my PhD salary just fine. And the figure is more like 70K later in your residency.

 

[akinf]

Yea I was a little confused by that graduation at 20. I just assumed it was a person with a late birthday who only did three years of undergrad.

 

[akinf]

I don't get it. Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Having just finished my PhD I'll be starting my MD in Aug and will be ~38 when I finish (assuming a 5 year residency + fellowship). What's the rush? If you're doing what you want (research + clinical) you'll really benefit from both degrees.

That’s off topic though. PLT, as I said on ezboard, if you can afford it go to Yale. That being said, with the acceptance in hand I’d say you’ve already made some of those all important connections. When I gave up my Columbia acceptance I discussed my decision to attend UBC with the faculty I met at Columbia and they said I could come back for electives etc… I suspect the same would true for you. So in theory you could get the cheap (and quality) UofA MD, and make those Yale connections in summer/3rd/4th year electives.

No it's not supposed to be a bad thing; I think it's important to consider these things and know this is what you want to do before you get deep into it. If these numbers mean nothing to you and believe you could wait whatever length you needed to before you felt comfortable enough, then that's you right. I personally would consider doing the MD/PhD in hopes of a faculty position, but I think I would need to learn more about what to expect before I start applying.

 

[Ponyboy]

Go to Edmonton. It'll be cheaper than Yale and the clinical years are stronger than most US schools. You'll do more as a 3rd year medical student in Canada than some first year residents in the US.

If you go to the U of A and do well on the USMLE's and have good reference letters, you can match well in the USA without a problem.