Budding Neurosurgeon or am I kidding myself?

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samsoccer7

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I just got my Step 1 score back, a 241 or 97 2-digit. I'm from a middle of the road medical school. I was wondering what I can think about in terms of a neurosurgery residency. What schools are near the top, middle, and bottom tiers. I have above average scores the first 2 yrs of med school, but nothing exceptional. Other than research, what should I do to stand out this year. Also, how much does "personality" really weigh when interviewing? B/c if I can get in the door, they'll love me, hands down.

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Originally posted by samsoccer7
Also, how much does "personality" really weigh when interviewing? B/c if I can get in the door, they'll love me, hands down.

You'll fit in perfectly with the rest of the neurosurgeons then.
 
Well, that's not exactly what I meant. I'm a very social, outgoing person, and I can talk on any topic, unlike a good chunk of my class. But if anyone has any input on the other stuff, I'd greatly appreciate it.
 
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Not to get you down, but I cant think of a potential specialty where your exuberant personality would help you less, at least as far as securing a spot is concerned. I would bust ass to get published or do some kick-ass rotations.
 
Idiopathic, are you an Nsurg resident? If so, what were your "stats" like, if you don't mind me asking. The hardest part for me is trying to figure out where I stand, and I can't seem to find answers. And believe me, I've looked pretty far. The best I can find is the average Step 1 around 234 or so.
 
Originally posted by samsoccer7
Well, that's not exactly what I meant. I'm a very social, outgoing person, and I can talk on any topic, unlike a good chunk of my class. But if anyone has any input on the other stuff, I'd greatly appreciate it.

You might be interested in knowing that neurosurgeons in general are a conservative and reserved lot. Being a token "social, outgoing person" trying to impress them with your ability to blab on about "any topic" will most likely not impress them.

Your USMLE score is great and it will open up a lot of doors for you. My suggestion would be to get involved more in depth with research, as the field of neurosurgery is highly academic and very fond of research.
 
Thanks for the input everyone, I really appreciate it.

What's the word on AOA?

How can I get involved in research now? I'm on an easy rotation next, but since my school doesn't have an nsurg residency, there's only 1 attending I believe. What can I ask him about in terms of research?

If I already know the attendings at a hospital (b/c I worked in the office, observed surgeries, attended some conferences, M&M, etc. last summer for 2 months), and I do a Sub-I there next yr, is that one of the "ins" that people talk about?

Please pardon my naivety.
 
Originally posted by Idiopathic
I would bust ass to get published or do some kick-ass rotations.


I'm also interested in NS and was wondering what publications are preferred. Basic science research, clinical research, review articles, and/or a combination thereof? And about how many publications should I strive for by the time I apply?
 
Originally posted by dr barb
I'm also interested in NS and was wondering what publications are preferred. Basic science research, clinical research, review articles, and/or a combination thereof?

Basic science publications are definetly more difficult and usually take longer to obtain results for publication than do clinical publications, and as such, basic science pubs look more impressive. That being said, there are quite a few medical researchers who only undertake and publish clinical papers. If you're going to do clinical research make sure that it is of high quality and well-designed, not just some retrospective chart review that any undergrad/med student can do in a few weeks during their summer break. Review articles don't carry much weight since they technically are not research, but rather like writing an essay for class where you just read what has already been researched by others on a topic and write about it. Although if you don't have time and are in a rush to get a pub on your CV then a review article may be the only thing you can do since generating data for a solid basic science or clinical paper takes time. Also if you write most of the review then you'll most likely be 1st author. Case reports are another quick way to get published, but once again don't look very impressive since you're not actually researching anything but rather reporting on an interesting or rare case that came up by chance. You could ask the neurosurgery attendings or residents at your school if they have recently come across an unusual case or rare disease they operated on and see if they'd be interested in writing it up with you.


And about how many publications should I strive for by the time I apply?

It's really hard to quote a specific number as the # of pubs by med students *during medical school* varies widely. Most publish absolutely nothing while in med school (even if they were involved in research), whereas others have multiple pubs by the time they graduate.

If you are really eager and persistent, you could have a bunch of case reports by the time you apply if you start early enough.

Review articles take longer to write since you have to go over the literature and write what is essentially a long essay. And most reputable journals won't publish review articles unless they are of high quality and sometimes only if they are written by leaders in the particular area of research (e.g. why would experienced researchers in the field want to listen to anything a mere medical student would have to say about the subject?). That is why most high-quality journals only *invite* well-known researchers to write review articles for their journal. But there are journals out there that will consider review articles from even medical students.

Depending on a little bit of luck, timing, and persistence you can put out a couple of basic science and/or clinical papers by the time you apply if you start early and pick projects that will give you publishable results in a timely manner.
 
Hey guys, I met with the neurosurgeon here today and he suggested I buy Greenberg (obviously), get and read Neurology Secrets, and "learn how to publish well" and get back to him in 10 days. Since that's not entirely possible, my question is this:

What can I read, that is concise (since I already took a class on writing for the biological sciences in college) and helps me gear my writing towards journal publishings? He suggested some books like "Anyone Can Write a Paper" or "Edit yada yada yada" or something.
 
samsoccer7,
There is more of a basic text called "Writing Papers in the Biological Sciences" by Victoria McMillan that helped me in both undergraduate thesis and med school abstract/publication writing. I think is is quite clear on the basics of scientific writing.

On getting into NS, don't let anyone stand in your way, as it is not as competitive as most think. It is self-selective for somewhat driven people who can work many hours and handle failure/pressure. It is NOT really numbers competitive like ortho, ENT, derm, etc. You cannot bull**** your interest in such a mentally taxing field. Those interviewing you will know. Sincere good luck.
 
Thanks for all the responses...

I met with him twice now, and he said he has a case study that's ready to go, most likely to JNS (he presented it at the conference in 2002) and i need to basically rewrite it, rework the figures, and format it to JNS spec. Does this sound encouraging? Granted it's not really my case, but if I write it, sort the references out, etc... is that ok?
 
JNS is exceptionally difficult to get published in. If it's your first project (and it sounds like it is from your posts), then I suggest you either stick close to this attending (which doesn't sound possible since he's the only neurosurgeon at your school, so he's bound to be busy) or find yourself a senior medical student who has published heavily to help you.

Find out from your attending if he has a favorite MS4 who has worked extensively with him (most attendings do) and get a hold of that person for advice and guidance.

Another option is to hit up a surgical resident who has published with this attending. Since you don't have a neurosurgery residency at your school, then the residents might not be as in tune with neurosurgical publications.

Your best bet might be to hit up a neurosurgically inclined MS4. However, just be warned that this is an extremely busy time of the year for seniors applying to the early match. I did the same when I was a junior and got a lot of great advice from MS4s and PGY1s in neurosurgery. Attendings were far too removed from the application process to really offer up good solid "in the trenches" type of advice.

I noticed you asked some questions in other threads about plastic surgery. Are you serious about neurosurgery or plastic? Both fields are difficult to get into and while it is not impossible to apply to both, it seems very unconventional and schedule-wise, it would be difficult to properly set up a 4th year sub-i schedule that would do justice to both pursuits. The neurosurgery residents that I've worked with were not very supportive of students who were considering neurosurgery and a whole bunch of other fields. Many of them have spent time "guiding" a student only to have the student apply into a different specialty. So if you're undecided about neurosurgery, then don't let anybody at your school know about it, especially NOT your neurosurgery attending!!!!

I agree with ecpiii in that neurosurgery is self-selecting for workaholics. If you do not love neurosurgery 100% and are not willing to make huge sacrifices for the work, then go into a specialty that demands less commitment. Residents and attendings can sniff out less than hard-core students from a block away! Many attendings round at the crack of dawn and are still at the hospital well into the late evening. Something to think about before you actually end up doing neurosurgery and finding it is not what you really want. It's a lifetime, man!

Good luck with your career plans.
 
I appreciate the input. In fact, I've already got a 4th yr who's completely willing to help me get on my feet. He's published 3 or 4 during his 3rd yr and is adept at getting into journals.

As far as plastics, I was kinda thinking about it, but when it comes down to it, the brain is really what interests me. I know neurosurgery is a difficult field, but I think I excel when I'm interested, and honestly, plastics might not do it for me. Granted the lifestyle and money is probably great, but if I'm just average, then I won't be able to take pride in my work.

So basically, neurosurgery for me :) And if I was really considering anything else, well, I surely wouldn't let the attending know :)

Thanks guys and gals.
 
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