British nurses must turn hospital beds towards Mecca 5 times per day

[Phenol312]

Teh intarwebs r srs biznes!!

it took me about 10 seconds to figure out what you said there but once i figured it out i lol-ed.

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[154465]

Then let them get offended...they will post something a few people will realize that they said something ignorant and apologize and the world will just keep on turning.

Aren't there better things in life to be offended over than a thread on SDN...like Paris Hilton for instance?

Yea I agree, this isn't offensive at all. This is dialogue, seems like some of you guys are curious.

I dunno, lately Paris has not enraged my nearly as much as she usually does. My hatred for Carlos Mencia has grown so massive and all encompassing that it has relieved her from her place of hatred in my heart.

 

[League54]

I'm actually interested in getting some Muslim input on this. I don't think all nurses should be required to turn all the Muslim patient beds, mainly for separation of church/state type issues. I have several moderate Muslim acquaintances at school, and I'm sure some of them would agree, but others would not. I don't think a civil discussion about the issue would offend too many people, but I could be wrong...

 

[Ahmed786]

I am Muslim and the reason we pray towards Mecca is because we believe the Ka'bah is God's house on Earth although his real throne resides in heaven. I have skimmed this thread and am offended some of the comments made. Why do any of you care if we have to face towards Mecca to pray? The article is implying it is a trivial thing but it is something very important to us. "[Nurses] who say they must interrupt potentially life-saving medical work to move the beds." This statement is ridiculous. Obviously if someone requires urgent Medical care Muslims are not going to demand their beds be moved at that exact moment in time.

 

[SharpieMarker]

What do hospitals in Muslim countries do?

I shadowed in a hospital in a Muslim country for several months, and I never saw them turn the beds... Most patients were well enough to get out of the bed, face Mecca and pray for themselves, or had family members help. To my understanding, it's okay for people who are too sick to pray not to.

 

[League54]

I am Muslim and the reason we pray towards Mecca is because we believe the Ka'bah is God's house on Earth although his real throne resides in heaven. I have skimmed this thread and am offended some of the comments made. Why do any of you care if we have to face towards Mecca to pray? The article is implying it is a trivial thing but it is something very important to us. Of course, if urgent medical care is required Muslims are not going to demand that their beds face towards Mecca at that exact moment in time.

So, I'm curious, do you think the government should require nurses to turn hospital beds towards Mecca in a country where church and state are kept separate? If so, why? Just curious.

 

[nonesuchgirl]

I am Muslim and the reason we pray towards Mecca is because we believe the Ka'bah is God's house on Earth although his real throne resides in heaven. I have skimmed this thread and am offended some of the comments made. Why do any of you care if we have to face towards Mecca to pray? The article is implying it is a trivial thing but it is something very important to us. "[Nurses] who say they must interrupt potentially life-saving medical work to move the beds." This statement is ridiculous. Obviously if someone requires urgent Medical care Muslims are not going to demand their beds be moved at that exact moment in time.

Because we want to go into medicine and some of our patients will be Muslim?

Because we're curious and want to know more about other people?

 

[154465]

I shadowed in a hospital in a Muslim country for several months, and I never saw them turn the beds... Most patients were well enough to get out of the bed, face Mecca and pray for themselves, or had family members help. To my understanding, it's okay for people who are too sick to pray not to.

Excellent point, if they are too sick to pray then they don't have to.

 

[League54]

Because we want to go into medicine and some of our patients will be Muslim?

Because we're curious and want to know more about other people?

'xactly

 

[Ahmed786]

Because we want to go into medicine and some of our patients will be Muslim?

Because we're curious and want to know more about other people?

"Compass. Innate sense of direction. Their mama. The imam. Cheetos says it doesn't matter, you can face Mecca all day."

With statements like that?


And of course, Fox News is the most unbiased news organization on Earth.

 

[Phenol312]

I am Muslim and the reason we pray towards Mecca is because we believe the Ka'bah is God's house on Earth although his real throne resides in heaven. I have skimmed this thread and am offended some of the comments made. Why do any of you care if we have to face towards Mecca to pray? The article is implying it is a trivial thing but it is something very important to us. "[Nurses] who say they must interrupt potentially life-saving medical work to move the beds." This statement is ridiculous. Obviously if someone requires urgent Medical care Muslims are not going to demand their beds be moved at that exact moment in time.

I think the issue that people have with it is that it is taking time away from nurses who could be seeing patients. Again this is subjective...the nurses feel overworked in this situation and it might not be the actual act of moving the patients so much as it is one more thing on their plates to have to do.

While I respect your faith (and all faiths for that matter) I believe that administering to patient's health should be the top most priority in a hospital...not their faith thats what family is there for although I feel that this is a great stride for the hospital I think it might be going to far and inflaming those of other faiths who might want similar treatment or something along those lines.

I do think that them offering Halal meals is awesome though. I'm just curious if they do the same for Christians during Lent or Hebrews during Passover something along those lines.

 

[Saregamapadanis]

this is actually the question I had.. is it against religious belief to just remain facing Mecca all day? it seems like the simple solution is just to turn the bed toward Mecca and keep the bed facing that way. but I don't know the rituals.. can anyone enlighten me?

To armybound,

hahah funny avatar man! I kept hitting the left side of my screen to kill the bug only to realize it was an atavar!

Oh its too late in the night.

 

[Phenol312]

Unfortunately I was right. I WARNED YOU!!!

O well...getting offended is a part of life. What shows character is that you can take offense and approach it with a level head and positive attitude.

 

[nonesuchgirl]

"Compass. Innate sense of direction. Their mama. The imam. Cheetos says it doesn't matter, you can face Mecca all day."

The question was, how do you know which way you're facing. These are answers...

I think the issue that people have with it is that it is taking time away from nurses who could be seeing patients.

I do think that them offering Halal meals is awesome though. I'm just curious if they do the same for Christians during Lent or Hebrews during Passover something along those lines.

Jews, you mean?

Aside from the no meat on Fridays and fasting on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, there aren't a lot of Lent food restrictions.

I suspect that if they know, they'll accomodate you.

 

[154465]

So, I'm curious, do you think the government should require nurses to turn hospital beds towards Mecca in a country where church and state are kept separate? If so, why? Just curious.

I dunno, I support laws that protect the rights of underrepresented minorities, but passing this law is saying that secular institutions have an obligation to fulfill religious duties. I dunno how OK I would be with that. As a Muslim I know how important it is to pray 5 times a day, but I would never expect nurses at a secular hospital to turn my bed for me, and I would certainly never expect this to be passed as law. I think there is a difference between protecting rights and forcing others to fulfill them for you.

 

[Cataract]

Excellent point, if they are too sick to pray then they don't have to.

Right. Isn't it like fasting, where if you're pregnant, ill, malnourished or whatever, you're not obligated to fast? So if you're incapable of facing mecca for whatever reason, can you be held accountable?

The hospital might just be going above and beyond the call of duty to make their patients happy; it's probably not necessary to move their beds, but if they're willing to, why not?

 

[armybound]

what is Ka'bah and (I know this is stupid) what is Mecca? It's the big wall, right? And there's a tower there? what's the significance of that?

I mean I know it's significant, like the most holiest of places or something, but why? was Muhammed there?

 

[Ahmed786]

I think the issue that people have with it is that it is taking time away from nurses who could be seeing patients.

While I respect your faith (and all faiths for that matter) I believe that administering to patient's health should be the top most priority in a hospital...not their faith thats what family is there for although I feel that this is a great stride for the hospital I think it might be going to far and inflaming those of other faiths who might want similar treatment or something along those lines.

I do think that them offering Halal meals is awesome though. I'm just curious if they do the same for Christians during Lent or Hebrews during Passover something along those lines.

I understand and agree with your point. As stated before, Muslims do not have to pray if they are unable to physically so this could potentially apply here for the Mecca issue. However, I do not like the way in which this issue was presented in this article stating it as if someone preventably passed away because a Muslim demanded that their bed be moved while the patient required urgent attention.

 

[League54]

I dunno, I support laws that protect the rights of underrepresented minorities, but passing this law is saying that secular institutions have an obligation to fulfill religious duties. I dunno how OK I would be with that. As a Muslim I know how important it is to pray 5 times a day, but I would never expect nurses at a secular hospital to turn my bed for me, and I would certainly never expect this to be passed as law. I think there is a difference between protecting rights and forcing others to fulfill them for you.

Well said, thanks for the input

 

[Phenol312]

The question was, how do you know which way you're facing. These are answers...


Jews, you mean?

Aside from the no meat on Fridays and fasting on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, there aren't a lot of Lent food restrictions.

I suspect that if they know, they'll accomodate you.

Yes, Jews...all my jewish friends refer to themselves as hebrews...am i missing something?

Actually, although this isn't widely practiced anymore during lent catholics were required to fast during every friday and not just abstain from meat. The church has since changed its policy but some people still stick to the old requirements.

 

[Kthanksbye]

Unfortunately I was right. I WARNED YOU!!!

OK, everyone's BANNED! All of you! (I know they've been waiting ban me anyway). I'm hitting the complaint buttons for all of you!!!!

 

[Phenol312]

I understand and agree with your point. As stated before, Muslims do not have to pray if they are unable to physically so this could potentially apply here for the Mecca issue. However, I do not like the way in which this issue was presented in this article stating it as if someone preventable died because a Muslim demanded that their bed be moved while the patient required urgent attention.

yeah it was obviously written to inflame...fox news is crap...

I think we all know this lol

 

[League54]

I understand and agree with your point. As stated before, Muslims do not have to pray if they are unable to physically so this could potentially apply here for the Mecca issue. However, I do not like the way in which this issue was presented in this article stating it as if someone preventable died because a Muslim demanded that their bed be moved while the patient required urgent attention.

That's Fox News for ya!

 

[Kthanksbye]

what is Ka'bah and (I know this is stupid) what is Mecca? It's the big wall, right? And there's a tower there? what's the significance of that?

I mean I know it's significant, like the most holiest of places or something, but why? was Muhammed there?

Wow...um...five seconds on wikipedia would answer this. Try it. You'll see.

 

[Phenol312]

easy for you to say when you're not taking the beef

I've taken my fair share of beef in my day ... we all have.

I think with time we all learn that we have to cut each other some slack...we can't always be walking on egg shells with everyone around us. We would all be neurotic wrecks...well more than we are now at least.

If i offend you and you forgive me then I do the same for you and so on...

pay it forward...yaknow?

 

[154465]

what is Ka'bah and (I know this is stupid) what is Mecca? It's the big wall, right? And there's a tower there? what's the significance of that?

I mean I know it's significant, like the most holiest of places or something, but why? was Muhammed there?

Kaaba is a cube shaped building in Saudi Arabia that was holy since before the beginning of Islam. It was built by Abraham and Ismail. The significance is that it is the (figurative) center of the Islamic world, it represents (as Ahmed stated earlier) God's throne on earth.

 

[Kthanksbye]

yeah it was obviously written to inflame...fox news is crap...

I think we all know this lol

Fox news leans right, that's true. But just because it's THE ONLY NEWS SOURCE on television that does so does not incriminate it. All other news sources are much farther LEFT than fox is right. Why doesn't everyone complain about NPR, which was independently determined to be the single MOST left leaning mainstream news source in America, and much more biased than fox.


The Liberal Media Bias? Harvard Confirms It

Even Harvard Finds The Media Biased

 

[armybound]

Wow...um...five seconds on wikipedia would answer this. Try it. You'll see.

Wikipedia has no human interaction. I could find most of the answers to my questions if I searched the internet long enough, but where's the fun in that? I'm enjoying the enlightenment these people are giving me. Plus I probably wouldn't understand a lot of that stuff without the proper context.

Kaaba is a cube shaped building in Saudi Arabia that was holy since before the beginning of Islam. It was built by Abraham and Ismail. The significance is that it is the (figurative) center of the Islamic world, it represents (as Ahmed stated earlier) God's throne on earth.

in Saudi Arabia, huh.. I bet that pisses a lot of the more conservative Muslim world off.

well again, thanks for the information

 

[Phenol312]

Fox news leans right, that's true. But just because it's THE ONLY NEWS SOURCE on television that does so does not incriminate it. All other news sources are much farther LEFT than fox is right. Why doesn't everyone complain about NPR, which was independently determined to be the single MOST left leaning mainstream news source in America, and much more biased than fox.


The Liberal Media Bias? Harvard Confirms It

Even Harvard Finds The Media Biased

Well, to be honest I just said this because when I have the news on in the morning FOX always seems to be covering the most trivial of topics...like KFed's new clothing line or some dog that can do backflip. And then its on to something flat out depressing like some pregnant mother who was shot to death in queens by a 10 year old crack addict...i'm exaggerating here but the point is fox never puts me in a good mood in the morning so i dont like them

Colbert report is the best source of news

:sarcasm intended:

 

[154465]

Wikipedia has no human interaction. I could find most of the answers to my questions if I searched the internet long enough, but where's the fun in that? I'm enjoying the enlightenment these people are giving me. Plus I probably wouldn't understand a lot of that stuff without the proper context.


in Saudi Arabia, huh.. I bet that pisses a lot of the more conservative Muslim world off.

well again, thanks for the information

Hey, NP. This is the only thread within the past month in which I didn't simply post to complain about this cycle.

 

[kami333]

One question: how many patients/day are we talking about?

 

[Maxwell Edison]

So presuming that the trend in the UK doesn't catch on here in the US (in the sense of making the practice of regular bed-rotation policy), do you think that physicians have a responsibility to honor this request should it arise in a professional setting?

 

[armybound]

One question: how many patients/day are we talking about?

I'm pretty sure there's a large Muslim population in England..

So presuming that the trend in the UK doesn't catch on here in the US (in the sense of making the practice of regular bed-rotation policy), do you think that physicians have a responsibility to honor this request should it arise in a professional setting?

Just my opinion.. since it's not directly related to care, physicians don't have that responsibility, just like you don't have to be sympathetic, shake your patient's hand, or give their family consolation. But like any other "extra," being sympathetic to your patients' religious beliefs is the sign of a good, caring doctor.

 

[Kthanksbye]

Well, to be honest I just said this because when I have the news on in the morning FOX always seems to be covering the most trivial of topics...like KFed's new clothing line or some dog that can do backflip. And then its on to something flat out depressing like some pregnant mother who was shot to death in queens by a 10 year old crack addict...i'm exaggerating here but the point is fox never puts me in a good mood in the morning so i dont like them

Colbert report is the best source of news

:sarcasm intended:

Well, yea...morning news.... All 24 hour TV news is hopeless during the morning and daytime, only getting marginally better in the evening. This is not unique to fox. But usually when people complain about fox, they are complaining about it being right of center, which is only sacrilege in the context of every other news source in America being pretty far left. So naturally, this is what I think of when people complain about fox.

 

[kami333]

I'm pretty sure there's a large Muslim population in England..

There is.

But still, the biggest question to me is, how many patients/day are in the hospital, Muslim, who are unable to move by themselves or have a friend/family help them prepare for prayer, and want to face towards Mecca to pray?

 

[HumidBeing]

I have a question for Cheetos. I've had a small problem understanding the "sunrise" prayer time, maybe all of the prayer times. Some of my friends say they get up at something like 3 AM (that was before we went to Standard Time for the winter) to pray, but sunrise wasn't until nearly 7 AM here. Do the designated times go by where one is located, or by some other timing. I know Friday prayers were always at noon, because we always had to plan on doing things after 3 PM on Fridays.

I know these are sort of dumb questions, but I thought I'd ask you instead of them because I feel like I ask them a lot of dumb questions, as it is.

 

[154465]

I have a question for Cheetos. I've had a small problem understanding the "sunrise" prayer time, maybe all of the prayer times. Some of my friends say they get up at something like 3 AM (that was before we went to Standard Time for the winter) to pray, but sunrise wasn't until nearly 7 AM here. Do the designated times go by where one is located, or by some other timing. I know Friday prayers were always at noon, because we always had to plan on doing things after 3 PM on Fridays.

I know these are sort of dumb questions, but I thought I'd ask you instead of them because I feel like I ask them a lot of dumb questions, as it is.

The prayer at 3AM is called Fajr and that is technically the required one. The sunrise at around 7AM is usually an extra prayer people can choose to pray or not pray. At least thats how I was taught.

 

[Cataract]

Is it proper to pray laying on your back anyway? Assuming the patients are supine, shouldn't they be on prayer mats and require getting out of bed?

 

[Bartelby]

In my personal practice I would be fine with turning beds so that Muslims could pray. You don't want people having to worry about these kinds of things while sick or right after surgery, and the prayer is probably therapeutic (even if you are atheist, you can believe in a placebo effect). It probably does a lot of good for a little effort.

That said, I do not think it should be legally mandated. It sets a precedent that lets religious groups bully private care providers into doing things that are not medically necessary.

 

[154465]

So presuming that the trend in the UK doesn't catch on here in the US (in the sense of making the practice of regular bed-rotation policy), do you think that physicians have a responsibility to honor this request should it arise in a professional setting?

I personally don't think it should ever, or will ever, become a responsibility for physicians or nurses to honor. At least not in the US.

 

[154465]

Is it proper to pray laying on your back anyway? Assuming the patients are supine, shouldn't they be on prayer mats and require getting out of bed?

Yea, Islam is a whole lot more flexible than people tend to think. People can pray any way possible, and don't have to if they can't. Same with fasting and such things.

Is there any particular reason why they need to ever face AWAY from Mecca? It seems like a simpler solution would be to just have a few wards where the beds just face East all the time.

It was stated earlier that Muslims don't ever need to face away from Mecca, maybe the article got it wrong or something. It seems like a hassle to do it 5 times a day.

 

[Maxwell Edison]

The reason I ask is because prayer does have a profound health effect, and so manipulating beds could be considered good medicine. Problematically, when you start working to accommodate every religious need, it would become difficult to run a hospital (but this is a slippery slope argument, which generally means bull****, IMHO).

 

[armybound]

The prayer at 3AM is called Fajr and that is technically the required one. The sunrise at around 7AM is usually an extra prayer people can choose to pray or not pray. At least thats how I was taught.

duuude you wake up at 3am to pray? THAT'S some religious devotion.

 

[Maxwell Edison]

And let me add here that I find the whole matter of FoxNews reporting this funny. It continues to show their preoccupation with attempting to curb what they must see as the imminent conquest of Western civilization by Muslim interlopers. Every time a foot bath appears somewhere, trust Fox to be on top of it.

 

[154465]

duuude you wake up at 3am to pray? THAT'S some religious devotion.

These past few months I've barely slept. Thanks med school, you've made me more religious.

 

[154465]

And let me add here that I find the whole matter of FoxNews reporting this funny. It continues to show their preoccupation with attempting to curb what they must see as the imminent conquest of Western civilization by Muslim interlopers. Every time a foot bath appears somewhere, trust Fox to be on top of it.

Don't forget kittens trapped in tree's and the occasional Paris Hilton sex romp. CNN isn't much better though...

Edit: Kiran Chetry and Erica Hill are reason enough to watch Fox and CNN though.

 

[MamadP]

The prayer at 3AM is called Fajr and that is technically the required one. The sunrise at around 7AM is usually an extra prayer people can choose to pray or not pray. At least thats how I was taught.

I think you got it the other way around. Fajr prayer is around 6am these days and you can pray fajr until around 7:15, which is sunrise. The rule is that about 1hr 30min before sunrise is when you can pray the Fajr prayer (morning prayer) up until the sun rises. The prayer at 3AM is the optional one from my understanding. It can be prayed anytime after midnight until Fajr time. I have never even done it myself (there are so many optional prayers one can perform).

 

[whittle]

So presuming that the trend in the UK doesn't catch on here in the US (in the sense of making the practice of regular bed-rotation policy), do you think that physicians have a responsibility to honor this request should it arise in a professional setting?

Absolutely not.

 

[Maxwell Edison]

CNN's perverse fixation lately seems to be the fabrication of nonexistent turmoil between candidates in the democratic primary. Every disagreement is publicized with a small hint of perversity.

Previous fixation? Trying to raise a panic about microorganisms. First it was some small resurgence of necotizing fasciitis in the summer, then brain-eating amoebas in the fall, and finally the money shot: MRSA.

Still, I'd take CNN over Fox News.

 

[armybound]

I think you got it the other way around. Fajr prayer is around 6am these days and you can pray fajr until around 7:15, which is sunrise. The rule is that about 1hr 30min before sunrise is when you can pray the Fajr prayer (morning prayer) up until the sun rises. The prayer at 3AM is the optional one from my understanding. It can be prayed anytime after midnight until Fajr time. I have never even done it myself (there are so many optional prayers one can perform).

does fajr last an hour and a half or do you just have that window in which you have to pray at some point?

is there a scripted prayer you recite? how long does it take?