Big vs Little

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Think a lot of you heard my preamble during that webinar.

So much of that rings true. There is a “club” that most of us aren’t a part of, sometimes by choice but sometimes because of the clique-y nature of a once elite field. And you see this on interactions on Twitter.

Recently, I’ve noticed this with the way people “socially discipline”. If it’s someone who is “small”, there will be a “call out” or some “tsk-tsk”. But, if the bad actor is “big”, there is a deafening silence, especially from those that are so quick to call out the various other “-ism”s to that are “ailing” our field. My buddy Matt got insulted by a chairman and no one said a word. His own faculty say to me “that’s *** being ***” and laugh. If my doc spoke to someone like that online, they’d hear about it and be told to act like a decent human being and not someone that doesn’t have to hew to community standards of behavior. And that’s if they were above or below me in the hierarchy.

And, the constant expectation to kiss the ring, act like best buds with people you don’t know.. I get it. President Eichler says in this era we have to network, and he isn’t wrong. But, it’s an indictment of where we are at in that “the good practices don’t post jobs” and that we have to somehow find ourselves at the same conference or other boondoggle to get an in to find ourselves a job? What if you’re just not that social ? What if you aren’t as comfortable in those situations but are an incredibly effective clinician? How do you find your way? This “networking” approach systemically excludes many excellent people and it shouldn’t be pushed by leadership as how we should find a job.

I love that you think I have cojones. I do - I admit that. I push the envelope. But, remember, these are just people like you and me. Just because they don’t like to be challenged or act annoyed by it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it. If they want to be public figures, talk about things, publish things - the modern medical landscape has changed. I don’t care if you’re the chairman or Madame Curie, herself - you are not better than us.

And finally just wanted to say, leadership is by example and by what you do, not what you say or “like” or write. I left my group to join one that I am more aligned with and have an opportunity to make a difference. And with intention, I changed to a cancer center led by a woman (a brilliant one, if you’re wondering), my physics leads are women, my dyad admin partner is woman. The highest earner at my practice was a woman (by far). So, do think of the voices that talk about this stuff - and see what they are actually doing, what kind of practices they join and what those practices look like and who they are led by.

Think about financial toxicity, and who is doing what and where they work. Do they talk about value based care and proselytize about it, or do they practice it? And this means more than fractions and technique. What do their costs and charges look like? Do they question their own practice and cost-ineffectiveness?

I’m creating a practice where we are thoughtful, where we listen, where we are cognizant about the future of our field. My joint runs Ph1-4 trials, has a robust cancer center, and more than enough volume to potentially start a residency. Will we? **** no. Never. I never will. But, we are doing some great things with peer review, workflow optimization (stay tuned for a possible event at Astro!), and we will continue to grow. I will definitely need a few in the coming years but we won’t hire based on “projections”. Once we secure the work, and make sure everyone agrees, we will hire. I think 10k rvu per doc is a worthy goal (until we find a better way to measure) and allows us to earn a great income without killing ourselves. That’s with an admin day at home- this should be standard - if not, ask why? We also don’t tell each other how to practice, but if I do something dumb, my folks are not afraid to tell me (and they have!). Peer review does not work well when ego and hierarchy play a large role. The wrong dose or volume is wrong even if the person doing it is a Gold Medalist.

You guys rock. Keep it up! I’ll see you here and on The Bird, and MedNet. Sorry I’ve been a stranger!

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Think a lot of you heard my preamble during that webinar.

So much of that rings true. There is a “club” that most of us aren’t a part of, sometimes by choice but sometimes because of the clique-y nature of a once elite field. And you see this on interactions on Twitter.

Recently, I’ve noticed this with the way people “socially discipline”. If it’s someone who is “small”, there will be a “call out” or some “tsk-tsk”. But, if the bad actor is “big”, there is a deafening silence, especially from those that are so quick to call out the various other “-ism”s to that are “ailing” our field. My buddy Matt got insulted by a chairman and no one said a word. His own faculty say to me “that’s *** being ***” and laugh. If my doc spoke to someone like that online, they’d hear about it and be told to act like a decent human being and not someone that doesn’t have to hew to community standards of behavior. And that’s if they were above or below me in the hierarchy.

And, the constant expectation to kiss the ring, act like best buds with people you don’t know.. I get it. President Eichler says in this era we have to network, and he isn’t wrong. But, it’s an indictment of where we are at in that “the good practices don’t post jobs” and that we have to somehow find ourselves at the same conference or other boondoggle to get an in to find ourselves a job? What if you’re just not that social ? What if you aren’t as comfortable in those situations but are an incredibly effective clinician? How do you find your way? This “networking” approach systemically excludes many excellent people and it shouldn’t be pushed by leadership as how we should find a job.

I love that you think I have cojones. I do - I admit that. I push the envelope. But, remember, these are just people like you and me. Just because they don’t like to be challenged or act annoyed by it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it. If they want to be public figures, talk about things, publish things - the modern medical landscape has changed. I don’t care if you’re the chairman or Madame Curie, herself - you are not better than us.

And finally just wanted to say, leadership is by example and by what you do, not what you say or “like” or write. I left my group to join one that I am more aligned with and have an opportunity to make a difference. And with intention, I changed to a cancer center led by a woman (a brilliant one, if you’re wondering), my physics leads are women, my dyad admin partner is woman. The highest earner at my practice was a woman (by far). So, do think of the voices that talk about this stuff - and see what they are actually doing, what kind of practices they join and what those practices look like and who they are led by.

Think about financial toxicity, and who is doing what and where they work. Do they talk about value based care and proselytize about it, or do they practice it? And this means more than fractions and technique. What do their costs and charges look like? Do they question their own practice and cost-ineffectiveness?

I’m creating a practice where we are thoughtful, where we listen, where we are cognizant about the future of our field. My joint runs Ph1-4 trials, has a robust cancer center, and more than enough volume to potentially start a residency. Will we? **** no. Never. I never will. But, we are doing some great things with peer review, workflow optimization (stay tuned for a possible event at Astro!), and we will continue to grow. I will definitely need a few in the coming years but we won’t hire based on “projections”. Once we secure the work, and make sure everyone agrees, we will hire. I think 10k rvu per doc is a worthy goal (until we find a better way to measure) and allows us to earn a great income without killing ourselves. That’s with an admin day at home- this should be standard - if not, ask why? We also don’t tell each other how to practice, but if I do something dumb, my folks are not afraid to tell me (and they have!). Peer review does not work well when ego and hierarchy play a large role. The wrong dose or volume is wrong even if the person doing it is a Gold Medalist.

You guys rock. Keep it up! I’ll see you here and on The Bird, and MedNet. Sorry I’ve been a stranger!
Thank you. Relative to other specialties it should be assumed that radonc has more posted jobs. I think we have the highest percentage of employed doctors in large/academic systems. They all require posted jobs. Love the networking argument that somehow implies that if all residents networked, more jobs will be created to accommodate them (pin the blame on the resident)
 
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Think a lot of you heard my preamble during that webinar.

So much of that rings true. There is a “club” that most of us aren’t a part of, sometimes by choice but sometimes because of the clique-y nature of a once elite field. And you see this on interactions on Twitter.

Recently, I’ve noticed this with the way people “socially discipline”. If it’s someone who is “small”, there will be a “call out” or some “tsk-tsk”. But, if the bad actor is “big”, there is a deafening silence, especially from those that are so quick to call out the various other “-ism”s to that are “ailing” our field. My buddy Matt got insulted by a chairman and no one said a word. His own faculty say to me “that’s *** being ***” and laugh. If my doc spoke to someone like that online, they’d hear about it and be told to act like a decent human being and not someone that doesn’t have to hew to community standards of behavior. And that’s if they were above or below me in the hierarchy.

And, the constant expectation to kiss the ring, act like best buds with people you don’t know.. I get it. President Eichler says in this era we have to network, and he isn’t wrong. But, it’s an indictment of where we are at in that “the good practices don’t post jobs” and that we have to somehow find ourselves at the same conference or other boondoggle to get an in to find ourselves a job? What if you’re just not that social ? What if you aren’t as comfortable in those situations but are an incredibly effective clinician? How do you find your way? This “networking” approach systemically excludes many excellent people and it shouldn’t be pushed by leadership as how we should find a job.

I love that you think I have cojones. I do - I admit that. I push the envelope. But, remember, these are just people like you and me. Just because they don’t like to be challenged or act annoyed by it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it. If they want to be public figures, talk about things, publish things - the modern medical landscape has changed. I don’t care if you’re the chairman or Madame Curie, herself - you are not better than us.

And finally just wanted to say, leadership is by example and by what you do, not what you say or “like” or write. I left my group to join one that I am more aligned with and have an opportunity to make a difference. And with intention, I changed to a cancer center led by a woman (a brilliant one, if you’re wondering), my physics leads are women, my dyad admin partner is woman. The highest earner at my practice was a woman (by far). So, do think of the voices that talk about this stuff - and see what they are actually doing, what kind of practices they join and what those practices look like and who they are led by.

Think about financial toxicity, and who is doing what and where they work. Do they talk about value based care and proselytize about it, or do they practice it? And this means more than fractions and technique. What do their costs and charges look like? Do they question their own practice and cost-ineffectiveness?

I’m creating a practice where we are thoughtful, where we listen, where we are cognizant about the future of our field. My joint runs Ph1-4 trials, has a robust cancer center, and more than enough volume to potentially start a residency. Will we? **** no. Never. I never will. But, we are doing some great things with peer review, workflow optimization (stay tuned for a possible event at Astro!), and we will continue to grow. I will definitely need a few in the coming years but we won’t hire based on “projections”. Once we secure the work, and make sure everyone agrees, we will hire. I think 10k rvu per doc is a worthy goal (until we find a better way to measure) and allows us to earn a great income without killing ourselves. That’s with an admin day at home- this should be standard - if not, ask why? We also don’t tell each other how to practice, but if I do something dumb, my folks are not afraid to tell me (and they have!). Peer review does not work well when ego and hierarchy play a large role. The wrong dose or volume is wrong even if the person doing it is a Gold Medalist.

You guys rock. Keep it up! I’ll see you here and on The Bird, and MedNet. Sorry I’ve been a stranger!
You are awesome and I greatly appreciate the cajones and speaking out on these issues!
 
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Lots of low energy weak sauce (often of the boomer variety) in power in rad Onc academic dept and private practice leadership now, unfortunately. A product of when these people were matched and trained within the cycle decades ago.

Will take time to work all that rot out
 
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Thank you. Relative to other specialties it should be assumed that radonc has more posted jobs. I think we have the highest percentage of employed doctors in large/academic systems. They all require posted jobs. Love the networking argument that somehow implies that if all residents networked, more jobs will be created to accommodate them (pin the blame on the resident)
I don’t think when people say that they are necessarily trying to blame the resident. I think it reflects a far greater failure to grasp the fact that our market and its inner workings have changed greatly in the past decade. People just keep repeating what they have been saying for 20+ years.
 
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wonderful reasons to completely avoid twitter and facebook.
 
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Not to diverge too far, but I have recently come to see just how powerful time can be at cementing people's opinions when they have the opportunity to keep repeating the same lines over and over again. My wife is now reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos (one of my favorite books of all time) and was struck by the fact that it was first published in 1980 and he talked about the theoretical concerns of CO2-related global warming. Granted, at the time there were no ice cores and not great evidence of prolonged global climate change but still was there any real doubt about what will happen if we just keep pumping out gigatons of emissions unchecked year after year? Not really. The physics is pretty clear. The only real question at the time was time scale. At the time it was entirely appropriate for people to say its an interesting idea but we need more time and data to understand if what we are seeing today is part of a longer-term trend or evidence of human activity. Now, 40 years later with data in hand people that deny global warming just keep repeating the same concerns that held a lot more validity in the early 80s.

Why am I talking about this? Well, was there ever any real doubt what would happen if we expanded total residency positions almost 2 fold without any market evidence this was needed? Nope. But the effects were delayed enough that the people making those decisions could keep repeating all the reasons they thought it would work out or keep saying it might be a problem down the road but we really can't know when. And now that we have ample evidence about not only what is happening but why it is happening, too many of those same people are still repeating the same lines of bull**** even though they obviously hold no water anymore.

Denial is a power political tool that has been efficiently weaponized. Unfortunately, we are all part of one big political body (even if you are in private practice). Its quite sad.
 
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Also the burden of proof is reversed. The onus is on those who doubled residents to deliver data that shows the expansion was justified not visa verse. Instead we have a bunch of where’s the evidence Idiots demanding to see unemployed radoncs.
 
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. Unfortunately, we are all part of one big political body (even if you are in private practice). Its quite sad.
Yup. There has clearly been a minority of individuals responsible for this however, distinct from the majority of us.

ASTROs (non) response so far has been disappointing and basically their silence shows they are complicit (many of their members are responsible for this predicament, and the issues leading up to it like supervision regs idiocy, fighting payment reform for years, attacking urorads etc).
 
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Not to diverge too far, but I have recently come to see just how powerful time can be at cementing people's opinions when they have the opportunity to keep repeating the same lines over and over again. My wife is now reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos (one of my favorite books of all time) and was struck by the fact that it was first published in 1980 and he talked about the theoretical concerns of CO2-related global warming. Granted, at the time there were no ice cores and not great evidence of prolonged global climate change but still was there any real doubt about what will happen if we just keep pumping out gigatons of emissions unchecked year after year? Not really. The physics is pretty clear. The only real question at the time was time scale. At the time it was entirely appropriate for people to say its an interesting idea but we need more time and data to understand if what we are seeing today is part of a longer-term trend or evidence of human activity. Now, 40 years later with data in hand people that deny global warming just keep repeating the same concerns that held a lot more validity in the early 80s.

Why am I talking about this? Well, was there ever any real doubt what would happen if we expanded total residency positions almost 2 fold without any market evidence this was needed? Nope. But the effects were delayed enough that the people making those decisions could keep repeating all the reasons they thought it would work out or keep saying it might be a problem down the road but we really can't know when. And now that we have ample evidence about not only what is happening but why it is happening, too many of those same people are still repeating the same lines of bull**** even though they obviously hold no water anymore.

Denial is a power political tool that has been efficiently weaponized. Unfortunately, we are all part of one big political body (even if you are in private practice). Its quite sad.
We may wind up like Venus. (Inside COSMOS joke)
 
In this analogy, COSMOS is "little" Rad Onc and the Red Necks are the ivory-tower academicians.


Cosmos is equal parts amazing and horrifying. Amazing to consider a thoughtful review of scientific progress and horrifying to see solid proof that we really can regress very far back if the powers at be stand to profit from ignorance. In 240 BC not only did Eratothenes reason that the earth was round, using basic math and reasoned experiments he correctly estimated its diameter to within 5% of the correct value. This and many other inconvenient scientific factoids were intentionally suppressed with the rise of Western religions for over a thousand years. I try hard not to be an alarmist, but the global rise of science denial scares the heck out of me. You can chalk a lot up to ignorance if you want to feel a little better, but looking at examples like our own field, there is clear evidence of very smart people intentionally making very dumb decisions for self serving reasons. Its getting harder and harder not to be a nihilist.
 
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There is a global loss of civic virtue but very notable in the United States.

1. "Mah rights" supersede everything including the common good, helping your fellow man, and each person doing their part.
2. Fear of litigation which paralyzes people to inaction. In medicine we all have colleagues who are terrible and we would never want anyone to deal with. Yet, when people ask us for references for these terrible colleagues we often give a bland, sterilized, HR-approved response. This leads to perpetuation of bad clinical outcomes but saves you from the inconvenience of potential litigation.
3. Loss of empathy and humanity. People are so hyper-focused on what is good for them that they cannot relate to the problems of others. This makes it impossible to create government-sponsored safety nets.
4. Willful partisan ignorance - everything is a political issue. An organ transplant recipient who is not able to undergo a COVID vaccination should not be ostracized for wearing a mask in public.
5. Plutocracy - the hyper-rich rule over all and have the means to legally bribe government officials.

It's like the prelude to the Fall of Roman Empire.
 
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There is a global loss of civic virtue but very notable in the United States.

1. "Mah rights" supersede everything including the common good, helping your fellow man, and each person doing their part.
2. Fear of litigation which paralyzes people to inaction. In medicine we all have colleagues who are terrible and we would never want anyone to deal with. Yet, when people ask us for references for these terrible colleagues we often give a bland, sterilized, HR-approved responses. This leads to perpetuation of bad clinical outcomes but saves you from the inconvenience of potential litigation.
3. Loss of empathy and humanity. People are so hyper-focused on what is good for them that they cannot relate to the problems of others. This makes it impossible to create government-sponsored safety nets.
4. Willful partisan ignorance - everything is a political issue. An organ transplant recipient who is not able to undergo a COVID vaccination should not be ostracized for wearing a mask in public.
5. Plutocracy - the hyper-rich rule over all and have the means to legally bribe government officials.

It's like the prelude to the Fall of Roman Empire.
1626714914961.jpeg
 
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The signals were there several decades ago.

I am personally not a huge fan of the 'blaming the elites' trope. Part of the reason is that, for centuries, it has been a dog whistle for antisemitism... and I have seen this first hand (not to imply that any here intend it that way). Who gets to decide who these troublesome elites are? It's much cleaner to take issue with troublesome ideas than it is to identify a cabal who bear ultimately responsibility.
 
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I am personally not a huge fan of the 'blaming the elites' trope. Part of the reason is that, for centuries, it has been a dog whistle for antisemitism... and I have seen this first hand (not to imply that any here intend it that way). Who gets to decide who these troublesome elites are? It's much cleaner to take issue with troublesome ideas than it is to identify a cabal who bear ultimately responsibility.
Lately the "elites" seem to be on the side of science and facts. Lots of overlap between the anti science/anti "elite" crowd. Flat earthers have been with us since the beginning of time, nothing has changed there
 
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I am personally not a huge fan of the 'blaming the elites' trope. Part of the reason is that, for centuries, it has been a dog whistle for antisemitism... and I have seen this first hand (not to imply that any here intend it that way). Who gets to decide who these troublesome elites are? It's much cleaner to take issue with troublesome ideas than it is to identify a cabal who bear ultimately responsibility.
I recommend reading the book before accusing the author of anti-semitism. I think you will find that his analysis is much more complicated than your response suggests.
 
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Lately the "elites" seem to be on the side of science and facts. Lots of overlap between the anti science/anti "elite" crowd. Flat earthers have been with us since the beginning of time, nothing has changed there
Your response suggests you haven't read the book. Lasch was not making this argument and to suggest he is a flat earther is laughable.
 
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I recommend reading the book before accusing the author of anti-semitism. I think you will find that his analysis is much more complicated than your response suggests.
I didn't accuse the author of antisemitism as this would be kinda silly without reading the book. Furthermore, I know full well that many who use this reference would be surprised to know that anyone would use it to express antisemitism, as I doubt anyone here means it this way. Truth is though... many people DO mean it that way, which makes it messy.

What do you define as an "elitist"?
 
Our field is elitist and we are precisely suffering the consequences of this country club good ole boy culture.
 
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I don't need to read his book to know what has gone on since the pandemic started
I didn't accuse the author of antisemitism as this would be kinda silly without reading the book. Furthermore, I know full well that many who use this reference would be surprised to know that anyone would use it to express antisemitism, as I doubt anyone here means it this way. Truth is though... many people DO mean it that way, which makes it messy.

What do you define as an "elitist"?
My definition is not germane. Lasch's definition (from memory so may not be exact) is those that control money, information, institution of higher learning, define high culture and generally set the terms of public debate.

I referenced the book because I believe ASTRO (or in Simul's framework Big RadOnc) does all of these things. The decisions they make on what to include in the Annual Meeting, whom to invite, interactions with government and politicians, resident expansion, etc are very influential and they often act in ways that penalize "little RadOnc".

Lasch was a classical liberal. According to Wikipedia
Robert Christopher Lasch (June 1, 1932 – February 14, 1994) was an American historian, moralist, and social critic who was a history professor at the University of Rochester. Lasch sought to use history as a tool to awaken American society to the pervasiveness with which major institutions, public and private, were eroding the competence and independence of families and communities. He strove to create a historically informed social criticism that could teach Americans how to deal with rampant consumerism, proletarianization, and what he famously labeled "the culture of narcissism".

My point was that our leaders by their actions are making things worse.
 
What happened to the "accelerators" thread? @evilbooyaa @Neuronix ? Hope we aren't going the way of ASTRO RO hub?

Simul edited his first post, removing all the details. In general on SDN, once the first post is edited to remove all information, it's very common to delete the thread. Not sure if Simul requested deletion of the post or not.

SDN welcomes the accelerator podcast.
 
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Simul edited his first post, removing all the details. In general on SDN, once the first post is edited to remove all information, it's very common to delete the thread. Not sure if Simul requested deletion of the post or not.

SDN welcomes the accelerator podcast.
I plan to listen unless they start discussing something woke
 
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