Best way to market/get new patients in Ophtho

[Perforin]

To those who may know something about this subject, how to most Ophthalmologists who are starting a solo practice go about marketing to get new patients? I would assume things like mail flyers, maybe newspaper ads, and visiting optometrists/ophthalmologists. I was wondering how you would go about asking a random optometrist to send patients to you, would you promise to send people to their place to get glasses? I obviously have no business experience, which is why I'm asking how people finally get their practices to fill up.

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[Meibomian SxN]

To those who may know something about this subject, how to most Ophthalmologists who are starting a solo practice go about marketing to get new patients? I would assume things like mail flyers, maybe newspaper ads, and visiting optometrists/ophthalmologists. I was wondering how you would go about asking a random optometrist to send patients to you, would you promise to send people to their place to get glasses? I obviously have no business experience, which is why I'm asking how people finally get their practices to fill up.

I've seen some Ophthalmologists invite the OD to dinner, which tends to work well; while others just mail a letter with business cards explaining their practice.

I personally prefer when MDs stop in the office with breakfast/lunch or invite me out to dinner to discuss "business." It shows respect for the doctor and also shows that you have "bed side manners." It's hard to gauge a surgeon's skill just off face value, so I tend to judge by character.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I've seen some Ophthalmologists invite the OD to dinner, which tends to work well; while others just mail a letter with business cards explaining their practice.

I personally prefer when MDs stop in the office with breakfast/lunch or invite me out to dinner to discuss "business." It shows respect for the doctor and also shows that you have "bed side manners." It's hard to gauge a surgeon's skill just off face value, so I tend to judge by character.

It seems by your post that you judge by the amount of free food you get, not by "character," unless graft is a character trait you value. Tell me, does your assessment of "bedside manners" require ophthalmologists provide you catered meals in bed?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

To those who may know something about this subject, how to most Ophthalmologists who are starting a solo practice go about marketing to get new patients? I would assume things like mail flyers, maybe newspaper ads, and visiting optometrists/ophthalmologists. I was wondering how you would go about asking a random optometrist to send patients to you, would you promise to send people to their place to get glasses? I obviously have no business experience, which is why I'm asking how people finally get their practices to fill up.

A friendly quick visit is a good idea. Show some respect for their time and keep the visit short. One other way is to prepare and give a talk at a public venue. If you want to do that in a restaurant, that is OK. What is most important is that you arrange for the talk to provide CME credit through one of the regional or national accrediting bodies for optometry. It isn't free food that attracts an audience; optoms make plenty and can eat where they want. Free CME is what brings an audience.

Also, keep mailings simple. A one-page letter and some business cards is so much cheaper and more effective than a costly "package" mailing with custom-printed folders and brochures and other stuff that only gets lost in a drawer.

Also, being available to see problems on short notice is a good thing for practice development. Do it cheerfully and send a reply ASAP. You want to be seen as a fixer (but not a briber, as Meibomian SxN unfortunately suggests.)

 

[Eyefixer]

I love it.

It seems by your post that you judge by the amount of free food you get, not by "character," unless graft is a character trait you value. Tell me, does your assessment of "bedside manners" require ophthalmologists provide you catered meals in bed?

 

[Visionary]

You also need to factor in what you're bringing to the table. You mentioned contacting other ophthalmologists. Are you subspecialty-trained? If not, are you comfortable with some procedures/surgeries that other comprehensive docs aren't, such as filters or muscles? Are you doing anything that other comprehensive docs in the area aren't, such as advanced imaging/procedures? Your answers will determine who your audience should be. Then, target them specifically and highlight what you have to offer. I also agree with orbitsurgMD, in that you should make yourself available on short notice and give rapid feedback to your referring docs. Shouldn't be hard, if you're starting cold.

 

[eyehope]

A friendly quick visit is a good idea. Show some respect for their time and keep the visit short. One other way is to prepare and give a talk at a public venue. If you want to do that in a restaurant, that is OK. What is most important is that you arrange for the talk to provide CME credit through one of the regional or national accrediting bodies for optometry. It isn't free food that attracts an audience; optoms make plenty and can eat where they want. Free CME is what brings an audience.

Also, keep mailings simple. A one-page letter and some business cards is so much cheaper and more effective than a costly "package" mailing with custom-printed folders and brochures and other stuff that only gets lost in a drawer.

Also, being available to see problems on short notice is a good thing for practice development. Do it cheerfully and send a reply ASAP. You want to be seen as a fixer (but not a briber, as Meibomian SxN unfortunately suggests.)

How did you arrange to give CME credit? Did you just contact the local/state optometric accreditation board and submit a presentation or outline? Thanks.

 

[KHE]

To those who may know something about this subject, how to most Ophthalmologists who are starting a solo practice go about marketing to get new patients? I would assume things like mail flyers, maybe newspaper ads, and visiting optometrists/ophthalmologists. I was wondering how you would go about asking a random optometrist to send patients to you, would you promise to send people to their place to get glasses? I obviously have no business experience, which is why I'm asking how people finally get their practices to fill up.

As a practicing OD for 10 years, this is what I look for in an ophthalmologist to send patients to, beyond being a competent surgeon.

1) That their staff is nice. I hate it when I send patients to other providers and they come back telling me that the staff was rude or that the office manager (usually the guy's wife) was a bitch.

2) That they'll send the patient back. This seems obvious, but it is incredible the number of patients that are stolen. Yes, yes...I get it. Sometimes patients really DO want to stay with the ophthalmologist and that's fine. That's their prerogative. In fact, sometimes I'm happy that the patient stays. But in the vast majority of cases, I expect the ophthalmologist to make a reasonable effort to encourage the patient to return to my practice. And don't pull any of that stupid crap like "oh my. Your son seems to have some weird "astigmatism" here. I better see your whole family." *gag*

3) That they'll refer patients to me. Referrals are not a one way street. Very few ODs give a crap about post op specs on cataract patients. The reimbursements are miserable. But if you have some patients who need a complex contact lens fitting, send them over. Don't tell them "sorry, you have -1.75 cylinder. You can't wear contacts."

As far as graft goes, I don't give a crap about food. If you want buy me lunch, I won't turn you down but it certainly won't increase the probability of referrals, at least not from me. If you want to buy me a Ferrari, well, I could probably be bought for that.

I would also respectfully disagree about free CME. To me, that matters little. I like to go away for CE and there are all kinds of ways for ODs to obtain free CE. The last thing I want to do at the end of the day is schlepp on over to someone's office or to some "bistro" to listen to them lecture about restasis. (or anything else really)

 

[cme2c]

1) That their staff is nice. I hate it when I send patients to other providers and they come back telling me that the staff was rude or that the office manager (usually the guy's wife) was a bitch.

2) That they'll send the patient back. This seems obvious, but it is incredible the number of patients that are stolen. Yes, yes...I get it. Sometimes patients really DO want to stay with the ophthalmologist and that's fine. That's their prerogative. In fact, sometimes I'm happy that the patient stays. But in the vast majority of cases, I expect the ophthalmologist to make a reasonable effort to encourage the patient to return to my practice. And don't pull any of that stupid crap like "oh my. Your son seems to have some weird "astigmatism" here. I better see your whole family." *gag*

3) That they'll refer patients to me. Referrals are not a one way street. Very few ODs give a crap about post op specs on cataract patients. The reimbursements are miserable. But if you have some patients who need a complex contact lens fitting, send them over. Don't tell them "sorry, you have -1.75 cylinder. You can't wear contacts."

Not implying any wrongdoing here, as this is what we all expect of our referral relationships. But, I would be a little more careful in how you word that. To those practitioners just starting out, you have to be very careful when discussing this with the docs who refer to you and the docs you refer to yourself. The federal anti-Kickback statutes and similar laws address referral relationships. Expecting something in return for your referrals can violate those laws. You can land yourself in big trouble if you say things the wrong way. So just be careful.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

It seems by your post that you judge by the amount of free food you get, not by "character," unless graft is a character trait you value. Tell me, does your assessment of "bedside manners" require ophthalmologists provide you catered meals in bed?

Its general hospitality to NOT come empty handed. Especially when an oMD comes in and interrupts my short enough lunch break (if I get a lunch break at all). Common sense to me, but some doctors are too intelligent to see this. Maybe they're Harvard med/Wills Eye laurels will get them referrals...maybe some but not as many as they could have.

Again, its not about the food or free ink pens & mugs with the oMDs practice on it...its about character.

How do I know how the oMD will treat my patient? Will the surgeon address them by first name basis and hardly answer of my patients questions? Will the oMD keep the patient after catarct surgery and sell them glassses? Will the oMD allow me the post-op portion? Same for LASIK etc.

I've had some oMDs mail me a letter of their experience in surgery and some business cards and that's that. No face to face; nothing. And if you refer to them they don't send any letters back, etc.

I've had others send letters of pre-treatment/treatment, send seasonal cards etc. Everyone is different. But if I had to choose a surgeon to do a bleph Sx, I wonder which surgeon I'd choose....

 

[Meibomian SxN]

A friendly quick visit is a good idea. Show some respect for their time and keep the visit short. One other way is to prepare and give a talk at a public venue. If you want to do that in a restaurant, that is OK. What is most important is that you arrange for the talk to provide CME credit through one of the regional or national accrediting bodies for optometry. It isn't free food that attracts an audience; optoms make plenty and can eat where they want. Free CME is what brings an audience.

Also, keep mailings simple. A one-page letter and some business cards is so much cheaper and more effective than a costly "package" mailing with custom-printed folders and brochures and other stuff that only gets lost in a drawer.

Also, being available to see problems on short notice is a good thing for practice development. Do it cheerfully and send a reply ASAP. You want to be seen as a fixer (but not a briber, as Meibomian SxN unfortunately suggests.)

I guess your CMEs are bone dry with BYOB & food? Have you ever even attended a CME event? Have you not eaten a muffin, danish etc?

You seem bitter to the idea of coming to someone's office with donuts and bagels in the morning? Even at the Mercedes dealership they offer you coffe/tea/water? Again, simply put it is "common sense."

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I guess your CMEs are bone dry with BYOB & food? Have you ever even attended a CME event? Have you not eaten a muffin, danish etc?

You seem bitter to the idea of coming to someone's office with donuts and bagels in the morning? Even at the Mercedes dealership they offer you coffe/tea/water? Again, simply put it is "common sense."

I guess I must not have the kind of "character" you prefer. As for the Mercedes dealership, I wouldn't know.

My talks are well-attended and have plenty of food. They also have CME credit.

As for being bitter, you have that wrong. I sense that you are the sort of "colleague" interested only when someone has something free to give you, even if you really don't need anything for free. Apparently, you think of that as "common sense," but to me it seems petty and greedy, and not particularly collegial. But to each his own. I think that someone who has to be bought would get to be known as such pretty quickly.

 

[Mirror Form]

It seems by your post that you judge by the amount of free food you get, not by "character," unless graft is a character trait you value. Tell me, does your assessment of "bedside manners" require ophthalmologists provide you catered meals in bed?

While I agree with your point that referrals should not be about "bribery" with gifts, you're sort of overlooking a fundamental point that big pharm discovered a long time ago. That is, doctors are suckers and therefore it's all about superficial personal relationships. Both the OMD's and OD's are going to take personal relationships into account above all else when referring patients (and in fact also when prescribing meds).

As a fairly young comprehensive ophthalmologist who has no interest in anything other than the bread and butter ophtho stuff at this point, I end up referring out to subspecialists quite frequently. I wish I could say that my referrals all go to whoever I think is the best. But instead they all go to the very nice retina doc who took my wife and I out to dinner once and had us over to his house for dinner once as well. And it's really no coincidence that his group is one of the busiest in the city.

But that's the way I like it, b/c the one time I had a dropped nucleus it was nice to refer to somebody who at least pretends to be my friend.

 

[Optogal]

It seems by your post that you judge by the amount of free food you get, not by "character," unless graft is a character trait you value. Tell me, does your assessment of "bedside manners" require ophthalmologists provide you catered meals in bed?

Wow. I didn't realize ophthalmology included psychoanalysis training.

 

[KHE]

I guess I must not have the kind of "character" you prefer. As for the Mercedes dealership, I wouldn't know.

My talks are well-attended and have plenty of food. They also have CME credit.

As for being bitter, you have that wrong. I sense that you are the sort of "colleague" interested only when someone has something free to give you, even if you really don't need anything for free. Apparently, you think of that as "common sense," but to me it seems petty and greedy, and not particularly collegial. But to each his own. I think that someone who has to be bought would get to be known as such pretty quickly.

If someone wants to meet with me at lunch, then they should bring lunch or take me out for lunch. That I think is just common courtesy. But I am certainly not going to refer to someone based on whether they feed me or not. As far as bringing donuts for my staff, I don't care a lick about that. If they want to, go ahead. I'm sure my staff will eat them. If they don't, fine by me.

Food is overrated. I may not be making millions here but I can get my own food. lol

So again, for me it's this:

1) Staff is nice
2) Patients come back
3) Some referrals are directed my way too, not just a one way streeet.

That's all I need.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

So again, for me it's this:

1) Staff is nice
2) Patients come back
3) Some referrals are directed my way too, not just a one way streeet.

That's all I need.

True story: Its Monday morning at 930am. Included in today's mail was a referral pad from some ophthalmologist. No letter, no face, just a pad with the address and reason for referral....

1) How would you know this doctor has "nice staff" or in these days even "acceptable staff?"

2) Being that you have a satisfied set of referral docs already, would you take a risk and refer to someone who didn't have a cover letter, no face talk, and not even the "bribery/graft" $3 dozen donuts & Box of Joe ?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Wow. I didn't realize ophthalmology included psychoanalysis training.

That is called "observation" not "psychoanalysis training." And you don't have to go through ophthalmology training or even medical school to do it.

 

[Optogal]

I personally prefer when MDs stop in the office with breakfast/lunch or invite me out to dinner to discuss "business." It shows respect for the doctor and also shows that you have "bed side manners." It's hard to gauge a surgeon's skill just off face value, so I tend to judge by character.

It seems by your post that you judge by the amount of free food you get, not by "character," unless graft is a character trait you value. Tell me, does your assessment of "bedside manners" require ophthalmologists provide you catered meals in bed?

The OP asked a question asking how to build a practice. Part of his question included how engage the referral of optometrists. An optometrist gave an honest reply for what works with him. Maybe it has been his experience that the MDs who took the time to take him out to dinner seemed more personable and friendly than those who chose not to. Perhaps the MDs who treated him to lunch used the meal to show their human side, their character, whereas those who did not chose to treat him out never quite managed to reveal the same. The OP looked for some responses and he got one from an OD. This is what worked for the OD. Why do you criticize his reply?

What you call an "observation", others will call cynicism. Your knee-jerk response is no better than the content of the post which you criticize.

In fact, I call it worse.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I personally prefer when MDs stop in the office with breakfast/lunch or invite me out to dinner to discuss "business." It shows respect for the doctor and also shows that you have "bed side manners." It's hard to gauge a surgeon's skill just off face value, so I tend to judge by character.



The OP asked a question asking how to build a practice. Part of his question included how engage the referral of optometrists. An optometrist gave an honest reply for what works with him. Maybe it has been his experience that the MDs who took the time to take him out to dinner seemed more personable and friendly than those who chose not to. Perhaps the MDs who treated him to lunch used the meal to show their human side, their character, whereas those who did not chose to treat him out never quite managed to reveal the same. The OP looked for some responses and he got one from an OD. This is what worked for the OD. Why do you criticize his reply?

What you call an "observation", others will call cynicism. Your knee-jerk response is no better than the content of the post which you criticize.

In fact, I call it worse.

"What works for him," you wrote.

Petty bribery. Paying tribute as "business." Why do you insist on pretending it is anything else? And I don't think the poster is unique at all. The optometrists who are bought are generally known as such, if not publicly, certainly informally and among the ophthalmology community. People talk. These are not infrequently the same folks who send paying or insured patients one way and Medicaid-"insured" and indigent another way. That practice gets known pretty quickly, too.

Look, if you want ophthalmologists to wine and dine you and bring food into your offices, that is your business. That is really no different than getting tickets to sports events or any other informal quid pro quo considerations. I know some who insist on "co-management" even when it is inappropriate.

I had one optometrist actually tell me that he thought he was feeding some retina doctor's family because he sent that surgeon referrals. No thought that maybe what the surgeon was being paid for was retina evaluation and surgery and not some odd notion that a referral was some sort of gift (for someone else to do work and accept liability, don't forget). That optometrist really felt he was owed something.

So when someone slyly suggests that visits with free food and invitations to dinner might be nice if you want to be given referrals to build your practice, fine, but don't pretend that that isn't a solicitation to petty bribery, no matter what gloss of superficial collegiality you want to give it.

I know bribery works when it comes to practice building. I am not doubting that in the least.

 

[Optogal]

I've seen some Ophthalmologists invite the OD to dinner, which tends to work well; while others just mail a letter with business cards explaining their practice.

"What works for him," you wrote.

No matter how you spin it, your reply was cynical and bitter.

Chill out. You are an ophthalmologist. You have a lot to be happy about. You can choose to be miserable about your situation, or you could realize most people in the entire world would give anything to have your skills and education.

Put yourself in the position of an OD. Some MD drops off their business card explaining their practice. Another MD shows a genuine interest in developing a professional relationship with you by explaining himself over a Happy Meal. One of these folks you know, the other, you don't. Which of these two would you send off your first cataract referral to?

Further - about the "reputation" of ODs just wanting gravy all the time - don't tell me you turn down the wines-and-dines of all the pharmaceutical companies all the time. They don't even give me (an OD) the time of day - but you folks... wow.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I've seen some Ophthalmologists invite the OD to dinner, which tends to work well; while others just mail a letter with business cards explaining their practice.



No matter how you spin it, your reply was cynical and bitter.

Chill out. You are an ophthalmologist. You have a lot to be happy about. You can choose to be miserable about your situation, or you could realize most people in the entire world would give anything to have your skills and education.

Put yourself in the position of an OD. Some MD drops off their business card explaining their practice. Another MD shows a genuine interest in developing a professional relationship with you by explaining himself over a Happy Meal. One of these folks you know, the other, you don't. Which of these two would you send off your first cataract referral to?

Further - about the "reputation" of ODs just wanting gravy all the time - don't tell me you turn down the wines-and-dines of all the pharmaceutical companies all the time. They don't even give me (an OD) the time of day - but you folks... wow.

[Bolds mine]

. . .ain't just a river in Egypt.

I won't rise to your bait about drug company dinners. I go when the drive is worth the speaker I want to hear. Does it affect my prescribing? I doubt it, which is why I probably don't get that many invites. But that is digressing.

Bribery works. That is truth. You can disparage that, ad hominem, by calling me cynical and bitter, (not that I care because firstly, this is anonymous and second, it isn't true). Members of your profession readily admit face-to-face to how well it works, having been on the receiving end of "largesse" extended to them from some of the most successful cataract surgical practices ever built.

Call it whatever you want in your denial, but you can't say it isn't true.

 

[Optogal]

Call it whatever you want in your denial, but you can't say it isn't true.

What did I deny? I don't deny your response was bitter and cynical. And you shouldn't either, because it was.

Further, if what you say is true, then why don't you just spell it out?

Go ahead - just say bribe the OD. Isn't that a whole lot faster?

And given your argument - to just use graft - implies everything you wrote in the 4th post of this thread is just sh-it.

 

[Optogal]

You can disparage that, ad hominem, by calling me cynical and bitter,

BTW. Where did your reading comprehension go?

I called your reply cynical and bitter. Is that the only way you engage in arguments? By putting words in other people's mouths?

Your reply was cynical and bitter, and this is true.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

BTW. Where did your reading comprehension go?

I called your reply cynical and bitter. Is that the only way you engage in arguments? By putting words in other people's mouths?

Your reply was cynical and bitter, and this is true.

No matter how you spin it, your reply was cynical and bitter.

Chill out. You are an ophthalmologist. You have a lot to be happy about. You can choose to be miserable about your situation . . .

And you accused me of spin.

 

[Eyefixer]

OrbitsurgMD,

There is no reason or point to argue with optometrists on this anonymous board. They know what they know. After being on this board for several years, I can confidently tell you that you won't change their minds on most issues. Just like they won't change ours. We are in the best profession available with an MD degree and that's awesome.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

OrbitsurgMD,

There is no reason or point to argue with optometrists on this anonymous board. They know what they know. After being on this board for several years, I can confidently tell you that you won't change their minds on most issues. Just like they won't change ours. We are in the best profession available with an MD degree and that's awesome.

The original question of this thread was "how do most oMDs who are starting a solo practice go about marketing to get new patients?" Not about who's superior OD vs MD/where do we all sit in the medical food chain pyramid.

An Optometrist has a good amount of experience in referring, sometimes more than an oMD; especially a sub-specialist like plastics who rely more heavily on referrals...

Some ODs may be content that the "godly oMD" sent them a referral pad in the mail. To each his own. But to say that a doctor is "bought" with a dozen donuts or a $30 dinner discussion is just plain egregious. That's called hospitality. Bought is when a local oMD I personally know starts "heavily" prescribing Azasite for pre/post catarct Px's and subsequently strikes a first class all expenses paid vacation to Vegas for a "Dry Eye Panel discussion"....Go figure

 

[KHE]

I don't get the direction of this thread.

Are there really docs out there, OD or otherwise who would actually choose to refer to someone based on whether they brought their office a box of donuts or bought the doc a plate of pasta primavera?

I have never expected any visitor to my office to buy me anything unless they request the meeting and they want to meet with me during my lunch. I have some admin time during the week. If that isn't convenient for you, lunch is fine but you're paying. I'm not canceling or rescheduling patients for meetings. I don't think that's unreasonable.

And as I said before, I don't care about CME. There are all kinds of ways to get free CME without having to drive somewhere after 10 hours of work to listen to somebody talk about restasis, or rezoom, or restore.

It's really this simple.....treat the patients I send you nicely, make a reasonable effort to send them back when you're done with them, and don't be afraid to send a few patients my way once in a while. That's about it.

 

[cme2c]

Are there really docs out there, OD or otherwise who would actually choose to refer to someone based on whether they brought their office a box of donuts or bought the doc a plate of pasta primavera?

Unfortunately I believe there are tons of docs out there like that. Just as docs will choose a medicine based on the pens they have been given. There have been very good studies on the drug side that show that. But, when you ask docs they say it doesn't affect them.

 

[Visionary]

I suspect the OP abandoned this derailed thread long ago. Such red-chested banter accomplishes nothing.

 

[Optogal]

Call it whatever you want in your denial, but you can't say it isn't true.

BTW. I never actually DENIED that buying a Happy Meal for an OD won't lead to referrals. What I challenged was the motivation behind the referral.

You seem to believe it's because of a Big Mac that ODs send their cataracts to MDs. That was your position, and what I consider a cynical one at that. My position is that maybe there are other reasons why the dinner led to referrals - like the establishment of a professional relationship?

In fact, I am going to deny what you say. Your position is false. Why? I've sent cataract referrals to surgeons in the past, and none of them have ever bought me dinner. So there - it isn't always true and you are wrong.

And I guess you concede that given your position on graft, your second post in this thread is all bunk.

 

[Optogal]

BTW. Graft takes two to tango. For every OD who sells his soul over a Starbucks, there's an ophtho who pays for it.

 

[Optogal]

You have a lot to be happy about.

And you accused me of spin.

BTW. "You have a lot to be happy about" isn't an ad hominem.

But if that's what you want, fine. I'll give it to you.

You, based on your posts, are clearly a cynical and bitter person.

And that's really too bad. As an ophthalmologist, you actually have so much to be happy about, but instead you just choose to be cynical and bitter.

And that's just too bad.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

BTW. "You have a lot to be happy about" isn't an ad hominem.

But if that's what you want, fine. I'll give it to you.

You, based on your posts, are clearly a cynical and bitter person.

And that's really too bad. As an ophthalmologist, you actually have so much to be happy about, but instead you just choose to be cynical and bitter.

And that's just too bad.

You doth protest too much.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

BTW. I never actually DENIED that buying a Happy Meal for an OD won't lead to referrals. . . .

And I guess you concede that given your position on graft, your second post in this thread is all bunk.

It is a case of both/and, not either/or. No, I concede nothing.

 

[DKofLV]

BTW. I never actually DENIED that buying a Happy Meal for an OD won't lead to referrals. What I challenged was the motivation behind the referral.

You seem to believe it's because of a Big Mac that ODs send their cataracts to MDs. That was your position, and what I consider a cynical one at that. My position is that maybe there are other reasons why the dinner led to referrals - like the establishment of a professional relationship?

In fact, I am going to deny what you say. Your position is false. Why? I've sent cataract referrals to surgeons in the past, and none of them have ever bought me dinner. So there - it isn't always true and you are wrong.

And I guess you concede that given your position on graft, your second post in this thread is all bunk.

BTW. Graft takes two to tango. For every OD who sells his soul over a Starbucks, there's an ophtho who pays for it.

BTW. "You have a lot to be happy about" isn't an ad hominem.

But if that's what you want, fine. I'll give it to you.

You, based on your posts, are clearly a cynical and bitter person.

And that's really too bad. As an ophthalmologist, you actually have so much to be happy about, but instead you just choose to be cynical and bitter.

And that's just too bad.

3 posts in a row with nobody intervening between each? In fact, 2 of the 3 are directed towards the same person...couldnt you just type one response instead of 3 and not continue to be wasting space/intellectual property?

Dont you think you could just maybe be quiet for a bit...nobody cares anymore. We arent going to convince you and you arent going to convince us. Now it's just a big game of "who can type more" and you seem to be winning that part (with or without a valid point)?

Thanks, ok now be quiet.

 

[KHE]

Unfortunately I believe there are tons of docs out there like that. Just as docs will choose a medicine based on the pens they have been given. There have been very good studies on the drug side that show that. But, when you ask docs they say it doesn't affect them.

This thread is going away from the direction the OP intended but such is life on the internet.

I think that there are issues with prescribing medications that are somewhat different than a referal relationship but I guess in a scenario where all other things are equal, I would go with the company that gives me pens, not because of the pens per se, I can get my own damn pens, but just the fact that they are least on the surface interested in supporting me and my practice.

For example, in optometry there are some contact lens companies that are very responsive in providing sample lenses and fitting sets and others much less so. While the various contact lenses accross the companies all have their own inherent pros and cons, the safety profile of them all are virtually identical.

Given that, I'm much more likely to fit patients in lenses from companies that are supportive. Is that unreasonable?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

This thread is going away from the direction the OP intended but such is life on the internet.

I think that there are issues with prescribing medications that are somewhat different than a referal relationship but I guess in a scenario where all other things are equal, I would go with the company that gives me pens, not because of the pens per se, I can get my own damn pens, but just the fact that they are least on the surface interested in supporting me and my practice.

For example, in optometry there are some contact lens companies that are very responsive in providing sample lenses and fitting sets and others much less so. While the various contact lenses accross the companies all have their own inherent pros and cons, the safety profile of them all are virtually identical.

Given that, I'm much more likely to fit patients in lenses from companies that are supportive. Is that unreasonable?

I don't think that is unreasonable. CTL companies control so much of the retail process as it is, and can dictate the viability of a dispensing practice by their stocking policies that those that are supportive ought to be preferred, same for eyeglass frame sales (and I don't do either in my practice; I refer to my local O.D. colleagues for these things.)

 

[Eyefixer]

I bet if you could make the "o" in your oMD smaller, you would .

And WTF is OMD anyway??? Ophthalmologist MD? Does not make any sense. Should CRNAs start calling anesthesiologisys AMD?

The original question of this thread was "how do most oMDs who are starting a solo practice go about marketing to get new patients?" Not about who's superior OD vs MD/where do we all sit in the medical food chain pyramid.

An Optometrist has a good amount of experience in referring, sometimes more than an oMD; especially a sub-specialist like plastics who rely more heavily on referrals...

Some ODs may be content that the "godly oMD" sent them a referral pad in the mail. To each his own. But to say that a doctor is "bought" with a dozen donuts or a $30 dinner discussion is just plain egregious. That's called hospitality. Bought is when a local oMD I personally know starts "heavily" prescribing Azasite for pre/post catarct Px's and subsequently strikes a first class all expenses paid vacation to Vegas for a "Dry Eye Panel discussion"....Go figure

 

[cme2c]

This thread is going away from the direction the OP intended but such is life on the internet.

I think that there are issues with prescribing medications that are somewhat different than a referal relationship but I guess in a scenario where all other things are equal, I would go with the company that gives me pens, not because of the pens per se, I can get my own damn pens, but just the fact that they are least on the surface interested in supporting me and my practice.

For example, in optometry there are some contact lens companies that are very responsive in providing sample lenses and fitting sets and others much less so. While the various contact lenses accross the companies all have their own inherent pros and cons, the safety profile of them all are virtually identical.

Given that, I'm much more likely to fit patients in lenses from companies that are supportive. Is that unreasonable?

Your contact lens example is not unreasonable at all. As you point out the safety profiles are similar. My medication example was just to point out that even though lots of people say they aren't influenced by even small financial benefits like pens, notepads, dinners, etc that studies may prove that they are. Obviously referral relationships are very complex. But if some pens can make a doc choose a medicine that costs 10 times as much and doesn't work any better, it's not hard to imagine that small financial benefits can also affect referral patterns. I know for me, it's hard to separate docs I refer to in some situations. Some are better surgeons, some give better TLC, etc..... So when it's hard to separate docs, it's not hard to imagine that subconsciously financial benefits can make a difference.

As for a drug company giving you pens being "interested in supporting" you and your practice. They could care less about you and your practice. They are interested in their sales. Nothing more. They have very exact data that tells them what little tricks bring them sales.

 

[KHE]

Your contact lens example is not unreasonable at all. As you point out the safety profiles are similar. My medication example was just to point out that even though lots of people say they aren't influenced by even small financial benefits like pens, notepads, dinners, etc that studies may prove that they are. Obviously referral relationships are very complex. But if some pens can make a doc choose a medicine that costs 10 times as much and doesn't work any better, it's not hard to imagine that small financial benefits can also affect referral patterns. I know for me, it's hard to separate docs I refer to in some situations. Some are better surgeons, some give better TLC, etc..... So when it's hard to separate docs, it's not hard to imagine that subconsciously financial benefits can make a difference.

As for a drug company giving you pens being "interested in supporting" you and your practice. They could care less about you and your practice. They are interested in their sales. Nothing more. They have very exact data that tells them what little tricks bring them sales.

When I say "interested in and support my practice" I'm not referring to giving me pens. I'm referring to things like this....

Say company A has a glaucoma medication that is effective but the rep rarely if ever shows up in my office. I never seem to have samples of this companies drug, and to get them requries my staff to get on the phone and essentially "beg" said company to send over a few samples and then after filling out three sheets of paper, they send two tiny bottles.

Whereas company B has a glaucoma medication that is also effective but the rep shows up frequently enough to keep the samples stocked but not so much that (s)he is a pain in the neck. And if once in a while I have an indigent patient that can't afford the medication and I phone up the rep and say "hey man, I got this patient who could really benefit from this med but they are totally indigent. Can you help them out?" and the rep says "sure thing!"

So which company do I want to "support?" Notice it has nothing to do with pens, or dinners.

Also, I think that a large problem in this discussion is that I have found that very few doctors have a real clue as to what the medications they prescribe actually cost their patients. As such, a doctor may write out for some expensive medications but I can not fathom that any doctor would knowingly prescribe a medication that costs ten times as much just because a cute rep brought in some pens. I know that I certainly wouldn't, though I try to make an effort to have at least a basic understanding of that the medications I prescribe cost.

I understand that docs can be "bought" but I'm shocked to hear that all it takes is pens and pizza for the staff. I mean seriously. If a particular company was sending me on Vegas junkets every month and letting me use their Hawaiian villa for 3 weeks a year and flying me to Hawaii on their private jet and letting me run up a huge food and drink tab at the hotel then well.....maybe I could be bought.

But pens and pizza? Please. Really? Docs really go for that?

 

[Visionary]

Also, I think that a large problem in this discussion is that I have found that very few doctors have a real clue as to what the medications they prescribe actually cost their patients. As such, a doctor may write out for some expensive medications but I can not fathom that any doctor would knowingly prescribe a medication that costs ten times as much just because a cute rep brought in some pens. I know that I certainly wouldn't, though I try to make an effort to have at least a basic understanding of that the medications I prescribe cost.

Excellent, and oft overlooked, point. A lot of my patients are seniors with fixed incomes and a lot of meds already. Most insurance drug reimbursement packages are worthless. If I can't manage patients in the short term on samples, I tend to go with generic products, if possible. For instance, ketorolac instead of Xibrom or timolol/dorzolamide instead of Combigan. There are, of course, scenarios in which generics are not available. Then, I try and get patients into drug programs through those companies that offer them, like Allergan and Alcon. Also, some drug stores, like Walgreens, have in-house drug programs that offer some meds at a reduced cost for a reasonable annual fee (~$25-30).

 

[cme2c]

Also, I think that a large problem in this discussion is that I have found that very few doctors have a real clue as to what the medications they prescribe actually cost their patients. As such, a doctor may write out for some expensive medications but I can not fathom that any doctor would knowingly prescribe a medication that costs ten times as much just because a cute rep brought in some pens. I know that I certainly wouldn't, though I try to make an effort to have at least a basic understanding of that the medications I prescribe cost.

I think more know the costs than they lead you to believe. Again they are not consciously doing it because of the pens. They don't actually say, hey they give me pens, I should prescribe X. But when you think glacuoma and you have been seeing the word Xalatan 30 times a day on notepads, pens, etc. it has a subconcious effect.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

I bet if you could make the "o" in your oMD smaller, you would .

And WTF is OMD anyway??? Ophthalmologist MD? Does not make any sense. Should CRNAs start calling anesthesiologisys AMD?

I'm sorry, let me correctly address the godly ophthalmologist as
such: omd

Drop your ego along with your nucleus please; I write oMD to save me time in writing, lest I develop CTS (carpal tunnel syndrome)

 

[Eyefixer]

I'm sorry, let me correctly address the godly ophthalmologist as
such: omd

Drop your ego along with your nucleus please; I write oMD to save me time in writing, lest I develop CTS (carpal tunnel syndrome)

I will drop my ego as soon as you drop your inferiority complex. All together now: 3-2-1, drop .

 

[Meibomian SxN]

I will drop my ego as soon as you drop your inferiority complex. All together now: 3-2-1, drop .

It's been dropped years ago. See that wasn't bad was it? So now maybe you can have a non-bribe donut on me .

 

[justadude]

Everybody take a deep breath and walk away.

OrbitsurgMD - I have thoroughly enjoyed your valuable contributions of insight to this forum. But please allow us the readers of this forum some credit for being able to decide for ourselves the merits of these posts. I hate to see you get dragged into an unnecessary street fight.

 

[cme2c]

Everybody take a deep breath and walk away.

OrbitsurgMD - I have thoroughly enjoyed your valuable contributions of insight to this forum. But please allow us the readers of this forum some credit for being able to decide for ourselves the merits of these posts. I hate to see you get dragged into an unnecessary street fight.

Umm, they had walked away until you brought up the two week old thread.

 

[Stark]

Read the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Seriously do it.

I would do this. To sum up the book - be interested in them.

Send a letter saying you would like to see their office.
Call them to set up a time.
Go to the optoms office and introduce yourself to the OD and staff.
Ask about them, their practice, their office, their patient type and flow.
Be interested and get to know them - that will make them interested in you.

Meet every single optom in town with this in mind - be interested in them, don't try to sell yourself. they will like it.

You'll be a hit unless you are socially inept (in which case you may want to place an ad in the paper). But if your socially normal it will work.

Read: "How to win Friends and Influence People"