Best Route to US Residency

[Epsilon]

Hello everyone. Although this subject has been posted about several times, I believe that a poll would be useful in understanding the overall opinion on this forum. The question is: What university would be most suitable in increasing a student's chances of obtaining a residency position in the US? Please don't vote if you have no idea.

It would be interesting to see your feedback!

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[Raigon]

Obviously it always will be the Caribbean, especially the top 4, because they were made to send US students back to America for residency. They've always had the best match list.

Next would probably be Sackler in Israel, but that's because you haven't pointed out the best possible matches from each international medical school from its country.

For example, Trinity in Ireland isn't as good as, say, the RCSI (Royal college of Surgeons in Ireland), which directs its curriculum TOWARDS the USMLE and it has the most successful match rates for American students, even rivaling the top 4 Caribbean medical schools.

University of Melbourne hasn't had much match rates or luck. However, you're going about it wrong as well. Flinders, University of Sydney, and University of Queensland are the only 3 schools you should consider if your plan is to return to American for residency. All U. Melb has is the MD and it means **** to the program directors, because MBBS is the SAME as the MD except it has a different name. What you should look at is how well the school is in training you (not for the USMLE, but as a doctor for clinical skills; that's the best thing about Aussie medical schools). They allow electives overseas and have the highest USMLE scores (but be warned, it's because the international students worked hard, not because their curriculum is directed towards the USMLE; Australia trains doctors for Australia, not America. As would each country).

So this is basically what it comes down to (and most people would generally agree):

Caribbean Big 4 > GOOD international schools like RCSI, Sackler, Flinders/UsSyd (I'd give them a tie, with RCSI nearing towards the Big 4, and Australian schools a little more towards the other end because we IMGs have to do most of the studies ourselves) > average international medical schools > bad international medical schools.

But I prefer international schools due to the exciting experience of going away to study, meeting new people, friends, cultures, and experiencing how different countries train you for medicine, etc. And going to medical schools outside the US doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. In fact, some countries think, say, Australia, have SUPERIOR training to the United States. For example, in Singapore, doctors from the US have to go additional post grad if you jumped directly from residency to attending (because they think you do not have sufficient training) while doctors trained in Australia can automatically practice there. (Might be because the commonwealth style takes a MUCH longer time). In fact, only the US seems to think its training is greater than the rest of the world, when in fact, the rest of the world thinks quite the opposite.

As for me, I care about reputation a lot, so in my opinion, I would prefer a good international medical school than a bad Caribbean. Also because in case you don't make it back, you can stay in the country to practice. And you have other options around the world which can be far more widely accepted than American MDs (which has a lot of prejudice in many countries).

 

[Epsilon]

Thanks for your perspective. Looks like SGU is becoming a more attractive option, seeing as I am set on practicing in the US.

 

[bambi]

Be very wary taking this kind of advice from a pre-med.

Ireland would probably be best, then Australia, the US seems more familiar with Ireland, that's why. The US is familiar with the Caribbean but from the looks of these boards there is more stigma. Irish schools are VERY good, education in the Caribbean is not of the same standard. If you are a good enough student, which one prepares you best for the USMLE isn't an issue.

 

[Raigon]

Ireland and Australia have equal prestige, in my opinion. International students going there also have the option of being able to stay back to complete internship, get PR or citizenship, and become a doctor or go back to North America in both Ireland and Australia. And there are many who can score high on the USMLE. In fact, from what I've heard from the internationals I've seen studying abroad is that they go abroad because USUALLY (generally, not universally) have high MCAT and low GPA (of course, there are plenty of exceptions, where both are high or both are low and even some with the other way around, but most of these cats go for the Caribbean route). Thus, they can study for the USMLE on their own and because a lot of medical schools have a pass/fail grading system, GPA doesn't really matter anymore so they can focus on acing the USMLE for decent matching stats.

Ireland has always gotten a higher match rate because the students are more dedicated to returning to the United States or Canada while internationals going to Australia may end up choosing Australia over going back. I really don't think it's because either training or quality is better but rather how similar the curriculums are to the US. Australia focuses less on the sciences so I think Ireland has better preparation. EVEN THOUGH I know it's not geared towards the USMLE, Ireland's science background may help students better.

But we can generally agree that the reputation of Ireland or Australia is better than the Caribbean (it's spelled one r and two b's; sorry, couldn't resist ). And with equal stats and equally powerful letters of recommendations, Australia or Ireland WILL have BETTER chances of getting into a residency. Because the Caribbean is usually a no-no on any list of medical schools and most will reject you JUST because you're from the Caribbean and nowhere else. And be warned, the discrimination against the Caribbean medical schools are extremely prejudiced. To put it simply, they look at you in distaste when considering you for residency.

HOWEVER, because the Caribbean is actually divided into two polar ends (the best of the Caribbean like SGU or Ross or SABA have up to 88% matching rate even into tough specialties like surgery or emergency medicine WHILE the others like Spartan, etc are not even acknowledged by the US or Canada and are not well acknowledged), they are a bit underestimated in my opinion. Caribbean schools DO train you to take and even ACE the USMLEs and they DO send you to the United States for 2 years for clinical rotations (both essential for a good match), all at the cost of reputation and a bad taste in your mouth for the rest of your life. As for what you want, it depends on your pride and whether you care what's written on a piece of paper.

All I can say is, if you have confidence in your test-taking abilities, you can study alone AND you care a lot about what school to go to, go for Australia or Ireland or England or other famous European schools. If you are horrible at taking tests or need a cram-school style curriculum to take your exams, you really MUST go to America or Canada for residency or bust, and you are willing to sacrifice your reputation for a match, then go for the Caribbean.

That's the general rule of thumb.

 

[drcanucktikka]

This is a really good topic, i wish I had this kind of information way before I started thinking about going overseas. In my opinion its Australia, especially Melbourne or Sydney, IFFFFF you are going for a prestigious specialization. Why?

Research Research Research.

My uni is insanely research based and there are plethora of opportunities to research at all levels. Research gives you the option to do PHD if you dont get a residency right away and it looks great on your applications. Majority of resident directors residents who have research experience.

I know for sure Carribeans school dont allow you many research opportunities, and im not sure about Ireland.

Of course. this is on top of having an awesome USMLE score and LORs.

If you plan on going into general medicine or primary care, then perhaps research isnt as important. But, I could be wrong about that.

I say Australia.

 

[bambi]

Ireland and Australia have equal prestige, in my opinion. International students going there also have the option of being able to stay back to complete internship, get PR or citizenship, and become a doctor or go back to North America in both Ireland and Australia. And there are many who can score high on the USMLE. In fact, from what I've heard from the internationals I've seen studying abroad is that they go abroad because USUALLY (generally, not universally) have high MCAT and low GPA (of course, there are plenty of exceptions, where both are high or both are low and even some with the other way around, but most of these cats go for the Caribbean route). Thus, they can study for the USMLE on their own and because a lot of medical schools have a pass/fail grading system, GPA doesn't really matter anymore so they can focus on acing the USMLE for decent matching stats.

Ireland has always gotten a higher match rate because the students are more dedicated to returning to the United States or Canada while internationals going to Australia may end up choosing Australia over going back. I really don't think it's because either training or quality is better but rather how similar the curriculums are to the US. Australia focuses less on the sciences so I think Ireland has better preparation. EVEN THOUGH I know it's not geared towards the USMLE, Ireland's science background may help students better.

But we can generally agree that the reputation of Ireland or Australia is better than the Caribbean (it's spelled one r and two b's; sorry, couldn't resist ). And with equal stats and equally powerful letters of recommendations, Australia or Ireland WILL have BETTER chances of getting into a residency. Because the Caribbean is usually a no-no on any list of medical schools and most will reject you JUST because you're from the Caribbean and nowhere else. And be warned, the discrimination against the Caribbean medical schools are extremely prejudiced. To put it simply, they look at you in distaste when considering you for residency.

HOWEVER, because the Caribbean is actually divided into two polar ends (the best of the Caribbean like SGU or Ross or SABA have up to 88% matching rate even into tough specialties like surgery or emergency medicine WHILE the others like Spartan, etc are not even acknowledged by the US or Canada and are not well acknowledged), they are a bit underestimated in my opinion. Caribbean schools DO train you to take and even ACE the USMLEs and they DO send you to the United States for 2 years for clinical rotations (both essential for a good match), all at the cost of reputation and a bad taste in your mouth for the rest of your life. As for what you want, it depends on your pride and whether you care what's written on a piece of paper.

All I can say is, if you have confidence in your test-taking abilities, you can study alone AND you care a lot about what school to go to, go for Australia or Ireland or England or other famous European schools. If you are horrible at taking tests or need a cram-school style curriculum to take your exams, you really MUST go to America or Canada for residency or bust, and you are willing to sacrifice your reputation for a match, then go for the Caribbean.

That's the general rule of thumb.

I know everyone goes on about the match success of SGU but most of it is family med etc, a few match into harder things but they are no where near the level of US schools.

I don't know what the requirements are for Ireland, Aus etc but if you don't have the stats to get in in the US, you wont get in in England.

 

[collosalmockery]

What about Weill Cornell Medical College in Qatar?

 

[Medmad]

What about Weill Cornell Medical College in Qatar?

No collosalmockery, you cannot include Weill Cornell Medical College - Qatar into this category. The question stem is about getting A residency in US, not a TOP residency in US. Weill Cornell Medical College - Qatar has students this year matching into places like Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, University of Michigan Ann Harbor, Columbia/Cornell Presybeterian, and Mayo Clinic. You cannot compare an IVY League medical school with the ones listed above. Weill Cornell is at a different level.

 

[phospho]

No collosalmockery, you cannot include Weill Cornell Medical College - Qatar into this category. The question stem is about getting A residency in US, not a TOP residency in US. Weill Cornell Medical College - Qatar has students this year matching into places like Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, University of Michigan Ann Harbor, Columbia/Cornell Presybeterian, and Mayo Clinic. You cannot compare an IVY League medical school with the ones listed above. Weill Cornell is at a different level.

It would be nice to include the specialties that the students matched with at each program you listed. For Columbia/Cornell Presybeterian, it was physical rehab, internal medicine, neurology, and psychiatry! LOL

For the people who are curious, here's their 2009 list that medmad seems to be quoting:

http://qatar-weill.cornell.edu/media/reports/2009/graduation2009/match.html

Only 3 people out of the whole class matched into something NOT primary care (and 2 of these 3 people matched into neurology and psychiatry!)

Also, whether that was the intention of the class as a whole or not (it would be impossible to know), 35% of the class wasn't able to match into the U.S. (i.e. 3/17). That's worse than any of the top 4 in the carib.

I hate to break it to you, but Quatar's Weill Cornell Medical College is probably a HUGE mistake to go to if you intend to go back to the U.S., and is definitely not even remotely close to being anything that resembles a U.S. "Ivy League" medical school!

 

[Medmad]

It would be nice to include the specialties that the students matched with at each program you listed. For Columbia/Cornell Presybeterian, it was physical rehab, internal medicine, neurology, and psychiatry! LOL

For the people who are curious, here's their 2009 list that medmad seems to be quoting:

http://qatar-weill.cornell.edu/media/reports/2009/graduation2009/match.html

Only 3 people out of the whole class matched into something NOT primary care (and 2 of these 3 people matched into neurology and psychiatry!)

Also, whether that was the intention of the class as a whole or not (it would be impossible to know), 35% of the class wasn't able to match into the U.S. (i.e. 3/17). That's worse than any of the top 4 in the carib.

I hate to break it to you, but Quatar's Weill Cornell Medical College is probably a HUGE mistake to go to if you intend to go back to the U.S., and is definitely not even remotely close to being anything that resembles a U.S. "Ivy League" medical school!

Hahaha!!! Not that I care about what you think, but just for the sake of the argument I will mention the following:

WCMC-Q’s average MCAT for last years entering class was a 32.8 (Compare that to any of the big four carib schools)

WCMC-Q’s average sGPA was 3.5 (Tell me one caribb school that has that average)

WCMC-Q’s class size for last year’s entering class was only 42 students (Now that’s Wayyyyyyy less than what the big 4 would accept, just goes to show that WCMC-Q is not after people’s money)

WCMC-Q’s curriculum is EXACLTY a replica of its sister institution here in New York. And on top of that, its visiting faculty comprises of some of the finest professors in the nation belonging to Cornell University, Weill Cornell Medical College, and Sackler.

WCMC-Q’s yearly tuition is exactly the same as that of the New York’s Campus. And guess what, THEY GIVE YOU INTEREST FREE LOAN!!!!!!!!

It was mentioned a million times when I went to Interview at WCMC-Q that students form WCMC-Q receive the same degree (issued by Cornell) as do their counter parts in New York. So, Yes, it is an IVY League school.

Lastly, 3/17 does not come out to be 35% . Students who decided not to go to US in 2009 were Qatari nationals. Their tuition WAS FULLY FUNDED BY THE QATARI Government. Since they chose this option on purpose, they had no option but to stay and practice in Qatar. A class of 17 students doesn’t tell you much about whether students chose to match in primary care or not. I guess it’s a good idea to combine the 2008 match result as well. So, here it is:
http://qatar-weill.cornell.edu/media/reports/2008/grad08/match.html

Having said all this, wait for the 2010 Match to come out because I know you wouldn’t believe what I will say. That should give you and people who think like you a clear picture of what WCMC-Q is and what it is made to become in a few years time. Please don’t think that I have something against Caribbean Schools, its just that it’s a disservice to WCMC-Q if you compare it with any of the Caribbean schools.

Have a good day!

 

[collosalmockery]

It would be nice to include the specialties that the students matched with at each program you listed. For Columbia/Cornell Presybeterian, it was physical rehab, internal medicine, neurology, and psychiatry! LOL

For the people who are curious, here's their 2009 list that medmad seems to be quoting:

http://qatar-weill.cornell.edu/media/reports/2009/graduation2009/match.html

Only 3 people out of the whole class matched into something NOT primary care (and 2 of these 3 people matched into neurology and psychiatry!)

Also, whether that was the intention of the class as a whole or not (it would be impossible to know), 35% of the class wasn't able to match into the U.S. (i.e. 3/17). That's worse than any of the top 4 in the carib.

I hate to break it to you, but Quatar's Weill Cornell Medical College is probably a HUGE mistake to go to if you intend to go back to the U.S., and is definitely not even remotely close to being anything that resembles a U.S. "Ivy League" medical school!

Are you insane? Fortunately the world does not run on the ideals that you believe in. Grads of WCMC-Q are considered to be graduates of an Ivy League college by CU in NY and that is evident by the degree awarded to its students. Suck that. Carib better than WCMC-Q? LOL.

 

[hussamdein]

Hahaha!!! Not that I care about what you think, but just for the sake of the argument I will mention the following:

WCMC-Q’s average MCAT for last years entering class was a 32.8 (Compare that to any of the big four carib schools)

WCMC-Q’s average sGPA was 3.5 (Tell me one caribb school that has that average)

WCMC-Q’s class size for last year’s entering class was only 42 students (Now that’s Wayyyyyyy less than what the big 4 would accept, just goes to show that WCMC-Q is not after people’s money)

WCMC-Q’s curriculum is EXACLTY a replica of its sister institution here in New York. And on top of that, its visiting faculty comprises of some of the finest professors in the nation belonging to Cornell University, Weill Cornell Medical College, and Sackler.

WCMC-Q’s yearly tuition is exactly the same as that of the New York’s Campus. And guess what, THEY GIVE YOU INTEREST FREE LOAN!!!!!!!!

It was mentioned a million times when I went to Interview at WCMC-Q that students form WCMC-Q receive the same degree (issued by Cornell) as do their counter parts in New York. So, Yes, it is an IVY League school.

Lastly, 3/17 does not come out to be 35% . Students who decided not to go to US in 2009 were Qatari nationals. Their tuition WAS FULLY FUNDED BY THE QATARI Government. Since they chose this option on purpose, they had no option but to stay and practice in Qatar. A class of 17 students doesn’t tell you much about whether students chose to match in primary care or not. I guess it’s a good idea to combine the 2008 match result as well. So, here it is:
http://qatar-weill.cornell.edu/media/reports/2008/grad08/match.html

Having said all this, wait for the 2010 Match to come out because I know you wouldn’t believe what I will say. That should give you and people who think like you a clear picture of what WCMC-Q is and what it is made to become in a few years time. Please don’t think that I have something against Caribbean Schools, its just that it’s a disservice to WCMC-Q if you compare it with any of the Caribbean schools.

Have a good day!

Phospho, your math is ridiculous.

Medmad, until I read this post, I was always under the impression that the Quatar Cornell was just another one of those overseas schools who are using a big name to get its name established. I'm very curious about their 2010 match list, and very impressed with their 2008 list.

I wouldn't be so hard on people who have no clue though (i.e. Phospho). As I mentioned, I had no idea, and I know for a fact that a lot of my colleagues also have no clue about this.

thank you for taking the time to write it.

Are you insane?

Suck that.

LOL.

It is posts like yours that have wreaked havoc on this forum, reducing it to threads like "I got a B in ochem, what do I do?". You are a future professional.

Next time you feel like spewing some garbage, please do us all a favor, and keep your mouth shut.

 

[collosalmockery]

Phospho, your math is ridiculous.

Medmad, until I read this post, I was always under the impression that the Quatar Cornell was just another one of those overseas schools who are using a big name to get its name established. I'm very curious about their 2010 match list, and very impressed with their 2008 list.

I wouldn't be so hard on people who have no clue though (i.e. Phospho). As I mentioned, I had no idea, and I know for a fact that a lot of my colleagues also have no clue about this.

thank you for taking the time to write it.



It is posts like yours that have wreaked havoc on this forum, reducing it to threads like "I got a B in ochem, what do I do?". You are a future professional.

Next time you feel like spewing some garbage, please do us all a favor, and keep your mouth shut.

I would expect same level of meticulous research and mathematical calculation from a future professional (Phospho in this case). Secondly, I did not have a B in O-Chem. Thirdly, I think I did not spew any garbage, rather I was questioning whether Phospho really know what he is saying. I could have said it in better words but I wanted to have some fun too with someone who is arrogant enough to shrug someone's qualifications just because he/she went to an overseas college.

And it is not Quatar, it is Qatar (قط&#1585 From your name (Hussam?) I would assume that you speak Arabic? If you do then you should get the name right, at least. Oh well.

 

[collosalmockery]

WCMC-Q 2010 Match list: 15 out of 17 got matched

Class 2010 Postgraduate Plans
Student Program Country Specialty
Abou-Ismail, Anas Vanderbilt University Medical Center USA Internal Medicine
Ahmad, Anas Providence Hospital USA Internal Medicine
Al-Khori, Noor Research at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill
Cornell Medical Center USA Radiology
Al-Kubaisi, Aisha Hamad Medical Corporation Qatar Family Medicine
Alkadi, Mohamad George Washington University Medical Center USA Internal Medicine
Alsaied, Amer Hamad Medical Corporation Qatar Surgery
Anwar, Naveed Methodist Hospital System USA Internal Medicine
Baljevic, Muhamed NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center USA Internal Medicine
Elshazly, Mohamed Johns Hopkins Hospital USA Internal Medicine
Guifguis, Nayera University of Louisville School of Medicine USA Obstetrics-Gynecology
Khader, Adam North Shore-Long Island Jewish Health System USA General Surgery
Periera, Nigel Drexel University College of Medicine/Hahnemann University Hospital USA Obstetrics-Gynecology
Ravishankar, Shalini Hamad Medical Corporation Qatar Surgery
Salah, Zuhair Research at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill
Cornell Medical Center USA Internal Medicine
Saleh, Qusai Cleveland Clinic Foundation USA Internal Medicine
Sarkar, Anayah University of Buffalo School of Medicine USA Pediatrics
Takeddin, Juman Hamad Medical Corporation Qatar Dermatology

 

[Winged Scapula]

Looks more like 11/17 - as you can't count "Research" as matching into a US residency, or doing training in Qatar.

WCMC-Q 2010 Match list: 15 out of 17 got matched

Class 2010 Postgraduate Plans
Student Program Country Specialty
Abou-Ismail, Anas Vanderbilt University Medical Center USA Internal Medicine
Ahmad, Anas Providence Hospital USA Internal Medicine
Al-Khori, Noor Research at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill
Cornell Medical Center USA Radiology
Al-Kubaisi, Aisha Hamad Medical Corporation Qatar Family Medicine
Alkadi, Mohamad George Washington University Medical Center USA Internal Medicine
Alsaied, Amer Hamad Medical Corporation Qatar Surgery
Anwar, Naveed Methodist Hospital System USA Internal Medicine
Baljevic, Muhamed NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center USA Internal Medicine
Elshazly, Mohamed Johns Hopkins Hospital USA Internal Medicine
Guifguis, Nayera University of Louisville School of Medicine USA Obstetrics-Gynecology
Khader, Adam North Shore-Long Island Jewish Health System USA General Surgery
Periera, Nigel Drexel University College of Medicine/Hahnemann University Hospital USA Obstetrics-Gynecology
Ravishankar, Shalini Hamad Medical Corporation Qatar Surgery
Salah, Zuhair Research at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill
Cornell Medical Center USA Internal Medicine
Saleh, Qusai Cleveland Clinic Foundation USA Internal Medicine
Sarkar, Anayah University of Buffalo School of Medicine USA Pediatrics
Takeddin, Juman Hamad Medical Corporation Qatar Dermatology

 

[collosalmockery]

yea 12 got matched in US

 

[Winged Scapula]

yea 12 got matched in US

I only count 11?

 

[collosalmockery]

I only count 11?

not sure what to make of the research position?

so 65% got matched in US. Provided that those three students who stayed at Qatar could not apply to US since they probably got a free-ride from the country, the list is not too bad since it comes to 79% match rate (11/(17-3). But does look better than the Carrib. And ooh, the grads are now Ivy league alums and well set for what they want to do with life.

 

[Winged Scapula]

not sure what to make of the research position?

These are usually done by people who either don't match or want to spend some time getting experience with a certain faculty/department to make themselves more competitive. Hardly anyone chooses to do research right out of medical school over a clinical residency.

so 65% got matched in US. Provided that those three students who stayed at Qatar could not apply to US since they probably got a free-ride from the country, the list is not too bad since it comes to 79% match rate (11/(17-3). But does look better than the Carrib. And ooh, the grads are now Ivy league alums and well set for what they want to do with life.

I agree that the list does look good. What would be most helpful would be to see if the IM matches at Ivy League schools are Categorical positions or Prelim. If they are the latter, IMHO that's not very impressive. I am always suspicious when programs don't delineate Prelim from Categorical.

 

[collosalmockery]

These are usually done by people who either don't match or want to spend some time getting experience with a certain faculty/department to make themselves more competitive. Hardly anyone chooses to do research right out of medical school over a clinical residency.



I agree that the list does look good. What would be most helpful would be to see if the IM matches at Ivy League schools are Categorical positions or Prelim. If they are the latter, IMHO that's not very impressive. I am always suspicious when programs don't delineate Prelim from Categorical.

what is the difference in categorical and prelim match?

 

[Winged Scapula]

what is the difference in categorical and prelim match?

There is a great deal of difference.

A categorical match is for a full training track that leads to Board Eligibility in a certain specialty.

A preliminary match is for 1 or 2 years, often used for specialties that require a preliminary year (in either medicine or surgery - such as Rads, Anesthesia, etc.) but perhaps even more often, used by FMGs/IMGs who fail to match into a categorical position. A preliminary medicine or surgery year is not competitive and will leave the resident without a position after 1-2 years. There is no guarantee to go on to a categorical position.

So there is a world of difference in competitiveness and many foreign programs try to hide this by just listing "IM" or "General Surgery" without specifying whether they are categorical or prelim. Thus, you should always look at match lists with a critical eye for this sort of stuff. I have no way of knowing whether this program is guilty of such, but its worth knowing about.

 

[collosalmockery]

There is a great deal of difference.

A categorical match is for a full training track that leads to Board Eligibility in a certain specialty.

A preliminary match is for 1 or 2 years, often used for specialties that require a preliminary year (in either medicine or surgery - such as Rads, Anesthesia, etc.) but perhaps even more often, used by FMGs/IMGs who fail to match into a categorical position. A preliminary medicine or surgery year is not competitive and will leave the resident without a position after 1-2 years. There is no guarantee to go on to a categorical position.

So there is a world of difference in competitiveness and many foreign programs try to hide this by just listing "IM" or "General Surgery" without specifying whether they are categorical or prelim. Thus, you should always look at match lists with a critical eye for this sort of stuff. I have no way of knowing whether this program is guilty of such, but its worth knowing about.

Thanks for clarifying that out.

 

[Jorje286]

WCMC-Q match lists so far are extremely impressive. They have two in neurosurgery at the University of Minnesota(!!!) - if that isn't damn impressive I don't know what is. Two or three who matched in anesthesiology - one of them at Cornell. And I wouldn't take matches at Cornell, Columbia, Vanderbilt or Hopkins lightly, regardless of specialty. These are all from relatively small classes. In essence, you're provided with excellent opportunity to have a great US match. I would also assume the quality of the classes would get better now, because when the college started there was reason to be suspicious. They are starting to build their reputation now and in the process attracting better students.

 

[skatertudoroga]

This is a really good topic, i wish I had this kind of information way before I started thinking about going overseas. In my opinion its Australia, especially Melbourne or Sydney, IFFFFF you are going for a prestigious specialization. Why?

Research Research Research.

My uni is insanely research based and there are plethora of opportunities to research at all levels. Research gives you the option to do PHD if you dont get a residency right away and it looks great on your applications. Majority of resident directors residents who have research experience.

I know for sure Carribeans school dont allow you many research opportunities, and im not sure about Ireland.

Of course. this is on top of having an awesome USMLE score and LORs.

If you plan on going into general medicine or primary care, then perhaps research isnt as important. But, I could be wrong about that.

I say Australia.

It is true that USyd and UMelb have an "honours" option where you do a research thesis. Same thing at many american schools. But let's say my goal is to do ER in usa. They do not care much about research, and if they did, you definitely will not get enough research done during your med school to be comparalbe to a ph.d. grad. It is important to do well on USMLE and it is important to do rotations in usa and to get strong LOR from american hospital attendings. Perhaps a reason that some people end up studying at foreign schools is not low gpa/mcat but poor communications skills and failing the interview. In that case it will be quite a challenge to do well on those acting internships in usa... And if you don't do well forget about matching. As for ph.d., I don't think you would get a stipend to do it if you stayed in australia. You might be more likely to stay on for a year as a research assistant(and get your PR) and then try to stay in Australia long-term. Keep in mind that med school debt. ER doctors in Australia make less money and it takes longer to become an ER consultant, and as opposed to local students you'd have paid $300k for school. So it may not be such a good option.

Also in response to Raigon's first post:
You are very unlikely to stay in Ireland even if you want to and doctors in Ireland make much less money and residency is longer. In Australia it is less clear, but you should choose a province that has more internship spots. Either way I think it is best to decide whether your goal is to stay or to go back to usa before you take on that $300k debt.

 

[canmeds]

Hi everyone.

The Hopkins, NYP, Vanderbilt and Cleveland clinic matches are categorical. I know these students.

Some students are doing a research year to boost their resume's for next years match. Many do not mind spending an extra year considering that the average age of graduates (not matriculants) is only 24.

A student from last year was doing research in Derm and I have been told that she matched into Derm this year.

Hope this helps.

 

[AnotherGasMan]

I'm an australian and US citizen so i am looking at the options of both countries.

With regards to University of Melbourne - the course structure is changing as of 2011. It is now a graduate course, as opposed to the old MBBS course. It will be interesting to see what this does for placing graduates into US hospitals and residency programs.

As I can apply to both countries and the cost of education in Australia is so low for me ($8k/year vs ~$45k/year) I'm wondering if the cost/benefit is worth it to study in Australia.

My intention is to work in acute care and mostly with aid organisations - MSF etc down the track. Any recommendation as to whether the $250k investment to study in the US over Australia is worth it?

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm an australian and US citizen so i am looking at the options of both countries.

With regards to University of Melbourne - the course structure is changing as of 2011. It is now a graduate course, as opposed to the old MBBS course. It will be interesting to see what this does for placing graduates into US hospitals and residency programs.

As I can apply to both countries and the cost of education in Australia is so low for me ($8k/year vs ~$45k/year) I'm wondering if the cost/benefit is worth it to study in Australia.

My intention is to work in acute care and mostly with aid organisations - MSF etc down the track. Any recommendation as to whether the $250k investment to study in the US over Australia is worth it?

A few thoughts (in random, off the top of my head, order):

1) the US is closing its doors to IMGs/FMGs; with increasing numbers of medical students educated without an increase in training positions, those training outside of the US, even US citizens, will be last on the list for residencies

2) train where you want to work; it probably doesn't make a difference if you truly want to do international relief/aid work

3) not all US medical schools are $45K per year, but it is certainly more expensive than Oz

4) the majority of medical students change their mind about what they want to do; do not base your medical education decisions on what you *think* you want to do now without having even tried multiple specialties. It is extremely common for altruistic medical students to envision themselves living in poverty in some Third World country, caring for people. Its a very romantic notion. The vast majority do not end up doing that-either because they get older and the idea of a down comforter and King sized bed in a cozy flat sounds good, because they accrue too much debt to take a low paying job, or because their interests change - you might find you love Derm, Rad Onc, psychiatry, etc.

5) the change of course structure at Melb won't affect US residency placements unless they start accepting large numbers of internationals; if they do, they may attract more applicants but the numbers will be small

I'm not sure that the investment to study in the US is worth it UNLESS you are planning a career in the US; if so, then unfortunately, the investment may be worth it (although as a dual citizen who trained in Oz, you would be seen differently than an American who went to Oz for medical school - however this doesn't change the fact that residency seats available to IMGs are getting fewer).

 

[DrJosephKim]

Getting involved in some meaningful US-based research can be a very helpful way to gain entry into the US.

 

[collosalmockery]

Hi everyone.

The Hopkins, NYP, Vanderbilt and Cleveland clinic matches are categorical. I know these students.

Some students are doing a research year to boost their resume's for next years match. Many do not mind spending an extra year considering that the average age of graduates (not matriculants) is only 24.

A student from last year was doing research in Derm and I have been told that she matched into Derm this year.

Hope this helps.

Does a 28 year old think in a more mature fashion than a 24 year old? Maybe. Maybe not. Provided the average of a US MS1 is 24, can it be assumed that if they start their residency at 28, there probably is some difference when we look at a 28 year old US resident and a 24 year old IMG resident?

 

[Handsome88]

I don't know why there are votes on the poll for the universities other than Trinity...I thought this would be a no brainer.
I got into all the universities above except the one in Israel. And I chose Trinity. The only disadvantage it has is that it is a 5yr program.

 

[caseofthemndays]

Sackler has the most solid US match list. It prepares students for US exams and pretty much everyone gets a residency, and there have been some pretty impressive ones in recent years. It is the best int'l option for students who intend to return to the US.

 

[leorl]

It's going to be different no matter who you talk to. I've met grads from each of those schools you have listed, and my program is FMG friendly (currently). The previous poster is right in saying it is going to get increasingly difficult for FMGS.

My personal experience is with Irish training. My SGU colleagues are quite capable (as are my Ross colleagues, etc). In the real world, the difference in ability is not where people have trained, but what their personalities are like and how quickly they are able to learn, and their own attitudes towards patients / work.

However, public perception is a very odd thing. When at one of our tertiary referral centers (trauma I / transplant center), one of the liver transplant attendings who is very demanding and known to be quite harsh actually began singing my praises even though I did not know him personally, just because he found out that I had done my medical education at Trinity. I was in ICU at the time and I literally could do no wrong.

I remember my preceptors when I was doing med school clerkships would tell me that supposedly our clinical skills and our "doctoring abilities" were reknowned, but I just always brushed it off until my exaggerated experience in the ICU. I have not seen this attitude towards my Caribbean counterparts.

Whether a certain institution provides USMLE / US-based curriculum does not matter as much as you think. Yes, you need to score well and a USMLE based curriculum can help ease the transition between your foreign exams and your US exams. But really, all you need is your own work ethic and practice practice practice. I only did 3 US electives, but my clinical eye and my work ethic matches and even sometimes surpasses those who did 2 years of "US training" before matching.

 

[leorl]

Does a 28 year old think in a more mature fashion than a 24 year old? Maybe. Maybe not. Provided the average of a US MS1 is 24, can it be assumed that if they start their residency at 28, there probably is some difference when we look at a 28 year old US resident and a 24 year old IMG resident?

I have found there is not. Although younger, they are just as mature as us "older" US residents. I have a couple theories.

1) Honestly, in general, US med students / residents are more immature than the rest of the world. I have walked into situations where I am astonished that things are so much like kindergarten. i have a first year resident who literally cries every time he's told he needs to improve something. I have other residents who lie, cheat, and have their minds in the gutter every free moment they have (which to them is like 24/7). This sort of behavior would NEVER fly where I trained, even though their students are younger.

Don't get me wrong, we all have our silly immature moments and europeans aren't prudes...but as much as the US goes on and on about professionalism, I really do not see it in my hospitals.

2) European students mature younger. Yeah, they all have bouts of immaturity (probably drunken immaturity, resulting in pushing a trolley through the CCU full of giggling drunk interns, to the amazement of the nurses...obviously not professional). But when it comes to work and work ethic, they can't be surpassed. One of the residents above me who I look up to has a fantastic work ability, almost never makes clinical mistakes, and she's 2 years younger than me.

point being, the difference in age makes absolutely no difference.

 

[jenkim]

No collosalmockery, you cannot include Weill Cornell Medical College - Qatar into this category. The question stem is about getting A residency in US, not a TOP residency in US. Weill Cornell Medical College - Qatar has students this year matching into places like Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, University of Michigan Ann Harbor, Columbia/Cornell Presybeterian, and Mayo Clinic. You cannot compare an IVY League medical school with the ones listed above. Weill Cornell is at a different level.

What a joke? YOu think the qatar overseas school is not IVY league? are yo insane. do you know how many foreign medical schools are affiliated with schools in america. I would put a large amount of money that of majority of those that went to qatar school did so bc they couldnt get into america.

..you fail sir...ivy league Harvard and dartmouth are ivey league, weill cornell of QATAR is not ivey league...geeez

 

[mspeedwagon]

I think this point was made before, but I wanted to re-make it. Your poll isn't great since you don't include the best school in each place. University of Queensland is likely the best in Australia (since they teach to the USMLE). Same with the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. I would substitute these two for the schools you have listed above in each country. The way this poll is set-up, it's basically either SGU or Slacker that's the best.