Best NYC Programs for Ophtho

[md2b2012]

I was wondering what the rankings are amongst ophtho programs within the greater NYC metro area. I'm considering such factors such as surgical volume, amount of teaching, fellow versus attending guidance, fellowship placement, happiness of current residents.

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[DrMassacre]

Columbia has a good rep as does NYEEI though NYEEI has been described as malignant 2/2 to it being so busy.

Edit: here's an old thread many years old...not sure how much of it is still relevant
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=223683

 

[junkemail86]

I interviewed at Cornell, NYU, and Columbia. They probably had the lowest surgical volume of the programs I applied to, but I still think that they are decent programs and I think the surgical numbers were pretty similar between them. All 3 seem to do reasonably well with fellowship matches, but none of them are top 10 programs so you aren't exactly guaranteed your first choice for plastics or retina. Cornell has probably the nicest facilities I've seen, and they also have an extremely young faculty that are easy to get along with, many of whom were recently fellows at MEEI that Dr. D'Amico brought over. But that also means they don't have many well known faculty (although Dr. D'Amico is known to be a leader in surgical retina). Columbia also used to have a huge name surgical retina for a chairman, but Dr. Chang was stepping down while I was interviewing. I don't know what has happened with that since, but I would guess that the department is in a bit of flux because of that. The facilities were decent there, and they have a very strong retina fellowship. NYU had pretty old facilities. The interview day was odd, and I didn't get a good feel for the program while I was there. I don't know of many big wigs there. I also barely interacted with the current residents on interview day. They are one of those programs that don't give you the time of day unless they think you want to go there, and probably expect some post-interview contact to rank you high. I didn't get a NYEEI interview even though I got ones at Wilmer, Bascom, MEEI, UCSF, WashU, Duke, etc.

 

[speyeder]

I interviewed at Cornell, NYU, and Columbia. They probably had the lowest surgical volume of the programs I applied to, but I still think that they are decent programs and I think the surgical numbers were pretty similar between them. All 3 seem to do reasonably well with fellowship matches, but none of them are top 10 programs so you aren't exactly guaranteed your first choice for plastics or retina. Cornell has probably the nicest facilities I've seen, and they also have an extremely young faculty that are easy to get along with, many of whom were recently fellows at MEEI that Dr. D'Amico brought over. But that also means they don't have many well known faculty (although Dr. D'Amico is known to be a leader in surgical retina). Columbia also used to have a huge name surgical retina for a chairman, but Dr. Chang was stepping down while I was interviewing. I don't know what has happened with that since, but I would guess that the department is in a bit of flux because of that. The facilities were decent there, and they have a very strong retina fellowship. NYU had pretty old facilities. The interview day was odd, and I didn't get a good feel for the program while I was there. I don't know of many big wigs there. I also barely interacted with the current residents on interview day. They are one of those programs that don't give you the time of day unless they think you want to go there, and probably expect some post-interview contact to rank you high. I didn't get a NYEEI interview even though I got ones at Wilmer, Bascom, MEEI, UCSF, WashU, Duke, etc.

I agree with junkemail's assessment. The NY programs in general have some of the lowest surgical volumes in the country. This is due to simple supply and demand. There are too many private ophthalmologists and too many residency programs in NY. In addition many if not most of the NY programs do not have a VA hospital, further diluting their surgical experience. Despite this, some programs do have a good reputation nationally.

Best surgical experience: NYEEI

Most academic: Columbia

Best fellowship placement: Columbia

Happiest residents: ? Cornell

 

[200UL]

Unless you must be in New York City (family, lifestyle), I would avoid in for ophthalmology training. The number of spots in New York City is big - still my advisor from years ago told me not to apply to any of these because of the concerns listed above (average training from every standpoint). I did interview at NYEE - one of the senior residents basically told a group of us "to go elsewhere" while we were waiting for our interviews. Shocking, but helpful. Without a doubt, the worst endorsement I ever heard on the interview trail.

In general, you will have an opportunity to train with some big names in New York - this may set you up well for fellowships. However, you should never go to a program where you feel it mandatory to go to fellowship to feel comfortable to practice even comprehensive ophthalmology. I believe many of the New York programs will make fellowship a must. Such a path is not what fellowships are designed for... Good luck.

 

[md2b2012]

what about SUNY downstate, new york medical college, North Shore LIJ? how do these programs stack up to the rest?

 

[dantt]

Regarding Columbia. I have heard 1 spot is reserved for a Columbia student and a 2nd spot is for an MD/PhD type person. If you're not one of those two, you're competing with 90 other interviewees for 1 spot.

 

[KHE]

Regarding Columbia. I have heard 1 spot is reserved for a Columbia student and a 2nd spot is for an MD/PhD type person. If you're not one of those two, you're competing with 90 other interviewees for 1 spot.

As an outsider, I'm interested in knowing something....

I see frequently on SDN forums questions like "what is the best program for this or that?"

At the end of the day, how much does something like a programs reputation matter if one is not desirous of doing a fellowship or working in academia?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that most peopel pursuing ophthalmology did so with a goal of private practice in mind. Is that not the case? If so, then to what extent does going to the "best" program matter?

 

[Eyes T]

Regarding Columbia. I have heard 1 spot is reserved for a Columbia student and a 2nd spot is for an MD/PhD type person. If you're not one of those two, you're competing with 90 other interviewees for 1 spot.

I had heard this before interviewing there as well, and there seems to be truth to the reserved spot for a columbia med student, but based on the results from the past few years, the md/phd thing isn't necessarily true...so at least that increases the odds to 90 interviewees for 2 spots. Chances doubled!

 

[Eyes T]

As an outsider, I'm interested in knowing something....

I see frequently on SDN forums questions like "what is the best program for this or that?"

At the end of the day, how much does something like a programs reputation matter if one is not desirous of doing a fellowship or working in academia?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that most peopel pursuing ophthalmology did so with a goal of private practice in mind. Is that not the case? If so, then to what extent does going to the "best" program matter?

Whether or not "most people pursuing ophthalmology" want to go into private practice (bit of a generalization and trollish comment for an "assistant moderator"), the people asking questions about reputation in certain fields are most likely interested in pursuing a subspecialty fellowship and/or an academic career, thus making them relevant questions. The OP of this thread even specifically asked about fellowship placement. This is a thread about the differences between NYC ophthalmology programs. Please try and keep posts on topic.

 

[speyeder]

Regarding Columbia. I have heard 1 spot is reserved for a Columbia student and a 2nd spot is for an MD/PhD type person. If you're not one of those two, you're competing with 90 other interviewees for 1 spot.

It is true that Columbia as a program is extremely inbred. Usually at least 1 of the 3 positions are occupied by a Columbia grad. I have seen years when all 3 spots were taken by their own med students. There may be several reasons for this, ranging from nepotism to the fact that Columbia is a top tier med school which usually produces many ophthalmology applicants.

 

[speyeder]

As an outsider, I'm interested in knowing something....

I see frequently on SDN forums questions like "what is the best program for this or that?"

At the end of the day, how much does something like a programs reputation matter if one is not desirous of doing a fellowship or working in academia?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that most peopel pursuing ophthalmology did so with a goal of private practice in mind. Is that not the case? If so, then to what extent does going to the "best" program matter?

Probably a lot of it has to do with prestige. Med students as a group are pretty competitive, and the pool that applies to ophthalmology is probably even more so. Other reasons include the perception that the top programs provide better training and that going to a top program will help when interviewing for a job.

 

[KHE]

Probably a lot of it has to do with prestige. Med students as a group are pretty competitive, and the pool that applies to ophthalmology is probably even more so. Other reasons include the perception that the top programs provide better training and that going to a top program will help when interviewing for a job.

Is that perception a reality as it pertains to private practice?

 

[speyeder]

Is that perception a reality as it pertains to private practice?

This is a difficult question for which there is no clear answer. In general I would say yes, top programs do provide better training because they have more resources, i.e. having better equipment, infrastructure, having multiple faculty members in each subspecialty, having a larger referral base from which to draw patients from, etc. And in general having a top program on your CV will help in a job search. But there are many different facets to training. For example, some top programs provide below average surgical training. So while those graduates come out very polished from a knowledge base point of view, they are less comfortable surgically. If you accept the premise that most ophthalmologists are pretty adept at diagnosing the common eye diseases, then the case can be made that one of the things that distinguishes us is how good we are at diagnosing the rarer diseases. Remember that eye care in this country is pretty tiered. Optometrists see more bread and butter diseases. More difficult cases usually get referred to private practice ophthalmologists. The extremely difficult cases get sent to academic ophthalmology centers, and the super complicated ones get referred to the top tier academic ophthalmology centers, which usually have experts in their respective fields. So by attending a top program those residents theoretically have more opportunities to see 'zebras'.

 

[MR1]

Is that perception a reality as it pertains to private practice?

It depends. From what I have seen private practices want to ensure you are a good clinician and surgeon. Most every program trains good clinicians, as you will see enough bread and butter to be adequate. The main difference is surgical training, some top programs train great and some suck. Same for lower tiered places. So it really just depends. Some top 10 places, the residents struggle to get adequate numbers and dont feel comfortable at graduation probably.

All this changes if you desire a fellowship, and most academic places want fellowship trained folks. Same thing with fellowships though, some top 10 places the fellows don't get great surgical training, but they stay in academics and continue to "train" in practice.

 

[eyehope]

Is that perception a reality as it pertains to private practice?

Although I agree that training can widely vary (especially comparing larger academic programs to community based programs), prestige probably does not matter that much when applying for a private practice job. Most groups are looking for a personable, ethical, and competent physician.

 

[Eyes T]

Not that these aren't thoughtful and insightful responses, but we are veering way off topic here from the OP's question. May I suggest starting another thread to discuss the merits of desiring to train at "top programs"?

I'm just remembering what is was like at the beginning of the application cycle as someone who very much wanted to stay in NY for residency and had no good resources to differentiate the many programs for me. It's particularly difficult when all of your advisers have an allegiance to one of the local programs, so I very much valued any outside opinions that I could find on this site.

 

[Eyes T]

what about SUNY downstate, new york medical college, North Shore LIJ? how do these programs stack up to the rest?

Out of these three, I only interviewed at NS-LIJ, so I can only speak from personal experience about this program. The interview day was actually very pleasant, although it was a little odd that it was conducted at one of their satellite sites in queens rather than out on Long Island. The majority of the interviewers were young, enthusiastic and very personable, although the residency director was a little strange and wouldn't crack a smile after I made a joke in response to his question about what my facebook page would say. The residents seemed pretty happy there, but their major complaint was all of the traveling they had to do between nassau and queens. In terms of "prestige" I wouldn't put it at the level of the major academic centers in manhattan, but they have a very strong cornea department headed by the chairman, Dr. Udell and the new affiliation with Hofstra Medical School could only make the program stronger.

From what I've heard about downstate, they have relatively strong surgical numbers for NY, a lot of autonomy (possibly too much), and good exposure to trauma as the only residency program in brooklyn, but I don't think the residents are as happy there as those at other programs. I've heard the term malignant thrown around.

 

[DrOptimist]

anyone who is familiar with cornell able to comment on their fellowship match? where do most people end up

 

[TheEyeCutter]

NYEEI for best surgical volume and pathologies seen. Residents work hard as mentioned before but get great experience. Also ranked top 10 recently in US NEWS for ophthalmology.

 

[WingsBelieve84]

NYEEI certainly provides a great clinical experience. Many people would agree that the faculty at Columbia are very well respected and definitely is a strong program in research. Columbia has a section of Manhattan in Washington Heights that also lends itself to a diverse pathology and a very good clinical experience as well. Mount Sinai is also a strong program in Manhattan. It gets a very high clinical volume, and has a mix of a patient population- time is spent at Mount Sinai, at the Bronx VA, and in Elmhurst, Queens, where there is a fantastic amount of pathology and grateful patients. They have great surgical numbers and very supportive faculty. Montefiore's program in the Bronx is an up and coming program. The Bronx has plenty of clinical pathology, and is a very needy area of medical care. The program has been pushed along strongly by a new chairman. SUNY Downstate is also known for a strong clinical volume. There is a lot of driving in Brooklyn and call tends to be intense, but they come out a strong group as well.