Best medical school in the world.

[klmnop]

St. George's and the carib schools i have mentioned may not be as good as any of the stateside schools, but they are certainly better than any foreign school based on the number of matches, the rotation in states and the USMLE exam scores.

You can look that stuff up...

I wanted to address more of these, but i'm too lazy at the moment. In the mean time, the reason for this is obvious... a far fewer percentage of european/asian med students try to match in the US and take the USMLE because they are usually citizens and have never had plans of leaving, or are foreigners who went to med school there for the purpose of living and practicing there. The Caribbean schools are full of american and canadian students who have the intention of returning to the US and Canada and thus obviously more will match, because more students will work harder on the Step 1 and USLME than in any other country.

Also, admitting the LCME "extends" to Canada, negates your whole argument that it is a "Local Body"... because if it can extend to Canada, why could it not extend south.

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[neutro]

I wanted to address more of these, but i'm too lazy at the moment. In the mean time, the reason for this is obvious... a far fewer percentage of european/asian med students try to match in the US and take the USMLE because they are usually citizens and have never had plans of leaving, or are foreigners who went to med school there for the purpose of living and practicing there. The Caribbean schools are full of american and canadian students who have the intention of returning to the US and Canada and thus obviously more will match, because more students will work harder on the Step 1 and USLME than in any other country.

Also, admitting the LCME "extends" to Canada, negates your whole argument that it is a "Local Body"... because if it can extend to Canada, why could it not extend south.

whats your point in regards to LCME? so what it includes canada - medical education isnt that different between U.S. and Canada. and whats the point in asking ME why the LCME doesnt extend to the carib schools? maybe because the body for medical education responsible elsewhere is EFMG? i guess you dont get to know that info as a pre-med.

as i said, you can look up the numbers yourself. and you are absolutely WRONG that carib school grads outnumber the rest of the true FMGs. Carib schools in total do not graduate more than 2500 students a year (combine all the schools...they dont graduate more than a 1000 if you take the top 4/5)...many FMGs take the usmle but fail compare to caribs because a) Carib schools follow american system and are geared towards usmle studying b) there is a LOT of pressure to pass the course...you wouldnt know unless you have been through it.

tru FMGs dont match back in states vs. carib grads because, carib students do 2 years of rotations in U.S. hospitals...i.e. our 3rd and 4th year is done at teaching hospital in states...

lastly the number of FMGs applying is FAR greater than 1000...india alone beats that.

 

[klmnop]

whats your point in regards to LCME? so what it includes canada - medical education isnt that different between U.S. and Canada. and whats the point in asking ME why the LCME doesnt extend to the carib schools? maybe because the body for medical education responsible elsewhere is EFMG? i guess you dont get to know that info as a pre-med.

as i said, you can look up the numbers yourself. and you are absolutely WRONG that carib school grads outnumber the rest of the true FMGs. Carib schools in total do not graduate more than 2500 students a year (combine all the schools...they dont graduate more than a 1000 if you take the top 4/5)...many FMGs take the usmle but fail compare to caribs because a) Carib schools follow american system and are geared towards usmle studying b) there is a LOT of pressure to pass the course...you wouldnt know unless you have been through it.

tru FMGs dont match back in states vs. carib grads because, carib students do 2 years of rotations in U.S. hospitals...i.e. our 3rd and 4th year is done at teaching hospital in states...

lastly the number of FMGs applying is FAR greater than 1000...india alone beats that.

my point is that you are trying to claim that Caribbean MD education is more or less equivalent to US MD education, if this is so, why does the LCME not extend to the Caribbean as it does to Canada... which is itself a foreign nation and even has its own accreditation committee, (the CMA and the AFMC) and residency matching service (CaRMS).

In fact Canadian medical education varies throughout the nation and can be very different from US medical education. For instance, Quebec students can be admitted after only 2 years of CEGEP (essentially junior college). Other schools only require 2 or 3 years of undergrad. Additionally, two schools (McMaster and Calgary) have 3-year MD programs. They even have their own licencing exam (MCCQE), so why should they be covered by the LCME and not Caribbean schools.... that is my point.

FYI, nice premed comment. being a med student doesn't make you wiser or more intelligent, it makes you older.

Next, I hoped you would have noticed exactly what I wrote "a far fewer percentage of european/asian med students try to match in the US". If you can find me evidence somewhere that there is a higher percentage of students throughout the rest of the world trying to enter US residency programs than students from the caribbean, be my guest. Nobody said they outnumbered the FMGs.... I'm sick of people reading what they want to read and not whats written.

I do agree that the Caribbean FMGs are geared toward USMLE passage, which (as I state again) is because of the large number of American and Canadian students that are trying to go back there... a far greater percentage than at most international medical schools.

 

[thedrjojo]

whats your point in regards to LCME? so what it includes canada - medical education isnt that different between U.S. and Canada. and whats the point in asking ME why the LCME doesnt extend to the carib schools? maybe because the body for medical education responsible elsewhere is EFMG? i guess you dont get to know that info as a pre-med.

as i said, you can look up the numbers yourself. and you are absolutely WRONG that carib school grads outnumber the rest of the true FMGs. Carib schools in total do not graduate more than 2500 students a year (combine all the schools...they dont graduate more than a 1000 if you take the top 4/5)...many FMGs take the usmle but fail compare to caribs because a) Carib schools follow american system and are geared towards usmle studying b) there is a LOT of pressure to pass the course...you wouldnt know unless you have been through it.

tru FMGs dont match back in states vs. carib grads because, carib students do 2 years of rotations in U.S. hospitals...i.e. our 3rd and 4th year is done at teaching hospital in states...

lastly the number of FMGs applying is FAR greater than 1000...india alone beats that.

There are many fine carib students... and many get pretty decent residency matches, or atleast match into areas they sorta want (not many caribs in the surgical subspecialties, or into academic medicine in general). Even if the match rate is like 75% (which I think is a high estimate) outa the carib schools, that is 15-20% less than all US med schools (overall i think a 93-94% match rate, probably ranging from 90% to close to 100%), and still a pretty sad state that the only place carib students can go on it practice is US/Canada and only 3 outa 4 can make it, where 19 outa 20 make it stateside...

I highlighted your "done at teaching hospitals in the states" because I have rotated at several of these "teaching hospitals" as secondard hospitals associated with my school (Newark Beth Israel, St. Michaels, JFK personally, fellow students at Hoboken, St. Barnabus, and St. Joes) and they are, by and large, subpar hospitals as far as academics go, and I believe I am not alone in this consideration, which is part of the reason they match poorly and to lower tiered residencies when you do match.

And yes, the Carib schools, atleast the big 4, can claim to be better than most schools in India, eastern europe, etc. They can not claim to be better than pretty much any British Medical School, as well as most the top schools in the Western European countries, such as France, Germany, Sweden, which none of those typically send anyone into the US for training. They also probably can't hold a candle to Japanese medical schools, and several other first world countries. Thus my comment on they shouldn't be considered in the top 200 schools in the world still holds true.

And why should LCME matter for Carib schools? Because A) the students, as you put, get clinical training in the US, so should be regulated by the US to assure they get adaquate training and B) the students almost universally attempt to train in the US, compared to other places where maybe 10-20% of students at most try to enter the US to train, so the schools should be held to the US standard...
You can't have your cake and eat it too... claiming they resemble the US system the most without actually having to adhere to LCME standards...

 

[christina30]

There are many fine carib students... and many get pretty decent residency matches, or atleast match into areas they sorta want (not many caribs in the surgical subspecialties, or into academic medicine in general). Even if the match rate is like 75% (which I think is a high estimate) outa the carib schools, that is 15-20% less than all US med schools (overall i think a 93-94% match rate, probably ranging from 90% to close to 100%), and still a pretty sad state that the only place carib students can go on it practice is US/Canada and only 3 outa 4 can make it, where 19 outa 20 make it stateside...

I highlighted your "done at teaching hospitals in the states" because I have rotated at several of these "teaching hospitals" as secondard hospitals associated with my school (Newark Beth Israel, St. Michaels, JFK personally, fellow students at Hoboken, St. Barnabus, and St. Joes) and they are, by and large, subpar hospitals as far as academics go, and I believe I am not alone in this consideration, which is part of the reason they match poorly and to lower tiered residencies when you do match.

And yes, the Carib schools, atleast the big 4, can claim to be better than most schools in India, eastern europe, etc. They can not claim to be better than pretty much any British Medical School, as well as most the top schools in the Western European countries, such as France, Germany, Sweden, which none of those typically send anyone into the US for training. They also probably can't hold a candle to Japanese medical schools, and several other first world countries. Thus my comment on they shouldn't be considered in the top 200 schools in the world still holds true.

And why should LCME matter for Carib schools? Because A) the students, as you put, get clinical training in the US, so should be regulated by the US to assure they get adaquate training and B) the students almost universally attempt to train in the US, compared to other places where maybe 10-20% of students at most try to enter the US to train, so the schools should be held to the US standard...
You can't have your cake and eat it too... claiming they resemble the US system the most without actually having to adhere to LCME standards...

Um, urban hospitals like the ones you list are probably the best places to learn medicine.

 

[Rzarecta]

Um, urban hospitals like the ones you list are probably the best places to learn medicine.

I think he isn't discussing the diversity and patient pathology, but more the emphasis on teaching by attendings and residents being significantly less than at academic centers.

 

[thedrjojo]

I think he isn't discussing the diversity and patient pathology, but more the emphasis on teaching by attendings and residents being significantly less than at academic centers.

Bingo... my main teaching hospital is University Hospital in Newark, which has essentially the idenitcal patient population as Newark Beth Israel/st michaels, except all the patients I care(d) for are charity care or medicaid... NBI and St. Mike's have more patients with insurance, but those aren't on the teaching services... at NBI, where I did 1 month of IM (we have to do 1 month at University Hospital, 1 month elsewhere, and then 1 month outpatient), the students weren't allowed to write a note in the chart, so they didn't require us to write any notes... while I followed a few patients and presented them on rounds, after that we essentially didn't do anything for the patients (the students that is)... not that I was unwilling, at University Hospital, we were essentially the interns on our patients as 3rd years, so I was writing orders, devising plans, reporting when stuff got done to the intern/senior, so not only was the quality of teaching, both on rounds/floors and didactics better at University, but the clinical experience, even though both essentially in the same neighborhood, was far superior (because it is an inferior public hospital compared to NBI being a private hospital, so the ancillary staff didn't do crap).

 

[BlondDoctor]

Actually, the best medical school is the cheapest one. Hell, bad investment these days.

Karolinska is free...

 

[countingdays]

Karolinska is free...

Your marginal income tax rate plus VAT is about 80%.
Nothing is free.