Behavoir?

Veterinary Science Graduate Certificate from UofI
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ylrebmik

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I saw 3 people on here were interested in behavoir and I was wondering more about this career. Any info?
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I am not sure what info your are interested in. Behavior is another specialty that you can pursue after you graduate with a DVM (or equivalent from some other country). It is similar to other boarded specialties you would do a general internship and then do a residency in behavior and sit the boards. It is also possible to be a general practice vet but have an interest in behavior without actually being boarded--this is likely the route I will take.
 
What's the jist of it? Cesar Milan Dog Whisperer stuff?
 
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I guess like what does it all intale? What is it like compared to other vet positions?
 
Ok. Let me try again then--you want to know what behaviorists do once they have the credentials. I have only worked with one behaviorist. She did private practice consulting with clients as well as working with a shelter doing tempermant testing on shelter dogs. The private practice people are people with animals with separation anxiety, agression, house training issues, inter animal problems (between dogs, predatory etc). At lot of the private practice stuff is common sensical--ie you have a dog that bites if you try to take a toy from it. So train the dog to relinquish objects on command and manage dog to limit the objects dog may get. Owner would also need to work on general relationship with dog basic obedience/respect. Working in the shelter was interesting there is a detailed and specifically ordered series of tests that are done to see what a dogs reaction is to various stimuli--children, stranger approaching, someone yelling, someone messing with their food dish etc. I hope that at least partially answers the question. Behaviorists basically do a lot of people training!
 
I would someday like to do research on behaviors such as cribbing and weaving in horses. I'd like to learn more about how and why horses pick up these stereotypes. I know there has been some research done (showing that horses could not learn by copying other horses, so perhaps horses cannot learn to crib from another horse.) I'd like to just get more correct information out there and try and figure out ways in which to stop the behavior (other than the usual collars, muzzles etc that aren't always kind to the animal!) I know they have tried using drugs to block endorphines but it is not practical , I think it costs something like $100/day!
 
I used to work in the behavior department of a local shelter (now I'm a vet tech there). No, you don't need a veterinary degree to be a behaviorist - my boss had a master's in animal behavior.

Knowledge of behavior can certainly make for a better veterinarian, though, as sometimes medical and behavior issues can cause the same symptoms (examples: housesoiling, overgrooming).
 
Angelo84 said:
Ok. Let me try again then--you want to know what behaviorists do once they have the credentials. I have only worked with one behaviorist. She did private practice consulting with clients as well as working with a shelter doing tempermant testing on shelter dogs. The private practice people are people with animals with separation anxiety, agression, house training issues, inter animal problems (between dogs, predatory etc). At lot of the private practice stuff is common sensical--ie you have a dog that bites if you try to take a toy from it. So train the dog to relinquish objects on command and manage dog to limit the objects dog may get. Owner would also need to work on general relationship with dog basic obedience/respect. Working in the shelter was interesting there is a detailed and specifically ordered series of tests that are done to see what a dogs reaction is to various stimuli--children, stranger approaching, someone yelling, someone messing with their food dish etc. I hope that at least partially answers the question. Behaviorists basically do a lot of people training!
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Thanks. That does answer my ?
 
JerseyisCutest said:
I personally believe that vet schools should require more classes on behavior. Many many people came to the vet where I worked (or called) asking behavior related questions. More often then not, it was easy to see the vets did not know much about behavior.......they would just prescribe something, an injection, etc., to settle the animal down instead of attacking the behavior at the root.
Or if they don't know exactly how to change a behavior, maybe refer them to a behaviorist or someone who does know instead of just pumping them full of something.
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The vets I work with are often quite open in talking with clients about behavioral issues and the techs will always put in their 2 cents as well. The problem is that appointment times are limited, and behavioral questions can take up a good chunk of time. The vets are usually great in interacting and building relationships with the clients, but oftentimes they just don't have the time to deal with all of the questions. They do the best they can, but they realize they have responsibilities towards the other clients as well.
 
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JerseyisCutest said:
If a vet doesn't have the time to work with someone, then they need to refer them to someone who does and knows about behavior then, just like I said. Not just pump them full of a sedative because they "don't have time to deal with it." I udnerstand time is limited, but that doesn't mean they should cut corners just to make more money. But then again, I'm one of those people definitely not in this for the money.

You might need a veterinary degree to TREAT behavioral DISEASES, but not fix behavioral problems such as where the owner just needs to step up and be the pack leader. Amazing how much difference something like that can make. That and formal obedience training. A LOT of problem behaviors can stem from not being trained and not having a good leader.
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No offense, but with that attitude you won't be in practice for long. You need to remember that even if you aren't in it for the money you do need to make enough to keep your practice afloat (or if you're an associate you better be making your boss money). Also two of the biggest reasons for patients leaving a practice are 1. the vet not giving their animal an injection and 2. wait time/rudeness. You can give them the best advice in the world about behavioral training, but studies have shown that clients won't think that you did anything unless you give them some type of medication.

I, at one time, was interested in pursuing behavior, but I am interested in large animal/wildlife behavior and the programs available are mostly small animal. Most of the referrals are for, as someone said earlier, aggression or separation and anxiety and training is at the root of the issue. I've heard (this is anecdotal from some vets) that a lot of behavioralists just put the animals on thyroid medication. Most vets won't give a sedative to an ill trained dog, rather they would recommend a dog trainer.
 
I never said that behavioralists couldn't make money, even though on average they make less than a regular DVM. What I said is that if you are running a practice and have appointments you need to be efficient. You can't take a ridiculously long time with one appointment to go over behavioral issues as that will back up your other appointments. Again, I don't know any vets that "pump dogs full of sedatives" during appointments or as a control for behavioral problems.
 
My point was that a dedicated behavioralist would make money, but most behavioral issues take a lot of time and vets don't have time to do that in their normal appointment schedules. Your comment was that vets are cutting corners to make money, and took the position that you weren't trying to become a vet for the money. That's great, but as I said you need finances to run a practice so a good vet has to be conscientious of time and client issues. I do agree though that they should refer out cases - though most behavior cases just need a dog trainer. You also have to understand that the vast majority of behavioral cases that come in will not be resolved no matter how much you talk to the people as they aren't willing to make the changes needed.
 
ri23 said:
Also two of the biggest reasons for patients leaving a practice are 1. the vet not giving their animal an injection and 2. wait time/rudeness. You can give them the best advice in the world about behavioral training, but studies have shown that clients won't think that you did anything unless you give them some type of medication.
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Bollocks to the studies. I will not violate my oath of do no harm just so I can charge them more for meds that may or may not even help. That attitude is precisely what is wrong what veterinary medicine (and human medicine!). That is why the holistic movement is gaining momentum, and rightly so. That is also why I have seen on numerous pet forums "I don't ask my vet about 1) nutrition and 2) behavior because they don't know jack about either." Which is sad, because neither nutrition nor behavior is exactly rocket science. Look to what the animal has evolved from and therein lies most of the answers. People (many vets included!) would rather have a quick fix with a pill than have to put in a tiny amount of effort towards behavior modification and I want to change that attitude. But to the original poster, yes, I would like to be a veterinary behaviorist as I've been a "regular" behaviorist (with a masters degree in biology) for several years now. Nutrition that makes evolutionary sense to the animal is another interest of mine.
 
I never said give them something that is bad for them, and I wasn't talking about sedating dogs. I was referring to when a pet comes in with an illness and they don't need an injection but they keep bringing up "well aren't you going to give them a shot?" I don't think it's wrong to give them a vitamin B injection. It gives them peace of mind. The same exact thing goes in human medicine.
 
yeah but sometimes... people don't listen either way about good dog food or behavoir classes when needed. My dad is convinced that Science Diet is a great dog food...even though i've showed him better brands and why s. diet is bad but he still feeds my pup that.
 
Why don't you like Science diet and what do you feel are the better brands?
 
ri23 said:
Why don't you like Science diet and what do you feel are the better brands?
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I'd imagine people will say they dislike Science diet because it uses animal meal, by products, and fillers. I personally feed my dogs Merrick but have used the Science diet prescription diets before and the results were wonderful.
 
Thanks Jersey! I think nutrition and behavior can often go hand in hand. I try to advise my behavior clients on nutrition when I can because the vast majority of people just have no clue. The reason I vastly dislike Science Diet is because they are buying and selling us vet students and I HATE IT. Their food is way overpriced and it's full of fillers and literal poisons (BHA and BHT are known endocrine disrupters). Just like you said, just cause they add extra stuff into their prescription diets is like adding pharmaceuticals into Burger King. So suddenly that's okay? There is so little regulation to back up any claims, plus they go on about protein is protein, and the source doesn't matter. Mmmkay, that's the attitude that was used in developing soy as a protein source in infant formula. However, it's only recently occurred to folks that maybe the potent phytoestrogens in soy may not be what infants can handle because we did not evolve to eat a massive amount of plant estrogens, especially at such a young age. And let's not even get into how detrimental corn fed beef is both the cattle and to the humans that eat it. Too many vets think like sheep instead of like biologists. UGH!

This is a sore point for me lately, can ya'll tell? :rolleyes:
 
Electrophile said:
Just like you said, just cause they add extra stuff into their prescription diets is like adding pharmaceuticals into Burger King. So suddenly that's okay?
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That's is why it's called a prescription diet - so a vet has to regulate what animals are on the food. So you're analogy really doesn't work there.
 
ri23 said:
That's is why it's called a prescription diet - so a vet has to regulate what animals are on the food. So you're analogy really doesn't work there.
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And to add while I can understand peoples opinions on Science Diet I think the "Burger King" argument is a silly one. What makes Burger King, and junk food in general, bad for people is that its high in fat, cholesterol, and calories. It will lead to obesity and an unhealthy heart. Science Diet on the other hand is 12.5% crude fat which is right on par with every other top food. Its also comparable in calories, protein, moisture, and fiber. The only difference is the perceived quality of ingredients as well as what Electrophile said with the use of BHT/BHA which are carcinogens.
 
bakaduin said:
And to add while I can understand peoples opinions on Science Diet I think the "Burger King" argument is a silly one. What makes Burger King, and junk food in general, bad for people is that its high in fat, cholesterol, and calories. It will lead to obesity and an unhealthy heart. Science Diet on the other hand is 12.5% crude fat which is right on par with every other top food. Its also comparable in calories, protein, moisture, and fiber. The only difference is the perceived quality of ingredients as well as what Electrophile said with the use of BHT/BHA which are carcinogens.
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The top super premium foods (i.e.-Innova EVO, Timberwolf Organics, Canidae, Merrick, Chicken Soup, etc) are absolutely no comparison to the crap in Science Diet. Let's compare Innova EVO to Science Diet, shall we? (from their various websites)

Innova EVO Large Bites: Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Natural Flavors, Egg, Apples, Tomatoes, Potassium Chloride, Carrots, Vitamins, Garlic, Cottage Cheese, Minerals, Alfalfa Sprouts, Ascorbic Acid, Dried Chicory Root, Direct Fed Microbials, Vitamin E Supplement, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract
Included in our foods are some of the following vitamins and minerals: Ascorbic Acid, Beta Carotene, Biotin, Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Choline Chloride, Cobalt Carbonate, Cobalt Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Dicalcium Pantothenate, dl-Methionine, Folic Acid, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Niacin, Potassium Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin C Supplement (Sodium Ascorbate), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement (Alpha Tocopherol), Zinc Proteinate

Science Diet Original: Chicken, Ground Whole Grain Corn, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Wheat, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Corn Gluten Meal, Brewers Rice, Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Oil, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Iodized Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), DL-Methionine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

Let's put our thinking caps on and decide which is a more appropriate diet for a carnivorous omnivore, shall we? But I hear you...most clients will balk at the price of Innova EVO, and yes, it is expensive. How about Chicken Soup? I can get Chicken Soup for the same price as Science Diet Original and here are the ingredients.

Chicken Soup Adult: Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, ocean fish meal, cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, oatmeal, millet, white rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potatoes, egg product, tomato pomace, duck, salmon, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, choline chloride, dried chicory root, kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract, L-carnitine, Enterococcus faecieum, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Saccharomyces cerevesiae fermentation solubles, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

High in fat and calories is not the only thing that make a food not a wise choice for the animal. I think the Burger King analogy works quite well because it's convenience food. Same thing with most commercial diets. It's dirt cheap for the companies because they are junky ingredients that make it and convenient for you. You get what you put in though. You have to consider the millions of years of evolution that went into the animal before we, over the evolutionary blink of an eye (a little over half a century), pump these animals full of the grain by-products from our manufacturing. C'mon kids, think like biologists and not like you're being lulled into a false sense of security by The Pet Food Industry just because you can get it uber cheap or free at your vet school like you can at mine. :rolleyes: Wolves, wild dogs, coyotes, and other canids and domestic dogs have a virtually identical digestive tract in both anatomy and physiology. Do wolves eat corn, wheat, soy, sorghum, beet pulp? Oh man, all those roving wolves and coyotes robbing Farmer Brown's fields on a daily basis and eating the phytoestrogens in the soy to put off menopause and eating the beets for fiber. Give me a break... :thumbdown:

Heck, most grass eating ruminants like cattle eat a relative minimum of these (cattle, bison, etc eat mostly grass), let alone animals like dogs who are carnivorous omnivores. No wonder we have to pump them full of antibiotics to keep feedlot cattle from keeling over on a daily basis. Anyways, I am even more sarcastic than I usually am due to a histology test tomorrow (boo....), so I'll leave it at that. But the ingredients speak for themselves and ~60 years of "research" conducted by Hills, Purina, et al. (including some I did myself as a grad student) on diets does not automatically undo millions of years of evolution. Just think about it.
 
Like I said Electrophile I can understand the argument on quality of ingredients but I just dont think the Burger King analogy is appropriate. I feed my dogs Merrick and they enjoy it but I wouldn't be opposed to feeding my dogs Science Diet. I appreciate that Merrick's first 3 ingredients are turkey, chicken, and duck as opposed to Science diet only having chicken and my dogs enjoy it.

I adopted a beagle that was 45 lbs an very obese and through Science Diet w/D she got down to a normal weight of 27. I had a Golden retriever whose urine was FULL of struvite crystals and with Science Diet S/D she was cleared of them very quickly. Both formulas worked very well!
 
Sorry, but I'm a believer in prescription diets. One of my dogs has calcium oxalate stones and they have been stopped in their tracks by IVD modified and Hills u/d. (He just likes u/d better and he is one picky eater!) Also IVD duck and potato is the only food I've found that doesn't make my other dog sick. (And yes I've tried some of the other limited ingredient brands available without a prescription.)
 
Electrophile, you apparantly did not re-read your analogy, because you were comparing the use of pharmaceuticals in food to burger king, not the convenience issue.

I think the evolutionary behavior thing can go a little too far sometimes. How often do you feed your dogs? One huge meal every day or every other day, because you know in the wild that's what they would have had. Do you change your food all the time, again in the wild they certainly wouldn't have a consistent diet.

As for what Jersey said about the higher quality foods possibly working better than the prescription diets - I sincerely doubt it. He was using a food that is a prescription diet because it does have some pharmaceuticals. A diet of chicken, duck, sweet potatos etc. would not have brought about those changes.

I would hardly call foods like Iams, Science diet etc. subpar. Those foods go through extensive testing to make sure that not only do they have enough of each of the essential requirements in them, but they are tested to make sure that the dog/cat can properly absorb these nutrient. These foods are formulated with the right amount of nutrients, at the right time in a dogs life to keep the animal healthy and happy.

By the way - I can get Natura products free through my school, but I don't want to switch from Iams - so sometimes it's not always financial.
 
JerseyisCutest said:
Ah yes, but if you didn't try the different higher quality foods, then how dyou know these changes wouldn't have happened anyway and maybe even better, right?
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Im not saying a "higher quality" food doesn't exist that is formulated to be low in magnesium, phosphorous, and protein which also lowers my dogs urine pH, but I havent found it yet. s/D does that and does it well. I couldnt ask for a better result then no crystals.
 
My Boston has skin allergies (scretches herself untill the skin bleeds) - hasn't been determined what is she allergic to. We tried trial and error - from raw venison to you name it-she had it. Nothing helped. Tried couple of high end brands - to no avail. Went on Z/D Science Diet and allergies got under control. She's not free of them but no more skin lesions. That having said, I met people who tried different food and finally cheap supermarket brands helped with allergies! Nutrition is a complex area. I still believe in high end food, it's just that sometimes it's not as simple. Longevity is probably a right combination of good genetics, luck and then everything else :)
This is a valid topic - I don't know why we tend to take it personally if we don't agree:)
 
dreamster said:
This is a valid topic - I don't know why we tend to take it personally if we don't agree:)
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Your certainly right and nothing is better than a good healthy debate to work the mind!
 
dreamster said:
This is a valid topic - I don't know why we tend to take it personally if we don't agree:)
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It's Rule #47 of The Internets.

Any discussion of feeding dogs will involve emotional rhetoric, mentions of preservatives causing diseases (usually cancer), and claims that veterinarians don't know anything about nutrition.

Then it starts to go downhill from there.
 
JerseyisCutest said:
I get my information from a nutrition specialist with dogS (not dog, and large breeds too) that live to be over 20 yrs old.
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Whoa, hold on. Large breed dogs living to be over 20 years old? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you were trying to say or maybe my knowledge is way off (I don't think it is), but this number seems incredibly inflated. I was under the impression that 13 years old was a pretty old age for large breeds. I'm not sure what the typical life expectancy is for smaller breeds.

Are you honestly claiming that you know someone with several large breed dogs who lived past 20 yo? Seems a bit like hyperbole to me.
 
I had not one but TWO glorious long posts in response to various topics, but alas, Internet Explorer at the vet school computer lab decided to eat both of them. :mad::mad::mad: On the subject of long lived dogs on a non-kibble diet, behold Jerry, a 27 year old mix from Australia who eats kangaroo, rabbit, emu, and table scraps.

http://www.australianfauna.com/news/outbackmongrel.php

My 6 month old (well, will be in a few days) Malinois puppy is minimally vaccinated and on a whole prey model raw diet of chicken and eggs, turkey, beef, pork, lamb, goat, bison, venison, duck, rabbit, and several kinds of fish. Wonder how long he'll go. Maybe by 20 years old, he'll calm down some! :D
 
Electrophile said:
I had not one but TWO glorious long posts in response to various topics, but alas, Internet Explorer at the vet school computer lab decided to eat both of them. :mad::mad::mad: On the subject of long lived dogs on a non-kibble diet, behold Jerry, a 27 year old mix from Australia who eats kangaroo, rabbit, emu, and table scraps.

http://www.australianfauna.com/news/outbackmongrel.php
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Ok, but I'm assuming these are outliers, no? Are there more than anecdotes to support the idea that dogs can normally live that long? Just because there have been people who have lived to 115 doesn't mean that we all can if we just do the "right" things.
 
VAgirl said:
Ok, but I'm assuming these are outliers, no? Are there more than anecdotes to support the idea that dogs can normally live that long? Just because there have been people who have lived to 115 doesn't mean that we all can if we just do the "right" things.
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Yes, these are outliers. My research indicates (checked google, some books, experience) that most large dogs have an average lifespan of 13 years or so. 27 (and the oldest on record at 29) are exceptions. If he does have 20 year old dogs, thats great, but it sounds like an exaggeration or a special case.
 
VAgirl said:
Just because there have been people who have lived to 115 doesn't mean that we all can if we just do the "right" things.
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Well, it's kind of like Pascal's wager on belief in God, if you are familiar with that...it's more "profitable" to believe and lose than not believe and really lose. Still...I have yet to hear anyone say that Science Diet is an evolutionarily appropriate food... *crickets chirping*
 
Electrophile said:
Well, it's kind of like Pascal's wager on belief in God, if you are familiar with that...it's more "profitable" to believe and lose than not believe and really lose. Still...I have yet to hear anyone say that Science Diet is an evolutionarily appropriate food... *crickets chirping*
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Right. In fact, my point wasn't even addressing the main topic. I just think it's important to keep things scientific. There's no reason to go throwing around sensational numbers. This is especially true if there is actual merit to the better nutrition = better health argument. If the argument is sound, hyperbole will only make it appear less credible.

For me, the jury is still out on how much of a role nutrition plays and in what ways it affects health. In fact, I was just reading an article today discussing how an eight-year study in post-menopausal women did not demonstrate any improved health effects of a low fat, high fiber diet. In this study, one group was given eating restrictions and the other was allowed to eat whatever they wanted. There were no statistically significant differences in weight gain/loss, incidences of cancers including colorecal and breast, or heart disease from one group to the other. I read another article several days ago discussing how such "common knowledge" nutritional ideas as low fat foods are better for people came about because of a "jumping on the bandwagon" scenario, not because the claim was backed up by good research. So I just take it all with a grain of salt and try to learn more.
 
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