Back to masks for us

[InFreudWeTrust]

The masks never went away. Now, we have to wear N95's again. I understand, I just have difficulty breathing in them. Giving presentations is the worst.

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[drducky.]

The masks never went away. Now, we have to wear N95's again. I understand, I just have difficulty breathing in them. Giving presentations is the worst.

Same. I feel like my voice is muffled when I speak in them.

 

[jhmmd]

I'll wade into this conversation with this question: what if new variants (such as lambda) truly evade immunity conferred by the current vaccines? It'll be impossible to lock down the US like it was March-June 2020. Things already look bleak with delta breaking through in vacc'ed individuals. I'm running out of arguments to convince my r*publican family members to get a vaccine.

And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't more than a little annoyed that my small-group discussions with 100% vaccinated classmates have to be masked, but then we're all able to go get drinks afterwards with no precautions. Where is the logic in that?? How much of this is simply performative?

At what point does this turn into essentially a "bad flu?" e.g., get your yearly shot if you want, it will be variably protective against severe illness, if you don't want it, c'est la vie.

Probably at the point at which people stop dying from COVID

 

[jhmmd]

Are you presuming that people don't die from the flu?

I think that was @viralhiker's assumption, not mine

 

[viralhiker]

I think that was @viralhiker's assumption, not mine

I’m not sure how you made that conclusion from my post.

Probably at the point at which people stop dying from COVID

I think there is ample evidence to suggest that COVID will become endemic, like the flu, and never stop killing people.

 

[jhmmd]

I’m not sure how you made that conclusion from my post.

I think there is ample evidence to suggest that COVID will become endemic, like the flu, and never stop killing people.

We are in for another round of a bad winter flu season, at least

 

[jhmmd]

It sounds like you think people don't die from the common flu.

No that's not what I said
Immunocompromised and elderly people of course are at high risk for dying from the flu

 

[Bobblehead]

We had a recent breakthrough symptomatic covid infection in someone at work who was fully vaccinated. As best we can tell that person didn't spread it to anyone else despite working in a shared space because there is still universal masking required in the hospital and he recognized the symptoms, took himself out of work and got tested right away. By this point in time I've mostly stopped trying to engage people who wonder why masks are needed or think they don't work or are too inconvenient or ask for whatever data it is that might possibly convince them to wear masks. I'm sure I'll see some of them in the unit eventually.

 

[allantois]

Data out of Israel suggests that vaccines are only 50% effective in preventing delta. Hopefully they still work to reduce the severity of symptoms.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't know anyone who enjoys wearing them. Do your kids? Especially those who wear glasses constantly fogging up and having teachers scold them for not covering their nose? Or those who participate in activities such as sports, choir, theater? My kid quit some activities because of masks. So, yeah, suffer.

Are you serious? My 5 and 6 year olds have been wearing masks essentially the whole pandemic with zero complaints and are going to wear them during school no problem (it’s required here when the kids are inside except during lunch).

If my 5 and 6 year old can do it, so can you.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I question this. My state is close to 50/50 vaccinated and unvaccinated. None of the larger hospitals in the state are seeing what you're seeing. My hospital system is running at 95% of inpatient COVID patients unvaccinated.

This is what we are seeing too. Probably closer to 99%.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

My kids “suffer” when they don’t get candy. End. Of. The. World.

Made me think of this thread…

 

[GreenDuck12]

Honest question: Is there solid research proving most of the masks we wear are actually effective, especially among the young in school who have to suffer wearing them in class? During the first months of this pandemic, even the CDC's website said there wasn't any. I haven't bother looking in this lately because, honestly, I have covid burnout. (FTR, I'm vaccinated and don't belong to either stupid political party.)

Funny thing about science and research: new information comes to light, recommendations change, and we adapt. I encourage you to get used to the idea that our understanding of something will evolve and our recommendations change or you will find a career in medicine to be quite miserable. A non-insignificant portion of your preclinical years will involve learning treatments and protocols that were used but are no longer due to new information.

Also yes, masks are effective, look up mask wearing in NEJM and you will find quite a few articles published on the subject over the past 12+ months.

 

[Fano]

Are you serious? My 5 and 6 year olds have been wearing masks essentially the whole pandemic with zero complaints and are going to wear them during school no problem (it’s required here when the kids are inside except during lunch).

If my 5 and 6 year old can do it, so can you.

I know of many parents who've struggled with their kids wearing masks. But since your kids had no problems somehow these cases magically never existed? WTF? Masking has become such a religion with many people where asking for data and raising of issues results in unhinged reactions. "My kids had no problems, therefore no kids should have any problems." and "I, a grown adult (presumably), can run and exercise, so everyone should enjoy singing & dancing with masks." lol this is insane!

 

[GreenDuck12]

I don't know anyone who enjoys wearing them. Do your kids? Especially those who wear glasses constantly fogging up and having teachers scold them for not covering their nose? Or those who participate in activities such as sports, choir, theater? My kid quit some activities because of masks. So, yeah, suffer.

FWIW, I’m a former teacher and volunteered in after school programs during the last school year language based theater and music. Yeah wearing a mask can be annoying but honestly I never had any trouble with getting kids in my groups to keep them on. A gentle reminder usually did the trick, similar to putting cellphones away, etc (we really don’t do much scolding as educators - we aren’t paid nearly enough to do that - that’s your job as the parent). I don’t think I lost a student to the mask requirement - I did have a few who decided to do other things though all of those activities also required masks. So

 

[GreenDuck12]

I know of many parents who've struggled with their kids wearing masks. But since your kids had no problems somehow these cases magically never existed? WTF? Masking has become such a religion with many people where asking for data and raising of issues results in unhinged reactions. "My kids had no problems, therefore no kids should have any problems." and "I, a grown adult (presumably), can run and exercise, so everyone should enjoy singing & dancing with masks." lol this is insane!

Maybe you should go volunteer in your child’s class to see what it is like?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

To be completely fair, 5-6 year olds will do anything you tell them and won't have cognitively developed enough to reasonably question anything. I don't necessarily disagree with your point though.

Lol what? Do you have kids that age? They question everything.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I know of many parents who've struggled with their kids wearing masks. But since your kids had no problems somehow these cases magically never existed? WTF? Masking has become such a religion with many people where asking for data and raising of issues results in unhinged reactions. "My kids had no problems, therefore no kids should have any problems." and "I, a grown adult (presumably), can run and exercise, so everyone should enjoy singing & dancing with masks." lol this is insane!

That’s not what I said. Maybe lay off the logical fallacies. And the data suggests masks are effective. Not sure what you’re on about there.

 

[Mass Effect]

If the odds of severe disease are reduced, it makes no sense to force vaccinated people to mask up.

I only do it in medical settings regardless of mask mandates purely because i feel safe

Hate to tell you, but it's not just about you. There are a lot of people who can't get vaccinated and those individuals are vulnerable to you and the rest of us who are vaccinated but refuse to wear masks.

 

[Mass Effect]

I don't know anyone who enjoys wearing them. Do your kids? Especially those who wear glasses constantly fogging up and having teachers scold them for not covering their nose? Or those who participate in activities such as sports, choir, theater? My kid quit some activities because of masks. So, yeah, suffer.

Wait til you get to clinicals. You'll no longer use the word "suffer" so non-chalantly. #firstworldproblems

 

[Mass Effect]

Basically i understand and support why the mask mandates are in place due to the delta/other covid variants

But you just said you didn't.

"If the odds of severe disease are reduced, it makes no sense to force vaccinated people to mask up."

So why are you trolling?

 

[viralhiker]

Hate to tell you, but it's not just about you. There are a lot of people who can't get vaccinated and those individuals are vulnerable to you and the rest of us who are vaccinated but refuse to wear masks.

Virtual signaling aside, when does it stop? I’m being honest here, I haven’t seen a good enough answer.

Expecting an entire population of people to wear masks to protect what, <1% of the general population (those who want to be vacc’ed but are unable for some reason) from a disease with a relatively high likelihood of survival forever* is simply not feasible.

 

[Mass Effect]

Virtual signaling aside, when does it stop? I’m being honest here, I haven’t seen a good enough answer.

Expecting an entire population of people to wear masks to protect what, <1% of the general population (those who want to be vacc’ed but are unable for some reason) from a disease with a relatively high likelihood of survival forever* is simply not feasible.

Perhaps when the infection rate drops? When hospitals aren't overwhelmed? When we have better treatments? When we understand what the hell happens to the survivors? It isn't "Virtual signaling" (sic) for someone who treats long-haul Covid symptoms to chime in to say sometimes we do things for the good of society, not for one individual person.

 

[viralhiker]

Perhaps when the infection rate drops? When hospitals aren't overwhelmed? When we have better treatments? When we understand what the hell happens to the survivors? It isn't "Virtual signaling" (sic) for someone who treats long-haul Covid symptoms to chime in to say sometimes we do things for the good of society, not for one individual person.

Infection rate and resource utilization is pretty damn low in my county and all those surrounding.

It feels like virtue signaling when everyone I congregate with has to wear masks in one classroom (unless we’re eating, drinking, etc), but can all socialize at a bar after class maskless.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Infection rate and resource utilization is pretty damn low in my county and all those surrounding.

the challenge is what happens in another county may impact your county, get it? Where my program is we have a high rate of vaccinations and low cases, yet we serve others from surrounding areas with high rates of infection and low rates of vaccination. Therefore the risk of spread is quite high. My guess is that my program will require masks for students and employees for at least another year if not longer. Simply put the risk isn’t worth it for such a small inconvenience.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If the odds of severe disease are reduced, it makes no sense to force vaccinated people to mask up.

I only do it in medical settings regardless of mask mandates purely because i feel safe

Then you’re being selfish and disregarding the safety of people around you.

 

[sloop]

Hate to tell you, but it's not just about you. There are a lot of people who can't get vaccinated and those individuals are vulnerable to you and the rest of us who are vaccinated but refuse to wear masks.

Are there really a lot of people who actually can’t get vaccinated? As of right now it seems like it’s mainly young kids, people with rare allergies and . . . who else, exactly?

Everyone is making this out to be a clear-cut public health issue but in reality this issue raises moral questions about which reasonable people can disagree.

By and large, the vaccines effectively prevent hospitalization and death. They are not perfect, but they are quite effective. The question then is who are we doing this all to protect? I think that there’s a very legitimate argument that those unvaccinated by choice assume the risk. Regarding children, the mortality from COVID is less than it was from the flu, and we never had mask mandates to prevent kids from getting the flu. At some point, we have to get to the point where vaccination is available enough and protective enough where we decide that mask mandates are no longer justified. When we stop masking, that will probably result in marginally increased transmission and, as a result, deaths. That is sad, but this is a calculation people make every day with regard to other things. We could mandate using public transport and probably reduce traffic accidents, but we don’t. Individual freedom is actually worth something, even in terms of possible deaths. Doctors often have trouble with this reality because of the nature of our jobs, but it is the truth.

I’m not saying that we should definitely end the mask mandates, but I definitely think that people who pretend that nobody could reasonably believe that we should are being myopic.

 

[Lawpy]

Hate to tell you, but it's not just about you. There are a lot of people who can't get vaccinated and those individuals are vulnerable to you and the rest of us who are vaccinated but refuse to wear masks.

Those people are always going to be there though. Covid is very likely endemic and will never go away. That doesn't mean mask mandates are here to stay indefinitely

 

[Lawpy]

But you just said you didn't.

"If the odds of severe disease are reduced, it makes no sense to force vaccinated people to mask up."

So why are you trolling?

I support mask mandates in context of medical settings to be on topic of this thread. I don't support mask mandates in general

 

[Lawpy]

Then you’re being selfish and disregarding the safety of people around you.

Do you think the % of people who can't be vaccinated even if they want to is 30%? I'm not talking kids younger than 12. I'm talking adults capable of making decisions but deciding not to get vaccinated. Those are the people to actually worry about. A lot of immunocompromised people do get vaccinated and the danger to them are unvaccinated people, not vaccinated people who don't want to wear masks

 

[Lawpy]

Perhaps when the infection rate drops? When hospitals aren't overwhelmed? When we have better treatments? When we understand what the hell happens to the survivors? It isn't "Virtual signaling" (sic) for someone who treats long-haul Covid symptoms to chime in to say sometimes we do things for the good of society, not for one individual person.

You realize hospitals are overwhelmed largely because of unvaccinated people, many of them who don't have underlying conditions that'd prevent them from getting vaccinated right?

 

[Mass Effect]

Infection rate and resource utilization is pretty damn low in my county and all those surrounding.

It feels like virtue signaling when everyone I congregate with has to wear masks in one classroom (unless we’re eating, drinking, etc), but can all socialize at a bar after class maskless.

What year are you? I don't think it's out of line for schools to want to avoid an outbreak. They can't tell you not to go to the bar, but they can try to prevent you from causing an outbreak on campus.

 

[Lawpy]

the challenge is what happens in another county may impact your county, get it? Where my program is we have a high rate of vaccinations and low cases, yet we serve others from surrounding areas with high rates of infection and low rates of vaccination. Therefore the risk of spread is quite high. My guess is that my program will require masks for students and employees for at least another year if not longer. Simply put the risk isn’t worth it for such a small inconvenience.

Then the problem lies with inadequate vaccine advocacy in low vaccination areas. Vaccines are literally everywhere. There's a major problem here if a significant fraction of population today still decides not to get vaccinated even when they can.

 

[Lawpy]

What year are you? I don't think it's out of line for schools to want to avoid an outbreak. They can't tell you not to go to the bar, but they can try to prevent you from causing an outbreak on campus.

This implies masks are more effective than vaccines in preventing spread of infections.

 

[Mass Effect]

Are there really a lot of people who actually can’t get vaccinated? As of right now it seems like it’s mainly young kids, people with rare allergies and . . . who else, exactly?

Everyone is making this out to be a clear-cut public health issue but in reality this issue raises moral questions about which reasonable people can disagree.

By and large, the vaccines effectively prevent hospitalization and death. They are not perfect, but they are quite effective. The question then is who are we doing this all to protect? I think that there’s a very legitimate argument that those unvaccinated by choice assume the risk. Regarding children, the mortality from COVID is less than it was from the flu, and we never had mask mandates to prevent kids from getting the flu. At some point, we have to get to the point where vaccination is available enough and protective enough where we decide that mask mandates are no longer justified. When we stop masking, that will probably result in marginally increased transmission and, as a result, deaths. That is sad, but this is a calculation people make every day with regard to other things. We could mandate using public transport and probably reduce traffic accidents, but we don’t. Individual freedom is actually worth something, even in terms of possible deaths. Doctors often have trouble with this reality because of the nature of our jobs, but it is the truth.

I’m not saying that we should definitely end the mask mandates, but I definitely think that people who pretend that nobody could reasonably believe that we should are being myopic.

I don't know what the number is, but yes, there are a lot of individuals who cannot get vaccinated due to immune system issues. I have a handful of patients (in psych) whose doctors have encouraged them not to get it due to immunosuppresants, chemo, and pre or post-transplant in the near future.

Everyone needs to stop just thinking about mortality. Yes mortality matters, but the truth is that even though a small percentage will die, it's the morbidity that going to change your life. I've seen perfectly healthy young adults go from working as attorneys, bartenders, retail, and even doctors to being on disability one year after infection. I have a post-Covid clinic. That's right, an entire clinic populated by only people who've recovered from the initial Covid infection, now dealing with neurologic and psychiatric symptoms - memory problems, irritability, brain "fog", significant fatigue, sleep problems, not to mention gait problems, pain, SOB, arthritis. Look at the literature online. This is no joke, but "personal freedom" as a reason to be careless and irresponsible as cases rise in many states is.

 

[Mass Effect]

Do you think the % of people who can't be vaccinated even if they want to is 30%? I'm not talking kids younger than 12. I'm talking adults capable of making decisions but deciding not to get vaccinated. Those are the people to actually worry about. A lot of immunocompromised people do get vaccinated and the danger to them are unvaccinated people, not vaccinated people who don't want to wear masks

The danger to them is BOTH.

This implies masks are more effective than vaccines in preventing spread of infections.

It in no way implies masks are more effective than vaccines. What are you even talking about?

 

[Mass Effect]

I don't believe an outbreak is realistic among a population that is 99%+ vaccinated, as most of my classmates are.

Dude, really?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/05/provincetown-covid-outbreak/

 

[Lawpy]

The danger to them is BOTH.



It in no way implies masks are more effective than vaccines. What are you even talking about?

No the danger is directly from unvaccinated people unless you're arguing vaccinated people can transmit the virus

Read that post again. If masks are mandated to prevent outbreaks even in areas with near 100% vaccination rate, it means masks are better than vaccines in preventing the spread of infections.

 

[Lawpy]

Dude, really?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/05/provincetown-covid-outbreak/

CDC’s Covid-19 Mask Guidance Clouded by Flawed Data

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is fighting Covid-19 without a full arsenal of data that some public-health experts said it would need to persuade more people to take steps to contain the pandemic.

www.wsj.com

 

[Mass Effect]

No the danger is directly from unvaccinated people unless you're arguing vaccinated people can transmit the virus

I am 100% saying that vaccinated people can transmit the virus. 100%.

Read that post again. If masks are mandated to prevent outbreaks even in areas with near 100% vaccination rate, it means masks are better than vaccines in preventing the spread of infections.

Dude, this is reading 101. Saying that masks in the vaccinated reduce risk is NOT saying that masks work better than vaccines. Not even a little tiny bit.

 

[Mass Effect]

CDC’s Covid-19 Mask Guidance Clouded by Flawed Data

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is fighting Covid-19 without a full arsenal of data that some public-health experts said it would need to persuade more people to take steps to contain the pandemic.

www.wsj.com

Yes, I read that colorful commentary the first time you posted it. Changes nothing at all. It doesn't say the CDC is wrong. It says we don't have enough information for some of the things the CDC said. Which by the way, many other experts disagree with.

 

[Lawpy]

I am 100% saying that vaccinated people can transmit the virus. 100%.



Dude, this is reading 101. Saying that masks in the vaccinated reduce risk is NOT saying that masks work better than vaccines. Not even a little tiny bit.

And that's where we disagree

Come on man. Mask mandates mean masks prevent the spread of infections better than vaccines because it makes no sense otherwise to implement the mandates in the first place.

Clearly as per your own statement, vaccinated people can transmit the virus, and masks are there to prevent outbreaks. Which means masks are doing a better job preventing outbreaks than vaccines.

 

[Lawpy]

Yes, I read that colorful commentary the first time you posted it. Changes nothing at all. It doesn't say the CDC is wrong. It says we don't have enough information for some of the things the CDC said. Which by the way, many other experts disagree with.

Some scientists say that the Provincetown study isn’t reliable enough to be the primary driver of a public health policy change. The data is too recent to be independently reviewed by outside experts, and it is too small of a sample and the circumstances of the outbreak are too unique for it to be applied to other parts of the country.

“They’re making these decisions on the basis of extremely weak and unreliable data, and at the same time not doing the necessary work to reduce uncertainty among the population,” said Vinay Prasad, a physician and professor in the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of California, San Francisco. “When there isn’t a lot of study data, the CDC should be conducting these studies.”

 

[sloop]

I don't know what the number is [. . .] This is no joke, but "personal freedom" as a reason to be careless and irresponsible as cases rise in many states is.

And, at this point, it is clear that your point of view is fundamentally more related to collectivist political leanings than it is to science or public health. That is fine, by the way, but I think we need to be honest about it.

Also, my experience has been that the severe sequelae of COVID follow severe infection, especially in those who have been in the ICU or on a ventilator, not mild or asymptomatic infections. So, yes, I do think that the fact that the vaccines are fairly effective at preventing severe infections and hospitalization is relevant.

Even if we accept that there is significant post-infection morbidity from COVID in those who have been vaccinated, what exactly are we supposed to do about that? Continue masking indefinitely? At this point, it’s pretty clear that COVID is not going away and some degree of morbidity and mortality will just be an inevitable part of post-pandemic life. When exactly do you propose that we should decide to stop masking?

 

[Mass Effect]

And that's where we disagree

Come on man. Mask mandates mean masks prevent the spread of infections better than vaccines because it makes no sense otherwise to implement the mandates in the first place.

Clearly as per your own statement, vaccinated people can transmit the virus, and masks are there to prevent outbreaks. Which means masks are doing a better job preventing outbreaks than vaccines.

You have no idea what you're talking about. No one has said masks are better than vaccines. But the combination of masks AND vaccines are better than vaccines by themselves or masks by themselves. I can't believe I have to explain such a simple concept.

 

[Mass Effect]

Some scientists say that the Provincetown study isn’t reliable enough to be the primary driver of a public health policy change. The data is too recent to be independently reviewed by outside experts, and it is too small of a sample and the circumstances of the outbreak are too unique for it to be applied to other parts of the country.

And many scientists say otherwise. There's also the detail of the breakthrough infections we already know about, the ones who are documented in other states. The only thing different about Provincetown is the sheer number of the outbreak.

“They’re making these decisions on the basis of extremely weak and unreliable data, and at the same time not doing the necessary work to reduce uncertainty among the population,” said Vinay Prasad, a physician and professor in the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of California, San Francisco. “When there isn’t a lot of study data, the CDC should be conducting these studies.”

And? A professor at UCSF disagrees with the CDC. So what?

 

[Mass Effect]

And, at this point, it is clear that your point of view is fundamentally more related to collectivist political leanings than it is to science or public health. That is fine, by the way, but I think we need to be honest about it.

Was I trying to be deceptive about political leanings? When one political party has firmly planted its feet in the well of delusions, conspiracy theories, and paranoia, it's fair to say the political leanings of the rest of us should be obvious. And make no mistake, my opinion is based on science and public health, not politics. To suggest otherwise just because you don't agree with my opinion is dismissive and ridiculous.

Also, my experience has been that the severe sequelae of COVID follow severe infection, especially in those who have been in the ICU or on a ventilator, not mild or asymptomatic infections. So, yes, I do think that the fact that the vaccines are fairly effective at preventing severe infections and hospitalization is relevant

Your experience is not universal. There are many patients who have neuropsychiatric symptoms on medical leave at this very moment after infection without hospitalization.

Studies show long-haul COVID-19 afflicts 1 in 4 COVID-19 patients, regardless of severity

<p>People who catch COVID-19 have at least a one in four chance of developing long-haul COVID with symptoms lasting months, even if they have very mild cases, are young and are in excellent health, new studies show.</p>

health.ucdavis.edu

Even if we accept that there is significant post-infection morbidity from COVID in those who have been vaccinated, what exactly are we supposed to do about that? Continue masking indefinitely? At this point, it’s pretty clear that COVID is not going away and some degree of morbidity and mortality will just be an inevitable part of post-pandemic life. When exactly do you propose that we should decide to stop masking?

Not now while it's still raging and there is no optimal treatment. Eventually, enough people will become infected and/or lose loved ones that the vast majority will get vaccinated. I mean, do you really think 10 years from now, ICUs will be completely filled with Covid patients? Of course not.

 

[FutureInternist]

Virtual signaling aside, when does it stop? I’m being honest here, I haven’t seen a good enough answer.

Expecting an entire population of people to wear masks to protect what, <1% of the general population (those who want to be vacc’ed but are unable for some reason) from a disease with a relatively high likelihood of survival forever* is simply not feasible.

Just think of it as wearing a shirt and pants… except its covering our ugly faces.

What exactly is the big deal?

You always buckle up when driving, and if it comes to it ( as it does in certain Asian countries) we should all just mask up

As for survival, you have to be trolling or just ignorant… it is NOT the deaths from the virus itself (although 600,000 seems quite enough), but the added deaths due to no beds for MIs, CVAs, car wrecks, lack of EMTs, nurses and doctors.

Its the traffic jam AFTER the initial car wreck that causes more wrecks.

 

[Lawpy]

You have no idea what you're talking about. No one has said masks are better than vaccines. But the combination of masks AND vaccines are better than vaccines by themselves or masks by themselves. I can't believe I have to explain such a simple concept.

You keep misunderstanding the point, which is the issue here. A mask mandate on top of vaccines is redundant if the vaccines themselves protect against spread of infections.

And many scientists say otherwise. There's also the detail of the breakthrough infections we already know about, the ones who are documented in other states. The only thing different about Provincetown is the sheer number of the outbreak.



And? A professor at UCSF disagrees with the CDC. So what?

I mean it's clear where your stance lies if you think CDC's assessment based on incomplete data from one place that isn't geographically representative and could very well be an anomaly is reasonable

 

[Lawpy]

Just think of it as wearing a shirt and pants… except its covering our ugly faces.

What exactly is the big deal?

You always buckle up when driving, and if it comes to it ( as it does in certain Asian countries) we should all just mask up

As for survival, you have to be trolling or just ignorant… it is NOT the deaths from the virus itself (although 600,000 seems quite enough), but the added deaths due to no beds for MIs, CVAs, car wrecks, lack of EMTs, nurses and doctors.

Its the traffic jam AFTER the initial car wreck that causes more wrecks.

The issue lies in what's the point of being vaccinated if masks are here to stay since it's effectively no different from pre-vaccine covid era in 2020. The people being hospitalized are overwhelmingly unvaccinated and less likely to wear masks