Australia --> Canada

[Mike84]

I am a Canadian citizen w/ an undergrad degree from UBC. I am thinking about applying to Australian and Irish schools. I am finding lots of mixed information regarding the likelihood of coming back to Canada after graduating from those schools.

Being able to come back home is quite important to me, and I have been told that securing an FM residency in Canada is not too difficult as an Irish or Australian IMG (w/ Canadian citizenship). Is this true?

Basically, I would like to know what path is the most likely to allow me to come back home to practice medicine after having been an IMG.

Would appreciate any clarifying information, or be directed to where I could find it.

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[moo]

I am a Canadian citizen w/ an undergrad degree from UBC. I am thinking about applying to Australian and Irish schools. I am finding lots of mixed information regarding the likelihood of coming back to Canada after graduating from those schools.

Being able to come back home is quite important to me, and I have been told that securing an FM residency in Canada is not too difficult as an Irish or Australian IMG (w/ Canadian citizenship). Is this true?

Basically, I would like to know what path is the most likely to allow me to come back home to practice medicine after having been an IMG.

Would appreciate any clarifying information, or be directed to where I could find it.

There's no guarantees that as an IMG you will be able to match into FP, especially in to the city of your choice. I think less than 10% of IMGs match into the second round of CaRMS (www.carms.ca), with the majority going to the US. Bottom line is don't go to an international school not accredited by the LCME expecting to come back to Canada. You can be severely burned.

 

[Mike84]

There's no guarantees that as an IMG you will be able to match into FP, especially in to the city of your choice. I think less than 10% of IMGs match into the second round of CaRMS (www.carms.ca), with the majority going to the US. Bottom line is don't go to an international school not accredited by the LCME expecting to come back to Canada. You can be severely burned.

I know a few people from UBC who have gone to Australia and Ireland under the impression that they will be able to come back if they choose (rural) FM. Is this just a misconception or uneducated optimism? I checked the CaRMs stats and a 13-14% match rate for IMGs is listed for 2004. Thing is, who are these 13-14%? Perhaps they are made up of a lot of Cdn citizens from Irish/Australian schools and the rest of the 86% of IMG applicants have inferior training. This is just my speculation.

 

[Mike84]

Also, what if you can secure an FM residency in the States after graduating from an Australian/Irish school? Can you come back to Canada after you finish the residency and are a fully licensed doctor?

 

[docbill]

Also, what if you can secure an FM residency in the States after graduating from an Australian/Irish school? Can you come back to Canada after you finish the residency and are a fully licensed doctor?

I don't want to give people the wrong idea here, I would like to introduce/ suggest taking a look at the DO route in the US. THIS IS NOT A BACKUP FOR MD DEGREE... BUT AN ULTERNATIVE OPTION. Most people from Canada don't know about DO school and it may be something of interest to them. After completing a DO degree in the US, one can come back to BC or most provinces in Canada and practice as a Physician (IDENTICAL TO MD degree holder). Also if you speciallize you can come back and work in BC in your specialty as well. Details are being worked out.

I am originally from BC, and I decided to go the DO route. Also I know UVICGUY also decided to apply and got in at DO medical school. This is mainly due to our interest in the philosophy and of course dificulty getting in a Canadian school.

 

[moo]

I know a few people from UBC who have gone to Australia and Ireland under the impression that they will be able to come back if they choose (rural) FM. Is this just a misconception or uneducated optimism? I checked the CaRMs stats and a 13-14% match rate for IMGs is listed for 2004. Thing is, who are these 13-14%? Perhaps they are made up of a lot of Cdn citizens from Irish/Australian schools and the rest of the 86% of IMG applicants have inferior training. This is just my speculation.

I think it depends what province you're from. Sask might be easy to come back and practice as a rural doc, but things may be different in more populous and popular provinces like BC and Ontario. I think you have to really be careful and evaluate all your options before you go to Australian or Irish schools. I am sure you will receive a great education at those schools but if you are seriously considering coming back to Canada, I would think twice. If you told me I only had a 13-14% chance of coming back to Canada, and coupled with the fact that I would probably end up in some rural area, where no one else wants to go, I probably would hesitate to go off shore. Most Canadians who graduate from these schools end up in the US.

 

[ewon2004]

Two facts you should consider before going off-shore:

(1) Like many people here have posted, IMGs are matching into 2nd iteration of Carms.

(2) Canadian medical schools are increasing their seats in the undergraduate MD program, while the number of residency spots remain relatively the same. It is approaching a 1:1 ratio (number of MD graduates : number of residency spots). This means there will be even fewer left over spots after the first round of match in Carms, making it even harder for IMGs to secure a spot in Canada.

Good luck!

 

[AusMeds]

Also, what if you can secure an FM residency in the States after graduating from an Australian/Irish school? Can you come back to Canada after you finish the residency and are a fully licensed doctor?

Mike84,

You should have little problem returning to Canada after doing a FP residency in the US. The FP residency program in the US is one year longer than in Canada so recognition of training length and quality will not be an issue. You will just have to write your Canadian exams to achieve licensure.

There are two ways that this can be done. You can write your Canadian exams while practicing in the U.S. then return to Canada when licensed. Or you can obtain temporary licensure in Newfoundland or Saskatchewan and immediately practice prior to writing your exams. You then have several years to pass your exams and obtain permanent licensure. At this point, you could remain in Newfoundland/Saskatchewan or migrate to another province.

The most common route for Canadians studying in Australia/Ireland to return to Canada is via the U.S. This is a very realistic and viable route as the U.S. has several thousand residency positions that are open to foreign students (unlike in Canada) since the U.S. views these foreign residents as a cost-effective way to supplement their health care staffing. This is a very different situation to Canada/CARMS where there are 100-200 surplus residency positions open for the second round.

The other option for returning to Canada is by doing a residency in Australia. Australian credentials are recognized and approved by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (see http://rcpsc.medical.org/residency/certification/img_e.php). Once again, all that would be required is to write your Canadian exams.

In summary, going to Australia/Ireland is a very viable route to enter medicine and is not at all a dead end. One must just be realistic and patient about the timeline to return to Canada and fully understand that you will likely not be able to achieve a residency in a competitive specialty. Personally, I view an extra few years in the US or Australia as part of the adventure and not wasted years by any means.

If on the other hand, you have a very pressing need to limit your time abroad to four years only - there is significant risk that you may not win one of the spots offered in the second round of CARMS. I do believe the odds are better than the 13-14% quoted in CARMS statistics as I would also speculate that recent grads from countries where the medical education is perceived as equivalent to Canada are preferred. However, in my mind, the risk is still material that one would not get a Canadian residency and would have to go the US or Australian route. If being back in Canada ASAP post-grad is an urgent need, then it may be worth an extra round at the Canadian Medical School Admissions game.

Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[leviathan]

AusMeds,

Would I be correct to assume that I could also finish a residency in something else (eg. Emergency Medicine) and practice in Canada with equal ease providing I write the apporpriate board exams?

Thanks.

Mike84,

You should have little problem returning to Canada after doing a FP residency in the US. The FP residency program in the US is one year longer than in Canada so recognition of training length and quality will not be an issue. You will just have to write your Canadian exams to achieve licensure.

There are two ways that this can be done. You can write your Canadian exams while practicing in the U.S. then return to Canada when licensed. Or you can obtain temporary licensure in Newfoundland or Saskatchewan and immediately practice prior to writing your exams. You then have several years to pass your exams and obtain permanent licensure. At this point, you could remain in Newfoundland/Saskatchewan or migrate to another province.

The most common route for Canadians studying in Australia/Ireland to return to Canada is via the U.S. This is a very realistic and viable route as the U.S. has several thousand residency positions that are open to foreign students (unlike in Canada) since the U.S. views these foreign residents as a cost-effective way to supplement their health care staffing. This is a very different situation to Canada/CARMS where there are 100-200 surplus residency positions open for the second round.

The other option for returning to Canada is by doing a residency in Australia. Australian credentials are recognized and approved by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (see http://rcpsc.medical.org/residency/certification/img_e.php). Once again, all that would be required is to write your Canadian exams.

In summary, going to Australia/Ireland is a very viable route to enter medicine and is not at all a dead end. One must just be realistic and patient about the timeline to return to Canada and fully understand that you will likely not be able to achieve a residency in a competitive specialty. Personally, I view an extra few years in the US or Australia as part of the adventure and not wasted years by any means.

If on the other hand, you have a very pressing need to limit your time abroad to four years only - there is significant risk that you may not win one of the spots offered in the second round of CARMS. I do believe the odds are better than the 13-14% quoted in CARMS statistics as I would also speculate that recent grads from countries where the medical education is perceived as equivalent to Canada are preferred. However, in my mind, the risk is still material that one would not get a Canadian residency and would have to go the US or Australian route. If being back in Canada ASAP post-grad is an urgent need, then it may be worth an extra round at the Canadian Medical School Admissions game.

Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[Mike84]

Mike84,

You should have little problem returning to Canada after doing a FP residency in the US. The FP residency program in the US is one year longer than in Canada so recognition of training length and quality will not be an issue. You will just have to write your Canadian exams to achieve licensure.

There are two ways that this can be done. You can write your Canadian exams while practicing in the U.S. then return to Canada when licensed. Or you can obtain temporary licensure in Newfoundland or Saskatchewan and immediately practice prior to writing your exams. You then have several years to pass your exams and obtain permanent licensure. At this point, you could remain in Newfoundland/Saskatchewan or migrate to another province.

The most common route for Canadians studying in Australia/Ireland to return to Canada is via the U.S. This is a very realistic and viable route as the U.S. has several thousand residency positions that are open to foreign students (unlike in Canada) since the U.S. views these foreign residents as a cost-effective way to supplement their health care staffing. This is a very different situation to Canada/CARMS where there are 100-200 surplus residency positions open for the second round.

The other option for returning to Canada is by doing a residency in Australia. Australian credentials are recognized and approved by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (see http://rcpsc.medical.org/residency/certification/img_e.php). Once again, all that would be required is to write your Canadian exams.

In summary, going to Australia/Ireland is a very viable route to enter medicine and is not at all a dead end. One must just be realistic and patient about the timeline to return to Canada and fully understand that you will likely not be able to achieve a residency in a competitive specialty. Personally, I view an extra few years in the US or Australia as part of the adventure and not wasted years by any means.

If on the other hand, you have a very pressing need to limit your time abroad to four years only - there is significant risk that you may not win one of the spots offered in the second round of CARMS. I do believe the odds are better than the 13-14% quoted in CARMS statistics as I would also speculate that recent grads from countries where the medical education is perceived as equivalent to Canada are preferred. However, in my mind, the risk is still material that one would not get a Canadian residency and would have to go the US or Australian route. If being back in Canada ASAP post-grad is an urgent need, then it may be worth an extra round at the Canadian Medical School Admissions game.

Hope this helps and good luck!

Thanks, AusMeds. What year are you in and what school do you go to? What are your plans after you graduate -- are you going to stay in Oz, apply to U.S. for residency, or try 2nd round CaRMs?

Any success stories of Canadians who manage to make it into the U.S. or Canada?

 

[silenthunder]

Hey Mike84,

have you considered any Caribbean schools? If you DO eventually decide that you would like to do a residency in the states, you may want to also do some clinical rotations there - Caribbean schools tend to do most (if not all) of there rotations in the states.

Some of the Caribbean schools are fairly respected in the states (although a stigma does still exist.....) and are cheaper than the Ireland/UK route (some are even cheaper than Australia!).

I am a student at St. Georges (Grenada), and I can say that I was surprised at the quality of education I'm receiving - a few courses were taught better than the instruction I got at Western (UWO - not that the education there was lacking).

just thought you might want a slightly different perspective (I too considered Ireland and Australia before ending up at SGU)

Cheers,

Silenthunder

 

[Mike84]

silenthunder,

What are the stats to get into Carib. schools (particularly SGU)? Do all the schools need MCAT?

Also, how is it for Canadians getting that visa for residency and practice in the States? (called H1-B or J-1, I think?)

Thanks for all of your help.

Hey Mike84,

have you considered any Caribbean schools? If you DO eventually decide that you would like to do a residency in the states, you may want to also do some clinical rotations there - Caribbean schools tend to do most (if not all) of there rotations in the states.

Some of the Caribbean schools are fairly respected in the states (although a stigma does still exist.....) and are cheaper than the Ireland/UK route (some are even cheaper than Australia!).

I am a student at St. Georges (Grenada), and I can say that I was surprised at the quality of education I'm receiving - a few courses were taught better than the instruction I got at Western (UWO - not that the education there was lacking).

just thought you might want a slightly different perspective (I too considered Ireland and Australia before ending up at SGU)

Cheers,

Silenthunder

 

[silenthunder]

not sure about the stats for all Caribbean schools - almost without a doubt SGU has the highest stats - somewhere around a 3.3, and a 25 MCAT were average (slightly lower for january entrance)

- that being said: the admissions counsellor I dealt with said that Canadian GPAs are looked at in a different light - something about our degree programs being perceived by admissions as more difficult than most american degree programs (I'm pretty sure I had something closer to a 3.0).

most schools are requiring the MCAT now (SGU/AUC/Ross all do)

I haven't heard of anyone having trouble getting the H1-B, although the J-1 poses more of a challenge (need to get a 'statement of need' letter, as well as writing the MCCEE, and then requesting a J-1 waiver once you're done residency......) I know people who have done it - you need to get an immigration lawyer to handle paperwork, and make sure you get your stuff submitted in a timely manner.

if you want more info on Caribbean schools, try doing a search in the Caribbean forum, and you may want to check some of the valuemd forums. I can also answer any questions that I might have knowledge of.

Cheers,

Silenthunder

silenthunder,

What are the stats to get into Carib. schools (particularly SGU)? Do all the schools need MCAT?

Also, how is it for Canadians getting that visa for residency and practice in the States? (called H1-B or J-1, I think?)

Thanks for all of your help.

 

[Mike84]

Hey silenthunder,

How many Canadians are down there w/ you at SGU (ballpark #)? Also, do you know what the match rate is like for Canadians who go to SGU and other Caribbean schools?

I have a friend who gradded from UBC who went down there for med school (I can't remember which one though), and he doesn't seem to be worried about getting a U.S. residency even though he's Canadian -- however, he's also marrying a girl who is a U.S. citizen (and classmate), so maybe he has an advantage.

not sure about the stats for all Caribbean schools - almost without a doubt SGU has the highest stats - somewhere around a 3.3, and a 25 MCAT were average (slightly lower for january entrance)

- that being said: the admissions counsellor I dealt with said that Canadian GPAs are looked at in a different light - something about our degree programs being perceived by admissions as more difficult than most american degree programs (I'm pretty sure I had something closer to a 3.0).

most schools are requiring the MCAT now (SGU/AUC/Ross all do)

I haven't heard of anyone having trouble getting the H1-B, although the J-1 poses more of a challenge (need to get a 'statement of need' letter, as well as writing the MCCEE, and then requesting a J-1 waiver once you're done residency......) I know people who have done it - you need to get an immigration lawyer to handle paperwork, and make sure you get your stuff submitted in a timely manner.

if you want more info on Caribbean schools, try doing a search in the Caribbean forum, and you may want to check some of the valuemd forums. I can also answer any questions that I might have knowledge of.

Cheers,

Silenthunder

 

[silenthunder]

About 10% of the people at SGU are Canadian (so about 100-120 at the campus in Grenada). I don't know what the 'match rate' is for Canadians going to SGU (I'm assuming you meant match rate for the US) I'm guessing it's pretty high - none of the people I have spoken to had a problem - one of our clinical tutors was Canadian, and was waiting for her visa (had already secured an IM residency) - (she's a moderator on valuemd ).

don't know how this works for other caribbean schools, but I'd assume about the same..... (I know some of the other schools have about the same % of Canadians attending)

None of the canadians I know anticipate a problem with going to the states for residency; this probably has to do with the fact that there are several residencies that go unfilled in the states (whereas that number in canada is very low......)

Cheers,

Silenthunder

Hey silenthunder,

How many Canadians are down there w/ you at SGU (ballpark #)? Also, do you know what the match rate is like for Canadians who go to SGU and other Caribbean schools?

I have a friend who gradded from UBC who went down there for med school (I can't remember which one though), and he doesn't seem to be worried about getting a U.S. residency even though he's Canadian -- however, he's also marrying a girl who is a U.S. citizen (and classmate), so maybe he has an advantage.

 

[moo]

However, just to warn you, many of the leftover specialties are in areas where nobody wants to go, usually smaller community hospitals. It will be very difficult to match into a big name specialty at a big name school unless you have connections.

 

[leviathan]

Can someone answer my question? I'm wondering about how difficult it would be to secure a job in Canada in something other than Family Practice, like Emergency Medicine (what I am currently interested in pursuing, though of course it could change). This is assuming I do my residency in the states (where EM is 3 or 4 years as opposed to Canada's 5), and then pass all the Canadian boards.

 

[NewCanadian]

Can someone answer my question? I'm wondering about how difficult it would be to secure a job in Canada in ....Emergency Medicine ....residency in the states (where EM is 3 or 4 years as opposed to Canada's 5), and then pass all the Canadian boards.

Possibility:
Take a four year EM program in the US
Take a clinical fellowship year in the US as the fifth year.
Ensure all training meets RCPSC requirements of training for EM: Send application for preliminary assessment of US training when you are in fourth year of training. Result of assessment: RCPSC accepts/credentials the four years, tells you need one more year in Canada or US. Pursue the fellowship accordingly. RCPSC then decides when you can write specialty exam.
[It is possible to write the RCPSC EM exam in the spring of your final year. Otherwise, write in the fall, after you return to Canada.]

Also required: LMCC (Licentiate of the Medical Council of Canada).

Securing a job.
Possibility: contact physican recruiters directly, they exist in every province, set up interviews.

 

[leviathan]

Possibility:
Take a four year EM program in the US
Take a clinical fellowship year in the US as the fifth year.
Ensure all training meets RCPSC requirements of training for EM: Send application for preliminary assessment of US training when you are in fourth year of training. Result of assessment: RCPSC accepts/credentials the four years, tells you need one more year in Canada or US. Pursue the fellowship accordingly. RCPSC then decides when you can write specialty exam.
[It is possible to write the RCPSC EM exam in the spring of your final year. Otherwise, write in the fall, after you return to Canada.]

Also required: LMCC (Licentiate of the Medical Council of Canada).

Securing a job.
Possibility: contact physican recruiters directly, they exist in every province, set up interviews.

Thanks for the info.

-L