ASTRO has gone full woke

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Ibram X. Kendi added to ASTRO 2020 program as Keynote speaker
The best-selling author of How to Be an Antiracist, Ibram X. Kendi, will address the 2020 ASTRO Annual Meeting on Monday, October 26, at 3:00 p.m. in a live session.

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[OTN]

You have got to be absolutely kidding me. How on Earth did critical race theory infect society to this extent?

I would like to use this space to state that I fully disagree with Ibram K. Kendi's entire thesis, and strongly agree with the criticism that he lures readers into a rhetorical trap: Being anti-racist is what HE says it is, and either you're on board, or you are not, and therefore a racist.

 

[BobbyHeenan]

Whoa. That's actually pretty surprising. Kendi and Critical Race Theory I feel are pretty destructive. I think Coates can be reasonable, but Kendi is too far out there for me (establishing a dept of anti-racism within the govt with carte blanche control)

John McWhorter is right - imagine even thinking for one second you would be safe to speak out against this.

Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom

Some fear for their career because they don’t believe progressive orthodoxies.

www.theatlantic.com

It's all a non-falsifiable hypothesis - if you deny that his anti-racists proposals are the right thing to do, then it's more proof you're a racist.

 

[OTN]

John McWhorter is one of my favorite black academics. He and Shelby Steele are very good at deconstructing and critiquing critical race theory.

 

[BobbyHeenan]

You have got to be absolutely kidding me. How on Earth did critical race theory infect society to this extent?

I would like to use this space to state that I fully disagree with Ibram K. Kendi's entire thesis, and strongly agree with the criticism that he lures readers into a rhetorical trap: Being anti-racist is what HE says it is, and either you're on board, or you are not, and therefore a racist.

If you want to go down a maddening worm hole, read this book:
Amazon product

I also recommend watching some of the mini documentary on the Evergreen College / Brett Weinstein fiasco there.

McWhorter is the man. He's working on a new book about how Critical Race Theory/Wokeness is a religion. I'm sure it will be a fantastic read.

FOr people unfamiliar with these people we're talking about (James Lindsay, John McWhorter, Brett Weinstein et al) these are not MAGA Trumpers...these are Obama voters, reasonable people. Centrists. They are just speaking out about the destructive nature of critical race theory.

 

[OTN]

Brett Weinstein's Dark Horse Podcast with his wife has also featured great discussion on the topic.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

James Lindsay had a great podcast with Joe Rogan

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Last straw. No more ASTRO dues

 

[BobbyHeenan]

I think this is probably one or two really woke people proposing Kendi and everyone just being afraid to say no.

Either way, I'm actually surprised.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Yeah... time for full woke. Extra glad I'm not bothering with their non-sense this year.

 

[theradiator]

Yeah... time for full woke. Extra glad I'm not bothering with their non-sense this year.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

 

[RadOncMegatron]

I am not surprised at all. Disappointed and incredibly sad yes, but not surprised. TERRIBLE DECISION. SHAME ON ASTRO.

 

[Haybrant]

Surprising that it’s a keynote. I think it’s ok as some optional talk/discussion. Medical care is absolutely a bastion where this shows up *EDITED BY MODS*

 

[BobbyHeenan]

Surprising that it’s a keynote. I think it’s ok as some optional talk/discussion. Medical care is absolutely a bastion where this shows up *EDITED BY MODS*

That'd be fine if Glen Loury or John McWhorter or Coleman Hughes or Thomas Chatterton Williams or Kmele Foster got a talk too.

This guy is pretty radical. I remain surprised.

 

[OTN]

Surprising that it’s a keynote. I think it’s ok as some optional talk/discussion. Medical care is absolutely a bastion where this shows up *EDITED BY MODS*

I would love to get into a real, honest dialogue about it all, but we all know it's not happening at ASTRO. Maybe - MAYBE - on this platform, as the de-identifying allows for non-woke opinions to be shared without the chance of severe harm to one's career and social status.

*EDITED BY MODS*

Edit: A Glen Loury/John McWhorter vs. Ibram Kendi debate would be absolutely incredible. I would actually attend ASTRO.

 

[BobbyHeenan]

I see, ya no clue who the guy is sounds like there would be better people. No real interest in Astro anyway

This is his proposal. What could possibly go wrong with this?

===
To fix the original sin of racism, Americans should pass an anti-racist amendment to the U.S. Constitution that enshrines two guiding anti-racist principals: Racial inequity is evidence of racist policy and the different racial groups are equals. The amendment would make unconstitutional racial inequity over a certain threshold, as well as racist ideas by public officials (with “racist ideas” and “public official” clearly defined). It would establish and permanently fund the Department of Anti-racism (DOA) comprised of formally trained experts on racism and no political appointees. The DOA would be responsible for preclearing all local, state and federal public policies to ensure they won’t yield racial inequity, monitor those policies, investigate private racist policies when racial inequity surfaces, and monitor public officials for expressions of racist ideas. The DOA would be empowered with disciplinary tools to wield over and against policymakers and public officials who do not voluntarily change their racist policy and ideas.

Idea: Pass an Anti-Racist Constitutional Amendment

“To fix the original sin of racism, Americans should pass an anti-racist amendment to the U.S. Constitution that enshrines two guiding antiracist principals,” writes Ibram X. Kendi.

www.politico.com

 

[evilbooyaa]

Folks are reminded to keep discussion in relation to the topic at hand in relation to medicine and Radiation Oncology and not get into discussion about whether law enforcement is inherently racist or not. There are innumerable locations to discuss that, including anonymized sources, and this forum on SDN is not the place to discuss those matters.

Again, to clarify, you are allowed to have 'non-woke' opinions here, but parlaying that into a discussion about racism in law enforcement, politics, etc. (outside of Radiation Oncology or at least something medicine related) is not within the scope of this forum.

Discussion about the public figure in general will be tentatively allowed, subject to moderator/admin's discretion.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Anywyas, back on topic, I do not have much to say (having never heard of this gentleman) besides the fact that his middle initial and last name make me think of Xtandi.

Maybe I'm the racist now for associating a black male with a metastatic prostate cancer drug.

 

[Gfunk6]

Last straw. No more ASTRO dues

Get woke, go broke as they say in Hollywood.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

This is not ASTRO's best idea. Which seems like an increasingly low bar to cross.

I've stated it before and I'll state it again, I take this primarily as a sign that there just isn't enough work/innovation to keep us all busy. We're inventing things for radiation oncologists to do that have nothing to do with radiation or oncology.

As a society I think ASTRO should attempt to foster a more diverse (and much smaller) pool of residents and stomp out disparities in access and outcomes for our patients. I don't think it's ASTRO's role to take on broader social justice issues and initiatives, many of which I fully support outside of the clinic. People can do that on their own time if they so choose. Spend your time and resources lobbying against the 6% pay cut we're about to get so we can give more money to organizations that may do more than pay lip service to all this.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

This is not ASTRO's best idea. Which seems like an increasingly low bar to cross.

I've stated it before and I'll state it again, I take this primarily as a sign that there just isn't enough work/innovation to keep us all busy. We're inventing things for radiation oncologists to do that have nothing to do with radiation or oncology.

As a society I think ASTRO should attempt to foster a more diverse (and much smaller) pool of residents and stomp out disparities in access and outcomes for our patients. I don't think it's ASTRO's role to take on broader social justice issues and initiatives, many of which I fully support outside of the clinic. People can do that on their own time if they so choose. Spend your time and resources lobbying against the 6% pay cut we're about to get so we can give more money to organizations that may do more than pay lip service to all this.

Reminds me of Stanley Fish's great book "Save the World on Your Own Time"

Amazon product

 

[deleted605854]

I would like to finally get certified by the ABR

Given what I see before me and how hard ASTRO has pivoted I would like to never attend another ASTRO meeting. In person or otherwise

Post ABR certification I think I'll retrain in something that doesn't require interacting with people. Preferably non medical

That is it, that is the entire post. All about rad onc

 

[RadOncMegatron]

 

[Lamount]

I am actually pretty curious and want to see it. I doubt I will agree with all or most of what he has to say... but it's fun to see smart people with unconventional theories try to make their case.

 

[RickyScott]

I am actually pretty curious and want to see it. I doubt I will agree with all or most of what he has to say... but it's fun to see smart people with unconventional theories try to make their case.

Also curious, but just think it is totally inappropriate for Astro. Would love to engage him and ask if inequality inherently equals racism. This is what makes people want to vote for Trump.

 

[OTN]

I am actually pretty curious and want to see it. I doubt I will agree with all or most of what he has to say... but it's fun to see smart people with unconventional theories try to make their case.

Historically, I would agree, as intellectuals would use 'logic' and 'reason' as tools to create and test a theory. Those days, unfortunately, are long gone. It's all ideology now.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Also curious, but just think it is totally inappropriate for Astro. Would love to engage him and ask if inequality inherently equals racism. This is what makes people want to vote for Trump.

I believe he does believe that inequality is evidence of racism. Not sure he's entirely wrong unless you assume that given exactly equal opportunity one race is superior to another. If you assume the protoplasm for success is equal between races, inequality of outcomes of populations on the macro level must be influenced by something else.

Again, I'm not sure how valuable such debate is to the practice of radiation oncology , but there it is.

 

[BobbyHeenan]

I am actually pretty curious and want to see it. I doubt I will agree with all or most of what he has to say... but it's fun to see smart people with unconventional theories try to make their case.

He I believe is a cancer patient (M1 colon cancer) and I'm sure he's intelligent and has a good story.

I just don't agree with his policies nor do I think it should be a keynote. I think if *insert a number of major cancer centers* were really serious about helping impoverished minorities they'd take medicaid. They want to tawk (shout out to Nassim Taleb) about it instead or mandate antiracism/implicit bias training with zero data that it helps (and it may hurt).

I believe he does believe that inequality is evidence of racism. Not sure he's entirely wrong unless you assume that given exactly equal opportunity one race is superior to another. If you assume the protoplasm for success is equal between races, inequality of outcomes must be influenced by something else.

His stance is what some have called "racism of the gaps" (derived from the position of the "God of the gaps" that says everything we can't explain in science can be explained by God). Kendi/Critical race theory would allege that all differences in outcomes are mostly (?or completely?) due to racism (structural or otherwise) and cannot be explained by other factors. Others on the other side would claim that cultural differences or poverty may be more important determinants. Others would claim biology ("protoplasm") has some play here - though that is a very dark take on things.

I expect his keynote to be likely compelling and entertaining, but when I took a deep dive into his work, I found it not appealing and borderline dangerous (a government funded institution that "monitors policies" and is "empowered with disciplinary tools" for whatever they deem racist). As noted above, other academics that I read have grave concerns about him and critical race theory in general. So I'm obviously biased by their takes.

 

[OTN]

I believe he does believe that inequality is evidence of racism. Not sure he's entirely wrong unless you assume that given exactly equal opportunity one race is superior to another. If you assume the protoplasm for success is equal between races, inequality of outcomes of populations on the macro level must be influenced by something else.

Again, I'm not sure how valuable such debate is to the practice of radiation oncology , but there it is.

Yes, but that "something else" does not have to be racism. You have to prove modern racism is the cause of the gap, and no one is even trying to do that. We're supposed to assume systemic racism is the cause without actually looking at the data. Belief over science. Religion over reason.

Edit: BobbyHeenan and I replied at the same time and basically said the same thing. I was even going to go into "God of the gaps" etc.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I think we should just redirect to on topic.

As was the prescription for ASTRO.

 

[deleted605854]

I think we should just redirect to on topic.

As was the prescription for ASTRO.

Fair enough.

I agree that medical professionals in general should be aware of health care disparities that inflict certain demographics within society . This is important, we all see it in our clinics.

But I think it's a dangerous thing for a medical society to espouse any notions that are far grander than what the field obliges the professionals to do. Especially a notion that is vastly enermous in scope to the very narrow audience that this particular professional society cultivates.

My friends we are the victims of the success of certain folks within the field. Advances in software ,hardware , plenty of residents and adequate remuneration vs the hours of work put in has made us stagnate compared to folks in other countries.

There are practice changing studies coming out of places that can't even get an MRI brain to stage a lung cancer patient. Think about that. Whereas you have institutions with the GDPs of small countries trying to push some kind of agenda within the field instead of actually innovating.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Fair enough.

I agree that medical professionals in general should be aware of health care disparities that inflict certain demographics within society . This is important, we all see it in our clinics.

But I think it's a dangerous thing for a medical society to espouse any notions that are far grander than what the field obliges the professionals to do. Especially a notion that is vastly enermous in scope to the very narrow audience that this particular professional society cultivates.

My friends we are the victims of the success of certain folks within the field. Advances in software ,hardware , plenty of residents and adequate remuneration vs the hours of work put in has made us stagnate compared to folks in other countries.

There are practice changing studies coming out of places that can't even get an MRI brain to stage a lung cancer patient. Think about that. Whereas you have institutions with the GDPs of small countries trying to push some kind of agenda within the field instead of actually innovating.

I think everyone can agree on this.

 

[theradiator]

He I believe is a cancer patient (M1 colon cancer) and I'm sure he's intelligent and has a good story.

I just don't agree with his policies nor do I think it should be a keynote. I think if *insert a number of major cancer centers* were really serious about helping impoverished minorities they'd take medicaid. They want to tawk (shout out to Nassim Taleb) about it instead or mandate antiracism/implicit bias training with zero data that it helps (and it may hurt).



His stance is what some have called "racism of the gaps" (derived from the position of the "God of the gaps" that says everything we can't explain in science can be explained by God). Kendi/Critical race theory would allege that all differences in outcomes are mostly (?or completely?) due to racism (structural or otherwise) and cannot be explained by other factors. Others on the other side would claim that cultural differences or poverty may be more important determinants. Others would claim biology ("protoplasm") has some play here - though that is a very dark take on things.

I expect his keynote to be likely compelling and entertaining, but when I took a deep dive into his work, I found it not appealing and borderline dangerous (a government funded institution that "monitors policies" and is "empowered with disciplinary tools" for whatever they deem racist). As noted above, other academics that I read have grave concerns about him and critical race theory in general. So I'm obviously biased by their takes.

It would be great if the speaker acknowledges that his life-saving (for oligometastasis!) treatment was administered without regard to his race, gender, wealth, profession or socioeconomic status.

 

[RadOncMegatron]

This is really going to bite ASTRO, especially if Kendi talks about the inherent privilege, fragility, and participation of systemic racism of white physicians. Also the topic of the power dynamics of black physicians and poor white patients? Who is the oppressor in that situation?

A debate would've been nice, but who is going to stick their neck out for it to be chopped?

 

[ramsesthenice]

Anywyas, back on topic, I do not have much to say (having never heard of this gentleman) besides the fact that his middle initial and last name make me think of Xtandi.

Maybe I'm the racist now for associating a black male with a metastatic prostate cancer drug.

My wife read this recently and it was on our coffee table for a while. At first blush my weak eyes kept seeing “How to be an antichrist”. You cant unsee it.

I read some of it and I agree I am surprised any major body would pick something this controversial. Regardless of how you feel about the ideas or content, many people are going to feel the opposite. I’m not sure what goal this serves. Woke people will still be woke (whatever that means exactly) and non-woke folks are going to feel like woke folks are telling them how to live.

 

[radiaterMike]

WARNING: Being woke is not for amateurs ...

 

[medgator]

That'd be fine if Glen Loury or John McWhorter or Coleman Hughes or Thomas Chatterton Williams or Kmele Foster got a talk too.

This guy is pretty radical. I remain surprised.

given current events, i can't say I'm completely surprised by ASTROs choice, but yes, they should get their own house in order first.

In a different political climate, i bet he would have not have been considered, let alone chosen

 

[RickyScott]

Not trying to be provocative, but when I rotated through mskcc and mdacc as medstudent, they had almost no/very few black patients. Would be interested to know the numbers today- maybe he is going to address that disparity?

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Not trying to be provocative, but when I rotated through mskcc and mdacc as medstudent, they had almost no/very few black patients. Would be interested to know the numbers today- maybe he is going to address that disparity?

Poseurs to be sure. Once MDACC puts a linac in the underprivileged part of Houston, MSKCC in Harlem and Mayo in Gary Indiana I might think that they are interested in disparities.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Poseurs to be sure. Once MDACC puts a linac in the underprivileged part of Houston, MSKCC in Harlem and Mayo in Gary Indiana I might think that they are interested in disparities.

You might be waiting for a while while!

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Funny enough in my experience, the field is filled with stooges, low energy **** steve hahn/falwell types, YUGE trump people, women abusers and thieves like PW. Where are these woke people hiding? When i look around i see tons of filth. ASTRO is a nauseating swamp of these people. Hypocrisy much?

 

[Radonc90]

Agree with all of the replies above.

One thing I know for sure: I will NOT be watching this show. Seems too extreme for me.

I am a moderate. I treat all patients, whether black, Hispanic, white, rich, poor etc. the same. Absolutely no distinction.
Also, I treat all pts the same, no matter if they have insurance or not, approx. 20% of my practice have no insurance.
I am proud to say that I treat the uninsured pts exactly the same way as my rich millionaire pts (that drive Mercedes, Lexus etc.).

ASTRO should have picked someone who is more neutral and less drama.
Choosing this speaker is ASTRO's knee-jerk reaction to the current national racism disasters...

 

[ramsesthenice]

I bet a lot of chairs and administrators care about diversity and social altruism on some level. The question is how many of them care enough to affect the bottom mine. At the same time, how many of us are really in a position to judge based on our own actions? Sure, I treat uninsured patients and I don’t really care about how much I get reimbursed for each patient but let’s be real, I’m a small part of a huge system and it’s easy for me to do this. I get paid the same either way. I don’t have to think about the budget or the bigger enterprise. Am I really sure what I would do if I actually had to track the bottom line? I like to think I would and I find political grandstanding abhorrent, but I think it’s important to spend as much time thinking about what I can do different as I do worrying about what other people should be doing.

In case anyone forgot, ASTRO is a political organization. They fit the part nicely.

 

[Radonc90]

I'd say some (not a lot) chairs care about diversity and social altruism.
Most of them are in for themselves.
Very few of them are genuine caring persons.

 

[Lamount]

Like I said above, I don’t agree with the premises of Kendi’s argument; and will certainly agree that ASTRO is most assuredly virtue-signaling... but i don’t think it is something to get upset about. I never got why any controversial speakers where actually controversial. Either his argument will be well-reasoned and convincing, or it won’t.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

In today’s world, you can have the most well reasoned argument possible and you won’t convince anyone of anything they don’t already believe.

 

[medgator]

In today’s world, you can have the most well reasoned argument possible and you won’t convince anyone of anything they don’t already believe.

Hell it can be factually true coming from a scientist/physician and it doesn't matter...

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

“The human understanding, when it has once adopted an opinion draws all things … to support and agree with it. And though there be a greater number and weight of instances to be found on the other side, yet these it either neglects and despises or … sets aside and rejects in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination, the authority of its former conclusions may remain inviolate”. (Francis Bacon 1602).

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Like I said above, I don’t agree with the premises of Kendi’s argument; and will certainly agree that ASTRO is most assuredly virtue-signaling... but i don’t think it is something to get upset about. I never got why any controversial speakers where actually controversial. Either his argument will be well-reasoned and convincing, or it won’t.

I don't mind hearing Kendi, but let's face it all this is one sided. If you brought John McWhorter, Glen Loury, Coleman Hughes, Larry Elder, or THE MAN Thomas Sowell then not only would you be hearing all sides of the argument, you would promoting peace in this polarized time.

Part of the problem, is that Critical Race Theorist shun argumentation and reasoning as tools to suppress or write off minority voices. To disagree is an affront - prominent theme in Robin DeAngelo's "White Fragility."

This is not the NBA or NFL - ASTRO is not a venue for entertainment and is not selling a product. We are physicians who treat patients with cancer and to bring in one of the most divisive persons into this arena without bringing counter points, runs opposite of the oaths we swore to be healers to all. Looking at the Twitter world, there is already talk of "I only want to see this type of doctor." This move by ASTRO plays into that when most of us agree with @Radonc90's quote above.

Sad day for ASTRO. If they want to play partisan politics in this highly charged and polarized world, well they better be ready to pay the price.

 

[mheat3]

There are practice changing studies coming out of places that can't even get an MRI brain to stage a lung cancer patient. Think about that. Whereas you have institutions with the GDPs of small countries trying to push some kind of agenda within the field instead of actually innovating.

There isn't a like button I can press enough to agree with this.