ASTRO Blog Post from Dr. Harari

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This was just posted from Dr. Harari. I think it is a proper acknowledgement of some of the issues people have been talking about on this forum at length and has the potential to move things in the right direction moving into the future. I don't think you need an ASTRO login to see the post.

ASTRO Blog- American Society for Radiation Oncology (ASTRO) - American Society for Radiation Oncology (ASTRO)

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Sounds like ACGME is proposing changing rad onc training requirements.


This is a good sign. First movement in many years
 
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Good post, the most important thing being the figure showing residency slots. Still highly doubt he is correct about the residency expansion issue and antitrust - why hasn’t it happened in urology/neurosurg/derm/plastics? It literally makes no sense and the residency expansion figure is so damning, just look at that thing. Also left out was the most obvious reason for all this which is the role of his friends Wallner/Kachnic. No surprise there though
 
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Good post, the most important thing being the figure showing residency slots. Still highly doubt he is correct about the residency expansion issue and antitrust - why hasn’t it happened in urology/neurosurg/derm/plastics? It literally makes no sense and the residency expansion figure is so damning, just look at that thing. Also left out was the most obvious reason for all this which is the role of his friends Wallner/Kachnic. No surprise there though

“Very fine people”, i hear
 
Second Paragraph "...anti-trust laws prohibit organizations such as ASTRO from engaging in activities that could negatively impact the U.S. free marketplace." - If that's not a statement to CYA I don't know what is

As far as the ACGME proposals, what are the options?

1. Increase the EBRT requirements +/- add 1-2 years of residency on top of that. That might eliminate some programs granted they don't outright lie about their numbers. It'll probably also throw cold water on medical students interests as well. I mean they're gonna do a 6-7 years of training and gain what skills exactly?

2. Add more subjective requirements - "Is the environment conducive to learning?" "Does it foster intellectual curiosity?" - Might be fodder to get rid of small programs that are mostly clinically focused with no research base, but then again majority of RO programs do not have a well funded research base.

3. Tacit requirement for a Fellowship - Just like good old Rads

4. Delivering Systemic agents like immuno and chemo - NEVER GONNA HAPPEN

5. Doing more interventional work - Yeah right. You and every other specialty trying to get into wire guided catheter work.

6. Requiring an inpatient services - RO would need admit privileges which most do not have. Prevalent in Canada from what I understand. Will be awkward at first but may actually get to do medicine.

My expectations for ACGME proposals are quite low. Quite frankly I think its time we came to the realization that ROs days as a stand alone specialty are numbered. Perhaps making it an outright fellowship after Heme-onc would be the best way moving forward. You'll have people that are already oncological trained and also can practice halfway decent general medicine, which is more than I can say for us.
 
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What about an accelerated program similar to NCI? Is that program still around? It seems like one could create a program that is 6 years, wherein one leaves boarded in IM, HO, RO. last year of IM in most programs is a joke, second year far easier with many supervisory rotations of interns with call sprinkled in, along with electives (pulm, nephro etc). I know this because i have an IM background. Could easily tailor such a system for resident’s individual interests. Why not roll this out as a pathway?

Idk about a fellowship after heme onc, that seems excessive but seems more important to combine redundancies etc. I do think dramatic bold actions have to be taken, setting aside bitterness, etc, lets actually do something to make it better for us and those after us!

If residency was extended and it gave me no extra skill or marketability, that is useless and a huge power grab to enslave residents further. If one is going to increase length you gotta deliver value. some programs already offer 1 year of “research” which is pretty much an admission of “hey we used to do this in 3 years, go get an Mba/mph and publish a few papers”
 
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Derm compared to RO:
Figure 1: training programs
Figure 2 residently slots
PMID: 29024732

gr1.jpg

gr2.jpg
 
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What about an accelerated program similar to NCI? Is that program still around? It seems like one could create a program that is 6 years, wherein one leaves boarded in IM, HO, RO. last year of IM in most programs is a joke, second year far easier with many supervisory rotations of internas with call sprinkled in. I know this because i have an IM background. Could easily tailor such a system for resident’s individual interests. Why not roll this out as a pathway?

Idk about a fellowship after heme onc, that seems excessive but seems more important to combine redundancies etc. I do think dramatic bold actions have to be taken, setting aside bitterness, etc, lets actually do something to make it better for us and those before us!

I thought Zeitman at some point proposed something similar in the past but it wouldn't be 6 years it would be more like 8-10. May be totally off the mark on that
 
I thought Zeitman at some point proposed something similar in the past but it wouldn't be 6 years it would be more like 8-10. May be totally off the mark on that

8-10 would be way too much, really longer than neurosurgery plus 1 year fellowship? That is NUTS. this has to be done thoughtfully or better not at all.
 
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What about an accelerated program similar to NCI? Is that program still around? It seems like one could create a program that is 6 years, wherein one leaves boarded in IM, HO, RO. last year of IM in most programs is a joke, second year far easier with many supervisory rotations of interns with call sprinkled in, along with electives (pulm, nephro etc). I know this because i have an IM background. Could easily tailor such a system for resident’s individual interests. Why not roll this out as a pathway?

Idk about a fellowship after heme onc, that seems excessive but seems more important to combine redundancies etc. I do think dramatic bold actions have to be taken, setting aside bitterness, etc, lets actually do something to make it better for us and those after us!

If residency was extended and it gave me no extra skill or marketability, that is useless and a huge power grab to enslave residents further. If one is going to increase length you gotta deliver value. some programs already offer 1 year of “research” which is pretty much an admission of “hey we used to do this in 3 years, go get an Mba/mph and publish a few papers”

Derm compared to RO:
Figure 1: training programs
Figure 2 residently slots
PMID: 29024732

gr1.jpg

gr2.jpg

Dermatologists are clearly some of the smartest people in medicine, in many ways!
 
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8-10 would be way too much, really longer than neurosurgery plus 1 year fellowship? That is NUTS. this has to be done thoughtfully or better not at all.

I think that's probably his bias from being in the British System where you go straight away into med school at 18 and spend 5 years there and then spend your time as a registrar for god knows how long then additional fellowship training. Maybe it works out roughly the same in Britain but in the US certainly wouldn't fly and would probably actively discourage students from pursuing when they have lots of debt and lives outside of medicine they'd like to live.
 
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FYI recent ROhub post by Dr. K Oliver (Mayo) confirms ACGME raising requirement to at least six residents, warning that smaller programs (<6) “should consider if expansion is wise”. The ACGME is coming for your “small program”. Or you could just “consider” it then expand to six since leadership is all stuck on “antitrust” and will do nothing.

Apparently he also believes SDN is filled with “misanthropes”.
 
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Glad to hear harari wasn't hating on the (prescient) issues SDN brought up years ago which somehow was a wakeup call to ASTRO leadership this past week
 
So if SDN are all a bunch of kafkaesque misanthropes, then it was wrong all along about the issues right Dr. Oliver?

The Vegas guy already deleted his “stench” post. Probably hammer came down hard. This is why we need SDN, i guess where the powerless misanthropes hang out and talk nonsense about our cockroach existance.

Colour me misanthropic, but i see a lot more real people here who state issues and discuss difficult subjects. Places like ROhub will never have this freeness of thought and expression without fears of repercussion.
 
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Glad to hear harari wasn't hating on the (prescient) issues SDN brought up years ago which somehow was a wakeup call to ASTRO leadership this past week

Get ready for them to own it like they are the saviors. SDN was out in front of this issue by years. A few of us were talking about this in and before 2014. But now that some of these academics have heard about it for one week they’ll be weighing in on it like they are some super experts and they know how to save us all. I’ve already heard this from many of them.
 
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The fact that a PD from a large academic program is concerned about SDN, speaks to the state of affairs of radiation oncology. Imagine the PD of urology or neurosurgery at Mayo lamenting about sdn. He's crying because his power is waning. He wants people to look away from the real issues. He doesn't realize he's dealing with adults with genuine concerns, some of whom are his peers, and not his children or residents.
 
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The fact that a PD from a large academic program is concerned about SDN, speaks to the state of affairs of radiation oncology. Imagine the PD of urology or neurosurgery at Mayo lamenting about sdn. He's crying because his power is waning. He wants people to look away from the real issues. He doesn't realize he's dealing with adults with genuine concerns, some of whom are his peers, and not his children or residents.

What is the reference about the PD here?
 
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What is the reference about the PD here?

Oliver is a PD trying to attract more medical students to this dying field.


BTW Oliver, since I know you read this, I'm all for attracting medical students, but you should fix your problems before you do that. Everyone jumping on this BS bandwagon to attract more medical students to this field should really tell them they may never become board certified and even if they do, they won't work where they want. Why do all of you get defensive when someone mentions the ABR fiasco? Its immoral and unethical to play these charades. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your storyline.
 
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First off we’re not misanthropes we’re misogynists.

The tone-deafness and just outright denial coping mechanisms are still surprising. Not only is there over-expansion and job market issues and geographic problems... and the board exam fiasco... you still have to factor in the massive hypofractionation push into the price of doing business. One reason I was excited about rad onc as a med student was one morning on GMA a female rad onc was on discussing some study and said “All breast lumpectomy patients need radiation” (was years ago obviously lol). Radiation oncologists are treating about half the amount of breast and prostate cancer, two of the commonest rad onc patients, than they used to. This will relegate academic departments farther down the economic pecking order whereas they were quite high up in the past. I know hospitals do well in terms of legally over billing but still, when you essentially halve the number of indications for a disease (which is in essence what hypofx does) it’s going financially to affect doctors who take care of that disease. Med students are savvy consumers. They want to buy a product with high value and be sure the sellers are honest and won’t disallow them from being a purchaser if they make large upfront investments.
 
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I don't believe any field of medicine has put forth as much effort to prove people either don't need, or need much less of what that field has to offer.

Seems like this is the only research we've reported on since I started residency. Oh yeah, and the abscopal effect. That may be a thing. Maybe? I don't know. Never really researched it...

Make/save that money now gents.
 
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The field is obsessed to its own detriment in finding ways to push out the single modality we all train to give. These are our “leaders”. What will be left?
 
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guessing you've never once internally chided a urologist for inappropriate prostatectomies? either for super low risk or high risk patients?

Because if you have - you're being a major hypocrite.

a good rad onc knows who to treat and who doesn't need treatment. sorry if you're more interested in being a technician.
 
I don't believe any field of medicine has put forth as much effort to prove people either don't need, or need much less of what that field has to offer.

Seems like this is the only research we've reported on since I started residency. Oh yeah, and the abscopal effect. That may be a thing. Maybe? I don't know. Never really researched it...

Make/save that money now gents.


The bigwig med oncs make fun of us :(
 
guessing you've never once internally chided a urologist for inappropriate prostatectomies? either for super low risk or high risk patients?

Because if you have - you're being a major hypocrite.

a good rad onc knows who to treat and who doesn't need treatment. sorry if you're more interested in being a technician.


When Fisher first proposed that maybe women didn't need radical Halstead-ian mastectomies, plenty of breast surgeons hated him. Thankfully he didn't care/listen.

I'm hopeful urologists can similarly evolve to allow more trimodality therapy for bladder cancer and do less cystectomies. But according to these guys here they would be 'self-sabotaging' their field.

what a joke.
 
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guessing you've never once internally chided a urologist for inappropriate prostatectomies? either for super low risk or high risk patients?
No, but I do curse the NCCN’s brazen effrontery for recommending RP as a tx option in both instances of which you speak.
 
When Fisher first proposed that maybe women didn't need radical Halstead-ian mastectomies, plenty of breast surgeons hated him. Thankfully he didn't care/listen.

I'm hopeful urologists can similarly evolve to allow more trimodality therapy for bladder cancer and do less cystectomies. But according to these guys here they would be 'self-sabotaging' their field.

what a joke.
Almost two decades ago rad onc Mary G wrote a nice editorial about bladder chemoRT (sans cystectomy), “Are we ignoring the evidence?”

Pleased to report urologists have quit ignoring that evidence in the interim and are in fact doing less cystectomies (eye roll).
 
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Almost two decades ago rad onc Mary G wrote a nice editorial about bladder chemoRT (sans cystectomy), “Are we ignoring the evidence?”

Pleased to report urologists have quit ignoring that evidence in the interim (eye roll).


Radoncs are weak in everything they do.
 
Radoncs are weak in everything they do.

Dude how does that comment follow the one you quoted...... like at all?


Also I like how you said ‘they’ instead of ‘we’ because it’s been incredibly obvious for a while now that you’re a clear troll and not actually a practicing radiation oncologist.
 
My suggestion to ASTRO, academics, chairs, program directors, and anyone else pretending everything is gravy:

There are a lot of people that are angry at what's happening right now and what has happened in the last year. Residents with concerns that haven't been acknowledged; colleagues in the private sector that have basically been steam rolled by academic abuse of residents, have been at the receiving end of unfair business practices, and have been labeled substandard doctors by your group time and time again. There are junior faculty that only now are realizing they've been duped: and basically 90% of your field who thinks the ABR (and your buddies Lisa and Paul) are cons.

Now true, they may not have that much power, but times have changed. This isn't 1990. Word travels real fast. These angry folks, while they dont have much power, they sure have a lot of knowledge. They are intimately connected to your field and can probably do a lot of damage. So maybe you should start listening and start making concrete efforts.

As for the panderers out there, you look like tools. Everyone can see it and it's unbecoming. Have some backbone. You basically jump on any bandwagon passing by to impress your chair. Stop it. You're a physician. Act like one. Stop trying to get ahead by selling lies. Your colleagues remember this stuff. Heck, even ASTROs leadership thinks you look like idiots.
 
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Dude how does that comment follow the one you quoted...... like at all?


Also I like how you said ‘they’ instead of ‘we’ because it’s been incredibly obvious for a while now that you’re a clear troll and not actually a practicing radiation oncologist.

Caught me red handed. I'm a nurse dating a radiation oncologist. He's borderline suicidal. I'm trying to help him.
 
Caught me red handed. I'm a nurse dating a radiation oncologist. He's borderline suicidal. I'm trying to help him.

Listen. I am on your side, but with posts like this you have officially lost your s---.

While you have a ways to go to reach the level of immaturity the twitter crowd is displaying, this isn't a great look. Let the children on twitter continue to embarrass themselves with the obvious groupthink pandering and give them less fodder for discrediting this forum.
 
So if SDN are all a bunch of kafkaesque misanthropes, then it was wrong all along about the issues right Dr. Oliver?

The Vegas guy already deleted his “stench” post. Probably hammer came down hard. This is why we need SDN,

His post is preserved in the other thread... Thanks to our fellow SDN miscreants
 
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Derm compared to RO:
Figure 1: training programs
Figure 2 residently slots
PMID: 29024732

gr1.jpg

gr2.jpg
Statistical musing:

The slope of the rad onc and derm curves are somewhat similar at about 20 residents per year increased growth, and both slopes have clear upward trend with time (p<0.001). However, resident positions in rad onc have net increased ~36% over 12 years and derm ~21% over 10 years. Rad onc has thus had more net growth than derm over a similar time period (ANCOVA p=0.04).
 
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Statistical musing:

The slope of the rad onc and derm curves are somewhat similar at about 20 residents per year increased growth, and both slopes have clear upward trend with time (p<0.001). However, rad onc has net increased ~36% over 12 years and derm ~21% over 10 years. Rad onc has thus had more net growth than derm over a similar time period (ANCOVA p=0.04).

So while it looks like expansion can not be helped even in competitive specialties, the other side of this equation is demand with respect to RO vs Derm.
 
Statistical musing:

The slope of the rad onc and derm curves are somewhat similar at about 20 residents per year increased growth, and both slopes have clear upward trend with time (p<0.001). However, resident positions in rad onc have net increased ~36% over 12 years and derm ~21% over 10 years. Rad onc has thus had more net growth than derm over a similar time period (ANCOVA p=0.04).


nice post, thanks for parsing the numbers for us.
nice to have facts.
 
I don't believe any field of medicine has put forth as much effort to prove people either don't need, or need much less of what that field has to offer.

Seems like this is the only research we've reported on since I started residency. Oh yeah, and the abscopal effect. That may be a thing. Maybe? I don't know. Never really researched it...

Make/save that money now gents.

True beyond belief. Where there are reasonable opportunities to reduce treatment, these should be pursued. It has morphed into a crusade about cutting radiation, just to cut it.

Hypofractionation for breast done in a reasonable, seasoned manner with long term results before adoption. Prostate hypofraction is the opposite. We took a scheme used in low risk disease, shook it up with some European trials that included a clear minority of high risk disease, included HYPRO (which showed 3.4 Gy fractions can control high grade disease, but also cause significantly worse side effects and should not be used on patients) and came out with a policy statement that every prostate should be hypofractionated. Period.

All previous evidence that dose escalation, including by brachytherapy, may be beneficial was not even considered. And I recall getting into this argument with Chartreuse or someone about the follow up. The RTOG 0415 study had a follow up of 5 years. And guess what came out recently? RTOG 9413. The curves started to separate at 7 years in that trial - it's almost as if there can be late recurrences in prostate cancer that mandate sufficient follow up to adequately report. But what did ASTRO do? Policy statement - hypofractionate every prostate. " Based on high-quality evidence, strong consensus was reached for offering moderate hypofractionation across risk groups to patients choosing external beam radiation therapy." I do not need to treat prostates in 39, 42, 48 fractions for my income. But how can one possibly look at the balance of evidence, those trials (including a negative one for toxicity!!!!!!) and conclude that the evidence supports that recommendation. It's garbage. It may be proven with time, it is absolutely not proven now. It's like some kind of weird and pathetic gimmick to prostrate ourselves to insurance companies prematurely.

70 yr old with breast cancer? Well those 3 weeks of radiation are just too terrible - take 5 years of hormonal therapy instead, so we can save society. Rather than advocating for a short treatment course that continually reduces the risk of LR in every single trial, and has very low grades of grade 2+ late effects, it's like we pat ourselves on the back for recommending 5 years of hormones which has inferior outcomes. But that's ok, why advocate for something that is short, well tolerated, and works?

I don't get it. We have pharmacy companies doing direct to consumer advertising, and instead of using our PAC money to do that and spread awareness of radiation, we are actively trying to cede our role at all costs. Even though we are the smallest of oncologic care spending.
 
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This really hits it on the head. The prostate thing is so egregious. If Harari had something to do with this someone should be sure to let him understand the consequences. In the next year the level of clarity about how far we have fallen and what we have sacrificied to follow our thought leaders who can hardly muster raising their voice to a referring or a hospital admin will grown more and more clear. 30 unfilled positions will look like the good days compared to 50+ next year.

Someone mentioned Rad Onc as a fellowship after med onc. It’s an interesting idea actually.

True beyond belief. Where there are reasonable opportunities to reduce treatment, these should be pursued. It has morphed into a crusade about cutting radiation, just to cut it.

Hypofractionation for breast done in a reasonable, seasoned manner with long term results before adoption. Prostate hypofraction is the opposite. We took a scheme used in low risk disease, shook it up with some European trials that included a clear minority of high risk disease, included HYPRO (which showed 3.4 Gy fractions can control high grade disease, but also cause significantly worse side effects and should not be used on patients) and came out with a policy statement that every prostate should be hypofractionated. Period.

All previous evidence that dose escalation, including by brachytherapy, may be beneficial was not even considered. And I recall getting into this argument with Chartreuse or someone about the follow up. The RTOG 0415 study had a follow up of 5 years. And guess what came out recently? RTOG 9413. The curves started to separate at 7 years in that trial - it's almost as if there can be late recurrences in prostate cancer that mandate sufficient follow up to adequately report. But what did ASTRO do? Policy statement - hypofractionate every prostate. " Based on high-quality evidence, strong consensus was reached for offering moderate hypofractionation across risk groups to patients choosing external beam radiation therapy." I do not need to treat prostates in 39, 42, 48 fractions for my income. But how can one possibly look at the balance of evidence, those trials (including a negative one for toxicity!!!!!!) and conclude that the evidence supports that recommendation. It's garbage. It may be proven with time, it is absolutely not proven now. It's like some kind of weird and pathetic gimmick to prostrate ourselves to insurance companies prematurely.

70 yr old with breast cancer? Well those 3 weeks of radiation are just too terrible - take 5 years of hormonal therapy instead, so we can save society. Rather than advocating for a short treatment course that continually reduces the risk of LR in every single trial, and has very low grades of grade 2+ late effects, it's like we pat ourselves on the back for recommending 5 years of hormones which has inferior outcomes. But that's ok, why advocate for something that is short, well tolerated, and works?

I don't get it. We have pharmacy companies doing direct to consumer advertising, and instead of using our PAC money to do that and spread awareness of radiation, we are actively trying to cede our role at all costs. Even though we are the smallest of oncologic care spending.
 
Let me preface: I am against residency expansion. SDN is in the right, the Twitter crowd is in the wrong. I myself have been wrong in the past, on this board.

That said, the one very annoying thing parroted on here is this line that rad onc is the only specialty seeking to destroy itself. That is a very, very exaggerated way of looking at the situation, and is false.

Did Klotz at Sunnybrook try to kill urology with active surveillance? What about Bell Carter at Hopkins?
What about Hamdy -- did he try to kill urology with ProtecT?
What about Sparano...trying to kill med onc with the TailorRX trial?
What about Francis -- trying to kill cardiology by looking at stenting? What about the courage trial for stenting?
What about Wolff...was he trying to kill ENT by starting the VA Larynx Trial?

These are all prominent examples of people who straight up eliminated an intervention from their specialty, in the name of de-escalated treatment. It is NOT unique to rad onc. Ironically, we as rad oncs hail these guys because their omissions are helpful to us.

It's simply a false narrative. None of the hypofract/SBRT trials for prostate, for example, are looking to eliminate radiation. They shorten the number of fractions, but you're treating the same number of patients.

Because if i see 10 prostate cancer patients, and SBRT all of them...I still see, plan, and treat 10 patients. What I lose out on is multiple OTVs. I fail to see that's a question of less patients being treated, if anything, it is very akin to dialing down a halsted mastectomy to a lumpectomy.

It could , conceivably, shift patients away from a community site to an academic side. but the net # of patients needing RT and getting treated is the same.

I think those hating on SBRT and hypofrac (but, specifically, SBRT) are really missing the boat here. RP for low risk prostate cancer is GONE. We will be competing for intermediate risk patients and high risk patients. For int risk, assuming no ECE on MRI, etc...those patients have a good shot of good outcomes after RP alone. They can chose RP alone, or stop their life for 9 weeks of radiation. What do they choose? But what if they had RP alone, or 5 radiation treatments? Much easier choice. If any of you treat working age patients, you'll see the convenience piece.
 
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Not to mention, I don't really want to get into a debate about the consensus statements again (they are what they are), but there's a lot of selective outrage and selective ommission.
 
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MegaVoltagePhoton - Spot the Bleep on. Well said. I think you may be over the head of some of the posters here, but yes to all you said. It's infuriating to read people say that crap over and over again here.

Also - SDN is not unique from what I've seen on residency expansion being a problem worth discussion - that's literally all over rad onc twitter.
 
also - no one has said (in consensus study or otherwise?) to stop treating women above 65 or 70 for early stage breast cancer. If anything the results of PRIME-II or CALGB show that the recurrence rates at 10 years (I know Prime II only has 5 year f/u reported to date) are expected to be around 10% with HT alone (vs 2% with RT). I use this to counsel patients when I give them all the options. For an otherwise healthy woman, when they hear that recurrence risk and also hear that there wouldn't necessarily be a plateau and their recurrence risk increases with age - they opt for treatment.

Especially when treatment is so easy at 3 weeks (or less if you offer 5-fraction partial breast IMRT). Who says no to that?
 
I think breast surgeons have been some of the most oncologically sound as well as brave when it comes to what they're willing to look at with their studies (especially compared to urologists)

The newest NRG Study (BR-005) is actually looking at AVOIDING SURGERY ALTOGETHER and doing radiation alone in women with locally advanced breast cancer who have a PCR to neoadjuvant chemo (Her2 directed therapy).

The PI of the study is a breast surgeon.

Assessing the Accuracy of Tumor Biopsies After Chemotherapy to Determine if Patients Can Avoid Breast Surgery - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

https://ascopubs.org/doi/abs/10.1200/JCO.2018.36.15_suppl.TPS604

'Results will provide the first step towards a paradigm change in the treatment of breast cancer, enabling a study to assess the criteria for successful avoidance of surgery in pts with high response rates to NCT.'
 
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You guys are silly.

No one is selectively outraged about hypofractionating breast, or omitting treatment in 80 year old comorbid T1a patients. I do them routinely, without hesitation. I do them because it's what's right for the patient. These are good things.

It, however, is NOT a good thing that we haven't mustered any focus on the flip side of the coin. Expanding indications for radiation. Expanding our sphere of influence within oncology. Expanding our role and voice within the care of our patients. Expanding our seat at the table. We currently have a phox (pharma fox TM) guarding the hen house of our reimbursement. Who is advocating for us?

No. None of that has been done. Low hanging fruit has been plucked, all too often by other countries mind you, but challenging work has been avoided. CVs buffered to the detriment of the next generation of rad oncs.

I know. I'm the evil private practice doc, who needs patients on treatment to keep the lights on and hourly employees fed. But that applies everywhere. Just because your academic center can wisely choose to bill 3x as much for the same treatment now, doesn't mean that will always be the case.

This discussion is held in a context of 31 unmatched spots. Spots that were avoided by smart, critically thinking individuals who have the next 30 years in mind. I struggle to disagree with their decision.
 
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Hypofractionation and active surveillance are generally very good for patients! and wouldn't be viewed as an "issue" if it wasn't for the rapid and irresponsible expansion of residency programs. That is the real culprit here.

There is truth to the poor marketing for RO though. Far more women >70 with ER+ breast cancer are getting tamoxifen alone for 5 years rather than RT alone. Why is this? Med oncs aren't even making money off tamoxifen.

If you look at derm, the number of training programs has barely changed over a 10 year period. Existing programs have increased spots but that seems responsible given population growth, aging, and high demand for services. But we have far eclipsed their rate of expansion and have added many new mom and pop programs.

Given our small size, we are very susceptible to surpluses of docs in the market which is why the field should have been much more cautious about expanding. Instead, we had a decade of tulip mania culminating in the 2019 match.
 
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You guys are silly.

No one is selectively outraged about hypofractionating breast, or omitting treatment in 80 year old comorbid T1a patients. I do them routinely, without hesitation. I do them because it's what's right for the patient. These are good things.

It, however, is NOT a good thing that we haven't mustered any focus on the flip side of the coin. Expanding indications for radiation. Expanding our sphere of influence within oncology. Expanding our role and voice within the care of our patients. Expanding our seat at the table. We currently have a phox (pharma fox TM) guarding the hen house of our reimbursement. Who is advocating for us?

No. None of that has been done. Low hanging fruit has been plucked, all too often by other countries mind you, but challenging work has been avoided. CVs buffered to the detriment of the next generation of rad oncs.

I know. I'm the evil private practice doc, who needs patients on treatment to keep the lights on and hourly employees fed. But that applies everywhere. Just because your academic center can wisely choose to bill 3x as much for the same treatment now, doesn't mean that will always be the case.

This discussion is held in a context of 31 unmatched spots. Spots that were avoided by smart, critically thinking individuals who have the next 30 years in mind. I struggle to disagree with their decision.


So...which is it? Are we the only field to not look into de-intensification of treatment, or are you satisfied with moving your goal posts?

By the way, glad to see you seem to have missed the developments in SBRT for oligometastatic/oligoprogressive disease and/or the use of consolidative radiatiotherapy in metastatic disease. You must still be in residency, since these are developments that occurred in late 2018 and you haven't seen any increases in indication for our use since you finished residency.
 
So...which is it? Are we the only field to not look into de-intensification of treatment, or are you satisfied with moving your goal posts?

By the way, glad to see you seem to have missed the developments in SBRT for oligometastatic/oligoprogressive disease and/or the use of consolidative radiatiotherapy in metastatic disease. You must still be in residency, since these are developments that occurred in late 2018 and you haven't seen any increases in indication for our use since you finished residency.

Keytruda my man. Oligomets get Keytruda in the real world. But the plan to sustain our field on a few more QOD, 4 fraction patients when the med oncs feel like tossing us a bone is completely feasible IMO.
 
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Keytruda my man. Oligomets get Keytruda in the real world. But the plan to sustain our field on a few more QOD, 4 fraction patients when the med oncs feel like tossing us a bone is completely feasible IMO.

Sucks to have your referring docs, I guess.

Also must suck to say "there have been no advances since I finished residency", get called out, and move the goal posts yet again.

Go ahead and keep treating prostate patients for 9 weeks and complaining about other people advancing the field. Please proceed.
 
By the way, glad to see you seem to have missed the developments in SBRT for oligometastatic/oligoprogressive disease and/or the use of consolidative radiatiotherapy in metastatic disease. You must still be in residency, since these are developments that occurred in late 2018 and you haven't seen any increases in indication for our use since you finished residency.

Are you really trying to imply that the decreases in radiation indications/schedule for breast and prostate are made up for a recent phase II abstract presented at ASTRO this past year for SBRTing oligomets?

I think what the other poster was trying to get at is where was RO leadership when med onc tried to make AI the preferred adjuvant tx in early stage breast in older patients? For the record, I've treated a handful of patients where they refused or didn't tolerate AI therapy.

Why does the NCCN talk about omitting rt but not AI therapy in that population? I get referrals directly from surgery, and the general sense I get is pts are less compliant with 5 years of ai and complain about it a lot more when I see them in fu (I follow many of my definitive pts long term). These pts have to get prolia in some cases because the AI is so bad for their bones
 
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