"Arizona Republicans File Bill to Punish Abortion Doctors with the Death Penalty"

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The first sentence was the point but i was also loosely trying to show prison guards aren't always good

Right, but that is an irrelevant and nebulous argument. “Prison guards aren’t always good.” So what, it’s okay for prisoners to kill them without consequences? See how that argument doesn’t really go anywhere?

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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It doesn't matter what pro lifers think. They just shouldn't force others to agree what they think and punish those who refuses to agree. Abortion bans are fundamentally authoritarian

And yet you think the death penalty should be abolished completely, forcing your beliefs on everyone else.

 

[Mad Jack]

The death penalty has absolutely zero justification for any reason. At least abortion can be argued against based on personhood but criminals don't lose personhood even after committing crimes.

Eh, I don't really see anything inherently wrong with it. Murder by the state is just par for the course in a nation of war like ours, a few state executions amount to little more than a rounding error

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Eh, I don't really see anything inherently wrong with it. Murder by the state is just par for the course in a nation of war like ours, a few state executions amount to little more than a rounding error

Not a great argument lol.

 

[Lawpy]

Right, but that is an irrelevant and nebulous argument. “Prison guards aren’t always good.” So what, it’s okay for prisoners to kill them without consequences? See how that argument doesn’t really go anywhere?

What if the murder was accident or self defense?

They were using the death penalty as an argument to kill prisoners who killed prison guards.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Your condescension in this thread is not helping your argument. I’m sorry for what you’re going through, but people who disagree with you are not stupid just because they believe something different than you.

I don't necessary think the allegory is improper. We don't estimate individual's values based on what they can become. I think personhood has both legal and emotional significance for our society, attempting to aberrate it by claiming unborn beings who we know aren't aware they're even alive isn't just problematic.

 

[Lawpy]

And yet you think the death penalty should be abolished completely, forcing your beliefs on everyone else.

That makes no sense. Forcing beliefs = enforcing laws of current practices. It's the death penalty supporters who are forcing through executions. I'm arguing against that

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Eh, I don't really see anything inherently wrong with it. Murder by the state is just par for the course in a nation of war like ours, a few state executions amount to little more than a rounding error

It's a rather expensive way of murdering someone to make us as a society feel better about thinning out the darkness which is plastered all over its walls. Instead use those millions to help victims, families, build something meaningful.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What if the murder was accident or self defense?

They were using the death penalty as an argument to kill prisoners who killed prison guards.

Self defense isn’t murder. Murder and killing aren’t the same.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That makes no sense. Forcing beliefs = enforcing laws of current practices. It's the death penalty supporters who are forcing through executions. I'm arguing against that

In a pure discussion of ideals and virtues a criminal reform system that condones execution makes things worse for us all. Some people are beyond help and likely as close to material evil as we can get outside of stories and religion. Killing them probably doesn't end it because the source is still there and we did not learn anything about it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That makes no sense. Forcing beliefs = enforcing laws of current practices. It's the death penalty supporters who are forcing through executions. I'm arguing against that

You are literally saying that we should make it illegal to execute prisoners. That forces your belief that the death penalty is wrong onto everyone who believes in it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't necessary think the allegory is improper. We don't estimate individual's values based on what they can become. I think personhood has both legal and emotional significance for our society, attempting to aberrate it by claiming unborn beings who we know aren't aware they're even alive isn't just problematic.

I’m not criticizing the content of her argument, I am saying that condescending to people who disagree with you is not helpful, and acting like any argument against yours is stupid just because it disagrees with you is not helpful or appropriate.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm pro-choice, but I can at least understand the stance of pro-lifers as they truly believe life begins at conception. From that standpoint, yes, I would also think abortion is homicide. What I can never wrap my head around, however, is being against abortions in ALL cases. For example, if a woman became pregnant through rape, why shouldn't she be allowed to choose whether to continue that pregnancy? Why is she, a person who is already here in front of you and has lived a life, less important than the one that has yet to be? Why is she reduced to basically an incubator? Conversely, if this same woman wanted to carry the pregnancy through, then that's her prerogative. In neither case should the woman be judged or forced to do something she doesn't want to do. This is why I'm pro-CHOICE.

When you believe there is an intangible soul it is difficult to disagree with life at conception. I'm not so ignorant to not recognize the moral dilemma one must go through on a personal level.
Where I draw my line is why a personal religious struggle must become my personal problem.

 

[Lawpy]

I come from a family of prison guards and law enforcement officers. The threat of death protects law enforcement officers. If not, what’s to stop a prisoner with a life sentence from killing prison guards every day? Remember, there are laws that protect prisoners from cruel and unusual punishment.

Self defense isn’t murder. Murder and killing aren’t the same.

There's a problem with the assumption

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

When you believe there is an intangible soul it is difficult to disagree with life at conception. I'm not so ignorant to not recognize the moral dilemma one must go through on a personal level.
Where I draw my line is why a personal religious struggle must become my personal problem.

Not necessarily a problem though. In Judaism, medically necessary abortion is permitted until the baby crowns. But there is a soul there.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I’m not criticizing the content of her argument, I am saying that condescending to people who disagree with you is not helpful, and acting like any argument against yours is stupid just because it disagrees with you is not helpful or appropriate.

I think she's allowed to be a bit crass given the circumstances.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There's a problem with the assumption

No there isn’t. It’s literally just definitions. Murder by legal definition requires malice aforethought and intent.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think she's allowed to be a bit crass given the circumstances.

Sorry, but no. No one in this thread caused her to have a miscarriage. It’s okay to be pissed off and sad, but we are adults. If you want to argue your position, then you can do it without implying everyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

And my wife had a miscarriage and disagreed with cray’s argument.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Not necessarily a problem though. In Judaism, medically necessary abortion is permitted until the baby crowns. But there is a soul there.

Judaism views the mother's well being more than the fetus. There are significant amounts of discussions in the Talmud about the fetus being lesser to the mother. That being said Orthodox Judaism isn't as liberal as reform which takes a very normalized approach to abortion.

That being said, Jews are not proselytizing and trying to enforce their culture and religion upon others in this country. This is a major issue within our religious dialogue in this country. One group wishes for imposing their views as fundamental law for the rest.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Judaism views the mother's well being more than the fetus. There are significant amounts of discussions in the Talmud about the fetus being lesser to the mother. That being said Orthodox Judaism isn't as liberal as reform which takes a very normalized approach to abortion.

Yes, I grew up orthodox. That’s exactly my point. Judaism obviously believes in a soul, but that doesn’t preclude us from viewing a fetus as not being on the same level as the mother.

 

[Lawpy]

You are literally saying that we should make it illegal to execute prisoners. That forces your belief that the death penalty is wrong onto everyone who believes in it.

No it's the opposite. The death penalty supporters are forcing everyone to agree that their view of executing criminals is not only correct but necessary. I'm arguing for more freedom not less. Death penalty supporters deprive the freedom to live for those who objective had personhood. The deprivation of freedoms is force that i oppose

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Sorry, but no. No one in this thread caused her to have a miscarriage. It’s okay to be pissed off and sad, but we are adults. If you want to argue your position, then you can do it without implying everyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

And my wife had a miscarriage and disagreed with cray’s argument.

If we aren't allowed to be flawed then why do we need salvation?

 

[Lawpy]

No there isn’t. It’s literally just definitions. Murder by legal definition requires malice aforethought and intent.

" The threat of death protects law enforcement officers. If not, what’s to stop a prisoner with a life sentence from killing prison guards every day?" --> assumes LEOs and guards are good and killing them = intentional = deserves death (which also assumes the criminal doesn't want to die and that death penalty is a deterrent)

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes, I grew up orthodox. That’s exactly my point. Judaism obviously believes in a soul, but that doesn’t preclude us from viewing a fetus as not being on the same level as the mother.

Depends on how you view rabbinical discourse I suppose. Religion is entertaining, usually with alcohol.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No it's the opposite. The death penalty supporters are forcing everyone to agree that their view of executing criminals is not only correct but necessary. I'm arguing for more freedom not less. Death penalty supporters deprive the freedom to live for those who objective had personhood. The deprivation of freedoms is force that i oppose

But you can choose to live in a state where there is no death penalty. You can choose not to commit a capital offense in a state that has the death penalty. You have the freedom to appeal almost endlessly (when California had the death penalty, the average age of prisoners on death row was over 50 because it took so long to get through the appeals process, and many people died of other causes—the night stalker who killed dozens of people died of lymphoma on death row).

But if you abolish it everywhere, then you take away the ability for the state to take away the right to live from someone who violated another person’s right to life.

 

[Lawpy]

But you can choose to live in a state where there is no death penalty. You can choose not to commit a capital offense in a state that has the death penalty. You have the freedom to appeal almost endlessly (when California had the death penalty, the average age of prisoners on death row was over 50 because it took so long to get through the appeals process, and many people died of other causes—the night stalker who killed dozens of people died of lymphoma on death row).

But if you abolish it everywhere, then you take away the ability for the state to take away the right to live from someone who violated another person’s right to life.

State having the right to murder someone assumes their justice system is flawless and cannot be wrong. That itself is the problem, and i'm ok with forcing them on this regard to get rid of death penalty

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

" The threat of death protects law enforcement officers. If not, what’s to stop a prisoner with a life sentence from killing prison guards every day?" --> assumes LEOs and guards are good and killing them = intentional = deserves death (which also assumes the criminal doesn't want to die and that death penalty is a deterrent)

What? This argument is nonsensical. So your argument is that because some LEOs are not good, that no prisoner who kills one should be punished?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Depends on how you view rabbinical discourse I suppose. Religion is entertaining, usually with alcohol.

Well, I personally view rabbinical law as violating the commandment to add nothing to the Torah and as a way for Pharisees to control the populous through their status as “understanding the law” and such. Some of the rabbinical laws directly contradict the Torah, but are useful for crowd control. But that’s a different discussion lol.

 

[curbsideconsult]

Murder by legal definition requires malice aforethought and intent.

If we're going to be precise, this legal definition applies only in some states and in some circumstances. For example, felony murder does not require "malice aforethought" nor intent.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If we're going to be precise, this legal definition applies only in some states and in some circumstances. For example, felony murder does not require "malice aforethought" nor intent.

Felony murder is a different charge. I was speaking specifically about murder. Yes, it varies by jurisdiction, but generally it requires intent and malice aforethought.

 

[SunBakedTrash]

Being “pro-life” is the easiest position to take since it only requires outrage. There is no requisite to open your heart, home or pocketbook to have this position. All it takes is abusing the poorest people in our society then refusing to care once the child is born. It also provides a convenient veil for those wishing to support other awful but less socially acceptable “conservative” talking points. Hypocrites.

 

[curbsideconsult]

malice aforethought

Many jurisdictions have stopped using this term because it's so difficult to prove. And "beyond reasonable doubt" is a pretty high bar (or it should be). But anyway, I suppose back to the topic at hand.

 

[Mad Jack]

Not a great argument lol.

My argument is that life isn't sacred to this nation when it is provoked. Our morals only extend so far as our bloodthirst begins. I don't care one way or another about the morality of it- personally I'd prefer they get life in prison because it's a far worse fate than death. But to say it doesn't fit with our nation's values would be incorrect.

 

[Lawpy]

What? This argument is nonsensical. So your argument is that because some LEOs are not good, that no prisoner who kills one should be punished?

They shouldn't be sentenced to death. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished.

 

[Mad Jack]

It's a rather expensive way of murdering someone to make us as a society feel better about thinning out the darkness which is plastered all over its walls. Instead use those millions to help victims, families, build something meaningful.

Hence why I said I'd rather them exiled to an island for life to make of it what they will. I'm not a fan of the death penalty on practical grounds.

Regardless, none of these penalties are befitting of a physician doing a job that has been legally protected by the Supreme Court and lower courts on countless occasions. Legislators proposing laws that are clearly unconstitutional should be held criminally liable for violating the human and civil rights of others.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Sorry, but no. No one in this thread caused her to have a miscarriage. It’s okay to be pissed off and sad, but we are adults. If you want to argue your position, then you can do it without implying everyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

And my wife had a miscarriage and disagreed with cray’s argument.

And if we're really going for broke we can take this to intersectionality extremes: # of miscarriages, how far along they were, how difficult it was to get pregnant in the first place, and so on.

Highest score gets to decide abortion law in this country.

 

[Lawpy]

Right of mother to choose always beats the right of fetus to "live". That's the one position i'll always take, force or not

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Well, I personally view rabbinical law as violating the commandment to add nothing to the Torah and as a way for Pharisees to control the populous through their status as “understanding the law” and such. Some of the rabbinical laws directly contradict the Torah, but are useful for crowd control. But that’s a different discussion lol.

Well, a lot of it is because religion adapts to the circumstances. Also because a lot of it is spirituality that needs interpretation. Either way there's a reason why most of our people see it as entirely metaphorical, cultural, and entirely as what it was intended to be a mechanism for binding a people to shared experience.

Either way, it's all good fiction. At least the Talmud as a whole offers some decent philosophy. The torah is largely a canon story that teaches cautionary tales and lofty goals.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My argument is that life isn't sacred to this nation when it is provoked. Our morals only extend so far as our bloodthirst begins. I don't care one way or another about the morality of it- personally I'd prefer they get life in prison because it's a far worse fate than death. But to say it doesn't fit with our nation's values would be incorrect.

I don’t disagree with you, but saying that life isn’t sacred to this nation isn’t a good argument for the death penalty lol.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Being “pro-life” is the easiest position to take since it only requires outrage. There is no requisite to open your heart, home or pocketbook to have this position. All it takes is abusing the poorest people in our society then refusing to care once the child is born. It also provides a convenient veil for those wishing to support other awful but less socially acceptable “conservative” talking points. Hypocrites.

You might want to distinguish a bit. It is completely possible to be pro-life and not abuse anyone.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

They shouldn't be sentenced to death. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished.

How do you punish someone for murder who is already serving life in prison?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Either way, it's all good fiction.

That might be your opinion, but it’s not for most people. You can disagree with rabbinical philosophy and Torah interpretation and still believe the Torah is the word of God.

 

[Lawpy]

How do you punish someone for murder who is already serving life in prison?

By adding another sentence, relocation to different cell/higher security prison with more guards available to restrain

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

How do you punish someone for murder who is already serving life in prison?

Criminal justice isn't about punishment. It's about reform. A paradigm of chopping off right hands leaves the world with a bunch of messy wankers.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don’t disagree with you, but saying that life isn’t sacred to this nation isn’t a good argument for the death penalty lol.

It's as good an argument as any. America's position on the value of life basically boils down to "f*** around and find out." People on death row are finding out

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That might be your opinion, but it’s not for most people. You can disagree with rabbinical philosophy and Torah interpretation and still believe the Torah is the word of God.

I never said it was the plurality of opinion, though among Jews it likely is a soft majority as most take religion as non-literal. In either case I think the key point I'm trying to make is that this is all a personal experience. It should remain so, without spilling over into our legal definitions which ideally should be strict and impartial to doctrines of faith.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

By adding another sentence, relocation to different cell/higher security prison with more guards available to restrain

So your punishment for someone who took another person’s life and who is serving a life sentence and already will never get out of prison is to tell them they’re not going to get out of prison even longer? That’s like saying infinity plus one. I’d love to see you tell the family of the prison guard that your punishment for their mom or dad’s murderer is to “add more time to their sentence.”

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Criminal justice isn't about punishment. It's about reform. A paradigm of chopping off right hands leaves the world with a bunch of messy wankers.

Can you reform a serial murderer? What about a serial child rapist? Do you believe that actions have consequences?

 

[Lawpy]

How do you punish someone for murder who is already serving life in prison?

Also if the only answer to that is death penalty, we need an overhaul of prison system

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Also if the only answer to that is death penalty, we need an overhaul of prison system

I didn’t say the only answer is the death penalty. I asked what your response would be, and your response was basically just try to not let them do it again. Not good enough for me.