Are you scared of debt you'll have? I AM!!!

[charlestweed]

100-150k a year that's not alot to live on in SoCal (unless you are married to another doctor).

My brother-in-law is a physician (internal medicine). His MD income is about the same as my sister’s DDS income but he has to work a lot harder.

Also, as you stated, she has a lower income bare-bones type of practice. While with my nicer practice I have the option to do simple treatments, I would hazard a guess that she does NOT have many chances to perform high end cosmetic and full arch/ full mouth reconstructive treatments. But that's fine, there is a niche for everybody.

My sister and my wife do a lot implant cases together. In fact, 80% of the perio procedures that my wife performs at my sister office are sinus lift, implant related bone grafts and implant placements. No, not too many full mouth cases there...about 3-4 cases a year. My wife purchases implants and parts at very cheap price because she usually buys them in large quantity. Low overhead allows my sister and my wife to charge their patients low fees and this helps increase implant case acceptance.

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[DocJL]

My brother-in-law is a physician (internal medicine). His MD income is about the same as my sister's DDS income but he has to work a lot harder.

My sister and my wife do a lot implant cases together. In fact, 80% of the perio procedures that my wife performs at my sister office are sinus lift, implant related bone grafts and implant placements. No, not too many full mouth cases there...about 3-4 cases a year. My wife purchases implants and parts at very cheap price because she usually buys them in large quantity. Low overhead allows my sister and my wife to charge their patients low fees and this helps increase implant case acceptance.

Interesting.

I am probably guilty of "judging a book by it's cover" in assuming a bare-bones practice in a less than nice part of town would not attract patients who are able to pay for that type of high end elective treatment. How much does your wife charge for a basic implant placement? when I met a few California docs at a CE course I was shocked at what low fees they were getting. about 6 years ago when I found out my specialists (OS and Perio) were getting $2500 per implant (implant only, I place the abutment and crown) I started placing them myself for $1700 a unit - now I typically do a package where I place implant, abutment and crown for $2900, I include any grafting that might be necessary, particularly for immediate placement - I do NOT do block ridge augmentations or sinus lifts - those still get referred, basically I make my specialist earn his money.

I use only the best, Astra implants (and not a knock on Nobel or Straumann, those are also "the best" lol), usually using Atlantis CAD/CAM abutments also. I use BioOss with a membrane quite often when needed, your wife will attest to the fact that these are expensive materials. Does your wife use Implant Direct or another budget implant system?

Does your sister employ a hygienist? as you know, they are very expensive employees, but a busy dentist loses too much time performing hygiene. How much does your sister's office produce a year? $300k? more?

I would bet that her numbers in comparison to mine, are just as the orthodontist I usually refer to in comparison to yours. He does over 2 million a year production, but he is hardly low overhead. large beautifully decorated state of the art office, 8 employees I think.

Again, you may take home just as much, just 2 different ways to skin that cat!

 

[zriceman]

One way for a GP to earn extra income without having to work very hard is to hire in-house specialists. This, of course, won’t be easy. It is not easy to find a hard working specialist who is willing to accept a small pay in the beginning. My sister has practiced general dentistry for 11 years (3 years as an associate and 8 years as a practice owner). She sees 3-4 patients/day on weekdays and 8-10 patients/day on Saturdays. Most of her patients are low-income and medicaid patients. So how can she survive with such low number of patients?

- She went to a state dental school and only borrowed $60k for the entire 4 years. She took many prerequisite classes at community college. She got her BS degree without having to borrow any money.
- She only spent $100k to set up a “bare bone” 1200 sf dental office. The rent is only $1300/month.
- She hires in-house ortho (me) and perio (my wife). The income generated by in-house perio and ortho is almost enough to pay the staff salaries, rent, and dental supplies.
- Because she has already paid off her student/business/car loans and 70% of her home mortage, the sharp drop in her income (due to the competition, medicaid cut, and poor economy) doesn’t seem to bother her much.

charlestweed,

I read in the latest ADA practice income survey, dentists' average income in CA is not too far off compared to other regions in the US. I thought markets in CA are usually very saturated compared to other states. Why the little difference? Could it be that the ADA survey is not all accurate?

Your sister did a great job managing her finance. I wish I could be in her situation. Oh well we new grads are just going to have to adapt to what we have.

 

[ortho lurker]

100-150k a year that's not alot to live on in SoCal (unless you are married to another doctor).

Dentists don't choose to work in California for the money as the #1 reason just as dental students don't pick ortho as the best paid specialty (which it is not): it's all about the LIFESTYLE. The warm weather, the various forms of entertainment and cuisines, and the fact that 1 in 8 Americans reside in CA means that many dental students came from there. How many CA dental students at NYU, BU, Tufts, etc. do you see board the plane and fly back on graduation day? The vast open opportunities for dentists are probably in the South and Midwest where cost of living is dirt cheap and competition will be miles apart instead of across the street or next door to you, yet dentists still flock back to CA (just like me).

 

[charlestweed]

I am probably guilty of "judging a book by it's cover" in assuming a bare-bones practice in a less than nice part of town would not attract patients who are able to pay for that type of high end elective treatment. How much does your wife charge for a basic implant placement? when I met a few California docs at a CE course I was shocked at what low fees they were getting. about 6 years ago when I found out my specialists (OS and Perio) were getting $2500 per implant (implant only, I place the abutment and crown) I started placing them myself for $1700 a unit - now I typically do a package where I place implant, abutment and crown for $2900, I include any grafting that might be necessary, particularly for immediate placement - I do NOT do block ridge augmentations or sinus lifts - those still get referred, basically I make my specialist earn his money.
I use only the best, Astra implants (and not a knock on Nobel or Straumann, those are also "the best" lol), usually using Atlantis CAD/CAM abutments also. I use BioOss with a membrane quite often when needed, your wife will attest to the fact that these are expensive materials. Does your wife use Implant Direct or another budget implant system?

My wife uses Noble Biocare and Keystone (LifeCore) implant systems. She charges $1500 per implant and offers to re-place another implant at no charge if the first one fails. If it fails again after the third attempt, she offers a full refund. She never uses the membrane and allograft materials in her practice. She only does autogenous bone and soft tissue grafts to repair the osseous defects or to augment the ridge. She doesn't believe putting allograft materials into an extraction socket and covering it with a membrane is a good way to preserve the alveolar ridge…it is best to just let the extraction socket heal by itself. For certain cases, she has to do chin/ramus block bone graft and she charges extra for doing that. For patients who don't want to wear a flipper during the osseointegration period, she charges extra for placing temporary implants to help hold the temporary crowns/bridges/dentures.

Does your sister employ a hygienist? as you know, they are very expensive employees, but a busy dentist loses too much time performing hygiene. How much does your sister's office produce a year? $300k? more?

There are not enough patients for her to hire a hygienist. She has 2 F/T employees: one in the front and one in the back. Neither of them gets paid more than $13 an hour.

I would bet that her numbers in comparison to mine, are just as the orthodontist I usually refer to in comparison to yours. He does over 2 million a year production, but he is hardly low overhead. large beautifully decorated state of the art office, 8 employees I think.

The combined gross production for all 3 of my offices is less than half as much as his. My fee is probably half as much as his. I work 11 days a month because I only have 700 active ortho patients. Three of my seven employees are full time. The part time RDAs only come to work for me on the days that I see patients. My wife and I share the F/T employees and we try to keep the overhead around 40-45%. I supplement my income by working at a dental chain 10 days/month and at my sister's office1 day/month.

 

[charlestweed]

charlestweed,

I read in the latest ADA practice income survey, dentists' average income in CA is not too far off compared to other regions in the US. I thought markets in CA are usually very saturated compared to other states. Why the little difference? Could it be that the ADA survey is not all accurate?

Your sister did a great job managing her finance. I wish I could be in her situation. Oh well we new grads are just going to have to adapt to what we have.

The markets in CA are very saturated. You will do fine if you practice outside of CA.

 

[zriceman]

The combined gross production for all 3 of my offices is less than half as much as his. My fee is probably half as much as his. I work 11 days a month because I only have 700 active ortho patients. Three of my seven employees are full time. The part time RDAs only come to work for me on the days that I see patients. My wife and I share the F/T employees and we try to keep the overhead around 40-45%. I supplement my income by working at a dental chain 10 days/month and at my sister’s office1 day/month.

wow, it definitely pays being an ortho

 

[DocJL]

Dentists don't choose to work in California for the money as the #1 reason just as dental students don't pick ortho as the best paid specialty (which it is not): it's all about the LIFESTYLE. The warm weather, the various forms of entertainment and cuisines, and the fact that 1 in 8 Americans reside in CA means that many dental students came from there. How many CA dental students at NYU, BU, Tufts, etc. do you see board the plane and fly back on graduation day? The vast open opportunities for dentists are probably in the South and Midwest where cost of living is dirt cheap and competition will be miles apart instead of across the street or next door to you, yet dentists still flock back to CA (just like me).

Agreed.

California is a beautiful state, I was stationed there a couple of times when in the military. My family and I still take lots of "mini-vacations" 4 day weekends to California (we did Disney season passes 3 years in a row...), and probably 2 of my 4 weeks of vacation a year we spend in California, both north and south. Even though I'm not a CA resident and they don't get to tax me, CA still gets probably $25k a year worth of vacation spending money from me!

The reason I don't live there is the double whammy of expensive cost of living on TOP of dentists making much less than in other places. Maybe if I can talk my wife into going to dental school and we had the "double-doctor" income I could see living there........

 

[chimm]

The combined gross production for all 3 of my offices is less than half as much as his. My fee is probably half as much as his. I work 11 days a month because I only have 700 active ortho patients. Three of my seven employees are full time. The part time RDAs only come to work for me on the days that I see patients. My wife and I share the F/T employees and we try to keep the overhead around 40-45%. I supplement my income by working at a dental chain 10 days/month and at my sister’s office 1 day/month.

Unless his days are overlapping (which I doubt), I believe that adds up to 22 days a month, which is more or less working everyday....
Plus he spends half his time working at other offices
Economy is hurtin badddd

 

[zriceman]

Unless his days are overlapping (which I doubt), I believe that adds up to 22 days a month, which is more or less working everyday....
Plus he spends half his time working at other offices
Economy is hurtin badddd

I interpreted his post as grossing close to or under 1 million annually with his 3 ortho practices working 11 days a month. I m assuming a typical ortho overhead is around 50%, its pretty financially rewarding as an ortho

 

[charlestweed]

Unless his days are overlapping (which I doubt), I believe that adds up to 22 days a month, which is more or less working everyday....
Plus he spends half his time working at other offices
Economy is hurtin badddd

Yup, 22 days/month…including 3 Saturdays + 2 Sundays a month. Well, at least doing ortho is a hundred times easier than doing general dentistry. I consider myself to be very lucky. Many rookie orthodontists want to work as many days as possible but are not able to do so because no one is hiring. Many veteran orthodontists have tried to find associate jobs to make up for the decline in income at their own private practices but have had no luck because no one is hiring.

 

[picaso]

Yup, 22 days/month…including 3 Saturdays + 2 Sundays a month. Well, at least doing ortho is a hundred times easier than doing general dentistry. I consider myself to be very lucky. Many rookie orthodontists want to work as many days as possible but are not able to do so because no one is hiring. Many veteran orthodontists have tried to find associate jobs to make up for the decline in income at their own private practices but have had no luck because no one is hiring.

Hey Charles, do you mind saying which no name ortho program did you go to ?

 

[stdmufin27]

The markets in CA are very saturated. You will do fine if you practice outside of CA.

Don't kill a lifelong Cali kid's dreams of making it back to the mother land. No really, I appreciate the help Charlestweed. You always give great advice about the state of working in that crazy state. Any advice on where I can look forward to finding work in SoCal? I'm from the Riverside area.

 

[charlestweed]

Hey Charles, do you mind saying which no name ortho program did you go to ?

Louisville.

 

[charlestweed]

Don't kill a lifelong Cali kid's dreams of making it back to the mother land. No really, I appreciate the help Charlestweed. You always give great advice about the state of working in that crazy state. Any advice on where I can look forward to finding work in SoCal? I'm from the Riverside area.

Sorry, I don’t mean to sound so pessimistic. I simply tell you what the new grad GPs, who work at the same dental chain with me, told me. Dental offices in Riverside/San Bernadino areas are usually doing better than offices in OC and LA areas. I currently work for 2 dental chain offices in Moreno Valley and Corona. I live in OC. I don’t mind driving 30-45 miles for work because I can produce more and get bigger bonus checks than my ortho colleagues who work at offices in OC and LA areas. I recently bought an ortho office in Rancho Cuccamonga.

 

[Daurang]

Open any Asian newspaper in Orange County and you'll see ads for $999 implant, $300 implant crown, $200 sc/rp, $5 prophy, free bleaching. Why be a doctor when they just gonna lower their prestige by charging less for a teeth cleaning than a manicure or a bowl of noodle?

 

[sfoksn]

Open any Asian newspaper in Orange County and you'll see ads for $999 implant, $300 implant crown, $200 sc/rp, $5 prophy, free bleaching. Why be a doctor when they just gonna lower their prestige by charging less for a teeth cleaning than a manicure or a bowl of noodle?

Doesn't ADA have some kind of regulations for those people who play with the market value of your labors?

 

[Daurang]

Doesn't ADA have some kind of regulations for those people who play with the market value of your labors?

Nope...because it'll run into antitrust or anticollusion regulation.

 

[charlestweed]

Open any Asian newspaper in Orange County and you'll see ads for $999 implant, $300 implant crown, $200 sc/rp, $5 prophy, free bleaching. Why be a doctor when they just gonna lower their prestige by charging less for a teeth cleaning than a manicure or a bowl of noodle?

Going back to the original topic of the debt after graduation. If you have low (or zero) student loan debt, you can do very well even when you charge such low fees. Owning such low-fee practice is still a lot better than working non-stop for 8 hours at chain clinics and getting paid $350-450/day.

What about setting up a beautiful high tech office so you can charge more? The problem is there have already been too many of these high tech offices everywhere. And there are not enough rich patients who can afford expensive dental care.

Daurang, I am sure you know very well that these ads are used to get the patients to come to their dental practices. Nobody does a filling for $5 or bleaching for free.

 

[Simple Jack]

Open any Asian newspaper in Orange County and you'll see ads for $999 implant, $300 implant crown, $200 sc/rp, $5 prophy, free bleaching. Why be a doctor when they just gonna lower their prestige by charging less for a teeth cleaning than a manicure or a bowl of noodle?

love your use of avatar for emphasis hilarious i need to go get me a bowl of noodle

 

[DrReo]

Western Dental always tries to sell students their positions. "Our lowest payed dentist makes 100k. With the most, being a general dentist limited to oral surgery, who nets $1,000,000." Students eyes' light up!

Going back to the original topic of the debt after graduation. If you have low (or zero) student loan debt, you can do very well even when you charge such low fees. Owning such low-fee practice is still a lot better than working non-stop for 8 hours at chain clinics and getting paid $350-450/day.

What about setting up a beautiful high tech office so you can charge more? The problem is there have already been too many of these high tech offices everywhere. And there are not enough rich patients who can afford expensive dental care.

Daurang, I am sure you know very well that these ads are used to get the patients to come to their dental practices. Nobody does a filling for $5 or bleaching for free.

 

[Daurang]

Daurang, I am sure you know very well that these ads are used to get the patients to come to their dental practices. Nobody does a filling for $5 or bleaching for free.

My brother's friend said he got a couple composite fillings in LA for $20 each. My patient told me she took her kid to an office in OC that charged her $5 for a cleaning.

 

[diplo123]

Western Dental always tries to sell students their positions. "Our lowest payed dentist makes 100k. With the most, being a general dentist limited to oral surgery, who nets $1,000,000." Students eyes' light up!

Hello Dr. Charlestweed,
What's the deal with Western Dental? Is it a good chain to work for?

 

[charlestweed]

My brother's friend said he got a couple composite fillings in LA for $20 each. My patient told me she took her kid to an office in OC that charged her $5 for a cleaning.

The exam and x ray fees at this dental office are probably high enough to make up for these cheap composite fillings. The $5 prophy was probably performed by an RDA with a coronal polishing license.

My sister's office is located in the same area. She sees the same kind of patients (mostly Asians). She charges way more than $20 a filling. Her practice would go bankrupt if the majority of her competitors in the area charge $20 a filling. The fees are low in OC but not ridiculously low like the ones you mentioned above.

 

[charlestweed]

Hello Dr. Charlestweed,
What's the deal with Western Dental? Is it a good chain to work for?

None of the chains in CA is good to work for. The assistants (especially the ones at Western Dental) are very slow and lazy because they don’t get paid very well. And you, the doctor, can’t fire them. You can’t just refer the crying kids to pedo. They only let you refer to pedo after 3 attempts. You have to work through lunch because if you don’t, you will stay behind and go home late. If you are good, they promote you to become a managing dentist. If you are a managing dentist, you get to do all the highly paid procedures and get paid 3-4 times more than the regular associate dentists. Some managing GPs earn very good bonuses and make more than us, associate orthodontists.

One advantage of working for a dental chain is you earn a stable income because dental chain has a lot of patients. Some dental chains pay for your health and malpractice insurances. Most private practices don’t offer benefits. The problem with working for a senior doctor at a private practice is the senior doctor may cut your work days when there are not enough patients.

Many of my GP friends told me that Pacific Dental Services (PDS) is the best dental chain to work for….no Saturdays (or only 1-2 Saturdays a month), good bonus and salary. It is, however, very hard for new grads get a job there because they prefer dentists with 2-3 years of experiences.

 

[jirotrom]

probably the only time you'll see me brag on sdn...

Glad i'm a Texan!

 

[Daurang]

probably the only time you'll see me brag on sdn...Glad i'm a Texan!

Not for long. They'll be moving to your state and turn it into another socialist haven, too.

 

[jirotrom]

Not for long. They'll be moving to your state and turn it into another socialist haven, too.

I was talking more about my debt coming out of school lol

 

[DrReo]

Not for long. They'll be moving to your state and turn it into another socialist haven, too.

Houston has been the first to go. Thanks Parker.

 

[Bitters]

I am coming to the conclusion that the dream may be dead. I finished dental school in 2002 and oral surgery in 08. I was just looking at the tuition where I went to school, its projected to be over 400,000. If you consider going to a private school and want to specialize, dear god the financials look terrible.
I understand that interest will no longer be deferred while in school/residency. You dont have to pay it back but it still accumulates.

Assume 4 year private @ 100k yr. at todays interest rate of 6.8.(thats being generous because you'll most likely take out higher interest rates as well) You're looking at around 70,000 in interest just when you graduate.

Graduation day owe approx 470,000. Then you decide to specialize. Take os for example another six yrs of interest. your not paying it back during residency. Add another 30k per year in interest were now up to around 600,000. The beautiful part is that you'll get to add more loans for med school tuition if you go that route assume private another 200k. Conservatively you'll owe aroun 800k at graduation day.

That gives you a loan payment of approx 5000 per month. Starting salaries today are good but that takes a bite.

I see it extremely difficult for current ds students with these numbers. I look at my expenses and while doable 5k would cut into things dramatically. ie retirement savings, type of housing. Oh and that is over a thirty year repayment schedule. (my math skills aren't great I make no illusions about the accuracy of these calculations)

 

[jirotrom]

Houston has been the first to go. Thanks Parker.

explain please

 

[whodat4life]

I am coming to the conclusion that the dream may be dead. I finished dental school in 2002 and oral surgery in 08. I was just looking at the tuition where I went to school, its projected to be over 400,000. If you consider going to a private school and want to specialize, dear god the financials look terrible.
I understand that interest will no longer be deferred while in school/residency. You dont have to pay it back but it still accumulates.

Assume 4 year private @ 100k yr. at todays interest rate of 6.8.(thats being generous because you'll most likely take out higher interest rates as well) You're looking at around 70,000 in interest just when you graduate.

Graduation day owe approx 470,000. Then you decide to specialize. Take os for example another six yrs of interest. your not paying it back during residency. Add another 30k per year in interest were now up to around 600,000. The beautiful part is that you'll get to add more loans for med school tuition if you go that route assume private another 200k. Conservatively you'll owe aroun 800k at graduation day.

That gives you a loan payment of approx 5000 per month. Starting salaries today are good but that takes a bite.

I see it extremely difficult for current ds students with these numbers. I look at my expenses and while doable 5k would cut into things dramatically. ie retirement savings, type of housing. Oh and that is over a thirty year repayment schedule. (my math skills aren't great I make no illusions about the accuracy of these calculations)

Wow..that's very scary for us. It's almost to the point to where it may no longer be worth it. I mean, I want to be a dentist so badly (as most do)...but at some point, as you've mentioned, it becomes financially ignorant to take on that much debt. Thank the good Lord above DS tuition at my home school is only 16k per year! That will help a little, I guess.

 

[yappy]

That will help a little, I guess.

How about a lot.

 

[jay47]

I am coming to the conclusion that the dream may be dead. I finished dental school in 2002 and oral surgery in 08. I was just looking at the tuition where I went to school, its projected to be over 400,000. If you consider going to a private school and want to specialize, dear god the financials look terrible.
I understand that interest will no longer be deferred while in school/residency. You dont have to pay it back but it still accumulates.

Assume 4 year private @ 100k yr. at todays interest rate of 6.8.(thats being generous because you'll most likely take out higher interest rates as well) You're looking at around 70,000 in interest just when you graduate.

Graduation day owe approx 470,000. Then you decide to specialize. Take os for example another six yrs of interest. your not paying it back during residency. Add another 30k per year in interest were now up to around 600,000. The beautiful part is that you'll get to add more loans for med school tuition if you go that route assume private another 200k. Conservatively you'll owe aroun 800k at graduation day.

That gives you a loan payment of approx 5000 per month. Starting salaries today are good but that takes a bite.

I see it extremely difficult for current ds students with these numbers. I look at my expenses and while doable 5k would cut into things dramatically. ie retirement savings, type of housing. Oh and that is over a thirty year repayment schedule. (my math skills aren't great I make no illusions about the accuracy of these calculations)

I don't understand some of these people that are attending private dental schools taking on so much debt. It really is ridiculous. I can't understand why anyone would take on a half million dollars in debt for a profession that averages $150K a year. If they would just run through the numbers, they would see that it is just not financially responsible. When I taught the DAT before, I told everyone that I knew to go to the cheapest dental school they could find. I feel truly sorry for folks in NY and Cali- things are completely out of hand there with tuition AND market saturation.

 

[zriceman]

I don't understand some of these people that are attending private dental schools taking on so much debt. It really is ridiculous. I can't understand why anyone would take on a half million dollars in debt for a profession that averages $150K a year. If they would just run through the numbers, they would see that it is just not financially responsible. When I taught the DAT before, I told everyone that I knew to go to the cheapest dental school they could find. I feel truly sorry for folks in NY and Cali- things are completely out of hand there with tuition AND market saturation.

In my case with my BS in Bio and having an income of 30K per year, it was very very difficult for me to give up my only acceptance to a private dental school. I thought about applying for a second cycle, but i figured i would need to get a Masters to improve my app, which meant more money spent.

So as you can see in my case its either graduating as dentist with lots of debt vs earning 30K a year vs spend $$ to master's and apply and hope to gain acceptance to state school.

Oh yeah, and i had a dirty little academic dishonesty incident on my application.

 

[pogue]

I'll be doing loan repayment working in the boonies. Not worried here.

 

[Daurang]

Wow..that's very scary for us. It's almost to the point to where it may no longer be worth it. I mean, I want to be a dentist so badly (as most do)...but at some point, as you've mentioned, it becomes financially ignorant to take on that much debt.

Why the hell did I go to grad School?

Union bus driver in WI earns $159,000 (not including benefits).
Garbage collector in NY earns $144,000 (not inluding benefits).
Toll booth collectors in MA earns $95,000 (not including benefits).
Firemen in NV earns $200,000 (not including benefits).
Police officer (my friend bragged) earns $150K in CA doing nothing.

 

[7 Iron]

Why the hell did I go to grad School?

Union bus driver in WI earns $159,000 (not including benefits).
Garbage collector in NY earns $144,000 (not inluding benefits).
Toll booth collectors in MA earns $95,000 (not including benefits).
Firemen in NV earns $200,000 (not including benefits).
Police officer (my friend bragged) earns $150K in CA doing nothing.

Those are all public unionized positions. In Ohio and Wisconsin (at least), state governments are working to weaken unions, slash salaries and benefits for these types of positions. Considering the economic climate and the multi-billion dollar budget shortfalls in many states, I expect this trend to continue. Also, the numbers you cite are probably for people in the top 0.01% of those jobs. Most garbage collectors can't possibly earn $144k a year. I suppose he does live in New York though where everything is inflated 4x relative to places in the Midwest.

 

[New2Philly]

Why the hell did I go to grad School?

Union bus driver in WI earns $159,000 (not including benefits).
Garbage collector in NY earns $144,000 (not inluding benefits).
Toll booth collectors in MA earns $95,000 (not including benefits).
Firemen in NV earns $200,000 (not including benefits).
Police officer (my friend bragged) earns $150K in CA doing nothing.

Those are the overtime gunners. I have family that works for the state of CA, and if someone is willing to work every waking hour, having a 6 figure income is doable; but not for very long, those hours take their toll.

 

[OG1]

Why the hell did I go to grad School?

Union bus driver in WI earns $159,000 (not including benefits) and hates his life and job.
Garbage collector in NY earns $144,000 (not inluding benefits) and hates his life and job.
Toll booth collectors in MA earns $95,000 (not including benefits) and hate their lives and jobs.
Firemen in NV earns $200,000 (not including benefits).
Police officer (my friend bragged) earns $150K in CA doing nothing.

Fixed a couple of those for ya. I also like that in dentistry I have a very low risk of third degree burns or getting shot at.

 

[jay47]

Why the hell did I go to grad School?

Union bus driver in WI earns $159,000 (not including benefits).
Garbage collector in NY earns $144,000 (not inluding benefits).
Toll booth collectors in MA earns $95,000 (not including benefits).
Firemen in NV earns $200,000 (not including benefits).
Police officer (my friend bragged) earns $150K in CA doing nothing.

Did anyone watch the news lately!!??!?!?!?!?!

Why the hell do you think states in those areas are WAY WAY WAY over budget? Didn't Wisconsin just cut union bargaining rights to balance the budget? I don't understand how things come to this...

It's the EXACT same thing that is happening in govt that is happening to dental students. You spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, and say, "I'll pay it back later because I'll be making more money then [aka- economy will recover, etc...]" but coming out of dental school with $500,000 in debt is NOT A FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE DECISION. Perhaps it may be your only other option besides a $30,000 a year job, but it's just not smart if you ask me (no offense).

 

[DocJL]

Did anyone watch the news lately!!??!?!?!?!?!

Why the hell do you think states in those areas are WAY WAY WAY over budget? Didn't Wisconsin just cut union bargaining rights to balance the budget? I don't understand how things come to this...

It's the EXACT same thing that is happening in govt that is happening to dental students. You spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, and say, "I'll pay it back later because I'll be making more money then [aka- economy will recover, etc...]" but coming out of dental school with $500,000 in debt is NOT A FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE DECISION. Perhaps it may be your only other option besides a $30,000 a year job, but it's just not smart if you ask me (no offense).

Good post. Hopefully people are waking up to the organized theft that government is putting over on us.

And think about this, after busting your ***** for 8+years to become a dentist, giving up years of other potential income, and amassing hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, Uncle Sam will be first in line to take a large chunk out of your paycheck.

And once you've picked up some speed and skills, and are putting in long hours, you WILL make more than $250k, which will then make you one of the "rich people" that it is now popular to demonize. And despite the fact that you will be making loan payments larger than most people's house payment, and be decades of hard work from financial independance, you will be looked apon as an "ATM" by those who want to tax you and take an even larger bite out of what you take home.

 

[yappy]

The financial situation in WI was started with massive cuts in tax revinues. The jobs listed above are exceptions, not the rule. On average a gov employee will make less than someone with the same education and expeience in the privite sector. Also, demands were going to be meet in terms of cuts in pay; however, it was never about that. It was about busting unions so terms were not accepted. Mean while record profits are being made by large privite firms and the middle class is on its way out for good.

Anyways, I agree that 500k for dental school will put someone back. But if I had the choice between making 30K and a 500k dental education... I would pick the education no problem. Demand side all the way - supply side is for suckers: unless you're old money.

DocJL - I see your aurement about compensation and being looked at as a source for taxes. If the hypothetical 250+ individual was self made I would agree with you. But success is very arbitrary and pay is a poor indicator of the value across diciplines. There are those who "bust ass" their whole lives creating alot of value that dont earn nearly as much. Just something to think about.

Did anyone watch the news lately!!??!?!?!?!?!

Why the hell do you think states in those areas are WAY WAY WAY over budget? Didn't Wisconsin just cut union bargaining rights to balance the budget? I don't understand how things come to this...

It's the EXACT same thing that is happening in govt that is happening to dental students. You spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, and say, "I'll pay it back later because I'll be making more money then [aka- economy will recover, etc...]" but coming out of dental school with $500,000 in debt is NOT A FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE DECISION. Perhaps it may be your only other option besides a $30,000 a year job, but it's just not smart if you ask me (no offense).

 

[DocJL]

The financial situation in WI was started with massive cuts in tax revinues. The jobs listed above are exceptions, not the rule. On average a gov employee will make less than someone with the same education and expeience in the privite sector. Also, demands were going to be meet in terms of cuts in pay; however, it was never about that. It was about busting unions so terms were not accepted. Mean while record profits are being made by large privite firms and the middle class is on its way out for good.

Anyways, I agree that 500k for dental school will put someone back. But if I had the choice between making 30K and a 500k dental education... I would pick the education no problem. Demand side all the way - supply side is for suckers: unless you're old money.

DocJL - I see your aurement about compensation and being looked at as a source for taxes. If the hypothetical 250+ individual was self made I would agree with you. But success is very arbitrary and pay is a poor indicator of the value across diciplines. There are those who "bust ass" their whole lives creating alot of value that dont earn nearly as much. Just something to think about.

I'm not following you yappy, can u explain what you mean?

You don't think somebody who is both smart enough and hard working enough, and busts their ass to get into and to get through dental school, then starts a practice, and puts in years of work to make it successful is "self-made"?

And I'm not following your statement about success being very arbitrary, at least not in the confines of discussing becoming a professional.

BTW - do a little more research, government employees are compensated considerably MORE than individuals in the private sector, once their bloated benefits packages and retirement packages are factored into the equation. Nobody in the private sector gets a lifetime pension after as little as 20 years of service anymore, 401k's are the norm.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm

http://reason.org/news/show/public-sector-private-sector-salary

http://www.jeffjacoby.com/6872/public-sector-pay-private-sector-backlash

 

[Daurang]

The financial situation in WI was started with massive cuts in tax revinues. The jobs listed above are exceptions, not the rule. On average a gov employee will make less than someone with the same education and expeience in the privite sector.

Federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in comparison to $60,046 for the private sector in 2008, the most recent data available. These salary figures do not include health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis. When all jobs are considered, state and local public-sector workers today earn, on average, $14 more per hour in total compensation (wages and benefits) than their private-sector counterparts.

You know you'll be working for a long time to pay for many of them that get to retire with guarantee pension and disability after 20 years right? You know they get every balogney holiday (Patriot Day, Bunker Hill Day, Evacuation Day, 9/11 Day, etc.) under the sun that you're paying for right?

 

[yappy]

Thank you for the links DocJL. I read through them and admit that when they compaired public vs privite, the public had greater average compensation. Though one article did say:

"As the report notes, it is difficult to do a real "apples-to-apples" comparison of public and private sector compensation because public sector job descriptions and duties may be very different from those in the private sector, and vice versa, so oftentimes there are no good positions to compare to in the other sector."

I think this is key. It's hard to average all the lower income occupations like walmart/mcdonalds type jobs in with the privite sector average and compair this average with public jobs which typically require alot more experience and education and state one is overpaid. Even lower paid jobs like military service allows good health benfits and a livable wage. I would argue that the reason the average public employee appears to make more, not controlling for education or experience, is because the quality of jobs are higher in public service (on average) and thus require more talent (on average).

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/wage-penalty-state-local-gov-employees/

daurange - I hope this addressed your comments as well. Your post was informative.

 

[yappy]

Doc, your second question is difficult for me to explain. I agree with you that the person you described has worked very hard. But put simply - I'm sure they received alot of help along the way. I didn't always used to think this way. For it me it used to be black and white - you worked hard you do well, you dont you fail. But as I saw different parts of the US & world (middle east) my view changed. I noticed that I was incredibly lucky and the success I would encounter in my life was just as much a product of my hard work as it was my "situation" that was selected for independent of any work on my part.

edit: that's just my opinion and you may think it's BS. Sorry if my initial post came across as arrogent or preachy.

I'm not following you yappy, can u explain what you mean?

You don't think somebody who is both smart enough and hard working enough, and busts their ass to get into and to get through dental school, then starts a practice, and puts in years of work to make it successful is "self-made"?

And I'm not following your statement about success being very arbitrary, at least not in the confines of discussing becoming a professional.

 

[DocJL]

Thank you for the links DocJL. I read through them and admit that when they compaired public vs privite, the public had greater average compensation. Though one article did say:

"As the report notes, it is difficult to do a real "apples-to-apples" comparison of public and private sector compensation because public sector job descriptions and duties may be very different from those in the private sector, and vice versa, so oftentimes there are no good positions to compare to in the other sector."

I think this is key. It's hard to average all the lower income occupations like walmart/mcdonalds type jobs in with the privite sector average and compair this average with public jobs which typically require alot more experience and education and state one is overpaid. Even lower paid jobs like military service allows good health benfits and a livable wage. I would argue that the reason the average public employee appears to make more, not controlling for education or experience, is because the quality of jobs are higher in public service (on average) and thus require more talent (on average).

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/wage-penalty-state-local-gov-employees/

daurange - I hope this addressed your comments as well. Your post was informative.

Yappy, thanks for taking the time to look into those links, I tried to post links from different sources, including mainstream sources (NOBODY could argue that USAToday, for example, was a "conservative" organization).

However, were you aware that the Center for Economic and Policy Research, which you linked to, is a well known progressive liberal think tank that makes no effort to hide it's political affiliation?

http://think-tanks.findthebest.com/directory/t/Liberal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Economic_and_Policy_Research

Although a bit off topic here, I will point out that I absolutely believe that labor unions have a part in our society, in the PRIVATE sector, but NOT in the public sector. The reason is as simple as human nature. In the private sector, if a business cannot meet the demands of it's respective labor union, the business will fail and be replaced by a more efficient one. In the PUBLIC sector however, the ones doing the "bargaining" and writing the contracts with the public workers unions are our elected officials, who quite frankly have no incentive to save the public money. Quite the contrary, they are "beholden to" the powerful labor unions, which deliver thousands of votes to their candidates, right on cue. One of my employees is married to a union member, before the last election she brought in a piece of paper from his union, that he received, "suggesting" exactly which candidate to vote for on every race in the election.

In Nevada, for instance, Public unions are breaking the bank with exhorbitant salaries and retirements. A firefighter, by gaming the system with overtime and "sick pay", can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year - on a high school education. Look at this link, it is public information on the actual salaries and benefits paid to public employees. The numbers are astounding. On top of these huge salaries, they are able to retire in their forties with a 6 figure pension for the rest of their lives, as their pension is based on their highest pay the last 3 years of service.

http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/2009/clark/

 

[DocJL]

Doc, your second question is difficult for me to explain. I agree with you that the person you described has worked very hard. But put simply - I'm sure they received alot of help along the way. I didn't always used to think this way. For it me it used to be black and white - you worked hard you do well, you dont you fail. But as I saw different parts of the US & world (middle east) my view changed. I noticed that I was incredibly lucky and the success I would encounter in my life was just as much a product of my hard work as it was my "situation" that was selected for independent of any work on my part.

edit: that's just my opinion and you may think it's BS. Sorry if my initial post came across as arrogent or preachy.

This still doesn't make sense to me. Nobody is arguing that the "trust fund babies" of the world earned their standard of living. And I will grant you that as US citizens we are very fortunate, and have opportunities that people in most of the rest of the world will never have, but it doesn't change the basic fact that IF you are smart, and IF you apply yourself and work hard, you WILL do better than most. Certainly luck is a factor, as is being born to a family of even the upper middle class, but in no other country does one have the opportunity to make it or not, based on their own choices, hard work and drive, than we do here.

And I would still argue that anybody who has earned either a DDS or MD or similar degree, then goes out and opens a practice and works hard for several years, has most assuredly earned whatever degree of success they ultimately obtain. Is it easier if your dad is a dentist and you take over his practice? certainly. But it doesn't change the fact that you made it into, and through, professional school.

And as a practicing dentist, I will tell you, I earn every dollar I make the hard way, with the labor of my own hands. I have a friend who owns a tow truck company, and makes more than me, and guess what? he works maybe 10 hours a week, as now that his business is established, it makes money for him. With some exceptions, dentistry is largely a procedural business, and you have to work for every cent.

 

[redchesus]

Doc, your second question is difficult for me to explain. I agree with you that the person you described has worked very hard. But put simply - I'm sure they received alot of help along the way. I didn't always used to think this way. For it me it used to be black and white - you worked hard you do well, you dont you fail. But as I saw different parts of the US & world (middle east) my view changed. I noticed that I was incredibly lucky and the success I would encounter in my life was just as much a product of my hard work as it was my "situation" that was selected for independent of any work on my part.

edit: that's just my opinion and you may think it's BS. Sorry if my initial post came across as arrogent or preachy.

Interesting post, yappy, I don't think it's total BS because there's a whole line of social contract theory talking about this ("the veil of ignorance"). It basically says that, for true justice, people need to put on a "veil of ignorance," evaluate things from a perspective which is irrespective of your own life, and realize that where you start in the "race" matters a lot.

A lot of people over-appreciate how much "hard work" they actually put out. Getting a Bachelor's nowadays isn't that hard to be honest, my university puts out about 30,000 of them every year (many of them probably have a minor in drinking). And if you're from an upper middle class family, that's kind of been your path since birth. But those same people will assume that people WITHOUT a Bachelor's are somehow not working hard, without realizing the climb to go to college (financial or otherwise) is A LOT steeper for some people (and a lot don't make it). That's basically one modern application of that theory.

Anyway, I think it resonates for people like you, who have seen things outside of your normal environment, because when you see it, you realize that people's starting places in life vary wildly and it's essentially a lottery. Being born in the First World alone puts you in the top 10% in terms of a head start on life. Some children don't even have a chance. You have to question whether if you were in their place (whether it means being born in the Middle East, or maybe being born to a single mother in the projects), would all your "hard work" matter? Or if they were in your place, they wouldn't be even further along than you are.

But most people don't care, they just say, "that sucks, but I can't help what I was born into" ... which is totally ironic because that's exactly what the theory says.