Are DO's still virtually guaranteed to get residencies?

[PatchAdams25]

If you want to be a cardiologist, is going IM --> cardiology a viable option as a DO??

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[DrMikeP]

If you want to be a cardiologist, is going IM --> cardiology a viable option as a DO??

Viable for DO yes, a bit easier with MD, but then it's not exactly something a low performing MD will walk into either.

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[PatchAdams25]

Viable for DO yes, a bit easier with MD, but then it's not exactly something a low performing MD will walk into either.

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What are other competitive IM specialties that DO's tend to go to?

 

[Mad Jack]

Can you define 'majorly wrong'?

The only people I know that have had trouble matching had >2 board failures or only applied narrowly to competitive specialties.

 

[IslandStyle808]

What are other competitive IM specialties that DO's tend to go to?

Well it is a matter of how competitive the specialty is, not so much a matter of MD or DO? The match rate into fellowship is lower of DOs not because of their degree, but where they do their training. The better and well known the residency program, the greater it helps one's chances of getting into a fellowship. If you want to match into cardiology, gastroenterology, heme/oncology; then the best launching pad would be to match into a mid-tier academic residency. So one has to do well in DO school first to match into a good residency. This then leads into a good fellowship, as long as one does well in residency.

 

[Mad Jack]

What are other competitive IM specialties that DO's tend to go to?

The hardest one as a DO is heme/onc but even that is doable. Everything else, you can do if you're flexible.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well it is a matter of how competitive the specialty is, not so much a matter of MD or DO? The match rate into fellowship is lower of DOs not because of their degree, but where they do their training. The better and well known the residency program, the greater it helps one's chances of getting into a fellowship. If you want to match into cardiology, gastroenterology, heme/oncology; then the best launching pad would be to match into a mid-tier academic residency. So one has to do well in DO school first to match into a good residency. This then leads into a good fellowship, as long as one does well in residency.

Even a low-tier academic residency can get you into a community program in a competitive specialty. Hell, even a high tier community program can. The simple fact is, getting into a competitive subspecialty as a DO is very doable as long as you score decent on your USMLE and match at least a decent university affiliated community program.

 

[PatchAdams25]

The hardest one as a DO is heme/onc but even that is doable. Everything else, you can do if you're flexible.

"flexible" you mean location you get trained/match in?

 

[Mad Jack]

"flexible" you mean location you get trained/match in?

Yep.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Even a low-tier academic residency can get you into a community program in a competitive specialty. Hell, even a high tier community program can. The simple fact is, getting into a competitive subspecialty as a DO is very doable as long as you score decent on your USMLE and match at least a decent university affiliated community program.

I totally agree. In the end, the better the residency the better your chances.

 

[yeasureyoubetcha]

Yes, but I suspect that after 2020, it may be much more limited to Primary Care.


Time will tell

Change of heart Goro? Any new info you've heard?

From what I've heard (unverified), the agreement stipulated that MDs would be able to apply to the newly ACGME accredited (formerly AOA spots) and that an M.D. would be required on the committee or as the residency PD. In exchange, ACGME would open up more Fellowships to DOs. Would there be any reason to assume that ACGME spots that were previously DO friendly have changed their DO friendly position? Are there any other pertinent details I'm missing or is any of this incorrect?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

and that an M.D. would be required on the committee or as the residency PD

This isn't true. The only specialty that is holding out is neurosurgery I believe. And no, a place that is already DO friendly will most likely remain DO friendly. There is no reason to believe the merger will change that.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Haven't the other 1000 threads that are identical to this one solved the "where DOs can match" question already?


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[AnatomyGrey12]

Haven't the other 1000 threads that are identical to this one solved the "where DOs can match" question already?


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But OP is special and this one is different. We are here to find the truth.

 

[DrMikeP]

This isn't true. The only specialty that is holding out is neurosurgery I believe. And no, a place that is already DO friendly will most likely remain DO friendly. There is no reason to believe the merger will change that.

My DO friendly hospital will remain DO friendly and many of the hospitals I've spoken with will remain so as well.

This topic has been beaten to death in a dozen other threads and ultimately we are all guessing how it will turn out in years to come. Not one single person knows for sure, so it's all speculation.

What we know is that those who do the best currently have a shot at the most competitive residencies. I see nothing right now that suggests it will change in the near future.

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[DrMikeP]

This isn't true. The only specialty that is holding out is neurosurgery I believe. And no, a place that is already DO friendly will most likely remain DO friendly. There is no reason to believe the merger will change that.

I know a DO neurosurgeon who is a Nova grad, so many things are possible.

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[DetectiveAlonzo]

Just close this thread already. OP use the search function.. or google something along the lines of "DO residency SDN" and read.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I know a DO neurosurgeon who is a Nova grad, so many things are possible.

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He's referring to AOA PDs needing to be ABMS certified. The ACGME was proposing this during the initial integration of residencies. However, proposal was dropped for all fields except neurosurgery. Neurosurgery still requires that former AOA residencies need to have a PD or co-PD be ABMS certified.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I can't believe I'm going to a DO school. I was going into Derm, but now I just hope I can match into a van down by the river!


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[Goro]

Pure speculation. And y'know, just as it will take time for DO-unfriendly PDs to die off, so it will take time for Do-protection [former] AOA PDs to die off as well. We're in the start of a decades long process. Look how different things are in terms of MD and post-graduate training now vs 40, 50, 60 years ago!

I wonder if this is a case of "be careful what you ask for, because you might get it". I don't think the AOA, when it started it's build more DO schools era (starting in the 1990s) anticipated that by pumping out more DOs, that they'd be forced into ACGME, and become, well, more MD-like, in terms of graduate training.

The "we're special and unique" days are long over.

Change of heart Goro? Any new info you've heard?

From what I've heard (unverified), the agreement stipulated that MDs would be able to apply to the newly ACGME accredited (formerly AOA spots) and that an M.D. would be required on the committee or as the residency PD. In exchange, ACGME would open up more Fellowships to DOs. Would there be any reason to assume that ACGME spots that were previously DO friendly have changed their DO friendly position? Are there any other pertinent details I'm missing or is any of this incorrect?

 

[Mad Jack]

This isn't true. The only specialty that is holding out is neurosurgery I believe. And no, a place that is already DO friendly will most likely remain DO friendly. There is no reason to believe the merger will change that.

The thing is, even if we lose half of the spots that used to all be guaranteed to DOs in competitive specialties because places start taking MDs but remain open to DOs, we're still losing half of our spots in those specialties. And that's a best-case scenario. There certainly won't be a bunch of places still only taking DOs.

 

[Mad Jack]

I know a DO neurosurgeon who is a Nova grad, so many things are possible.

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I would almost guarantee that he was an AOA grad, and AOA programs will no longer exist. What was possible and what is possible post-2020 are going to be very different. It's like people saying, "Oh, I know a Carib student that matched ortho/derm/ophtho back in 2000!" The times, they are a' changin'.

 

[mathnerd88]

Everyone is being unnecessarily hard on each other about DO vs. MD matching.

The honest truth is, DO stats are lower than that of MD stats, on average. The majority of DO students still will go into the less competitive residencies regardless. The people that will really suffer are those who do extremely well in DO school and score well on the boards.

 

[Mad Jack]

Everyone is being unnecessarily hard on each other about DO vs. MD matching.

The honest truth is, DO stats are lower than that of MD stats, on average. The majority of DO students still will go into the less competitive residencies regardless. The people that will really suffer are those who do extremely well in DO school and score well on the boards.

It isn't just about the boards. There are a good number of programs that simply do not interview DOs, and if they do, you have to go above and beyond your MD counterparts. There is a particular member here that did very well on his boards but was forced into a less-than-desirable program in his chosen field because all of the decent ones didn't interview DOs, period. Of the university programs in my two fields of choice within my state, fully half do not interview DOs at all, ever. My app wouldn't see the light of day if I got a 260 and had seven pubs.

Let's not pretend that DOs won't match, but let's also not pretend that there aren't significant barriers in certain fields and programs that put DOs at a substantial disadvantage within the match.

 

[mathnerd88]

It isn't just about the boards. There are a good number of programs that simply do not interview DOs, and if they do, you have to go above and beyond your MD counterparts. There is a particular member here that did very well on his boards but was forced into a less-than-desirable program in his chosen field because all of the decent ones didn't interview DOs, period. Of the university programs in my two fields of choice within my state, fully half do not interview DOs at all, ever. My app wouldn't see the light of day if I got a 260 and had seven pubs.

Let's not pretend that DOs won't match, but let's also not pretend that there aren't significant barriers in certain fields and programs that put DOs at a substantial disadvantage within the match.

Oh I agree. But people who want to go into dermatology or whatever competitive specialty should be more realistic about their chances in a DO school.

If they don't have the stats to go to MD, the chances of them scoring even better than MDs on the boards isn't high to begin with. They're all difficult, even for MDs.

People keep forgetting that this is all relative. Even a DO student at an MD school is likely not to be top of the MD class to get into these competitive specialties anyways.

So yeah, a DO student has to work harder than MD to get into a good residency program, but let's not forget that MDs generally will score better than DOs.

The only unfair advantage I see is for those DO students who are at the very top of their class who get turned away, which is likely like 1% of us sdners.

 

[kelminak]

Holy **** are you guys serious in this thread? This is literally the exact same conversation in every other AOA merger/DOvsMD thread, everyone has acknowledge that's the case, then continued to say the same stuff anyway?

 

[PatchAdams25]

I think the storm troopers should keep beating that horse, he doesn't look quite finished yet....

 

[Mad Jack]

Oh I agree. But people who want to go into dermatology or whatever competitive specialty should be more realistic about their chances in a DO school.

If they don't have the stats to go to MD, the chances of them scoring even better than MDs on the boards isn't high to begin with. They're all difficult, even for MDs.

People keep forgetting that this is all relative. Even a DO student at an MD school is likely not to be top of the MD class to get into these competitive specialties anyways.

So yeah, a DO student has to work harder than MD to get into a good residency program, but let's not forget that MDs generally will score better than DOs.

The only unfair advantage I see is for those DO students who are at the very top of their class who get turned away, which is likely like 1% of us sdners.

And I'm one of those 1%ers that had great stats (LizzyM 73, just didn't apply MD), hence why I like to make sure that people know that your options are damn well limited. We'll see how well I do on the boards, but I'm currently hoping (realistically given my current Kaplan/UWorld performance) for a 240+, even though that same 240 isn't going to carry me anywhere near where it would have if I'd have gone MD.

 

[PatchAdams25]

And I'm one of those 1%ers that had great stats (LizzyM 73, just didn't apply MD), hence why I like to make sure that people know that your options are damn well limited. We'll see how well I do on the boards, but I'm currently hoping (realistically given my current Kaplan/UWorld performance) for a 240+, even though that same 240 isn't going to carry me anywhere near where it would have if I'd have gone MD.

Why with a Lizzy M 73 did you go DO? I sense some regret

 

[Dr. Death]

The people talking sense in this thread are vastly outnumbered by the people spewing bovine feces. Also I wish I would have seen this thread earlier so I could use this

 

[Dr. Death]

Why with a Lizzy M 73 did you go DO? I sense some regret

If you don't know @Mad Jack story by now just give up.

 

[PatchAdams25]

If you don't know @Mad Jack story by now just give up.

Sorry I haven't been on SDN for years? If someone can forward me to a link so I can read up that would be nice!

 

[Mad Jack]

Why with a Lizzy M 73 did you go DO? I sense some regret

Underestimated how well I'd do on the MCAT, couldn't get an MD app together in time, chose to go DO instead of lose another year as an already old nontrad.

While I do not regret my decision, I am very familiar with the limitations it has placed before me, and don't want people to go the DO route only to feel burned down the road by it. I've got more than a few classmates that are quite unrealistic about their shot at, say, orthopedic surgery and the like, especially post-merger. I don't want too many people ending up like them- I want people that know what they're signing up for before they sign up for it, so that they don't spend the rest of their life bitter that they're in IM or FM. You want to be a doctor? DO is fine. You want to be a very particular type of doctor in a highly competitive specialty? Think long and hard, and if you're not willing to have a realistic backup plan, do a SMP or retake the MCAT if you want to optimize your chances (substantially I might add) of achieving your dreams. I'm not here to tend to the hugbox that the pre-osteo and osteo forums often are (a state of affairs that is largely precipitated by premeds, not medical students and residents), I'm here to very clearly spell out for people the reality of the situation. It isn't doom and gloom, but it certainly isn't puppies and rainbows.

 

[PatchAdams25]

Underestimated how well I'd do on the MCAT, couldn't get an MD app together in time, chose to go DO instead of lose another year as an already old nontrad.

While I do not regret my decision, I am very familiar with the limitations it has placed before me, and don't want people to go the DO route only to feel burned down the road by it. I've got more than a few classmates that are quite unrealistic about their shot at, say, orthopedic surgery and the like, especially post-merger. I don't want too many people ending up like them- I want people that know what they're signing up for before they sign up for it, so that they don't spend the rest of their life bitter that they're in IM or FM. You want to be a doctor? DO is fine. You want to be a very particular type of doctor in a highly competitive specialty? Think long and hard, and if you're not willing to have a realistic backup plan, do a SMP or retake the MCAT if you want to optimize your chances (substantially I might add) of achieving your dreams. I'm not here to tend to the hugbox that the pre-osteo and osteo forums often are (a state of affairs that is largely precipitated by premeds, not medical students and residents), I'm here to very clearly spell out for people the reality of the situation. It isn't doom and gloom, but it certainly isn't puppies and rainbows.

Yes I agree and I just wanted clarification on your decision as someone who is making this decision in the near future (try one more year to beef up app/retake MCAT for MD or apply as competitive DO candidate). I am hoping to get into an IM specialty, ATM something in cardiology (of course might change). Trying to gain some knowledge on how the merger will affect these aspirations so that I can make a sound decision.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yes I agree and I just wanted clarification on your decision as someone who is making this decision in the near future (try one more year to beef up app/retake MCAT for MD or apply as competitive DO candidate). I am hoping to get into an IM specialty, ATM something in cardiology (of course might change). Trying to gain some knowledge on how the merger will affect these aspirations so that I can make a sound decision.

The merger will have basically zero effect on your cardiology chances, as you wouldn've been matching ACGME before anyway. There's good community programs out there that match a lot of people into cardio and are pretty easy to break into as a DO (one around here matched 7 of 14 residents into cardiology alone last year), but your chances are going to be better out of a university program. Low-tier university programs are fairly DO friendly, but know you're going to have to really shine to stand out at a place that's getting thousands of apps from all over the world. Mid-tier programs are possible (and will maximize your chances as a DO), but you'll have to bust your ass and put in some research time if you want into them, and even then, nothing is guaranteed. As a US MD, unless you really bomb the USMLE, you've got a damn good shot at a university program of some tier. Throw in some research and it's all but guaranteed.

 

[PatchAdams25]

The merger will have basically zero effect on your cardiology chances, as you wouldn've been matching ACGME before anyway. There's good community programs out there that match a lot of people into cardio and are pretty easy to break into as a DO (one around here matched 7 of 14 residents into cardiology alone last year), but your chances are going to be better out of a university program. Low-tier university programs are fairly DO friendly, but know you're going to have to really shine to stand out at a place that's getting thousands of apps from all over the world. Mid-tier programs are possible (and will maximize your chances as a DO), but you'll have to bust your ass and put in some research time if you want into them, and even then, nothing is guaranteed. As a US MD, unless you really bomb the USMLE, you've got a damn good shot at a university program of some tier. Throw in some research and it's all but guaranteed.

If these are my career aspirations it sounds like it would be wise to wait one more year and go for an MD, but is encouraging hearing this is a DO friendly field (albeit having to bust ass which is understood)

 

[BiologyMajor86]

how about OB-GYN as a D.O? attainable?

 

[Mad Jack]

how about OB-GYN as a D.O? attainable?

Pretty attainable. About 8% of my school goes into Ob/Gyn each year.

 

[DrMikeP]

Holy **** are you guys serious in this thread? This is literally the exact same conversation in every other AOA merger/DOvsMD thread, everyone has acknowledge that's the case, then continued to say the same stuff anyway?

Yet the horse keeps getting beaten when as I said before we really just don't know how it will ultimately work its way out.

 

[mathnerd88]

The merger will have basically zero effect on your cardiology chances, as you wouldn've been matching ACGME before anyway. There's good community programs out there that match a lot of people into cardio and are pretty easy to break into as a DO (one around here matched 7 of 14 residents into cardiology alone last year), but your chances are going to be better out of a university program. Low-tier university programs are fairly DO friendly, but know you're going to have to really shine to stand out at a place that's getting thousands of apps from all over the world. Mid-tier programs are possible (and will maximize your chances as a DO), but you'll have to bust your ass and put in some research time if you want into them, and even then, nothing is guaranteed. As a US MD, unless you really bomb the USMLE, you've got a damn good shot at a university program of some tier. Throw in some research and it's all but guaranteed.

I thought many MD programs already have this "research" built into their curriculum (and also readily available,) which makes it easier for them. I believe for some DO schools, you have to actually go out and actively find research yourself.

I agree with you. At competitive specialties, DO's are at a disadvantage. (But everyone knows this.) For most people, this will be no problem, because I doubt people are REALLY going to DO school to expect to become an orthopedic surgeon...By then, hopefully, they have a better gauge at what's realistic for them.

This is akin to someone thinking they'll go to Harvard with a 1800 SAT score. For someone like you, I definitely can see a disadvantage if you absolutely want to go to one of the top competitive specialties, but I believe to most it should be okay.

To be honest, this is sounding like IVY vs Public State University all over again.

 

[kelminak]

Yet the horse keeps getting beaten when as I said before we really just don't know how it will ultimately work its way out.

Maybe we can blame it on my having nonstop nightmares last night and severe lack of sleep, but I am extremely irritable and these threads feel completely pointless. Immense speculation with no real idea how anything will play out. It's the same in every single thread.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Yup...and it's the same people that say the same thing over, and over, and over.


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[Mad Jack]

I thought many MD programs already have this "research" built into their curriculum (and also readily available,) which makes it easier for them. I believe for some DO schools, you have to actually go out and actively find research yourself.

I agree with you. At competitive specialties, DO's are at a disadvantage. (But everyone knows this.) For most people, this will be no problem, because I doubt people are REALLY going to DO school to expect to become an orthopedic surgeon...By then, hopefully, they have a better gauge at what's realistic for them.

This is akin to someone thinking they'll go to Harvard with a 1800 SAT score. For someone like you, I definitely can see a disadvantage if you absolutely want to go to one of the top competitive specialties, but I believe to most it should be okay.

To be honest, this is sounding like IVY vs Public State University all over again.

The real problem is that many students are not as savvy as SDN users. They just heard "DOs are just like MDs!" somewhere and ran with it. They are unaware of how the match process works, what a good USMLE score is, what it takes to match into a competitive specialty, etc. You would be shocked at how oblivious 80% of medical school students are. SDN is a very biased sample of highly informed individuals that is not representative of medical students in general in the slightest.

 

[Mad Jack]

Maybe we can blame it on my having nonstop nightmares last night and severe lack of sleep, but I am extremely irritable and these threads feel completely pointless. Immense speculation with no real idea how anything will play out. It's the same in every single thread.

There's always new people, like Patch, that might learn something and substantially alter their career trajectories in a favorable direction care of threads like these. That's why we have this discussion- because not every person on SDN has been around forever.

 

[mathnerd88]

The real problem is that many students are not as savvy as SDN users. They just heard "DOs are just like MDs!" somewhere and ran with it. They are unaware of how the match process works, what a good USMLE score is, what it takes to match into a competitive specialty, etc. You would be shocked at how oblivious 80% of medical school students are. SDN is a very biased sample of highly informed individuals that is not representative of medical students in general in the slightest.

Quite possibly, but if those students are smart enough to get into medical school, then they'll know what's in store for them.

Even at MD schools, at least half of the students go into primary care. The percentage for DO's are greater, but you have to understand that you are the minority applicant who has a LizzyM of 73 who went to a DO school.

I believe most students who go to the top-tier DO schools have LizzyM's around 67-68 at the top range.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Everyone is being unnecessarily hard on each other about DO vs. MD matching.

The honest truth is, DO stats are lower than that of MD stats, on average. The majority of DO students still will go into the less competitive residencies regardless. The people that will really suffer are those who do extremely well in DO school and score well on the boards.

I'm assuming you are saying that these students who do well in school and on the boards are going to be applying to ENT, dermatology, orthopedics, etc. If you are, then sure, like stated a billion times before, with the loss of the A.O.A. protected residencies in competitive specialties, we will most likely see a decrease in D.O.s landing residencies in those ultra competitive specialties. This is common sense since, if you look at match stats, you see that 99% of the time you see D.O.s getting into these fields, it is because they are the A.O.A. spots. So, if you take these A.O.A. spots away....ding, ding, ding! However, there are MANY D.O. students landing matches in ACGME spots NOW for surgery, anesthesia, radiology, emergency medicine, and other non-primary care fields. The merger isn't going to affect THESE students who are already competitive enough to match into ACGME for moderately competitive specialties. My opinion is that we may actually see matches into these fields increasing due to the D.O. students not having to bypass the ACGME match because of the fear of not matching at all if they solely applied ACGME.

 

[Mad Jack]

Quite possibly, but if those students are smart enough to get into medical school, then they'll know what's in store for them.

Even at MD schools, at least half of the students go into primary care. The percentage for DO's are greater, but you have to understand that you are the minority applicant who has a LizzyM of 73 who went to a DO school.

I believe most students who go to the top-tier DO schools have LizzyM's around 67-68 at the top range.

The vast majority of MD students do not go into primary care. Over 80% of US MDs that enter IM end up subspecializing, and that is where the majority of MD "primary care" matches come from.

 

[DrMikeP]

Yup...and it's the same people that say the same thing over, and over, and over.

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And repeat the same thing over and over within the same thread.

 

[PatchAdams25]

There's always new people, like Patch, that might learn something and substantially alter their career trajectories in a favorable direction care of threads like these. That's why we have this discussion- because not every person on SDN has been around forever.

Yes and I thank you for this @Mad Jack =D

 

[mathnerd88]

There's always new people, like Patch, that might learn something and substantially alter their career trajectories in a favorable direction care of threads like these. That's why we have this discussion- because not every person on SDN has been around forever.

Yes and I thank you for this @Mad Jack =D

The problem is that people can learn to use the search function instead of asking repetitive questions over and over again, flooding this forum with multiple threads with the same topic.

Every single time, it is the same with someone saying MD has a better shot at getting into more competitive residencies. This is true, but even a simple Google search would yield this result. I feel, as with most other applicants here, that they would rather be a physician than be gunning for competitive residencies. 95% of the applicants for DO would rather go to MD if they had the chance in the first place. Most of these people don't have the stats to garner MD acceptances. Even if they were borderline applicants, would they have the stats to get into top residencies when they're competing against other MD students who statistically, will get better board scores than them?

I feel like threads like these are pointless because this is all based on an individual level. There are those who do extremely well and get into really competitive residencies. I know DOs who are in residencies that are known not to take any DOs. There are exceptions that are posted on this very forum.

I'm sure you, @Mad Jack , will get into a really competitive residency somewhere if you have really good board scores, research experience, etc. For you, I would say your case is very very unique.