AOA, AACOM, and the ACGME agree to unified accreditation system

[GUH]

I can't decide whether your ignorance is more endearing or more nauseating. They spit in my face, not vice-versa. I do in fact appreciate the opportunity I’ve been given to practice medicine; it is a true privilege. However, I do not appreciate the broken promises, misleading information, and bulls**t I’ve been fed. I gave this an honest try – more than once. Being in the “real world” these last two years has opened my eyes to the real bias that exists. Sadly, there are people who consider us second-class physicians, as well as treat us as second-class physicians. I am not okay with that. I didn’t work my ass off to get walked on. Therefore, I support whatever efforts are necessary to extinguish these biases and, at the same time, improve patient care. So get over yourself and realize that this begins by acknowledging the fact that many DO residencies (and schools) provide a sub-par education, but that a collective effort can make things better. While nothing is perfect, nothing can be improved upon if we fail to recognize deficiencies and implement change. It’s okay to admit where we are weak. No one will fault us for trying to improve ourselves, and ultimately, the care we provide our patients. The unified accreditation system will help us immensely on this journey. We need the ACGME and I am not too proud to admit that. Who provides the majority of health care in this nation? Who trains the majority of physicians? Who is actively involved in meaningful scientific research that advances the medicine that we practice? Wake up, bro.

Why didn't you research this before going to a DO school? It really isn't that difficult. And DO's actually do conduct meaningful scientific research. What specific measures do you suggest our profession do to improve? Because it sounds like you would rather eliminate osteopathic medicine as a distinct profession, or at least shrink it.

This is overly simplistic. The difference bewteen teh usmle and comlex is vast. I know pdeople who scored well over 600 and barely budged 230s.

please refrain from such generalizations that can mislead future students.

You've given us a lot of anecdotes but no actual evidence.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[GUH]

most likely. I for one recommend it. Make DO students better.

Please elaborate on why DO students are inferior to MD students. Are you even a US student?

 

[ChiDO]

If you havent scored over 250/255 then my post doesnt relate to you.

Your response was to a comment I made about students who score exceedingly high on the exam yet choose not to go the USMLE route. Simply put I argue thsi is hard to believe and at best exceedingly rare- rarer than what is claimed on this thread, which I am disputing.

Unfortunately, my 247 doesn't qualify for you..huh. But ya, I went the DO Ortho route....guess I'll go back to being a dumb do dr. Enjoy the rest of medical school. Look forward to seeing your USMLE and Match Results.

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

I can't decide whether your ignorance is more endearing or more nauseating. They spit in my face, not vice-versa. I do in fact appreciate the opportunity I’ve been given to practice medicine; it is a true privilege. However, I do not appreciate the broken promises, misleading information, and bulls**t I’ve been fed. I gave this an honest try – more than once. Being in the “real world” these last two years has opened my eyes to the real bias that exists. Sadly, there are people who consider us second-class physicians, as well as treat us as second-class physicians. I am not okay with that. I didn’t work my ass off to get walked on. Therefore, I support whatever efforts are necessary to extinguish these biases and, at the same time, improve patient care. So get over yourself and realize that this begins by acknowledging the fact that many DO residencies (and schools) provide a sub-par education, but that a collective effort can make things better. While nothing is perfect, nothing can be improved upon if we fail to recognize deficiencies and implement change. It’s okay to admit where we are weak. No one will fault us for trying to improve ourselves, and ultimately, the care we provide our patients. The unified accreditation system will help us immensely on this journey. We need the ACGME and I am not too proud to admit that. Who provides the majority of health care in this nation? Who trains the majority of physicians? Who is actively involved in meaningful scientific research that advances the medicine that we practice? Wake up, bro.

Congratulations on making it to fourth year. You have worked hard and I know I don't know all the crap you have had to deal with. We both know DO schools make us jump through a lot of hoops and seem to find weird and novel ways of getting in the way of learning medicine. But how many of us would be in this position to begin with if it wasn't with the osteopathic profession? Your DO school gave you a shot and now you are nearly at the point of getting full practice rights as a physician. I'm no OMM ideologue and I don't think it needs to be the one defining feature of our profession. Sure it is something that separated us from our MD colleagues but if you're no fan then I don't really care if you practice it. The fact is that you are going to have the DO initials follow you around the rest of your professional career. You can either try to ignore it, be ashamed of it, or be proud of it.

Despite the bias that does exist the ACGME is confident enough in our residencies and the students our schools produce to include them in the new accreditation. We can't help that some people think we are second class physicians. If osteopathic medicine where to disappear tomorrow there would be people that look down on you because of where you went to school. You have nothing to be ashamed of, you worked your butt of learning medicine. The way to change people's minds about that isn't through policy changes, its by showing them we are just as good and just as deserving as any other physician.

Many people in you position essentially severe all ties to AOA and osteopathic medicine. I can see you have see many grievences against AOA and osteopathic training, many of which I agree with. By leaving it all you lose any power to change it. If you don't want be defined by the OMM aspect of osteopathic medicine thats fine. But you will still be a DO. The AOA isn't going anywhere. Instead of trying to dismantle the organization that took many of us whom mainstream medicine overlooked, why don't you try to change it. We need people with different opinions. We are entering a new chapter in osteopathic medicine in the US and I hope you stick around to be a part of it.

 

[bionerd89]

You think DOs and MDs are on a level playing field, but you don't think we should to prove ourselves to them? Why not?? If prejudice didn't exist, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I am a 4th year DO student, and I am more than happy to prove myself in hopes of never having to defend my medical education again. That's sadly the truth, and even with the unified accreditation system, it will still take time to dispel any prejudice that remains. I'm thankful for the opportunities the new system will provide, including obviating the need to explain or defend osteopathic residency education. It's already enough having to do so for osteopathic medical education, including OMT. Luckily, I didn't spend 4 years learning "osteopathic techniques." I spent one half-day per week in lab during the first two years going through the motions, and reviewed Savarese only for the COMLEX. The overwhelming majority of my attendings and preceptors have been MDs; those who were DOs didn't practice OMT. I haven't done OMT in almost two years. Looking forward to never thinking about it again after Step 3. I would trade in my DO for an MD if this were 1960s California all over again.


Regarding the COMLEX, even I am unable to explain it or compare it to the USMLE (except for stating the obvious - that the USMLE is far superior to the poorly-written COMLEX that is an embarrassment to all DOs). Some of my classmates chose not to take the USMLE because they lacked confidence, not because they intended on applying only to DO residencies. This mentality is a self-fulfilling prophecy. There should be no resistance to take the USMLE; after all, we do claim our education is tantamount to that of MDs, don't we? There is no reason for an MD to take the COMLEX to gain acceptance into a previously-DO program. They can learn throughout residency if necessary, just as I would have to relearn OMT had I decided to apply for osteopathic residencies.


I wish I knew the reality before choosing DO school. However, I have made the best of it and am confident that the unified accreditation system is a step in the right direction. Those who are stuck in the past or are unwilling to accept change in an attempt to maintain their "distinction" are quickly becoming a minority. I'm not opposed to OMT, provided the medical student or physician is interested in practicing it, but I see no logical reason for this to be a distinguishing factor. There are far more MDs than DOs in this nation. If OMT were truly as beneficial to patients as some DOs claim, then it would be our duty not only to invest serious money into scientific research, but also to teach OMT to MDs since they care for more patients than DOs. We all want to provide the most comprehensive, high-quality care for our patients.

Can you share some specific instances where you were discriminated against as a DO besides during matching?

 

[seven7]

Congratulations on making it to fourth year. You have worked hard and I know I don't know all the crap you have had to deal with. We both know DO schools make us jump through a lot of hoops and seem to find weird and novel ways of getting in the way of learning medicine. But how many of us would be in this position to begin with if it wasn't with the osteopathic profession? Your DO school gave you a shot and now you are nearly at the point of getting full practice rights as a physician. I'm no OMM ideologue and I don't think it needs to be the one defining feature of our profession. Sure it is something that separated us from our MD colleagues but if you're no fan then I don't really care if you practice it. The fact is that you are going to have the DO initials follow you around the rest of your professional career. You can either try to ignore it, be ashamed of it, or be proud of it.

Despite the bias that does exist the ACGME is confident enough in our residencies and the students our schools produce to include them in the new accreditation. We can't help that some people think we are second class physicians. If osteopathic medicine where to disappear tomorrow there would be people that look down on you because of where you went to school. You have nothing to be ashamed of, you worked your butt of learning medicine. The way to change people's minds about that isn't through policy changes, its by showing them we are just as good and just as deserving as any other physician.

Many people in you position essentially severe all ties to AOA and osteopathic medicine. I can see you have see many grievences against AOA and osteopathic training, many of which I agree with. By leaving it all you lose any power to change it. If you don't want be defined by the OMM aspect of osteopathic medicine thats fine. But you will still be a DO. The AOA isn't going anywhere. Instead of trying to dismantle the organization that took many of us whom mainstream medicine overlooked, why don't you try to change it. We need people with different opinions. We are entering a new chapter in osteopathic medicine in the US and I hope you stick around to be a part of it.

Thank you for the kind response. I apologize for being a sarcastic jerk; I honestly do feel bad. Congratulations to you, too. Just to clarify, OMM has played only a minor role in my bad experiences. Without boring you with the details, my school has f’d over a lot of us. It’s sad how many of my classmates share these sentiments because our school did a terrible job representing DOs. Similar to a poor rotation ruining any chance that you might actually enjoy that specialty, dealing with my school has left me slightly bitter. I used to be pro-DO, had nice things to say, but I created a new account to avoid the “I told you so” messages – I’m quite capable of doing that myself. You make many good points that I agree with. Thank you for the perspective.

 

[bionerd89]

Thank you for the kind response. I apologize for being a sarcastic jerk; I honestly do feel bad. Congratulations to you, too. Just to clarify, OMM has played only a minor role in my bad experiences. Without boring you with the details, my school has f’d over a lot of us. It’s sad how many of my classmates share these sentiments because our school did a terrible job representing DOs. Similar to a poor rotation ruining any chance that you might actually enjoy that specialty, dealing with my school has left me slightly bitter. I used to be pro-DO, had nice things to say, but I created a new account to avoid the “I told you so” messages – I’m quite capable of doing that myself. You make many good points that I agree with. Thank you for the perspective.

I am hoping that not every DO school has poor rotations. I wished students can warn us about their schools so we have a better idea of what to expect. Was your school one of the more established ones or was it a newer one? Thanks

 

[HarryPlopper]

I am hoping that not every DO school has poor rotations. I wished students can warn us about their schools so we have a better idea of what to expect. Was your school one of the more established ones or was it a newer one? Thanks

No matter how awful a school is, no student wants to actively trash talk about their school outside of their class. Talking **** about their own school is self destructive and will benefit them in no way.

Because of this, new students aren't always going to get the full story.

What would be more productive would be to look for factors that are concrete strengths of a program like residency affiliations.

 

[seven7]

Can you share some specific instances where you were discriminated against as a DO besides during matching?

Of course. I overheard an attending say that the DO students can't present patients for s**t and have no clue what they are doing. Although that comment was not directed at me specifically, it obviously didn't help my confidence. While on my peds rotation, an attending asked who I was, and after I introduced myself his tone changed and he's like, "oh, you go to that osteo, uhm oste-ahhh-p, wait how do you say it? How many years is DO school, 3? Oh really, it's 4? I didn't know that." Another preceptor asked me why I didn't apply to medical school. Evidently she didn't think DO schools are medical schools. On a surgery rotation one of the docs made a comment about a female DO resident being there because there weren't enough females in their program, otherwise he didn't understand why they would accept a DO. She was a great resident in my opinion. I felt obligated to remind him that I'm a DO, and his response was, yeah but you're different. He just didn't have anything else to say. I was asked once, in front of other people, how much my (DO) school charges for tuition because I answered a stupid pimp question incorrectly. Lol. Anyway, I hope these examples are enough. The comments on the interview trail can essentially be summed up as, "you're a very strong applicant, except for the fact that you're a DO." Don't get me wrong, people weren't blatantly bashing DOs at my interviews, but these are the type of comments that get stuck in my head. Thankfully I remember the nice comments as well. Not everyone is mean.

 

[seven7]

I am hoping that not every DO school has poor rotations. I wished students can warn us about their schools so we have a better idea of what to expect. Was your school one of the more established ones or was it a newer one? Thanks

More established. I did have a few awesome rotations, but many weren't that great because there wasn't enough variety and pathology. I learned a lot from books.

 

[bionerd89]

Of course. I overheard an attending say that the DO students can't present patients for s**t and have no clue what they are doing. Although that comment was not directed at me specifically, it obviously didn't help my confidence. While on my peds rotation, an attending asked who I was, and after I introduced myself his tone changed and he's like, "oh, you go to that osteo, uhm oste-ahhh-p, wait how do you say it? How many years is DO school, 3? Oh really, it's 4? I didn't know that." Another preceptor asked me why I didn't apply to medical school. Evidently she didn't think DO schools are medical schools. On a surgery rotation one of the docs made a comment about a female DO resident being there because there weren't enough females in their program, otherwise he didn't understand why they would accept a DO. She was a great resident in my opinion. I felt obligated to remind him that I'm a DO, and his response was, yeah but you're different. He just didn't have anything else to say. I was asked once, in front of other people, how much my (DO) school charges for tuition because I answered a stupid pimp question incorrectly. Lol. Anyway, I hope these examples are enough. The comments on the interview trail can essentially be summed up as, "you're a very strong applicant, except for the fact that you're a DO." Don't get me wrong, people weren't blatantly bashing DOs at my interviews, but these are the type of comments that get stuck in my head. Thankfully I remember the nice comments as well. Not everyone is mean.

Wow that one is pretty ridiculous. I honestly think that makes them look stupid and ignorant. Why the hell would you be doing your rotation at their hospital if you were not a med student?

Did all those things happen at different rotation sites or the same one? If DO students normally rotate at those sites, why would they seem so negative towards DO students or a least why are they surprised to see a DO student?

Sorry that you had to go through that. I better start mentally preparing myself for things like that to happen to me. I hope you get into a really good residency.

 

[costales]

So, an established school sent its students to core rotations where the MDs ridiculed them and treated them like Martians.

Name the school, please.

 

[seven7]

Wow that one is pretty ridiculous. I honestly think that makes them look stupid and ignorant. Why the hell would you be doing your rotation at their hospital if you were not a med student?

Did all those things happen at different rotation sites or the same one? If DO students normally rotate at those sites, why would they seem so negative towards DO students or a least why are they surprised to see a DO student?

Sorry that you had to go through that. I better start mentally preparing myself for things like that to happen to me. I hope you get into a really good residency.

I rotated at a couple hospitals during my third year with mostly MD students. The MD program graciously provided rotations for a handful of us each block, but couldn't accommodate us all. I was fortunate to land a few of these rotations; some of my classmates had none. Some of the attendings thought we were all MD students, until they had a chance to get to know us. Most of them were cool. I worked with a lot of different physicians that never said anything bad. The negative comments are easy to remember and talk about, even though they are few in comparison to nice comments and constructive criticism. And I probably over think things too much. Also, one of these instances was during an audition rotation at a program that does have some DOs, but not many. Perhaps he was just giving me a hard time and I read too much into it. The guy who told me I was behind the other students was a private physician who took one to two students per month, and I set this rotation up on my own. It was in a different city. These are my experiences, but don't forget that there are many students who have not had similar experiences. Please don't mentally prepare yourself for this BS because you will be fine. I've had some great experiences but I let the stupid ones overshadow them, and of course they are the ones I elaborated on because I was asked to give some examples.

I hope you get a great residency too!!

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I rotated at a couple hospitals during my third year with mostly MD students. The MD program graciously provided rotations for a handful of us each block, but couldn't accommodate us all. I was fortunate to land a few of these rotations; some of my classmates had none. Some of the attendings thought we were all MD students, until they had a chance to get to know us. Most of them were cool. I worked with a lot of different physicians that never said anything bad. The negative comments are easy to remember and talk about, even though they are few in comparison to nice comments and constructive criticism. And I probably over think things too much. Also, one of these instances was during an audition rotation at a program that does have some DOs, but not many. Perhaps he was just giving me a hard time and I read too much into it. The guy who told me I was behind the other students was a private physician who took one to two students per month, and I set this rotation up on my own. It was in a different city. These are my experiences, but don't forget that there are many students who have not had similar experiences. Please don't mentally prepare yourself for this BS because you will be fine. I've had some great experiences but I let the stupid ones overshadow them, and of course they are the ones I elaborated on because I was asked to give some examples.

I hope you get a great residency too!!

Would you be able to say the states or regions that these bad experiences occurred?

 

[NontradCA]

Of course. I overheard an attending say that the DO students can't present patients for s**t and have no clue what they are doing. Although that comment was not directed at me specifically, it obviously didn't help my confidence. While on my peds rotation, an attending asked who I was, and after I introduced myself his tone changed and he's like, "oh, you go to that osteo, uhm oste-ahhh-p, wait how do you say it? How many years is DO school, 3? Oh really, it's 4? I didn't know that." Another preceptor asked me why I didn't apply to medical school. Evidently she didn't think DO schools are medical schools. On a surgery rotation one of the docs made a comment about a female DO resident being there because there weren't enough females in their program, otherwise he didn't understand why they would accept a DO. She was a great resident in my opinion. I felt obligated to remind him that I'm a DO, and his response was, yeah but you're different. He just didn't have anything else to say. I was asked once, in front of other people, how much my (DO) school charges for tuition because I answered a stupid pimp question incorrectly. Lol. Anyway, I hope these examples are enough. The comments on the interview trail can essentially be summed up as, "you're a very strong applicant, except for the fact that you're a DO." Don't get me wrong, people weren't blatantly bashing DOs at my interviews, but these are the type of comments that get stuck in my head. Thankfully I remember the nice comments as well. Not everyone is mean.

Why would you want to work with people like that anyway?

 

[sanj238]

Unfortunately, my 247 doesn't qualify for you..huh. But ya, I went the DO Ortho route....guess I'll go back to being a dumb do dr. Enjoy the rest of medical school. Look forward to seeing your USMLE and Match Results.View attachment 178782

Why is your score report format different from every other score report format ....

 

[user3]

So, an established school sent its students to core rotations where the MDs ridiculed them and treated them like Martians.

Name the school, please.

Just speculating but this poster sounds like willen101383, who goes to PCOM

 

[SLC]

Can you share some specific instances where you were discriminated against as a DO besides during matching?

I'm not him, but as a DO student I've been barred from rotating in a couple of hospitals I've tried to get into (for electives).

What's funny is that the hospital will employ DO's with no question. They even have DO residents. But they have this policy that explicitly states that no DO students are allowed to rotate there.

 

[NurWollen]

I'm not him, but as a DO student I've been barred from rotating in a couple of hospitals I've tried to get into (for electives).

What's funny is that the hospital will employ DO's with no question. They even have DO residents. But they have this policy that explicitly states that no DO students are allowed to rotate there.

That's pretty jacked up.

 

[GUH]

I'm not him, but as a DO student I've been barred from rotating in a couple of hospitals I've tried to get into (for electives).

What's funny is that the hospital will employ DO's with no question. They even have DO residents. But they have this policy that explicitly states that no DO students are allowed to rotate there.

UC Irvine?
And yeah it's shenanigans like that which make me chuckle when folks talk about how unified GME accreditation will somehow "level the playing field".

 

[SLC]

UC Irvine?
And yeah it's shenanigans like that which make me chuckle when folks talk about how unified GME accreditation will somehow "level the playing field".

Nope, it's a community hospital in Utah. But one that's very married to UUSOM. Funny thing is, UUSOM let's DO's rotate for 4th year, but some of their rotations are at these hospitals so DO's are barred from those rotations. But I'd honestly rather be at the University hospital anyway.

I'm actually doing a rotation at one of this community hospital group's other larger hospitals right now, and they have no problem with DO's here. It's been an excellent experience. I've experienced zero discrimination, and no harsh comments from anyone.

I do think that having the unified residency accreditation will do a lot to reduce this type of discrimination though. It's already waning, and once we all train in programs with the same standards there will be no reason anyone can cite to say that DO's are any different than MD's.

There won't be DO residency vs. MD residency; there will only be residency.

Edit: And now that we're all ACGME, the organization has a duty to treat all of us MD and DO with equality. Expect programs to be forbidden from not considering DO's by official policy. Perhaps PD's will hang on to their prejudices, but they will eventually die out.

 

[GUH]

...Edit: And now that we're all ACGME, the organization has a duty to treat all of us MD and DO with equality. Expect programs to be forbidden from not considering DO's by official policy. Perhaps PD's will hang on to their prejudices, but they will eventually die out.

I hope so too but it doesn't look like this is the case given what we've been told so far... My fingers are definitely crossed, though!

 

[bionerd89]

Just speculating but this poster sounds like willen101383, who goes to PCOM

I really hope that's not true since I always thought PCOM was one of the top DO schools.

 

[Dharma]

Of course. I overheard an attending say that the DO students can't present patients for s**t and have no clue what they are doing. Although that comment was not directed at me specifically, it obviously didn't help my confidence. While on my peds rotation, an attending asked who I was, and after I introduced myself his tone changed and he's like, "oh, you go to that osteo, uhm oste-ahhh-p, wait how do you say it? How many years is DO school, 3? Oh really, it's 4? I didn't know that." Another preceptor asked me why I didn't apply to medical school. Evidently she didn't think DO schools are medical schools. On a surgery rotation one of the docs made a comment about a female DO resident being there because there weren't enough females in their program, otherwise he didn't understand why they would accept a DO. She was a great resident in my opinion. I felt obligated to remind him that I'm a DO, and his response was, yeah but you're different. He just didn't have anything else to say. I was asked once, in front of other people, how much my (DO) school charges for tuition because I answered a stupid pimp question incorrectly. Lol. Anyway, I hope these examples are enough. The comments on the interview trail can essentially be summed up as, "you're a very strong applicant, except for the fact that you're a DO." Don't get me wrong, people weren't blatantly bashing DOs at my interviews, but these are the type of comments that get stuck in my head. Thankfully I remember the nice comments as well. Not everyone is mean.

And anyone who thinks the merger is going to change opinions like these is kidding themselves. They will always exist to some extent, especially with two different degrees. But you don't have control over such jackasses, so why even worry about it, right? Their negativity will allow them to always finding some discrepancy (superficial or not) to vent their own personal b.s. on. Do your best and keep pushing ahead. The idiots in the world present another the opportunity to grow… and laugh…

 

[scoKraz4]

The merger is a great thing. Yes in short term, it can be intimidating because it isn't in full effect yet and we don't know what the results will be, but in long term this needed to be done. IMO, the separate but equal route is krap and is just all politics and power struggle. "Osteopathic doctors" and "osteopathic medical students" should just be referred to as "doctors" and "medical students."

 

[GUH]

The merger is a great thing. Yes in short term, it can be intimidating because it isn't in full effect yet and we don't know what the results will be, but in long term this needed to be done. IMO, the separate but equal route is krap and is just all politics and power struggle. "Osteopathic doctors" and "osteopathic medical students" should just be referred to as "doctors" and "medical students."

So you're advocating eliminating the osteopathic profession

 

[SLC]

I hope so too but it doesn't look like this is the case given what we've been told so far... My fingers are definitely crossed, though!

Can't possibly be any-other way. We're not going to have a GME education system which represents both DO's and MD's, but that permits programs to have an official no-DO policy. It just wouldn't make sense at all.

I'm not saying that JHU-Osler is suddenly going to start ranking DO's immediately. But I expect places like Vanderbilt to be required to abandon their policy of not even allowing DO grads to apply. I expect the ACGME to leverage the program's accredited status to require it.

 

[user3]

Can't possibly be any-other way. We're not going to have a GME education system which represents both DO's and MD's, but that permits programs to have an official no-DO policy. It just wouldn't make sense at all.

I'm not saying that JHU-Osler is suddenly going to start ranking DO's immediately. But I expect places like Vanderbilt to be required to abandon their policy of not even allowing DO grads to apply. I expect the ACGME to leverage the program's accredited status to require it.

so what % of the ACGME board of directors will consist of DO's?

 

[scoKraz4]

So you're advocating eliminating the osteopathic profession

I'm advocating medicine and the elimination of division within it. I goto an osteopathic school now but I honestly couldn't care less about going to an allopathic/osteopathic school or what title I hold. It just really sucks to have bias about you because of a stupid name in a title. I mean, people in my class, and even myself, feel awkward at times when I tell people I goto an osteopathic school because you know the exact questions that are going to come up next. I feel like I have a script on hand to explain to people what it is. I just say I goto medical school now and completely omit anything osteopathic. Don't get me wrong though, I am not at all embarrassed in any way by going to the school that I do. I know that I will graduate and be a doctor, which was my intended goal from the start. I never wanted to be an osteopathic doctor or an allopathic doctor. Just a doctor. Overall, I am just frustrated that I am potentially limited in what I can do because of bias.

In the grand scheme of life, I just want to practice in a field that I like and do what I love.

 

[WaterIsGood]

I'm advocating medicine and the elimination of division within it. I goto an osteopathic school now but I honestly couldn't care less about going to an allopathic/osteopathic school or what title I hold. It just really sucks to have bias about you because of a stupid name in a title. I mean, people in my class, and even myself, feel awkward at times when I tell people I goto an osteopathic school because you know the exact questions that are going to come up next. I feel like I have a script on hand to explain to people what it is. I just say I goto medical school now and completely omit anything osteopathic. Don't get me wrong though, I am not at all embarrassed in any way by going to the school that I do. I know that I will graduate and be a doctor, which was my intended goal from the start. I never wanted to be an osteopathic doctor or an allopathic doctor. Just a doctor. Overall, I am just frustrated that I am potentially limited in what I can do because of bias.

In the grand scheme of life, I just want to practice in a field that I like and do what I love.

Why not just say you go to medical school? MD students don't tell people they go to an allopathic school, and if they did, they'd probably get the same response that you get.
.

 

[scoKraz4]

Why not just say you go to medical school? MD students don't tell people they go to an allopathic school, and if they did, they'd probably get the same response that you get.
.

I'm advocating medicine and the elimination of division within it. I goto an osteopathic school now but I honestly couldn't care less about going to an allopathic/osteopathic school or what title I hold. It just really sucks to have bias about you because of a stupid name in a title. I mean, people in my class, and even myself, feel awkward at times when I tell people I goto an osteopathic school because you know the exact questions that are going to come up next. I feel like I have a script on hand to explain to people what it is. I just say I goto medical school now and completely omit anything osteopathic. Don't get me wrong though, I am not at all embarrassed in any way by going to the school that I do. I know that I will graduate and be a doctor, which was my intended goal from the start. I never wanted to be an osteopathic doctor or an allopathic doctor. Just a doctor. Overall, I am just frustrated that I am potentially limited in what I can do because of bias.

In the grand scheme of life, I just want to practice in a field that I like and do what I love.

 

[Whosis]

I don't see how this really accomplishes anything toward the bias of some PD's toward DO's. Most of the bias exists because of perceived weaknesses in DO education, the COMLEX and OMM in general. This really does nothing to address those concerns but it will remove the weaker DO residencies from the pool which will increase the quality of GME.

 

[Beth_W737]

We don't know if there are additional terms they didn't release like minimum quotas

 

[HarryPlopper]

I don't see how this really accomplishes anything toward the bias of some PD's toward DO's. Most of the bias exists because of perceived weaknesses in DO education, the COMLEX and OMM in general. This really does nothing to address those concerns but it will remove the weaker DO residencies from the pool which will increase the quality of GME.

The bias of the PDs isn't going to change instantly and probably not for a while. In the most competitive fields, they won't have a reason to change as their methods have been working for them thus far. Also to be fair though, some of the bias PDs have is simply due to ignorance. As DOs becomes more well-known, some/most of this bias will dissipate, but there will always be some bias. There will probably be bias against MDs from former DO programs as well.

 

[ChiDO]

Why is your score report format different from every other score report format ....

Straight from my ERAS application. Keep making excuses though.

Worst part of this entire situation is, you are a DO, you called out a DO Ortho resident for my dumb decision and poor planning... I provided proof, and you make another excuse.

Not sure why I bother....

 

[bionerd89]

Why not just say you go to medical school? MD students don't tell people they goT to an allopathic school, and if they did, they'd probably get the same response that you get.
.

I agree, by specifying Osteopathic school it makes it seem like its not actually medical school. We need to take back the phrase "medical school" and not be shy to use it.

 

[HarryPlopper]

I agree, by specifying Osteopathic school it makes it seem like its not actually medical school. We need to take back the phrase "medical school" and not be shy to use it.

It doesn't even make sense to not add in the "medical" when referring to school. DOs and MDs are physicians. Adding the osteopathic part in is just complicating the issue.

 

[sanj238]

Straight from my ERAS application. Keep making excuses though.

Worst part of this entire situation is, you are a DO, you called out a DO Ortho resident for my dumb decision and poor planning... I provided proof, and you make another excuse.

Not sure why I bother....

No I dont believe I was ever making excuses. I said 250 or higher. and frankly 250 was on the low end. to do well on comlex one can do so with minimal extra prep for the usmle. It simply is not required. To get substantially above that ie 255 or higher then additional time on mol bio etc beyond whats in first aid is required. Whether you like that statement or not that is the truth.

And no I do not agree with that decision. clearly you chose it but it makes little sense to me to prepare so hard that one can score a 255 and still choose something else...which really does not refer to you by the way so I am not saying your decision was dumb.

Why did I choose those numbers, what percentile do you think a 247 is. Its certainly not ninetieth. A 240 is around 65%. Yes 65. A D. A 250 is breaking seventy and a 260 is closer to ninety though one needs around a 265 to get there. 99 is not even until well past 270.

For perspective, i scored a 35 which was a 98 when i took it. That means I need a two seventy and higher to come close to that. These are the truly exceptional scores, the 250 and above or so that really show one knows his medicine very well. i would say that a 260 really is what separates individuals.

 

[GUH]

...
Why did I choose those numbers, what percentile do you think a 247 is. Its certainly not ninetieth. A 240 is around 65%. Yes 65. A D. A 250 is breaking seventy and a 260 is closer to ninety though one needs around a 265 to get there. 99 is not even until well past 270.

For perspective, i scored a 35 which was a 98 when i took it. That means I need a two seventy and higher to come close to that. These are the truly exceptional scores, the 250 and above or so that really show one knows his medicine very well. i would say that a 260 really is what separates individuals.

Since when was scoring in the 65th percentile of medical students the equivalent of earning a "D" grade?
Clearly the MCAT needs more emphasis on basic statistics.

 

[DrEnderW]

Isn't a 250 around the 80th percentile? I think 60s is a little low...

 

[Elevencents]

Isn't a 250 around the 80th percentile? I think 60s is a little low...

Yeah 242 is when you breach 80% as of 2013 figures. 260 is 96th percentile.

 

[Elevencents]

No I dont believe I was ever making excuses. I said 250 or higher. and frankly 250 was on the low end. to do well on comlex one can do so with minimal extra prep for the usmle. It simply is not required. To get substantially above that ie 255 or higher then additional time on mol bio etc beyond whats in first aid is required. Whether you like that statement or not that is the truth.

And no I do not agree with that decision. clearly you chose it but it makes little sense to me to prepare so hard that one can score a 255 and still choose something else...which really does not refer to you by the way so I am not saying your decision was dumb.

Why did I choose those numbers, what percentile do you think a 247 is. Its certainly not ninetieth. A 240 is around 65%. Yes 65. A D. A 250 is breaking seventy and a 260 is closer to ninety though one needs around a 265 to get there. 99 is not even until well past 270.

For perspective, i scored a 35 which was a 98 when i took it. That means I need a two seventy and higher to come close to that. These are the truly exceptional scores, the 250 and above or so that really show one knows his medicine very well. i would say that a 260 really is what separates individuals.

A 247 in 2013 is 87th percentile. Not sure where you pulled your numbers from.

 

[TheFuture_22]

A 247 in 2013 is 87th percentile. Not sure where you pulled your numbers from.

I think I know where.

 

[ChiDO]

A 247 in 2013 is 87th percentile. Not sure where you pulled your numbers from.

Thanks for the clarification. I think after 240, especially after 250, it's really all based on luck. Do I think there is any difference between the 250 and 260 person; nope..all luck. But that's just my opinion.

As for choosing the DO route, the risk of not matching in the MD match, even though as an "MD" student I would be a easy match more than likely; that risk was not worth wasting another year not doing residency when I can go to an awesome DO program and come out more advanced in my surgical skills then my MD counterparts.

That last statement is not all encompassing, but has been stated by many of our graduated residents during fellowships with MD n DO residents. So win-win in my book.

 

[pattr]

No I dont believe I was ever making excuses. I said 250 or higher. and frankly 250 was on the low end. to do well on comlex one can do so with minimal extra prep for the usmle. It simply is not required. To get substantially above that ie 255 or higher then additional time on mol bio etc beyond whats in first aid is required. Whether you like that statement or not that is the truth.

And no I do not agree with that decision. clearly you chose it but it makes little sense to me to prepare so hard that one can score a 255 and still choose something else...which really does not refer to you by the way so I am not saying your decision was dumb.

Why did I choose those numbers, what percentile do you think a 247 is. Its certainly not ninetieth. A 240 is around 65%. Yes 65. A D. A 250 is breaking seventy and a 260 is closer to ninety though one needs around a 265 to get there. 99 is not even until well past 270.

For perspective, i scored a 35 which was a 98 when i took it. That means I need a two seventy and higher to come close to that. These are the truly exceptional scores, the 250 and above or so that really show one knows his medicine very well. i would say that a 260 really is what separates individuals.

Lol you just lost any last shred of legitimacy you had before this post. You're a second year and haven't even taken the test yet and are judging people's scores and residency application decisions? What's more... did you really just compare percentiles to LETTER GRADES?? better review your biostats!

And you're comparing percentiles on the MCAT to those for the USMLE (which are not comparable in the slightest)?

 

[sanj238]

Lol you just lost any last shred of legitimacy you had before this post. You're a second year and haven't even taken the test yet and are judging people's scores and residency application decisions? What's more... did you really just compare percentiles to LETTER GRADES?? better review your biostats!

And you're comparing percentiles on the MCAT to those for the USMLE (which are not comparable in the slightest)?

Third year. Don't get too carried.

Potato potato. Percentiles are percentiles all my grades in ug were on a normal curve or normalized sorry if yours were a result of arbitrary grade inflation

 

[pattr]

Third year. Don't get too carried.

Potato potato. Percentiles are percentiles all my grades in ug were on a normal curve or normalized sorry if yours were a result of arbitrary grade inflation

That's not the point. You're comparing a normal distribution of all MCAT test-takers (aka. pre-meds) to one of all the medical students and physicians who take the USMLE step 1... see where I'm going with this?

 

[DocEspana]

so what % of the ACGME board of directors will consist of DO's?

10-18% (unclear if they would get three or six members) with a small chance to get another seat or two in elected positions. Last I was told (which was earlier this week)

 

[DocEspana]

No I dont believe I was ever making excuses. I said 250 or higher. and frankly 250 was on the low end. to do well on comlex one can do so with minimal extra prep for the usmle. It simply is not required. To get substantially above that ie 255 or higher then additional time on mol bio etc beyond whats in first aid is required. Whether you like that statement or not that is the truth.

And no I do not agree with that decision. clearly you chose it but it makes little sense to me to prepare so hard that one can score a 255 and still choose something else...which really does not refer to you by the way so I am not saying your decision was dumb.

Why did I choose those numbers, what percentile do you think a 247 is. Its certainly not ninetieth. A 240 is around 65%. Yes 65. A D. A 250 is breaking seventy and a 260 is closer to ninety though one needs around a 265 to get there. 99 is not even until well past 270.

For perspective, i scored a 35 which was a 98 when i took it. That means I need a two seventy and higher to come close to that. These are the truly exceptional scores, the 250 and above or so that really show one knows his medicine very well. i would say that a 260 really is what separates individuals.

As of 2011 (so yea, a little dated) a 234 was 74%. 242 is about 80% And it is well established that 99% falls somewhere around a 254 because score frequency massively drops off after 242.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

@DocEspana did you get to listen to the conference? I'm wondering if someone could fill us in on what went on.