anyone hear from Ireland??

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Ah, you're in pre-clinical years. Now I understand.
1) You haven't been there long enough to get sick of it. (You don't dread going back each year yet?)
2) You haven't experienced the horrible bunch of *stuff* known as clinical 'education'.

I agree with you entirely that in the preclinical years, med school is what you make of it. You learn from books anyway. You could learn as much at home in your bedroom, but clinical education is different. No matter how much you read you aren't going to be any good clinically until you see it for yourself, and you aren't likely to catch on unless there's someone there to discuss it with you. That's why I was complaining about the complete waste of time that your first 2 clinical years are. By the time they actually get off their *bottoms* and teach (final med), it's too late for you to go home the next year.


You think you'll know things solidly now, but it might not be as solid as you think. I already took Step 1 (and did well thanks to a lot of self-education), but the books that are review for US student contain a lot of information never covered in our classes. You can do it all and be fine, but I'm just saying that everything (Step 1 and 2, residency application, etc.) is harder on you here than back in the US. When it comes time for you to do your electives, you'll see how solid your education isn't.

Go abroad for med school if there's no other way, but for ****'s sake, don't chose it! (Some people I know say they'd rather have gone a different career route than go to Ireland, but they are relatively few. It still demonstrates how unsatisfied some are.)

Bring a rain coat.

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Hmm, thanks for the different perspective, student.ie . I guess it's one of those things I'll have to wait and see for myself. We'll see if the curriculum changes help too by that time.

But I still think it's a bit pessimistic of a view. I've talked to a lot of North American UCD and Trinity grads or 5th/6th years who are very happy with the type of training they got. That isn't to say that it couldn't be improved a lot and doesn't have faults, but when they went back to the US for rotations and electives, they said they were very pleasantly surprised at their level of competency when compared to their US counterparts.

I think the people who come here know that it'll be harder in ways to do the things necessary to come back to the US, but I myself think it's worth it for the chance to be here and live in europe. I've already done things that tons of people haven't gotten to, and I wouldn't trade that in. I know I'll have to work that bit harder, but others have done it before me, so there's no reason that I can't. Maybe a naive view, yeah. Just after talking to others who seem very happy with their clinical training and their competence level, gave me a boost of confidence, especially from those who couldn't belive the comparative lack of competence their US-trained colleagues displayed (ie. not being able to present cases efficiently or take proper histories, not being able to diagnose without ordering batteries of tests, etc.)

I know that Trinity at least, and I'm sure the others, are very concerned about who they're sending out in the real world and they really emphasize points/facts/information of clinical significance and tell us over and over again how important it is to know and remember these.

I'll try to drum up some more upper year students from different colleges so we can get a more viewpoints and more representative perspectives.
 
Holy ****.....

Sorry, but this thread is hugely entertaining. Seriously, folks. I've sat back and despaired at some of the comments I've read here:

("The Irish never question anything no matter how messed up it is, and they get really pissed off if you question anything.")

and I've just laughed at some of the others:

("i am told that regular canned tuna in water is not available...it comes premixed with mayo and other disgusting things like that (the irish are NOT known for their healthy eating, drinking, and smoking habits)..")


I mean, come on. TUNA? And as for the angry-at-life poster who loves to hate our educational system, I think someone needs to adapt to the system he's in, and stop complaining! I'd hate to be in this lad's class! But then again, I'd probably say nothing, because "The Irish never question anything...", right? The Irish? Oh, you mean your hosts in this country. Oh, ok......

Anyways, rant over. How are ye all doin'? To those of you who are coming over in a few weeks, welcome to Ireland. I have known quite a few US students who've come to our colleges on such programmes as the Junior Year Abroad, etc., and I have not yet met one who has not (a) loved it and (b) vowed to come back. Seriously, it's gonna be a life-changing experience and you're all gonna have a ball.

Now, to answer all the questions that I can. First of all, who the hell am I to go around answering questions? Well, I'm a 20-year old Irish fella who's starting in University College Dublin doing Medicine in two weeks. Yeah, I'm as excited as you are. I'm actually a bit old to be starting first year of college, but I was already in college, you see, and I dropped out. Yes, I'm a bum. Ah no, what happened was that I had always been on about becoming a doctor. Always. Then I got into a brilliant group of friends the last year of high school (the year we take the all important Leaving Cert., whose grades dictate if we get into the college course we want or not!), and had the best year ever. To the detriment of my grades. So I was doing Law through an Arts degree in NUI Galway (www.nuigalway.ie) and living with a 1st year med-student, one of my best friends. All year long I watched her do the course I wanted to be doing, and watched my own disinterest in my course grow. Eventually, I passed all my exams - did well, too! - and tried working in a solicitor's office (a type of attorney) for the summer.
I HATED it!
That clinched it. I gulped the bile, and told Mam and Dad that I wanted to leave college to go back to high-school for a year and re-take the Leaving Cert. It was actually pretty funny, because that very evening, Dawson (of the TV-show fame) told HIS parents that he was leaving college too. The reactions were pretty similar, his ("Oh Dawson, we'll always support you honey, no matter what....") and mine ("You're WHAT? No you're not..."). But they came round to the idea, supported me, and nine long and bloody months of social deprivation and constant tiredness later, here I am. Grades and all!
So, having experienced college life in this country, befriended loads of Americans lost in a distant land, and seen what medicine is like here (albeit over the shoulder of my friend), I think I'm in a pretty damn good position to answer a few questions.

Holy ****, I'm rambling. Blame the caffeine. Anyway......

All your travel questions, what adaptors to bring, is the food good/bad/inedible, etc., could really be answered by looking up www.lonelyplanet.com. The Thorntree Boards there are particularly helpful. I also read a Frommer's Guide to Hanging Out in Dublin once, and it seemed reasonable, if not a bit touristy. Google it and see. Each college also maintains an International Office, and it's their job to answer your questions, no matter how anal. Although I'd hold off on the tuna one for a while........ The only major differences I've found is that Americans LOVE our bread, and hate our ketchup: we put vinegar or something into it. I dunno......

As for the course questions, I can help with what I know, a.k.a. the ones regarding UCD. Some of this stuff is pretty pertinent for all the other courses as well. Now, I got my registration pack from UCD the other day, and it informed me of some stuff, and confirmed more. The "Important Date" stuff seems relevant enough: on Monday the 1st of Sept., we are reminded that we have a week to get tested for Hepatitis B, etc. That's pretty straightforward, although it may differ for you international people.....
My 1st official day is on Wednesday the 10th of September. I have an orientation at 10.00, and this differs depending on whether you're doing the Foundation Year (basic science, for most Irish school-leavers) or the 1st Medical Year (like me, and probably all of you, seeing as how you all have degrees).
Anyway, there are campus tours at 11.30. Tours of what, I dunno. UCD is an ugly concrete jungle, reminiscent of a nuclear bunker or Heathrow Airport. UCG, the college I was at, is a pretty picture in comparison. Sniff.
There's a Welcome Reception at 1.00, which I imagine is a chance for the faculty to meet us. Then we have registration at 14.30. Now, there're two possibilities here. In Galway, I had to queue for 4hrs, but my friend who started Veterinary in UCD last year found she only had to queue for half an hour. Best bring a pair of comfortable shoes to be sure! Computer Account Registration follows immediately after. I don't really know how it'll work for ye, but I know we have to bring every damn bit of paper we own! Letter of Offer of College Place, Original Birth Cert./Passport, Receipt for Fees, and so on. Beauracracy!!!

The next day, Thursday 11th, we have an academic advisory meeting at 12.00. I assume this, like any other, is the usual crap of welcome to UCD med-school, behave like doctors, you have a long road ahead, collect your timetables on the way out. Then we have to register AGAIN with the faculty (don't ask me why). Finally, we have the Friday, Saturday and Sunday off and lectures officially begin on Monday September 15th 2003. Most of you, who will be entering the 1st Medical Year, will have these first lectures in Earlsfort Terrace. I don't know Dublin all that well, but I do know that this is near Stephen's Green, i.e. the centre of town, i.e a good 1hr walk into the city. I understand that a lot if not all of our lectures will be there, so I envisage me spending a lot of money on bus fares!

Anyway, what else. Lemme see, I assume you've got the same course outline and booklist I have. It looks like we'll be doing Basic Biology and Anatomy, etc. for 18months. This module is called [Systems One - Normal Human Biology], and comprises "Basic Concepts" for the first Semester, then after Christmas we have Personal and Population Health 1 & 2, Cardiovascular, Respiratory and Renal Biology. So, one subject before, four after. Exams are in the summer in this, our first year. Then in the 2nd Medical Year, i.e. twelve months time, we have Gastrointestinal & Liver, Endocrine/Reproductive and Neuroscience/Locomotor Biology. This will take us up to Christmas 2004. (When I say Biology, I read it as being Biophysics, Histology, Physiology, Anatomy, Biochemistry, Embryology, Basic Clinical Skills, and so on....)
After 2004, i.e once we get into our 2nd Medical Year, Semester 2, we get into the good stuff... Diseases affecting the various systems studied, pathology, etc. This is known as [Systems Two - Biology of Disease States]. Then in our final three years we study loads of other subjects in addition to being on wards (Yahoo!).

Now, what else... Most med students I know enjoy a brilliant social life, at least in the first year or two. That is to say, they still go out and enjoy themselves, but don't overdo it and calm down before everyone else in preparation for exam time. Highlights of the year include the Med Ball and the various Rag weeks. Yes, you will probably drink a lot, but drinking occupies a different social function over here, as far as I can see. It's difficult to explain, but having a quiet pint after a tough exam is almost customary. I dunno, you'll soon see for yourself I suppose. As regards books, if you have bought them already, fair enough. If not, DON'T! Firstly, you'll have to lug them on a transatlantic haul, and maybe get charged extra for the baggage weight. Secondly, from both my own personal experience and those of other med students I've talked to, a lot of the stuff they tell you buy on college reading lists is not all that necessary. Sure, you will have to buy some if not most of these books. But some you might never use, or consult only infrequently, and if the library doesn't have a copy, one copy between friends is usually fine. My advice? Wait until you're a week or two into your course, and you can get advice from those who have gone before you. Amen. If you DO decide to buy a mad stack of books, I'd nearly buy them off the internet, particuarly Amazon.co.uk, and get them delivered to Ireland. Trust me, with prices in Dublin, you'll probably make a substantial saving. Finally, you will probably be able to get a good few second hand. That said, it's up to you........

Next, DO NOT even ATTEMPT to study before you come over here. That runs entirely against the grain of the typical Irish student, and will be met with deep-resentment and even fear. (ah, no, not really, but seriously, you should enjoy the last of your summer.)

Finally, I'm not familiar with any UCD Student Webpages (yet!) but have a root around the pages and especially the boards of my old alma-mater, Galway on www.sin.ie They're not only informative of Third-Level life in this country, they're often a great laugh as well! See if you can spot me on one of the picture pages.........
 
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Now, what have I left out? Hmmm..... UCD is on the south side of the city. Dublin is divided in two by the River Liffey, the North Side is traditionally represented as the 'rough' side, while the SouthSide is looked upon as the "Posh" side. But not as posh as Trinity. Many 'country-folk', me among them, hate the thought of going to Trinity. This relates to our deep-rooted (and entirely irrational, in this day and age) resentment of what is (or at least, was) regarded as a Protestant/English Institution. It's just....well, it's just so damned.....hob-nobby. Ah no, it's all in good fun, and the legendary rivalry between UCD and the "Trinners" is always meant in good spirit (usually ;-)

Holy ****, I AM rambling! Anyway, I hope this was of some help and/or interest to some of ye, and not too rambly. I'm off to bed.


(Ironically, as I'm typing this, the Rose of Tralee is on the TV. The ultimate expression of hokey-Irishness. To those of you who don't know what that is, thank your lucky stars. To those of you that do, I'm off to find me Lucky Charms. Begorrah.....)
 
Hey PaddyofNine, thanks for the bit of Irish insight! I'm also starting the 1st Medical Year at UCD. I'm from Cape Breton, Canada. Guess I'll see ya in a couple of weeks!
 
No problem, DLach.

I actually cannot wait to get started. I'm working in a factory in my hometown (making cathethers, ironically enough!) and it's been boring for the summer, but these last two weeks are sheer DRUDGERY!
Anyway, fees are fees, so I'm off to work and I'll see ya in less than 2 weeks! Yeah!
 
Hey guys, how much money should we allocate for books for the first year (of the fifth year program)?
 
hey paddy and dlach,
i'm definitely looking forward to meeting you both in a few weeks..i also hate my job, and ironically, it isn't anywhere near enough to help me pay my fees but at least i only have 3 days left! starting to get more excited!
 
Paddy, good on ya, congrats! Who won the Rose? I only watched Monday night. Me: "whattya mean anyone in the world can be a rose? How can there be a Dubai Rose???" As far as UCD vs. Trinity...well, you oiks have a lot to learn :). YAH. Hehe nah. I've got some good UCD friends, so at least some of you are ok :).

I'm actually one of those people who came over for my Junior Year Abroad and loved it so much that I knew I was coming back here for med school. But I have to say, I saw the whole Tuna and Mayo and sweetcorn thing done by my whole rowing team - they ate a bowl of the stuff for dinner and I was sooo grossed out. But thankfully, that combo doesn't come in a can, as far as I know of. YUCK.

Berkely, it really depends. Don't buy books yet, but maybe get a pricing on them from amazon.com or something. It really comes to personal preference...you might like a book that happens to run a bit more expensive. You're definitely going to need at least one anatomy book (you'll probably end up getting a text book, an atlas, and some other sort of review book (I recommend one called Instant Anatomy, really helps you learn vasculature and nerve systems, as well as lymphatics). You'll also need a physiology book. You probably can get by without a biochemistry book. I'd say overestimate and bring 500 for books. There's no way in hell you're going to spend 500, unless you go overboard, but then hey, you can either save it for future books, or have a bit of extra pocket money.


Best of luck to all the UCD people starting this month. I can't believe you guys get to start already. PM me and maybe we can meet up a bit :).
 
The Dublin Rose won it. Still, I suppose they must win something this year (they f*ucked up their football quest early on in the season!).

Just home from one work, and hitting off to work in the bar for four hours and earn rent money! (My main job pays for some of my fees, my moonlighter for some of my rent!).
I'm not sure, but it can't be a good thing to be entering a medical career after swearing an hour ago that if I see ONE more cathether.......

anyway,

later
 
Originally posted by student.ie
In theory you get three clinical years. In reality you get two years that are almost completely a waste of time (standing in the hall at the hospital isn't all that educational) and one year of clinical work.

There are some people on this site that constantly pump up the Irish system. They are the majority of posters here, but a minority of students in Ireland. Most people that I know who went to do electives in the US or Canada found their level of education an embarrasment as they knew less after 5th Med than the US students did after M3.

The system is quite poor. Their is little to no organization or supervision to your education. They often don't show up when they're supposed to teach you, then they're ****s about it if you don't know something. Occasionally there is a doc who's interested in teaching and actually shows up to do it, but they're relatively rare.

The exams are written so as to be as subjective as possible, and you cannot see your graded paper or the marking standard. In theory you could demand to see your paper by applying to the dean's office or something, but you would never do that for fear of retaliation in the future. (It would be easy for them to screw you over because the exams are subjective.) The Irish never question anything no matter how messed up it is, and they get really pissed off if you question anything.

I'm sure the cheerleaders will now dismiss all of this, but it's the reality of Med school in Ireland as experience by the majority of those I taked to (including students at UCD, Trinity, UCC, and RCSI).
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I'm a British student who completed undergrad. in the U.K., then came to the U.S......so I'm the opposite way around from you. I would like to emphasise that while times may be hard for you, what you're describing is a mere difference in educational style between two cultures.

While you complain that "exams are written so as to be as subjective as possible" and there is"...no organization or supervision to your education", I found that, in the U.S. system, there is much more spoon-feeding while you're in training and more complaining and bickering about points (that's why you don't get to see your exam script in the U.K.). If you know your stuff, it won't matter! This probably reflects the fact that you pay so much for education in the U.S. and it's almost free for us in the U.K. I found the U.S. system very hard to adapt to after being used to reading much of the lecture material and looking up textbooks myself.....I couldn't understand why Americans got so angry if they weren't given a hand-out.

However, I made the best of the system and the most of what was on offer. In the end, you extract the goodness out of both cultures. I concluded that neither system is better or worse (I get asked all the time!!), but they're...just...different. I really hope your bitterness subsides and you can focus on what you left the U.S. for.....to become a doctor. Things will look brighter in a few years, but please try to think about how your pessimism impacts others who are about to leave for Ireland. I?m sure you would have expected (or demanded) the same courtesy.
 
Well said, scottish chap. For those coming over here, you will find some of your colleagues quite bitter and pessimistic. I think that's unavoidable - those are the people who came here for the wrong reasons, and didn't really want to be here in the first place. I have met people who came over here very negative and quite annoying, but after spending some time here and opening their minds, they've come to really like the education over here. But you're always going to get negative people - such is the nature of some student doctors.

As people start arriving, just words of advice. As you go through Orientation (Freshers) Week, make an effort to join clubs, something interesting and non-medical (sports, a society, whatever). It gives you a life outside of your classmates and introduces you to very cool people that you would never normally have a chance to meet. Not only will it let you become good mates with Irish people, but people from other countries as well (England, Norway, Spain, France, Finland, Sweden, etc.) While at first you will hang around other Americans and Canadians (that's natural, people always go for the comfort and familiarity thing first), don't become latched on to them and isolate yourself from other people. The Americans who do that end up some of the unhappiest and loneliest.

ENJOY!! Feel free to PM, maybe we can have a "reunion"
 
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I hope my pessimistic (realistic) view doesn't negatively impact others who are about to leave for Ireland too much. I hope it discourages them from going at all or at least discourages next years batch. I could have used a discouraging word a few years ago.
What I would have expected (or demanded) is an honest account of the situation. What I got was a glowing review of a system that, while fine for locals, really stinks for us.
 
Originally posted by student.ie
....of a system that, while fine for locals, really stinks for us.
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I'd love to know why the system is fine for us "locals" and not for the North American cohort?
 
It's fine for locals who stay at home after graduation. It's fine for them because they won't have a significant role in patient management for years anyway and won't be consultants for 10-20 years if ever. They can learn as slowly as they want.

When we go to the U.S., we're expected to take our own patients and manage them ourselves (with some supervision) from day one. We aren't well prepared for that.

An entirely separate difference that makes it fine for you is that you don't have the stigma of being an FMG because you are foreign. If we go abroad for med school, it is assumed that we were undeserving of a medical education in the U.S. For you, it is obvious why you studied there.
 
Originally posted by student.ie
I hope my pessimistic (realistic) view doesn't negatively impact others who are about to leave for Ireland too much. I hope it discourages them from going at all or at least discourages next years batch. I could have used a discouraging word a few years ago.
What I would have expected (or demanded) is an honest account of the situation. What I got was a glowing review of a system that, while fine for locals, really stinks for us.
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Okay, I'm a foreigner (from Britain) and I live in the states now so I'm going give you my opinion. You really need to stop being so self-focused and negative...for your own health if for nothing else.

My advice to you is that you should either quit the programme or consider not practicing as a clinician; perhaps consider research.

Any physician or health care worker knows that flexibility and the attitude one adopts when faced with unusual or new situations is absolutely paramount...you appear to lack this to an astronomical degree. This is your view which is great, but you're not even trying to be diplomatic so I have to believe that you?re in the minority with your opinion. I live in the U.S. but graduated from a top university in the U.K. and I found the transition to U.S. post-grad. training very, very difficult. However, I learned to adapt, I tried to understand the system and it made me a much better person. I don't understand how you can be so stubborn as to just give up.

You don't need to be a genius to be a doctor - you just need a little compassion and you do need the ability to get along with people. One of my best friends in a cardiac surgeon in Manchester and his grades were very mediocre when he applied and stayed that way throughout med. school. As a positive person who listens to advice and instruction, he has done very well and is thoroughly competent in his field. This 10-20 year time-frame you quote is a completely inaccurate figure for physicians in the U.K., so please make sure your facts are correct before you make such statements.....this, again, is killing any credibility that your pessimistic views have in this forum. Remember, people don't care how much you know until they first know how much you care! Good luck.
 
I pretty much fail to see how the "glowing review" is dishonest. No system is perfect, but I find myself and the other foreigners in my class very pleased as to the standard we've received to date. Your experiences must be quite different from ours, but I don't think this is a reason to call the whole Irish system dishonest. Each system has its good and bad points, nothing's perfect.

There might be some stigma, but from what I've seen, there isn't that much concerning Irish grads. There's a very large number of Irish-grad physicians in the US, the reputation of the Irish schools is terrific, thanks to the competency of those Irish-trained physicians. I really don't think an inferiority complex needs to enter the equation at all.
 
Has anyone asked student.ie which school he/she is attending? If not, umm, is it a big deal if I ask?

Just curious. I'm heading to Ireland in 2 weeks (UCC).

Thanks
 
No. No one has asked me which school I attend. I won't say.

sporter1992a, I have some advice for you, and you can take it or leave it. You should start school at UCC, but go ahead and reapply to schools in the US or Canada. If you start over as a first year in the US next year, you'll graduate the same year as if you stay at UCC, but you'll be better off. If you stay in Ireland, don't waste two years (3&4). Go see patients even if the doc doesn't show up or is there and doesn't make you do anything. You may not have anyone to discuss the patient with, but you could read up on your own or possibly talk with a 6th Med or intern. I don't know how it would go over, but it might work. You'll probably spend most of your time having tea or standing in the hall anyway, but I wanted to encourage you to do better. It's hard to be that self-motivated, but you need to be. It isn't ideal to have to do it on your own, but at least you wouldn't be completely wasting your time.
 
Originally posted by student.ie
No. No one has asked me which school I attend. I won't say. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid to think someone might try to screw me over for writing what I do on this site, but my fear might not be paranoia at all. Either way, sorry.

Scottish Chap, while I may have a pessimistic attitude about my education, it isn't fair to assume that it extends to all aspects of my life and work. I went over with a hopeful attitude which has since been crushed, but I still make the most of the opportunities I have. I just don't think future applicants should be as mis-informed as I was when I got started. You also prove my point by saying that you had a "very, very difficult" transition to the U.S. That's exactly what I've been trying to warn future students about!

I agree with leorl that the Irish (and British) schools have a good reputation, but that doesn't change the assumption that you were less qualified than all the U.S. students ( whether legacy admits, 'affirmative action' admission, or otherwise).

sporter1992a, I have some advice for you, and you can take it or leave it. You should start school at UCC, but go ahead and reapply to schools in the US or Canada. If you start over as a first year in the US next year, you'll graduate the same year as if you stay at UCC, but you'll be better off. If you stay in Ireland, don't waste two years (3&4). Go see patients even if the doc doesn't show up or is there and doesn't make you do anything. You may not have anyone to discuss the patient with, but you could read up on your own or possibly talk with a 6th Med or intern. I don't know how it would go over, but it might work. You'll probably spend most of your time having tea or standing in the hall anyway, but I wanted to encourage you to do better. It's hard to be that self-motivated, but you need to be. It isn't ideal to have to do it on your own, but at least you wouldn't be completely wasting your time.
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Student.ie, why on earth would you give advice to someone which implies: waste a ton of money by doing year 1 of med. school in the U.K and say goodbye to your family and friends for a year, but it's better to go back to the U.S? That?s ludicrous.

It's a well-known fact (you wanted honesty, right?) that those individuals in med. school in the U.K. that are U.S. citizens are there for one of two reasons:
1. They WANT to me there because they like the culture and they want to be doctors - regardless of where it is. Most people fall into this category.
2. They cannot (be honest now) get into an M.D. program in the U.S. and they see this as a better opportunity than doing a D.O. or obtaining a Caribbean M.D. It is a better opportunity.

The fact that you mention "FMG" stigma, makes one wonder if there is a fundamental pride issue with you; this WOULD be a disaster as a physician. You say very obviously that the medical school curriculum in Ireland caters to those individuals that come from there. That goes without saying and I think that most people applying there from the U.S. know this.....if this is your main complaint, then perhaps you should focus on that and not on what you deem to be a poor education. I hope things get better for you and you fulfill your dream.
 
I'd advise them to go but reapply in the States because
1) it's better than just sitting around a year and waiting to reapply
2) they'd be well prepared for M1 when they start in the U.S. next year
3) they'd get started now because the reapplication might not be successful. Going abroad is better than nothing, and going to Ireland is better in reputation (if not in education) than going to the Carribean.
4) it would cost less to go to Ireland for a year and to a U.S. school for 4 years than it would cost to go to Ireland for 5 years.
5) they'd always regret not reapplying, because of they'd always wonder 'what if?'
6) they'd have the positive experiences of living abroad while avoiding the negatives.

Also, I never complained that they cater to Irish students. I WARN that it's not just a minor difference of methods but a much worse situation than one might expect. I never even said they cater to Irish students. I said "It's fine for locals". That isn't to say that the education is good for them. It's just that they don't need a good education since they don't have any resposibility for years anyway.
 
Student.ie,
Whether your opinions about the Irish system are valid or not, your bitterness clouds any point that you may be trying to communicate. The only thing you succeed in convincing anyone of is the fact that you have some issues to work out. Stop assuming your situation applies to everyone else. That's all.
 
My bitterness about American admissions is a separate issue, and I'll try to keep that off of this forum from now on.

My bitterness about the quality of my school however...

I don't know what you're getting at when you say to stop assuming my situation applies to everyone else. Doesn't it apply to everyone else? If not, what's the difference? I guess it doesn't apply to those with EU citizenship, but I'm directing my coments to American applicants.
 
Originally posted by student.ie
My mention of FMG stigma should indicate to you that I'm not sugar-coating any of this. But also, there IS a pride issue with me. I'm pissed of that lesser applicants get accepted year after year because of preference and connections, then you (the better applicant) get stigmatized when you go abroad! And the G** *darn* Supreme Court and Sandra *sleeping with* Day O'Connor says that discrimination is ok. *SLEEP WITH* THAT!
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student.ie -- where's the link to discrimination law? Are you referring to the discrimination allowed in employment that's not based on race, sex, religion, national origin, physical disability, and age? Or to the rejection of affirmative action based on quotas because quotas themselves are discriminatory?! You sound like you're favoring legislation that abolishes ALL or NO form of discrimination...

-pitman
 
Pitman, I don't know if there's a link to discrimination law here. You should have no problem finding a discussion group if you're seeking one though.
 
how did we go from student.ie's disdain for his irish medical education to discrimination law? in any case, i think we get your point pal...you aren't satisfied and in your opinion people should stay away....but out of generosity, would you mind giving it a rest now for those of us who are starting at the irish schools in a couple weeks? it's too late for us now, as i'm not going to forfeit tens of thousands of dollars based on your opinion (however accurate it might turn out to be)...your point has been taken.
 
I'm simply responding to the other posters?, posting people?, something. If they didn't want to talk about it, I assume they'd stop addressing my points.

How about a new topic: Is Irish medical education good for Americans? Just kidding.
 
Originally posted by student.ie
Pitman, I don't know if there's a link to discrimination law here. You should have no problem finding a discussion group if you're seeking one though.
Click to expand...

I don't favor legislation that abolishes discrimination. It's already in the constitution...
Click to expand...


Wasn't looking for a hypertext link, but for a logical one, between your reference to discrimination law and your claimed experiences...which is why I presented a couple possibilities (Civil Rights Act of 1964 & Grutter v. Bollinger), neither of which link to your argument. `" ...nor shall any State deprive any person... within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"` says nothing about whether nepotism is ok, nor does it say that public institutions cannot seek (any) diversity. On the one hand, if your Irish-school-tirade has nothing to do with race, sex, religion, national origin, physical disability, or age, in the US, then it falls outside the realm of any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution (again, is your beef with the '64 interpretation?). On the other hand, if your claimed link is between a *legal* definition of discrimination, and a (any?) colloquial use, then reductio ad absurdum no school or employer could "discriminate" against applicants based, e.g., on grades or achievement scores. Thus, you have no link to your tirade. To make the link WOULD effectively require legislation, since the courts will not stretch that far to make it.


You must be a fan of Sandra shagging Day O'Connor
Click to expand...


I am not a fan of affirmative action, so your presumptiom is wrong. I argue what I mean -- here, with your attempt to *link* your depicted life to discrimination law -- you're reaching.

-pitman
 
It worked, eh? The subject change I mean. Now we're bashing me instead of Irish schools.
 
Originally posted by student.ie
Pitman. The link is pride being an issue (brought up by Friendly) and my not wanting to be viewed as a lesser applicant when there are many even lower applicants attending U.S. med schools who got in because of racial discrimination or nepotism or blind luck. We obviously disagree about what discrimination is (seek diversity by what means?), but I actually own a dictionary.
Click to expand...

Ahh, thank you for the answer to my question without comments about shagging, we are now somewhat in agreement (at least about racial preferences in US med schools).

The question you pose ("...by what means?") was actually part of my point -- straying outside of, say, the boundary of the '64 Act and/or quotas, is arbitrary and a slippery slope (usu. leading to absurdity), since many reasonable forms of discrimination, such as one based on achievement test scores, do "discriminate" against (and for) racial groups.

However, my bad for not seeing the earlier link -- my first response was an actual (albeit pointed) inquiry in response to what I must say was some hostility, my second in response to aspersions was a tad more hostile, this one in kind is intended to be conciliatory ;).

Aside from prior hostility in this thread (which I realize can easily escalate in response to that of others), I personally do value your posts, your "alternative" view.

-pitman
 
Student.ie you are in the minority hun. I dont know of anyone who is as bitter and hates ireland as much as you, and believe me I've had my times when ive bitched. Also alot of us go to irish schools because we get into six year programs straight out of high school so there is no stigma for us not getting into us med schools.
Your only young once and to get to spend that time in europe as well as getting an education is the best of both worlds for most people. I mean the majority of us know that we are going to live in the US, seriously whats 5 years? Ireland isnt some 3 world **** hole. So how can you honestly sit there and say that most people dont want to be in ireland.
The reason I even heard about the irish schools was from my dad who was extremely impressed with people educated in the irish system. I did alot of research before I came.
I dont understand why you feel as if others wont.
Im curious to know what you would have done if you hadn't have come to ireland?
oh yeah im also dying to know what school you go to, and come on now none of us are going to actually spend time trying to "track you down" or "ruin" any career that your might have in ireland.
 
Originally posted by student.ie
Pitman. The link is pride being an issue (brought up by Friendly) and my not wanting to be viewed as a lesser applicant when there are many even lower applicants attending U.S. med schools who got in because of racial discrimination or nepotism or blind luck. We obviously disagree about what discrimination is (seek diversity by what means?), but I actually own a dictionary.

Scottish chap, I was just kidding about those topics.
I HAVE heard Irish people complain about everyone going to British Tesco vs. Dunnes though which is why it came to mind. I couldn't care less personally.
The Irish do care about that stuff. I recommend that Scotish Chap walk through the streets of Dublin, or better yet Limerick, at night wearing a Rangers Jersey (he could give his 'part of Ireland falls under the umbrella of Britain' speech, then if he wakes up from the coma he might not have so many positive things to say about the Emerald Isle.

Also, lack of pessimism doesn't imply virtue., and you don't know how I spend my time.
I never share my opinions with Irish physicians. That would be career suicide.
I sometimes repel Irish girls, but not always ;) I only brought that up trying to say something positive about the place. Geez.

It worked, eh? The subject change I mean. Now we're bashing me instead of Irish schools. -but you no very little about me, yet feel ready to judge. Says something about you?
Click to expand...


To all the folks that are about to leave for Irish medical schools: read this person's recent posts and you'll see that not only is his opinion and experience very isolated and unique, his pride and bitterness taint everything he talks about....decide for yourself how much credibility his opinions have.

Furthermore, reading your incorrect description of Irish culture is very amusing. It would appear that you haven't mixed with the locals at all.
 
I'm certainly in the minority as far as this website goes. Among students however I don't think I am. I honestly think (know) that most people there don't want to be in Ireland. It's not that they hate it, it's just a fall back position for most people.
 
Originally posted by student.ie


Also also, that's complete *junk* about people being abroad because they want to be there. Virtually everyone goes because they didn't get in in the States. Most who claim they want to be there a just lying. Maybe the students there cannot get in in the U.S., or maybe they could have gotten if they tried again or applied to lesser schools. Lots of people I know in Ireland had GPA's and MCATs better than most U.S. med students, and they should have tried applying again. I'm just saying try again before you settle. I *darn* sure wish I had.
Click to expand...

Well, on these boards you've just met your first colleague who came over because she wanted to. I spent my junior year abroad here and fell in love with this place, talked to a lot of med students when I was here and decided that I liked Ireland's system more than I would the US system. I went to a heavily premed school and could not see myself happy with the US med system and with the type of people that attend med school in the US. I'd suggest for you not to be so closed minded. Those coming here aren't necessarily here for the reason you are. In my class, the Americans and Canadians over here did have better scores...and far better extracurriculars than most US applicants. They were not rejected from US schools but CHOSE to come to Ireland OVER US schools for an enriching abroad experience.

As a matter of fact, I only know of 1 in my class who came because she was outright rejected from US schools (poor scores). And some did not take the MCAT because they're non-trad students with Masters and PhD's who didn't want to waste anymore time.

I believe in the past that rejection from US schools was a major reason for coming here, without the stigma of Caribbean schools. But while that still may be a factor, I think it's changing. I think people are starting to realize they can travel, enrich their lives AND complete medical education.
 
Wow. student.ie, i find it hard not to think that your outlook on life is very jaded. I'm not exactly sure why it's this way, but I hope you've found some happiness somewhere in being over here.

I do somewhat agree with student.ie's aggravation with the affirmative action bit, although let's not bring the aa debate here. There's plenty of pros and cons. But student.ie, you seem to think you're going to be viewed as a lesser applicant just because you're an IMG. While that may be true to some degree, I don't think you have much to be worried about, as residency programs seem to be quite impressed with Irish IMGs back home. Will you get into the most competitive programs? Probably not, but you will be able to gain the same respect and career moves as the next physician.

If you consider Ireland 3rd-world, try spending some time in places in Africa. It's a bit preposterous of you to compare Ireland to 3rd world countries when those countries are in dire need of aid, while Ireland is quite self-sufficient with a stable government. Nowhere is it as advanced as in the US. That's just something you have to deal with when you get here. I think it's much better this way, you have to learn to be resourceful and less-reliant on technology - you actually have to think. And what am I talking about really, because we there's the same things here as in the US, just not as convenient to get to or not in as plentiful a supply.

I really wish you could meet my class, student.ie. All of the North Americans really like it here. We WANT to be here. Several of us actually stayed in Ireland this summer because we weren't that bothered about going home. I hope in your last year you're able to find something pleasurable to take back from your experiences here. I already have tons.
 
Just wanted to add. student.ie, nepotism would have happened even if you had stayed in the US. Do you think just because you're an FMG, people with connections will get places? That's not the reason. Medicine in some ways is still about who you know, networks. If you'd stayed in the US, some other sap may still have been chosen over you because of a college legacy. The reason is not discrimination against you because of you being an FMG. It's because nepotism still exists in medicine, and it's very hard to change the status quo in this field.
 
We agree about this I think, and I never claimed this discrimination resulted from being an IMG. It causes more USIMG's to exist, but IMG difficulties are separate from and additional to those problems once you've gone abroad.
 
Ouch. Student.ie, you're damaging the reputation of my country as you type! ;-)


Ah no, I don't claim to understand you or even know the first thing about you, but you seem to really hate this country. Please, we're definitely not third world, and I'm actually kinda sickened by the description of Irish women. You say that it would be career suicide to reveal your true feelings to an Irish doc? To be honest, I think it would be social suicide to reveal them to an Irish person. I mean, come on man, we can't be ALL bad? Or don't you agree? Have you had any beneficial experiences over here at all?
 
Oh poor student.ie, another upper-middle class white male whose life's been ruined by affirmative action. When will people learn that they are the truly disadvantaged group!
I've been shedding tears for you all morning.
 
PaddyofNine, I don't have any problem with your country. Your country let me study medicine when mine would have left me as another upper-middle class white male whose life's been ruined by affirmative action.

I wouldn't even say that Irish doctors aren't well trained. I think that if you take two 35 year old doctors, the Irish one and the American one might have pretty equal expertise. The problem for us is that the Irish system allows more time for their doctors to reach that level of expertise. When we spend 5 years on the Irish track then jump over to the American one, we are behind. We aren't well prepared for residency after just attending med school. Most of the Irish doctors who made such a good impression on their collegues in the States probably spent several years training in Ireland after med school before they went abroad. This is all grand for you who can become a great doctor before/if you go to the States, but it creates a problem for those of us who aren't eligible for the necessary additional training.
 
Originally posted by student.ie
Your country let me study medicine when mine would have left me as another upper-middle class white male whose life's been ruined by affirmative action.


The problem for us is that the Irish system allows more time for their doctors to reach that level of expertise. When we spend 5 years on the Irish track then jump over to the American one, we are behind. We aren't well prepared for residency after just attending med school. Most of the Irish doctors who made such a good impression on their collegues in the States probably spent several years training in Ireland after med school before they went abroad.
Click to expand...

Hmm, about the first sentence. I could see why you'd feel that way. But on the flip side, don't blame your problems on affirmative action. I wouldn't say it's a wonderful program, but I wouldn't blame your life's problems on it either. AA does provide opportunites for people who otherwise would never get a chance due to social and economic circumstances, which happen to be a bit race-based. Do I agree with it? Not really, but it's a good reward for those who really put an effort in but are disadvantaged. There are specific spots alloted for URMs, so you wouldn't be competiting with them anyway.

And actually, the Irish-trained I was thinking of who made good impressions were 4th and 5th year students who went over for rotations.
 
Leorl. Did you read The Pill Counter's message?

Also, you are completely uninformed about the realities of 'affirmative action'. The vast majority of recipients are wealthy 'minorities'. This has very little to do with Ireland though. I doubt anyone goes to the link 'anyone hear from Ireland??' hoping to read about racist programs and nepotism. On the other hand, I can't resist responding when you write messages like that last one.
 
I'll place some comments.

Opinions of all viewpoints are valued. However, it does get diminished when inflammatory language is used. Anyways, setting that aside.

There are some things which I feel could use a viewpoint appended.

#1: There is zero way Ireland can be accurately described as third world, or second world.

#2: As someone who is on the other side of graduation from Ireland and now in back on this side of the pond in residency, I can say that in my opinion, the preparation is more than satisfactory. Most of my classmates are from different schools on this side of the pond, and some of the residents trained in North America when don't know what a lochia is, or where to palpate a posterior fornix, or all the management of pre-eclampic inpatients, whereas I was slower than most during the first few days, as I got used to their dictation system used in the university, and had to do some review of abortion procedures. But I specifically requested in my letter for selecting a residency program, that I wanted classmates each with their own strengths and backgrounds (not everyone trained exactly same) because a big slice of the academics in residency is learning from your colleagues, and that is more difficult if everyone has exactly the same strengths and weaknesses.

#3: Depending on your college of attendence in Ireland, there is a boatload of time off from the academic year: month for Dec, 3 weeks spring, 8 weeks summer. If a student is dissatisfied with some clinical instruction in some areas of their hospital, compared to North America, there is ample swatches of time for interested students to train in most countries of the world (summer and Christmas/southern hemisphere summer, a large slice of medical schools don't have students in them, so can take candidates who show an interest). Better yet a mix of electives, travel, vacation, and research and independent study over the five years.

#4: There are some people who are unhappy in medical school for whatever reason. It is important to be aware that this contingent exists at many medical schools, and thus can just as easily exist in Ireland. In my interview tour in the States last year, I would ask some of the residents at a program, "Why did you come here instead of going to <your old medschool's> residency program?" (which I was interested to know of them, since I would have an interview at their old medschool's program also) and they would say "Because I hated it. It was <whatever, but usually malignant or cutthroat>." Unhappy alumni do have a role in decision making, but their itemized complaints need to be looked at specifically, and compared with other opinions, to differentiate well-grounded compaints from an overall poor onlook on their life and surroundings.

Best wishes,
roo
 
I'm going to dip my toe in this debate (and hope my foot doesn't get ripped off).

Tesco Vs Dunnes
Good god people, who the hell cares? I couldn't give a damn if something is Irish or British (probably because I'm both). I go to Tescos sometimes because it has a better choice while I go to Dunnes because it's nearer to me.

Affirmative action
I actually hate skewing admissions in favour of minorities although I can understand that it is done in good faith. I would prefer if admissions to medicines were done on qualifications and possibly an interview. One thing I would like to encourage is people from less well off backgrounds applying to medicine. However, I think this should be done by providing more generous grants and not by lowering admission requirements. While I'm thinking about it, does anyone have any opinion on government plans to make medicine a post-grad for all Irish students. My opinion is that med will be so expensive only the well-off will be able to afford it.

Irish Education System
There are some major flaws with the Irish medical system. Sometimes I believe consultants don't exist because they're never around. Much of the teaching is done by interns and SHOs whose job is not to teach medical students. I actually spent more time in hospitals waiting for doctors to show up than actually doing anything important. In the end, you're asking nurses if you can do examine any patient. There are probably positive points to the Irish system but obviously I can't compare it to other systems that I haven't experienced.

Staying in Ireland or Going back to America
Well, obviously if you get an offer in America after spending a year in med in Ireland and you don't like the country, take it. I know 2 Americans who did just that. If you want a post in America, of course it is better to have an America degree and not an Irish degree. You could also say that having an Irish degree is better than an American one if you want a post in Ireland. A lot of students do come to Ireland because they like the country and/or it's cheaper.
 
Look. The last thing I want to turn this into is an AA debate. I very much gathered that you do hate AA, I was just putting in a caution not to blame all your misery and problems on such an institution. I'm not denying that a lot of wealthy minorities do get to take advantage of it, but on the other hand, there are at least some disadvantaged people who benefit from it. I'm not arguing either way for or against, since in my eyes there are a few pros and quite a few cons. Undeserving minority? I wouldn't agree with that at all, and would say that comment borders on racism. Those URMs become doctors, trained the same was as the rest of the US population albeit needing lower scores. I haven't heard of more incidence of malpractice or negligence from URMs compared to regular applicants.

You want the opportunity to compete for those spots. How do you think the Irish population feels, as international students like us comprise 50% of the medical student population, whereas US med schools won't even admit any international students? 50% is an extremely huge percentage, and half of those are for US med school rejects who're able to buy their way into spots. These spots are allotted to international medical students - the Irish don't compete against us. But at the same time, their quota is capped because of us. You're taking advantage of a system that you feel so embittered against. URMS, aa, nepotism I can't say would even account for 50% of the US med population. I don't see the Irish detesting your right to be and study here, not to mention the injustice your attitude does towards those who WANT to be here.
 
Hi everyone...
I just wanted to say that if anyone has any questions about UCD I would be happy to answer them for you. The best way to contact me would probably be via email at [email protected] or [email protected]. I'm in Ireland at the moment and will be here until September 4th, 2003 so if you are here before that time I would be happy to show you around. I'll be back on the 15th of September (yes, the same day classes start :-D) so you get here later than the 4th I can meet you afterwards. Don't worry though about coming over and not knowing where to go or what to do because there is going to be a very large orientation session for all international and Irish students and all questions of your questions will be answered. I'm sure if you have had any contact with Carl Lusby you already know this. Well I just wanted to say hi and give you guys a way to contact me if you have any questions. Hope you are all enjoying the last few weeks of your summer vacation.
Christina
 
Great idea Christina....anyone needs the same for Trinity let me know. I arrive back the 29th of sept so some time after that...later in that week would be better for me. I know Leorl and others are already there and I am sure they would love to do the same.

Student ie....don't stress man...I know you might say that's an uninformed statement, but check out Atlantic Bridges match list for last years North Americans...I posted it much earlier on. That should provide some relief!?

The best advice I can give anyone deciding to come here...you better be self-motivated. Procrastination is a trait that can make this an extremely painful experience. That said, if you work together with the other north americans (in terms of getting back to the US....requirements... deadlines...dates....exam books for US boards etc), remain self-motivated, maintain a positive out look, integrate in to Irish culture and LISTEN to the upper meds Ireland can be an amazing experience. Are you going to be frustrated at times...you bet your a**. Are there faults in this system...yes...just as there are faults in med schools in the US, Britian, Australia...etc .

As with most things the experience is what YOU make of it. If you are searching for the negative...you'll find it!. Remember that a lot of these posts are PERSONAL perspectives people...if you throw that out and look at the facts (ie % of North Americans matching in US residencies from Irish medical schools and the quality of the residency programs they matched in) you will have less of a reason to stress.
the bostonian knacker
 
First I'd like to thank everyone who's posted to this thread. This has been a great way for me to learn more about the programs and life in Ireland. I just have a couple of questions before I make the final decision.

1. I'm a married non-trad. Will my wife have any trouble coming over with me and working? I emailed AB and asked, but no response yet. The gov't website seems to say yes, but I was wondering if any of you in Ireland knew of someone in a similar situation.

2. Is it feasible to live a little further out and catch a train in? My wife and I were thinking rent may be a bit cheaper further out, but we have no idea.

Thanks in advance for the info. Hopefully everything will work out and I'll be studying abroad again next year!
 
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