Anyone else get contradictory advice from medical schools on reapps?

[familyaerospace]

So I just submitted for round 4.

I have now heard from three schools, two I am waitlisted at and one an SDN friend attends on my third round application and I have to say some of the information is really contradictory particularly schools 2 and 3.

The more I do these rounds of applications the more I honestly wonder what is going on and if medical school is just messing with me.

School 1 - waitlisted. MCAT fine, GPA fine. No flags at all in application. Change opening line of PS and that is it. One of the strongest people on the waitlist so presumably that means I rank high on it? Perhaps get some more community service (I have thousands of hours and I can easily add another thousand that ties directly to Georgia). Try to emphasize ties to Georgia (ok that is realistic despite the fact I've lived here 15 years.)

School 2 - a DO school where a friend attends. Remove research, publications, presentations, some work (which was medically related), some community service and some other things. Consider retaking MCAT, remove several years of classes (I have 16 years of college classes), rewrite disadvantaged, rewrite PS, and considers my BS and MS fluff despite the fact in the world of DOs I have taken more science than non-science courses.

School 3 - waitlisted two years in a row. Consider retaking MCAT (ok not a surprise given that schools numbers), consider trying to improve GPA (undergrad 3.53 cgpa and 3.63 bcpm again I have hundreds of credits so movement is small, my grad gpas are higher) I was advised to consider getting a PhD and get more science courses that way since 38 courses is only average for the class and a PhD is common (!?!), get a second physician letter (ok, that is easy). Not uncommon to be waitlisted for four or five cycles (?!?) before acceptance. When I asked about school 2's advice, it turns out the things I was told to remove were the reasons I was brought in to an interview and that they said it sounded like school 2 wanted to steal me.

School 3 ranks the highest of all of them and has the highest LizzyM average and was always a reach school for me. School 1 has an almost perfect hit on their LizzyM score in comparison to mine, I think I am a little higher than their average but not by much. School 2 should have a LizzyM score similar to mine as well.

I would just love to know where school 2's information is coming from since they are such a drastic outlier. Has anyone else gotten such crazy different responses?

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[gyngyn]

Did you get your feedback from an admissions officer or from the staff? I am asking because many of these sound like stock responses not tailored to your individual application. Frankly, I am not in a state in which schools offer much feed back to unsuccessful candidates. That said, I would be surprised if any school has the resources or liability coverage to give substantive reasons for not admitting someone. Every time you apply there is an increased chance that the number of re-applications becomes a bone of contention. I have gleaned that your resources are limited but you are now approaching the point at which you are 2 SD's from the norm with regard to the number of re-applications so a major overhaul of your strategy would seem to be in order.

 

[familyaerospace]

@gyngyn

I know you probably know what schools I am talking about given the WL thread, but I am going to make anyone else who wants to know work to find out who I am talking about.

School 1 - directly from the dean who I was sitting across the table from with the director of admissions next to her. There were three of us applicants whose files were being reviewed, the only things she was not willing to do was give feedback on our interviews as well but was ok giving feedback on the rest of the application. (I also got a little bit of direct feedback from the director of admissions herself.) The dean said that it is a ranked waitlist and how they calculate it. Many people were so close that people were just thousandths of points difference. I am a two time applicant to that school (well I guess three with round four coming up), there was another guy there who had applied three times same school, he was aiming for round four... also same school. Given one of the issues that I was asked about in the interview, I know if that really is the issue, I can strengthen that easily. In fact, I asked one of my letter writers (who had previously only written to school 3) to write for school 1 and to emphasize ties to Georgia. He sent me a copy of the letter and it does help fill that hole.

School 2 - friend spoke directly to the director of admissions, took notes, emailed back a few hours later. She was actually sent a copy of my AMCAS which she went through line by line. I have page numbers and cross-references.

School 3 - directly from the director of admissions who I was on the phone with for an hour and 15 minutes today. She pulled up my application and double checked to make sure I definitely wrote about some of the things that were needed. (Which begs the question, if I didn't write about it in the first place how would she know it was something that needed to be written about?) As she flicked through the file she said with someone who has as much clinical as I do, people would expect to see another shadowing letter. I just confirmed someone who would write one. The director of admissions went through line by line today and even gave me a little feedback from the interview which apparently I walked on water during so much for the I had previously spoken to the dean last August and she said other than MCAT being a little lower than ideal, everything was about where it should be or could be expected realistically. 8 years (8 credits per semester) of near 4.0 (my only non-A was Russian), brought me up only about a tenth of a GPA point cGPA although it helped my BCPM more. One of those "Biochem couldn't hurt, but you don't have easy access so we aren't going to press it. All your sciences look fairly solid." situations.

I have another friend who is adcomm at a top 20 and his only comment about my entire application is MCAT. He doesn't understand why I don't think a 35+ is likely and doesn't understand why I can't afford a prep course. He forgets I am as broke as I am (since I always give a dollar to the homeless people near the hospital) until he hears me say something about food stamps or whatnot.

Yes, I am of incredibly limited means and now make just slightly too much money to get FAP but still not enough to really put a full few thousands of dollars effort wise in. It's definitely one of those times when energy has to be invested correctly but with such contradictory information all I can do is stare and ask if we are looking at the same application.

I need to hire a consultant obviously because I know I am doing something wrong when I am getting other people into medical school and I am sitting here again. I was emailed a few days ago by someone who took Organic with me, he is starting at Emory SOM in fall and he contacted me and said if I hadn't have given him such good advice, he wouldn't have gotten in. Ironically he also applied to school 1, outright rejection, no interview! It is possible that the advice I am getting from SDN and other places is not going to work for me because I have an unusual set of circumstances that you are not exactly going to see every day.

I wish I had a better idea of how to overhaul right now. I did overhaul a chunk of my statement, a bit of my disadvantaged, and reworked most of my ECs. A 20 year hobby that didn't add a metric ton to my application other than "Man FA is one of 'those people'" was blended in with another thing, it was replaced with something that school 1 suggested that I simply never thought to include, but it's worth at least a thousand volunteer hours tied to an area about 70 miles from school 1. And what actually was my third most meaningful was removed and replaced with my fourth most meaningful as it is a little more medical and the hobby I removed can be inferred.

 

[occams_razor]

I don't even know if I would take the feedback these schools are giving you seriously because I've been told by many people that schools will never tell you the real reason you haven't been admitted. I was told that essentially they have to cover their butts so they don't ever give you the actual reason.

 

[familyaerospace]

The only things that have not come up at one point or another is my height, weight or eye colour.

 

[QofQuimica]

You're wasting your time looking for "reasons" when you already know what the problem is. This half-baked app strategy you insist on following year after year clearly isn't cutting the muster. I think there are one or more schools out there that will be willing to take a chance on you, but you need to apply to enough schools, and you need to apply to the right schools. Honestly, if you can't apply strategically (broadly, to a few dozen schools including a mix of both MD and DO schools with average stats in your range), you're better off not applying at all. I suggest that you sit this year out, work, save some money, and give it a serious shot next year (or even in two years if that's what it takes for you to save enough money to make a proper app effort).

 

[Stagg737]

@gyngyn
School 3 - directly from the director of admissions who I was on the phone with for an hour and 15 minutes today. She pulled up my application and double checked to make sure I definitely wrote about some of the things that were needed. (Which begs the question, if I didn't write about it in the first place how would she know it was something that needed to be written about?) As she flicked through the file she said with someone who has as much clinical as I do, people would expect to see another shadowing letter. I just confirmed someone who would write one. The director of admissions went through line by line today and even gave me a little feedback from the interview which apparently I walked on water during so much for the I had previously spoken to the dean last August and she said other than MCAT being a little lower than ideal, everything was about where it should be or could be expected realistically. 8 years (8 credits per semester) of near 4.0 (my only non-A was Russian), brought me up only about a tenth of a GPA point cGPA although it helped my BCPM more. One of those "Biochem couldn't hurt, but you don't have easy access so we aren't going to press it. All your sciences look fairly solid." situations.

8 years of college is a long time for someone who doesn't have a PhD. You say you were told you didn't have any red flags, but it sounds like you may have one that no one is telling you about. Sure you had a near 4.0, but it took you 8 years of being a non-full-time student to achieve that. The hardest part of med school (from everyone I've talked to) is being able to handle ridiculous volumes of information in a relatively short period of time. Sure you had a great GPA, but it sounds like you took a long time to achieve that GPA. Med schools may wonder if you will be able to handle a much heavier courseload.

I don't know your exact situation, but from the sounds of it these schools are seeing some kind of red flag which makes you a high-risk candidate in their eyes.

 

[familyaerospace]

I applied to 16 schools this cycle, several of which I was in the appropriate stats with. The first cycle I applied DO as well and you know that.

My first cycle school list and strategy was approved by my premed committee as was my second. The premed committee actually did completely design my strategy.

 

[familyaerospace]

8 years of college is a long time for someone who doesn't have a PhD. You say you were told you didn't have any red flags, but it sounds like you may have one that no one is telling you about. Sure you had a near 4.0, but it took you 8 years of being a non-full-time student to achieve that. The hardest part of med school (from everyone I've talked to) is being able to handle ridiculous volumes of information in a relatively short period of time. Sure you had a great GPA, but it sounds like you took a long time to achieve that GPA. Med schools may wonder if you will be able to handle a much heavier courseload.

I don't know your exact situation, but from the sounds of it these schools are seeing some kind of red flag which makes you a high-risk candidate in their eyes.

I have 2 bachelors degrees and a three year masters degree. The PhD program was not yet approved when I graduated although it is available now.

 

[familyaerospace]

I was part time those last 8 years because I was working an 80 hour a week job doing biomedical consulting and raising four kids. And 8-9 hours is considered full time for a graduate student given lab work and stuff.

 

[occams_razor]

I have 2 bachelors degrees and a three year masters degree. The PhD program was not yet approved when I graduated although it is available now.

For your bachelors were each obtained in 4 years? ie was at least the first bachelors traditional? I know of one person who took 6 years to obtain their 1st bachelors (they went part time) and this did hurt their app/was a red flag. from your answer that doesn't sound like your situation but just double checking.

 

[QofQuimica]

I applied to 16 schools this cycle, several of which I was in the appropriate stats with. The first cycle I applied DO as well and you know that.

My first cycle school list and strategy was approved by my premed committee as was my second. The premed committee actually did completely design my strategy.

I know the finances are an issue for you, but again, you're better off making one big, intensive effort than all these little half-efforts. 16 schools isn't enough for an unconventional applicant with some flaws in their academic record. I was being serious when I said you should apply to a few dozen. Literally, as in, 30-35 of them, all in your stat range. And all submitted in the same app cycle.

 

[familyaerospace]

I know the finances are an issue for you, but again, you're better off making one big, intensive effort than all these little half-efforts. 16 schools isn't enough for an unconventional applicant with some flaws in their academic record. I was being serious when I said you should apply to a few dozen. Literally, as in, 30-35 of them, all in your stat range. And all submitted in the same app cycle.

Round 4 is occurring partially of all the MD schools, my 3rd favourite overall is exclusively Georgia residents and it's in my stat range (my second favourite is also in Georgia and takes primarily GA residents). Both I am waitlisted on, one I have been waitlisted on twice. However, my partner wants me to leave the state and change our residency to Florida (California was another possibility). One secondary has no fee, the other does have a fee but I think I know someone who is going to cover it because they want me to go there so badly. The changes the latter school asked to see in my application was such an easy fix, plus if the secondaries are the same as last year, I just did something today which is 1) Georgia related and 2) very much fulfills all the requirements which are specific. I really want to go to one of those two schools so I want to apply when I still have residency.


Round 5 is being prepped for a 25 school run. Schools will be decided when I know my new MCAT score and when my partner decides to establish residency. My yeshiva (which was not included in the semesters listed above) is going to have some words with some of the Israeli medical schools to get feedback as to whether or not they are worth my effort/if I have a realistic shot. If no, the yeshiva will transfer my credits around internally and allow me to finish a second masters/teaching license during round 5... unfortunately only good in Israel which is where I would move to if these cycles keep going belly up.

 

[familyaerospace]

For your bachelors were each obtained in 4 years? ie was at least the first bachelors traditional? I know of one person who took 6 years to obtain their 1st bachelors (they went part time) and this did hurt their app/was a red flag. from your answer that doesn't sound like your situation but just double checking.

I was supposed to graduate in Spring 2003, I graduated Summer 2003 because I upgraded it to a BS degree instead of a BA and so had to take Stats, all of Bio for majors, and another course that summer. I looked like death warmed over as I had a newborn.

During my more traditional time, I was between 18 to 20 hours a semester and I was a pretty consistent B+ student which annoyed people as I would take classes I never had a background in. 300, 400 courses that I had to be overridden into and never took a 100 level course in the department. I was working 40 hours a week during most of that and raising three kids until Spring 2003 which is when the youngest was born so then it was four.

I would kill to know what would have happened if I didn't have to work, didn't have kids, and did take the requirements that I was supposed to have.

I will not work during medical school and three of my four kids are now grown.

 

[Stagg737]

Not sure what advice to give you other than to avoid applying to California schools at all cost. They are notoriously difficult to get into (even for in-staters) and would likely be a waste of your time and money. Other than that it seems like you have your plans pretty set in stone. Best of luck with your apps!

 

[familyaerospace]

Not sure what advice to give you other than to avoid applying to California schools at all cost. They are notoriously difficult to get into (even for in-staters) and would likely be a waste of your time and money. Other than that it seems like you have your plans pretty set in stone. Best of luck with your apps!

Tell my partner this please. He doesn't get the California thing.

What I am just asking for was just about the different advice and why on bloody earth the one school (luckily I did not apply to) is such an outlier

 

[Zelda840]

I don't even know if I would take the feedback these schools are giving you seriously because I've been told by many people that schools will never tell you the real reason you haven't been admitted. I was told that essentially they have to cover their butts so they don't ever give you the actual reason.

I think it might depend on the actual reason. I was told point blank that my academics were fine and I that needed more clinical volunteering.

 

[DrMidlife]

What I am just asking for was just about the different advice and why on bloody earth the one school (luckily I did not apply to) is such an outlier

"outlier" would imply that the rest of the "data" is orderly and piles up nicely. N isn't big enough to draw any conclusion here. Alternatively, n is big enough to draw any conclusion you like.

Always assume it's GPA/MCAT, if there's any GPA/MCAT damage. Next assumption is late/narrow app. Then you can start looking at the rest.

 

[familyaerospace]

"outlier" would imply that the rest of the "data" is orderly and piles up nicely. N isn't big enough to draw any conclusion here. Alternatively, n is big enough to draw any conclusion you like.

Always assume it's GPA/MCAT, if there's any GPA/MCAT damage. Next assumption is late/narrow app. Then you can start looking at the rest.

The outlier reference was referring to the research, publication etc information from school 2. You know which school that is as I emailed you about it.

Of all the schools I've ever seen mentioned and out of all the information on SDN being told to get rid of all research completely (not downplay or edit just they don't like research at all) is a little unusual especially when that is a big factor as why I was brought in to interview at school 3. Research and the consulting job were what grabbed their eye. That is what seems to be the outlier.

School 3s mcat comment not a big surprise (although they say they are going to have real trouble next year for the new mcat and would prefer old for ease for the next class).

School 1 I am competing against people who were born here and honestly my partner hates the state which is no small part why he left. He knows that is screwing up my chances. They are all primary care and while they don't stress research they don't mind seeing it. No one really asked about it.

 

[Goro]

Aero, I'm not familiar with your numbers but if you've been getting interviews, then I suspect the problem is with your interview skills.

If you haven't gotten interviews, then it's the numbers.

If the numbers are competitive, I strongly suspect a bad LOR. Really bad. No Dean or any other Admissions personnel will ever admit to there being a bad LOR in one's file.

PM if you'd like, so I can get a better idea of your app.

My own school has rejected, well, low-waitlisted and then rejected, people who took too few courses over a long period of time, making us suspect that they'd not handle the crush of med school.

Since you're Jewish, did you apply to the Touros?

The outlier reference was referring to the research, publication etc information from school 2. You know which school that is as I emailed you about it.

Of all the schools I've ever seen mentioned and out of all the information on SDN being told to get rid of all research completely (not downplay or edit just they don't like research at all) is a little unusual especially when that is a big factor as why I was brought in to interview at school 3. Research and the consulting job were what grabbed their eye. That is what seems to be the outlier.

School 3s mcat comment not a big surprise (although they say they are going to have real trouble next year for the new mcat and would prefer old for ease for the next class).

School 1 I am competing against people who were born here and honestly my partner hates the state which is no small part why he left. He knows that is screwing up my chances. They are all primary care and while they don't stress research they don't mind seeing it. No one really asked about it.

 

[familyaerospace]

Aero, I'm not familiar with your numbers but if you've been getting interviews, then I suspect the problem is with your interview skills.

If you haven't gotten interviews, then it's the numbers.

If the numbers are competitive, I strongly suspect a bad LOR. Really bad. No Dean or any other Admissions personnel will ever admit to there being a bad LOR in one's file.

PM if you'd like, so I can get a better idea of your app.

My own school has rejected, well, low-waitlisted and then rejected, people who took too few courses over a long period of time, making us suspect that they'd not handle the crush of med school.

Since you're Jewish, did you apply to the Touros?

Round 1 : 1 interview. My LizzyM was way higher than average, but there was a problem because I'm trans and they admitted that. I was told by the DO school that DO schools cannot accept transsexuals because of the OMM course.

Round 2 : 2 interviews. One my LizzyM was slightly higher than average, but they also had an issue with me being LGBT (when the dean found out last month she was a bit upset). The other my LizzyM was lower than their average. I was waitlisted at the second school. The first school it is rare to get an interview if you are not a reapplicant, they really like their reapplicants and nontrads.

Round 3 : 4 interviews. Three my LizzyM was higher than their average. No one had a problem with me being LGBT, but one complained I studied in yeshiva during the "gap years" after my MS and said they had a Jewish quota, and one complained that I am "too religious" which was fine because after that visit I was thinking that I should not have accepted the interview. The other my LizzyM was lower than their average (the one from the previous round) said I needed more ties to the state of Georgia because apparently the fact I've lived here 15 years is not enough because my partner had to move out of Georgia. I was waitlisted at two including both I interviewed at the previous year. On my opening post, that is school 1 (LizzyM high) and school 3 (LizzyM low).

Round 1 had a bad LOR... well not bad but he dictated it and it made no sense. I replaced that with a much better letter.

Round 2 should have applied to more schools but I trusted a premed committee.

Round 3's problems only G-d knows. I could see MCAT being an issue for some but I was interviewed at three schools where my LizzyM was higher and I was rejected without interview at a school where my LizzyM was higher than their average.

When I was interviewing round 3 at the one where my LizzyM is lower than their average, I was complimented on my LORs which were "outstanding" (I also have seen each of my LORs, several you would think I walk on water) and had been complimented on the interview skills (he said previous interviewer said I was nervous but that he didn't see that and am I sure I am the same applicant.) Dean of school 1 thinks I am just unlucky. I met with her and there was another guy who had been waitlisted like three times by that school.

I did not apply to the Touros.

 

[Plecopotamus]

So I just submitted for round 4.

I have now heard from three schools, two I am waitlisted at and one an SDN friend attends on my third round application and I have to say some of the information is really contradictory particularly schools 2 and 3.

The more I do these rounds of applications the more I honestly wonder what is going on and if medical school is just messing with me.

School 1 - waitlisted. MCAT fine, GPA fine. No flags at all in application. Change opening line of PS and that is it. One of the strongest people on the waitlist so presumably that means I rank high on it? Perhaps get some more community service (I have thousands of hours and I can easily add another thousand that ties directly to Georgia). Try to emphasize ties to Georgia (ok that is realistic despite the fact I've lived here 15 years.)

School 2 - a DO school where a friend attends. Remove research, publications, presentations, some work (which was medically related), some community service and some other things. Consider retaking MCAT, remove several years of classes (I have 16 years of college classes), rewrite disadvantaged, rewrite PS, and considers my BS and MS fluff despite the fact in the world of DOs I have taken more science than non-science courses.

School 3 - waitlisted two years in a row. Consider retaking MCAT (ok not a surprise given that schools numbers), consider trying to improve GPA (undergrad 3.53 cgpa and 3.63 bcpm again I have hundreds of credits so movement is small, my grad gpas are higher) I was advised to consider getting a PhD and get more science courses that way since 38 courses is only average for the class and a PhD is common (!?!), get a second physician letter (ok, that is easy). Not uncommon to be waitlisted for four or five cycles (?!?) before acceptance. When I asked about school 2's advice, it turns out the things I was told to remove were the reasons I was brought in to an interview and that they said it sounded like school 2 wanted to steal me.

School 3 ranks the highest of all of them and has the highest LizzyM average and was always a reach school for me. School 1 has an almost perfect hit on their LizzyM score in comparison to mine, I think I am a little higher than their average but not by much. School 2 should have a LizzyM score similar to mine as well.

I would just love to know where school 2's information is coming from since they are such a drastic outlier. Has anyone else gotten such crazy different responses?

I have never heard of a school telling someone to remove research. I have heard them say in various ways that they don't show enough clinical interest, but usually more with the flavor of a suggestion to increase the latter rather than hide the former. However, I don't know if this is a DO vs MD difference. I can't help but wonder if she was being hyperbolic & you're taking her too literally. If it were my app, I would not honor this advice for MD, and would be skeptical for DO. However, that's just gut reaction, and not based on good knowledge.

Looking at your MD Apps, I think I agree w QofQuimica. How in the world are you picking your schools? At this point, you need to increase the number of schools to find success. As a reapplicant with financial constraints top schools (Harvard, Columbia, etc.) that are highly unlikely to consider you on your 2nd let alone your 4th cycle are probably not prudent choices. And as tempting as it is to keep applying to the same IS schools that have waitlisted you in the past & hope the results change, that is not enough, and you need to expand the list. Given that the stigma of reapplication in and of itself is going to increase with each cycle, I would not apply again until I had enough money to do this the way other reapplicants do -- 30 schools.

Some food for though from my experience as 3 time reapplicant:
Schools with a strong commitment to a specific community sometimes have a very specific set of low-threshold criteria which, when met, will essentially trigger an invitation to interview. Once you meet that criteria, you will be invited for interview every single time you apply (assuming you continue to meet them). These criteria may then be almost completely independent from those you have to meet to gain admission...and you can essentially have zero chance of turning an interview into an acceptance. This is what I was told by the dean of a particular public school, where I applied, interviewed, and was rejected withwaitlist all 3 cycles. He told me this the first year and suggested I continue to apply in case they started weighting their algorithms differently, but that essentially the "score" I needed to attain post interview was unrealistic without a major change to my application (like you, as a nontrad, budging my uGPA was impossible, and I had far more research than community service due to needing to feed myself & pay bills). He seemed frustrated and I was clearly not the first applicant he felt was strung along by their system, which was heavily dictated by their state. I have no reason to believe this is what your schools are doing, but I think it's important to share so that you can plan for the fact (if you choose) that your chance at converting that WL next year might not be as good as you'd think multiple interviews/WLs would suggest.

 

[familyaerospace]

My first round I had the DO school and of the MD schools every school was accepting of transgender students, many were actively recruiting them (Harvard and Yale both actively state they want LGBT applicants). Some of my schools also had research that would allow me to continue working in the same area that I've been working for the past several years and they were complaining that they can't find student researchers with the interest or experience.

My second round, many were actively recruiting transgender students. Some were still doing research. One (where my LizzyM was high for) was added because I found out someone was lying about them not taking community college credits. I added a local HBC because I'm URM. I learned at my state school they must have lost my application the previous round (according to my interviewer.)

Both round 1 and 2 were vetted through a premed committee at a top 20 who looked at my whole application and together helped set up my round. They do medical school consulting but they are apparently not that good at it.

Round 3, some were added for the same reasons as above, some schools specifically state they like reapplicants so I applied to them again, anything I was waitlisted at I repeated after I met with the dean to help improve. I applied to some HBCs that I recognized and that my LizzyM was in range. I applied to several areas where I have ties because my family lives there. My partner lives in New England and the rest of the family lives in Florida. I applied to an international school because I visited the country and fell in love with it and my stats were appropriate. I would have applied to the medical school there that my rabbi wanted me to but my MCAT was too old.

Round 4, MCG is free so I am not paying for the secondary. Einstein's cost is going to be free for me as someone (on SDN actually) offered to pay for the secondary as she feels I have a good chance. Mercer's application fee will also be comped.

The only way I am going to be able to afford 30 schools is if my partner loses his job again or I crowdsource funding. You seriously underestimate my family's hatred of the medical profession. Even if we won the lottery, I would still have a budget. They'd rather me be a lawyer or possibly a rabbi.

 

[Plecopotamus]

My first round I had the DO school and of the MD schools every school was accepting of transgender students, many were actively recruiting them (Harvard and Yale both actively state they want LGBT applicants). Some of my schools also had research that would allow me to continue working in the same area that I've been working for the past several years and they were complaining that they can't find student researchers with the interest or experience.

My second round, many were actively recruiting transgender students. Some were still doing research. One (where my LizzyM was high for) was added because I found out someone was lying about them not taking community college credits. I added a local HBC because I'm URM. I learned at my state school they must have lost my application the previous round (according to my interviewer.)

Both round 1 and 2 were vetted through a premed committee at a top 20 who looked at my whole application and together helped set up my round. They do medical school consulting but they are apparently not that good at it.

Round 3, some were added for the same reasons as above, some schools specifically state they like reapplicants so I applied to them again, anything I was waitlisted at I repeated after I met with the dean to help improve. I applied to some HBCs that I recognized and that my LizzyM was in range. I applied to several areas where I have ties because my family lives there. My partner lives in New England and the rest of the family lives in Florida. I applied to an international school because I visited the country and fell in love with it and my stats were appropriate. I would have applied to the medical school there that my rabbi wanted me to but my MCAT was too old.

Round 4, MCG is free so I am not paying for the secondary. Einstein's cost is going to be free for me as someone (on SDN actually) offered to pay for the secondary as she feels I have a good chance. Mercer's application fee will also be comped.

The only way I am going to be able to afford 30 schools is if my partner loses his job again or I crowdsource funding. You seriously underestimate my family's hatred of the medical profession. Even if we won the lottery, I would still have a budget. They'd rather me be a lawyer or possibly a rabbi.

My suggestion has nothing to do with my lack of understanding of your family, and everything to do with the fact that your application strategy is failing, and you're actually hurting yourself further by going through more cycles versus (fewer) larger cycles.

You are a URM, transgendered, socioeconomically disadvantaged, Jewish, and interested in research -- these are attributes that will make various individuals, communities, or organizations interested in helping you. I don't think crowdsourcing funding is preposterous. You should be reaching out to the LGBTQ and Jewish communities for assistance...even if for loans, donation of airline miles for interviews, or to get some sort of odd job to raise enough money for a few extra secondaries. Even if you cold call/email people who might be interested in helping you and they reject you, you're no worse off.

 

[familyaerospace]

My suggestion has nothing to do with my lack of understanding of your family, and everything to do with the fact that your application strategy is failing, and you're actually hurting yourself further by going through more cycles versus (fewer) larger cycles.

You are a URM, transgendered, socioeconomically disadvantaged, Jewish, and interested in research -- these are attributes that will make various individuals, communities, or organizations interested in helping you. I don't think crowdsourcing funding is preposterous. You should be reaching out to the LGBTQ and Jewish communities for assistance...even if for loans, donation of airline miles for interviews, or to get some sort of odd job to raise enough money for a few extra secondaries.

The LGBTQ and Jewish communities are how I partially funded two interviews for round 3 (LGBTQ community), how I visited the international school (both communities), and how I am funding one secondary this round (Jewish community). The Jewish community is also paying in full for the past three years of my post-bacc education, doing mock interview prep, going over apps (obviously we have a lot of doctors), and trying to network me but all that just started last year. The problem with the Jewish community is that they want to assure you are going to continue to help them and they want a say in where you apply which in no small part keeps me locked to Georgia which most people on SDN say I need to get out of.

I have a few Jewish community members that I know are advising me to just go back to graduate school and get a PhD as the world needs more researchers. I have a rabbi that is trying to turn me around 180 and convince me to get a graduate degree in Judaic Studies and is helping to arrange the pre-reqs for, since they are free for me, I'll do them. Jewish Family and Career Services in Atlanta says my odds are better for rabbinical school at this point and they are relucantly helping with medical school... reluctantly.

The one thing the Jewish community is very good about doing is reminding me that the thing I wanted most in life it took me 7 attempts to do and 16 years since my first application to get in, so I have a few more rounds medical school wise (and like with medical school, normally if you apply one round your chances decrease drastically for round 2 and are usually competely locked out. Round 7, I got in and pretty quickly too causing me to be a known anomaly in the community.)

My odd jobs are what is buying things that food stamps will not cover (toilet paper for example) as well as paying bills. It's ironic that I do not qualify for FAP, I still qualify for literally the maximum amount of food stamps. If my management job at GaRF would have worked out this year, I would have been able to throw a bunch of money at secondaries.

Round 5 if there is a round 5, will be crowdsourced from everyone using gofundme. Unfortunately, my "campaign manager" just got sick (got the email yesterday) so she is down for the count for a while. Fundraising is not my specialty, but I have a general idea of how to get publicity for it.

 

[Plecopotamus]

The LGBTQ and Jewish communities are how I partially funded two interviews for round 3 (LGBTQ community), how I visited the international school (both communities), and how I am funding one secondary this round (Jewish community). The Jewish community is also paying in full for the past three years of my post-bacc education, doing mock interview prep, going over apps (obviously we have a lot of doctors), and trying to network me but all that just started last year. The problem with the Jewish community is that they want to assure you are going to continue to help them and they want a say in where you apply which in no small part keeps me locked to Georgia which most people on SDN say I need to get out of.

I have a few Jewish community members that I know are advising me to just go back to graduate school and get a PhD as the world needs more researchers. I have a rabbi that is trying to turn me around 180 and convince me to get a graduate degree in Judaic Studies and is helping to arrange the pre-reqs for, since they are free for me, I'll do them. Jewish Family and Career Services in Atlanta says my odds are better for rabbinical school at this point and they are relucantly helping with medical school... reluctantly.

The one thing the Jewish community is very good about doing is reminding me that the thing I wanted most in life it took me 7 attempts to do and 16 years since my first application to get in, so I have a few more rounds medical school wise (and like with medical school, normally if you apply one round your chances decrease drastically for round 2 and are usually competely locked out. Round 7, I got in and pretty quickly too causing me to be a known anomaly in the community.)

My odd jobs are what is buying things that food stamps will not cover (toilet paper for example) as well as paying bills. It's ironic that I do not qualify for FAP, I still qualify for literally the maximum amount of food stamps. If my management job at GaRF would have worked out this year, I would have been able to throw a bunch of money at secondaries.

Round 5 if there is a round 5, will be crowdsourced from everyone using gofundme. Unfortunately, my "campaign manager" just got sick (got the email yesterday) so she is down for the count for a while. Fundraising is not my specialty, but I have a general idea of how to get publicity for it.

You don't need to stay in your immediate community. Reach out to organizations that provide scholarship monies, etc.

 

[shiftingmirage]

From MD apps:

2011
MCAT 10/10/12
GPA 3.51, sGPA 3.60

Applied to:
Medical College of GA
Tulane
Mount Sinai
Emory
Cleveland Clinic
Case
Philadelphia College (waitlisted).

2012
MCAT 8/9/9
GPA 3.53, sGPA 3.63

Applied to:
MSU
U Kansas
Morehouse
Yale
Columbia
Emory
Mercer (interviewed)
Medical College of GA (waitlisted)

2013
MCAT 10/10/12
GPA 3.53, sGPA 3.63

Applied to:
U Vermont
Emory
Dartmouth
Harvard
Brown
Meharry
U Miami
Morehouse (iv)
MSU (iv)
Mercer (waitlisted)
Medical College of GA (waitlisted)

Did you take the MCAT once in/prior to 2011 and get a 32, and then again in 2012 and get a 26? Is the MCAT you report in 2013 the first MCAT you took where you scored a 32, and the second time you scored a 26, or is the 32 a reflection of the most recent MCAT? I see you have an MCAT score pending.

I don't have an MSAR, but it seems like a lot of reach schools, especially if that 26 was the most recent MCAT. From your apps, it appears in 2012 you applied with a MCAT of 26 to Yale, Emory, Columbia. In 2013, you applied to Harvard, Brown, Dartmouth, Emory. If it is your third time applying why would you apply to such high caliber programs? Your numbers aren't amazing, and seems like financial limitations are preventing applying to more schools which means you need to be even more selective when applying.

I applied to 16 schools this cycle, several of which I was in the appropriate stats with.

When you are a reapplicant, especially the 3rd time and only applying to 16 schools, your stats need to be appropriate for all of them.

I know this comes across harsh, but I'm trying to be helpful. A URM with a 32/3.5 had a 93% chance of getting accepted during the years you applied. I think you are applying to the wrong schools.

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/04/me...-racial-preferences-for-blacks-and-hispanics/

 

[familyaerospace]

Did you take the MCAT once in/prior to 2011 and get a 32, and then again in 2012 and get a 26? Is the MCAT you report in 2013 the first MCAT you took where you scored a 32, and the second time you scored a 26, or is the 32 a reflection of the most recent MCAT? I see you have an MCAT score pending.

I don't have an MSAR, but it seems like a lot of reach schools, especially if that 26 was the most recent MCAT. From your apps, it appears in 2012 you applied with a MCAT of 26 to Yale, Emory, Columbia. In 2013, you applied to Harvard, Brown, Dartmouth, Emory. If it is your third time applying why would you apply to such high caliber programs? Your numbers aren't amazing, and seems like financial limitations are preventing applying to more schools which means you need to be even more selective when applying.


When you are a reapplicant, especially the 3rd time and only applying to 16 schools, your stats need to be appropriate for all of them.

I know this comes across harsh, but I'm trying to be helpful. A URM with a 32/3.5 had a 93% chance of getting accepted during the years you applied. I think you are applying to the wrong schools.

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/04/me...-racial-preferences-for-blacks-and-hispanics/

1) The 26 is what the schools looked at is what I am told and that was my first and now expired score. I was specifically told by one school that was the score they looked at. I had one school tell me they looked at a 25 which was a July 2011 score (literally 3 months after the first one). One school once informed me that my MCAT was a 27. Technically I've never had a 27... ever which makes me think they are averaging them or are cherry picking. Luckily all my crappy scores are going to expire by the end of summer so right now my MCAT on mdapplicants says whatever it says 1/1/1 or whatever but yet I still was told I need to retake. I suspect it is so there can be consistency. If I can get 30, I will be fine at my top 2 schools from last year and one top school that I have yet to interview at.

2) Harvard is looking for LGBT and are considering people with lower scores. Dartmouth I had to add to at the last minute because I had ties as I did with Brown, they were all free applications as I was on FAP which is 15 free schools. One school I paid out of pocket to and that was international and I really wanted to go to whose average MCAT is a 24. I have had an adcomm at Emory annoy me about applying there every year. Last thing I want to do is piss him off so I apply every year. Also I've taught the medical students there for three years and they are also looking for LGBT people. At least I know what the people there are saying about me.

3) 93% accepted means 7% were rejected. According to Mercer, I have the worst luck in history. Others are convinced it is my interview skills so I will see how they are as I am getting a free mock interview on Thursday. If I am getting interviews, it shouldn't be my numbers and I had four interviews last year.

 

[occams_razor]

1) The 26 is what the schools looked at is what I am told and that was my first and now expired score. I was specifically told by one school that was the score they looked at. I had one school tell me they looked at a 25 which was a July 2011 score (literally 3 months after the first one). One school once informed me that my MCAT was a 27. Technically I've never had a 27... ever which makes me think they are averaging them or are cherry picking. Luckily all my crappy scores are going to expire by the end of summer so right now my MCAT on mdapplicants says whatever it says 1/1/1 or whatever but yet I still was told I need to retake. I suspect it is so there can be consistency. If I can get 30, I will be fine at my top 2 schools from last year and one top school that I have yet to interview at.

2) Harvard is looking for LGBT and are considering people with lower scores. Dartmouth I had to add to at the last minute because I had ties as I did with Brown, they were all free applications as I was on FAP which is 15 free schools. One school I paid out of pocket to and that was international and I really wanted to go to whose average MCAT is a 24. I have had an adcomm at Emory annoy me about applying there every year. Last thing I want to do is piss him off so I apply every year. Also I've taught the medical students there for three years and they are also looking for LGBT people. At least I know what the people there are saying about me.

3) 93% accepted means 7% were rejected. According to Mercer, I have the worst luck in history. Others are convinced it is my interview skills so I will see how they are as I am getting a free mock interview on Thursday. If I am getting interviews, it shouldn't be my numbers and I had four
interviews last year.

if I have this correct you scored a 26, then a 25 (2011?) then a 32, then a 34 in 2013? And now all these scores are about to expire so you are re-taking? many schools average scores so your MCAT may have looked like a 29 to the schools that do this.
I would focus on killing the MCAT this time around. Would it be possible to crowdfund to raise money for a prep course? I know people who have had success doing this through sites like gofundme. You could reach out to lgbt bloggers and see if they would post about your story with a link to your gofundme.

With the Harvard thing, it's true that they are known to actively recruit lgbt students but since their average MCAT is a 37 when they say they will consider lower scores, low for Harvard is like a 32 or 33 so unfortunately your MCAT probably got you screened out there.

 

[familyaerospace]

One of the 30-somethings is incorrect.

All my scores either have or are going to expire in a relatively short period. MCG had looked at an expired score.

I am planning to use gofundme, there is a page already set up for it. It just isn't fully ready to go yet. Step 1 is a prep course for 2015 (goal 2K), Step 2 is the MCAT itself, Step 3 is primaries/secondaries for round 5 with a goal of like 30 schools. I have a campaign manager of sorts but she just ended up with some bad news so she might have to bail out on me. Right now since I am about to move (again) I am not at the point of promoting it.

I also have a sneaky way to get my name out there which will draw some attention to that fundraiser when I help promote another.

 

[familyaerospace]

My scores do not accurately reflect when I took the tests as I wasn't using mdapps for a while and literally totally forgot about it because it was so stressing.

Also a lot of medical schools are wanting scores within 2 years or else you have to retake...

Fun times.

 

[deleted547631]

Hey @familyaerospace,

I've gone through both this post and MDApps and noticed you applied to MSIH in the recent past. Did they not accept you? They seem to be very non-traditional oriented. My former flat mate's S.O. went there in 2010 and matched this year into Psych at a good program. Despite the current flaring, I think Sackler or MSIH are valid options for you if you want to start learning medicine and move on from the admissions musical chairs game. I'm not negating what others have said above about your flawed application strategy, I tend to agree, but since you are open to Israel then why not make it happen sooner rather than later?

 

[familyaerospace]

@OutRun

MSIH rejected me the day after my file was complete. They did not even interview me. My stats are (from what I've seen) above average for them.

One of my rabbis is very supportive of Sackler as a possibility rather than MSIH.

I've already been in Israel and enjoyed it very much, plus Sackler is near the only gay Orthodox shul in the world so is fitting, plus I already know some Hebrew although will still need Medical Hebrew.

 

[deleted547631]

@OutRun

MSIH rejected me the day after my file was complete. They did not even interview me. My stats are (from what I've seen) above average for them.

One of my rabbis is very supportive of Sackler as a possibility rather than MSIH.

I've already been in Israel and enjoyed it very much, plus Sackler is near the only gay Orthodox shul in the world so is fitting, plus I already know some Hebrew although will still need Medical Hebrew.

Are they still accepting applicants for 2014 entry? You should apply! I hope it's logistically feasible for you to do so. Go for it!

Their Match this year is nice: http://sacklermedicine.us/match-day/

 

[familyaerospace]

Are they still accepting applicants for 2014 entry? You should apply! I hope it's logistically feasible for you to do so. Go for it!

Their Match this year is nice: http://sacklermedicine.us/match-day/

I would already have to be in Israel about now with Sackler.

I will probably apply for 2015 entering class after my new MCAT scores (standard rather than non-standard which is what I am supposed to get) come out.

I am hoping that the current operation cools down a bit. Being in a war zone when going to medical school will have to be distracting although think of how much hands on experience one would get!

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

I hate to say it, but after reading through this thread all I can see is excuse after excuse. You are not applying with a strategy that maximizes your chances. In your 3rd cycle, you should NOT have any Ivy League schools no matter what the reason (especially with such low scores). If you are on FAP, you are literally wasting opportunities because you are not being realistic. Emory -Dartmouth -Harvard -Brown should not be on your radar at all anymore. There are awesome mid-low tier private schools that you could have a chance at that you aren't considering.

If you've been waitlisted 2 years in a row, that means the school took another chance at you and you didn't rise to the occasion. Are you improving each cycle and getting solid clinical experiences? It looks like you have little to no solid hands on clinical experiences. Have you worked full time in a clinical setting or moved in a direction where you have solid leadership positions in a clinical setting?

Also, 4 interviews and 0 acceptances is bad interview skills IMO. What are you lacking in the interview? You need to be able to sell yourself in an interview and articulate your reasons for going into medicine. Seriously do some reflection on your skills and work to improve them.

What is your DO list? You should have a long list of DO schools at this point or else you are not really that committed to being a doc. No Caribbean schools?

 

[familyaerospace]

I have over 800 hours of clinical experiences and that is the hours on my application from last year. I only gained 20 hours this year as I spent several months experiencing being completely dependent on others to be able to move (and to go to the bathroom) due to an assault in Buford Georgia. When I recovered, I was recovered enough to do a medical mission trip which I did not have to pay for (full scholarship and all but $400 of airfare), but did not list it as medical hours. Just listed it as vacation/travel. If people ask, I will tell them. Then the rest of interview season occurred and between that and having to give talks out of state, as well as my attending being on travel (he returns today), I didn't get much. But now that the attending is back, my hours will increase again. All his patients have been asking about me as they miss me and several expressed concern when I was very badly injured and bed bound and unable to come in.

I did mock interviews and have a 7 page detailed report of the results. My results were fine. I even had people comment at my REAL interviews how well I interviewed. I had adcomms whose names I know at schools whose names I know give feedback on my application in front of them so they are seeing things that you are not seeing as only three people on SDN have seen my full on application.

DO would not give me financial assistance when I asked because I had not previously filled out the FAFSA for the previous year. Why did I not have a FAFSA? Because I did not need to. I haven't needed to fill that out since 2006. I've been going to school completely for free for the past several years, mostly on merit. I've had to pay a grand total of $500 in the past 2 years which includes over 70 credits at two universities (one university only gave me a partial award for a class I needed to put $380 to). Additionally, the DO assistance has an allowance of three schools which given my partner is willing to put exactly ZERO money towards DO schools, I would not even be able to use that $500 for this cycle on them. I had my one chance at my one DO school that he was willing to pay for and he really wasn't happy about the fact it was so expensive that it overdrew him for several days. Also if you recall, I had issues with GA PCOM stating that they could not accept a transsexual because of OMM. Yet other DO adcoms (including @Goro) state that doesn't seem right or they have experience to the contrary in their respective schools.

Caribbean may be more of a challenge for me than it would be for the average medical student given kashrut issues and Shabbat issues so they are truly a last resort.

I applied international to Israel where I am able to gain citizenship and have a very good support system in place and I would literally not have to worry about a thing regarding moving to Israel or financing it for 3-4 years. All I have to say is I'm coming and things will be ready for me. I may never even need to go food shopping! I will be paid to move there. If I can't match back here, I can stay there with some additional work which they will pay me to do. I'm above average on most (all?) of the BGU stats. They probably felt I would not come if offered a spot. They were my second choice school. My first choice school has waitlisted me two times in a row. When a school is only interviewing like 600 or so students and getting like 10,000 applications, you better believe I felt honoured both times.

@Goro and I have been talking quite a bit and we are 95% sure we know what the problem is. It has very little to do with any part of my application or likely any interview skills I may or may not have which you seem quick to judge on. It is primarily that I am a mixed race gay transsexual Reformadox Jew in the southeastern United States who like the southern United States. Any one of them either the mixed race (no one can identify what I am consistently), the religion (especially since I wear tzitzit, a kippah, and am a yeshiva boy), or the LGBT issue is reason enough to doom me here.

 

[wholeheartedly]

How would being transsexual go over in Israel?

 

[familyaerospace]

How would being transsexual go over in Israel?

Honestly, not as bad as you'd think. Honestly, being transsexual in say... Tel Aviv is almost like being transsexual in San Francisco. Being transsexual in Jerusalem doesn't exactly raise much in the way of eyebrows either. If I have kids there there is some difficulty with me getting registered as a second father as opposed to mother, but other than that it's not too bad. I would have to see if my pharmacy will ship to Israel for my testosterone since I get it specially compounded as I am allergic to an ingredient in Androgel and Testim. Then I would need to assure Israel can get one other medication which I think they can and I wouldn't have much to worry about.

To show how open minded they were to me. I was high fived at the Western Wall by Chabad and then was invited to study with Chabad ("ultra Orthodox" Jews) for a month in Jerusalem. Several (not all) rabbis in my yeshiva which is based in Israel actually know my history and have no problems with it. However, I was treated with much more respect than the cisgender people. The only harassment I got during the entire time I was in Israel was the fact my Hebrew is really really horrible and the fact I didn't look like the other Jews.

Jewish law actually has mentions of intersexed and trans people emphasizing that they must be loved and well respected.

The bigger worry is the rockets falling. Four rockets came into my cousin's neighbourhood yesterday morning, then one the day before. Luckily she wasn't hurt.

Perhaps that is why I didn't get in internationally this year? If I did, I would be in the middle of a war right now. Or maybe I really do need to retake the MCAT to apply to Sackler which really is a better option.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

my partner is willing to put exactly ZERO money towards DO schools

What does this mean?

Regardless of the 7 page report, keep practicing your interview skills. Being a 4th time reapp at some schools means you have to sell yourself even better than before, and before they weren't good enough to make the cut. If they were perfect you would be in right now. There is room for improvement if things are not working out.

Regardless of the medical issue, 20 hours in a year isn't impressive at all. It seems like it's all shadowing too. What are you doing this cycle for clinical experiences? Are you trying to work in a clinical setting? Are you doing something relevant to medicine?

What is your current school list? I agree with someone above that it might be better to sit this one out and make a well thought out and complete application push next year when you have the funds and experiences you need to address any weaknesses.

 

[familyaerospace]

What does this mean?

Regardless of the 7 page report, keep practicing your interview skills. Being a 4th time reapp at some schools means you have to sell yourself even better than before, and before they weren't good enough to make the cut. If they were perfect you would be in right now. There is room for improvement if things are not working out.

Regardless of the medical issue, 20 hours in a year isn't impressive at all. It seems like it's all shadowing too. What are you doing this cycle for clinical experiences? Are you trying to work in a clinical setting? Are you doing something relevant to medicine?

What is your current school list? I agree with someone above that it might be better to sit this one out and make a well thought out and complete application push next year when you have the funds and experiences you need to address any weaknesses.

My partner really really hates DO schools. I cannot even tell you. My past two PCPs have been DOs as they were the only ones willing to treat transgender patients. My life was put on the line because they were just bad doctors. One luckily is no longer in practice. I don't think that is for the entire profession at all but my partner (aka the funding source) is not planning to forgive them any time soon. He was ticked off when I applied to GA PCOM due to the cost (it overdrafted us big time which is partially my fault for sure since I submitted when I was told to submit) and when he found out the reason I was rejected, oh my G-d, they should be lucky that he was in another state at the time. He doesn't have a temper normally, but he did that day. He is very much a B type personality.

The 20 hours was only shadowing as quite frankly I was unable to even stand and my badge had to be renewed which took two months so I worked on another area which ended up adding a few thousand non-clinical which is going to be discussed in secondaries. I had actual clinical that was NOT shadowing on a trip, but it was only like 50-100 hours. Not a metric ton and other things were occurring around that time as I was supposed to be studying the health care system. If I am not in medical school within the next month, I have an appointment with my neurologist in August. If he thinks my arm and both legs (which were the areas injured due directly and indirectly because of the assault) are ok, I am most likely going to get my EMT-B. I found two possible schools which I could do in September assuming my partner finds employment again. One of the possibilities is an intensive so I could get the license pretty quick then likely get a job. My medical volunteering position which was giving me some additional clinical switched me to a non-clinical research/administrative position until they are sure I am 100% healthwise again. I have a plan of how to prove that they can transfer me back to clinical, The Boss has heard of this and I think she wants to see it happen first.

As far as work-work, I am a trained biomedical technology transfer consultant who has worked for NIH and CDC, I periodically still get work in that area doing SBIR so that is the research side of medicine which I have been doing for a good many years. I only take a few projects a year now due to different contractual issues. Since some of my clients are medical schools, I have considered giving them my services for free in exchange for an acceptance, but it is a breach of professional ethics. Actually I do not take work from schools I am applying to as an added measure. I have, unfortunately, worked for many, many schools. My former employer was very, very well known and we were a small company. Current company, that type of consulting is like 10% of what I do now, I mostly do science writing and editing. You have almost certainly read some of my work either under my real name or as a ghostwriter or as an editor and there is a 100% chance that you have met at least one person who has benefited from my services. It just doesn't pay a lot hence FAP. I didn't have a lot of clients last year obviously since I was high on meds for several months. I have clients who've been suggesting I publish some science books for the lay person, but that hasn't happened yet. I doubt it will, but it is a nice dream.

I am putting in almost a joke of a cycle. Right now three schools, one secondary is free and two others are being paid for by other people. That would be Einstein, Mercer, and MCG. That latter two schools I am still on the bloody wait list for! Retaking the MCAT... yay! And by yay, I mean shoot me.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

Putting in a "joke of a cycle" is a testament to what seems to be your real problem: a lack of planning and a misunderstanding of what it takes to succeed. Did you ever hear a coach say, "Hey team, go out and put in a solid 6% effort and we will win the championship! In the mean time, I'll be watching Breaking Bad on my Iphone over here on the bench." No. Because you need a full and well coordinated effort to succeed. It would be better to save money and put in a full effort in the future, but that isn't an option so you need to plan to be 100% next cycle.

Your clinical experience is lacking . You've had like 10 years to get some really meaningful stuff, so get on that ASAP.

If your partner wants you to be a doctor, then they should support you going to DO school because your chances at an MD school are slim. Although they are entitled to an opinion to dislike DOs, they are flat wrong on judging the entire profession. Your competency isn't in the letters after your name it's in your own training.

Ask yourself, "Is it better for me to be starting medical school next year and take the first step to becoming a physician, or is it better to be reapplying AGAIN to medical school?"

Your answer ::I HOPE:: is this: https://aacomas.aacom.org/?event=welcome

 

[familyaerospace]

I put in a good faith effort in previous attempts based on what adcomms of a top 20 suggested.

This year it is quite frankly cheaper and less time consuming to spend $300 to send primaries where they need to go to three schools, including my top choice then having to take an absurd amount of hours off of work next year just to fill out classes. Inputting my classes alone took over three eight hour days four years ago. I lost nearly $5000 worth of work just dealing with inputting classes that year. Do the math and you can find out what my hourly is when I actually get a project. I will not waste that much time on an application again.

This time 10 years ago, I had friends who actually hid the fact they were physicians because I was so scared of the medical establishment. Ironically my degree was premed, but I wasn't.

I became premed in Dec 2009, only admitted to my family that I was going to apply to medical school in 2010 and they promptly tried to send me to therapy because it was such a 180 degree turn from the previous 20 years of my life.

If we discuss my aerospace medicine research which started 10 years ago, that is not under my clinical hours. That is under my research hours which was over 4000 and it is very clearly marked as what it was... clinically related aerospace research. My biomedical consulting was also several thousand hours (4000 during one year alone when it was 80 hour weeks and a few thousand hours each year since then) and that was also clearly marked as to what I did. My clinical hours of 800 just were shadowing and direct patient care for a hospital. Clinical care was also mentioned in another post as well, which was another 400 over the past 3 years for that group which was not listed in the 800, then the other 50 hours internationally, then when I was actually a "caregiver" which I refuse to put hours on which cheapens it but do discuss in secondaries. So if we include all hours I am looking at 1200 non-paid, and over 14,000+ hours of paid medically related work over 10 years, not including the things not on AMCAS. 1200 clinical, 8000+ related work in three years (ignoring last year). Exactly how many hours did you have? If my hours is not significant and does not put me in the upper echelon, I do not know what will especially since the average premed gets accepted with less than 100 shadowing, a few hundred clinical and a few hundred non-clinical and that is by SDN standards and the average URM gets accepted with fewer. I would get the EMT-B because it is more useful than the license I wanted to get two years ago. It would have the benefit of giving me an additional income stream and potentially pay back some of my loans while getting additional direct clinical because I miss not performing direct care like I did years ago.

If I had no chance at all at an MD school I wouldn't have had as many interviews as I did. I had a full quarter of my applications last year turned into interviews including at a school where I thought I had no chance whatsoever. The only thing that I have seen upon reviewing the video of my mock interview is that I have a very stereotypically gay posture. If one knows I was born female, it would just be interpreted as a feminine posture. That was not mentioned in the write-up. If that is the issue, that can be changed.

Since you're another typical SDN troll which some of your past posts seem to support, I humbly request that you go away because unless you have seen my application you really really cannot speak about what there is on it or what my chances are MD vs DO. For those who have seen my application directly, most say there is no reason I should not have an MD acceptance or two at this point. Most are perplexed. I've only gotten four responses total from schools that said there was an issue in my application that might cause issues, three of them are above in my original post. The other just said retake MCAT as that is the only thing I am not above average on by their school's standards.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

I humbly request that you go away because unless you have seen my application you really really cannot speak about what there is on it or what my chances are MD vs DO.

Although this is pretty much true, it also means that no one in an anonymous SDN forum can really give you advice then unless you are PMing people your full app. Do you want advice from different perspectives or not? PM me your personal statement if you want. I've been reading tons of reapp PS so far this cycle. I'm always glad to help out.

For those who have seen my application directly, most say there is no reason I should not have an MD acceptance or two at this point.

Yeah, except for MD schools.

The problem that I see with clinical hours is that it doesn't seem that you have anything recent that is really important where you have some exceptional experiences in a leadership role. The other problem is more of speculation on my part because people with relatively weak clinical (even with high hours) tend to speak generally about their direct patient care, which is that you have done. This is total speculation on my part, but it's worth considering. Also, if you have enough hours, just say so. You don't need to do the math. People aren't here to attack you, we're here to give you anonymous and unsolicited advice, so you don't need to be really defensive.

when when I was actually a "caregiver" which I refuse to put hours on which cheapens it but do discuss in secondaries.

THIS is case and point for the excuses. No one thinks that by putting an experience in an application it somehow cheapens it (unless it was a caregiver to a friend, and not in a professional setting) in which case I retract this statement. That is just naive and actually hurts your chances of becoming a doctor.

It's also not about the hours, it's about the depth of experience.

My advice is subjective, as all advice is, but it's solid and it's in an effort to get you into a medical school. Take it or leave it. I'm still seeing excuse after excuse, but ultimately it's up to you to get your ducks in a line. After 4 cycles, you should be open to multiple points of view and DO schools. If you don't apply DO AND you are in this spot next year reapplying, you will be kicking yourself because you could have been an MS1. I'm not sure how 5 time reapps look to adcoms. All of these top 20 advisers and friends that have provided advice in the past clearly didn't get you an acceptance, so don't hate on people for giving you different perspectives.

Give me one example of a typical SDN troll post.

 

[el_duderino]

I hate to say it, but after reading through this thread all I can see is excuse after excuse. You are not applying with a strategy that maximizes your chances. In your 3rd cycle, you should NOT have any Ivy League schools no matter what the reason (especially with such low scores). If you are on FAP, you are literally wasting opportunities because you are not being realistic. Emory -Dartmouth -Harvard -Brown should not be on your radar at all anymore. There are awesome mid-low tier private schools that you could have a chance at that you aren't considering.

If you've been waitlisted 2 years in a row, that means the school took another chance at you and you didn't rise to the occasion. Are you improving each cycle and getting solid clinical experiences? It looks like you have little to no solid hands on clinical experiences. Have you worked full time in a clinical setting or moved in a direction where you have solid leadership positions in a clinical setting?

Also, 4 interviews and 0 acceptances is bad interview skills IMO. What are you lacking in the interview? You need to be able to sell yourself in an interview and articulate your reasons for going into medicine. Seriously do some reflection on your skills and work to improve them.

What is your DO list? You should have a long list of DO schools at this point or else you are not really that committed to being a doc. No Caribbean schools?

Quality post.

 

[familyaerospace]

I actually have sent my full application to three people from SDN, I do not send more because I KNOW how people are here. I've had something like 30 people or more actually since I have their usernames from SDN see my personal statement statement that went out on round 1-3, two paragraphs were changed for round 4 mostly because I feel it addresses an issue although people who know me and know how I react when truly ticked off see the paragraph change as a borderline FU, while others who know me less don't see that at all. If you want to see it, PM me and I will send you either round 1 or 4's statement or the change in paragraph, whichever you like. I have sent my application as well to colleagues who are on adcomms but that I cannot apply to because of those measly professional ethics I mentioned. I can ask them for advice though, most of them really are shrugging their shoulders. One suggested MCAT. Consistently the answer was MD is not out of reach at all. More than a few people have suggested moving, and one or two (of the ones I consult for) said if we didn't have a relationship already and I had applied there, I would have been snapped up.

My request was asking if anyone everyone had conflicting advice from medical school given we had one outlier. The DO school (number 2) which gave significantly weird responses which confused the hell of me and I literally just put the weirdest ones up on this post. Someone answering WHY the DO school had such problems with things like research etc and told me to strip the publications. Every single thing they told me was in direct conflict with every other medical school I've spoken to and goes against everything I have ever learned on SDN. That was literally the entire point of this post. I also know that one school's adcomm was giving me more general seemingly canned advice as apparently the advice is the same for almost anyone I've spoken to. The other half was canned and half was not.

My most recent leadership experience ended in 2013 with the assault so yes I have nothing for just over a year. I have to prove I am healthy enough to take my position back at least they gave me a position back even when I was still recovering and are allowing me a chance to prove that I am healthy. The last time I took treatment for issues relating to the assault was December when I was offered more physical therapy for my arm but I declined due to insurance. I was still on pain meds until early this year. For the position I need to get back, I need to be off the narcotics for 6 months before I even consider trying which puts me as eligible next month right in time for the BoD meeting. I want to finish up the project I am working on and come into being their leadership again in a rather big way to prove I am fine.

All of mine have been from family/friends. I have had two separate nearly 24/7 6 month shifts, one that was 24/7 for a few weeks, one that was part time for 3 years then full time for 2 years (my partner and I split it). Oldest started 11 years ago. Most recent ended last year when I was assaulted when I was taking my charge, a disabled boy, to the doctors office. Yes I was assaulted AT a doctor's office, luckily not by the doctors or nurses but by a person in the waiting room.

One of many reasons I work from home is because I'm used to having to drop everything to help whoever is. I certainly did not do any of these things for the hours although I think it was mentioned in one of my letters that I did it (one actually is a personal letter FROM the patient). I did not do any of that for the hours. Any ethical person would have done it. I do think all of this proves why not nursing. I am really tired of helping people pee. After the assault, I got paid back by some of them. I almost was asked to help with a friend's grandfather in March but luckily they realized I wasn't healthy enough to help out. That one actually would have likely been a paid position. I say luckily I didn't get it because there are other things going on there and I would be an emotional wreck by the time he passed as he has one of the disorders that I am most scared of.

You mean like the post above where you try to shove DO in my face? Or Caribbean? Or post again when I call you out on it? I've seen your username before give little help.

 

[el_duderino]

I agree with that poster. Your application itself sounds fine, more or less. It's your school list that is a huge problem. And perhaps your attitude, but that's more difficult to determine.

 

[familyaerospace]

I am retaking the mcat when the new results come in, I will be completely analyzing the entirety of all allopathic schools in depth because my spreadsheet that I made 4 years ago needs to be updated as I have two more things that are important that need considerations while the other thing that was such a big deal is much more common now. But I am not worrying about that part of the issue until roughly January.

 

[type12]

Every response you give is filled with paragraphs of excuses. You overcompensate, you defend, and you take offense. This feedback is not an attack, so don't take it as such. Justifying your situation to us does nothing. You need to step back and stop defending every point with some sob story. Frankly, the longer this thread goes, the more entitled you sound.

I've applied more times than you, with much more impressive ecs and background by an english mile. I, too, asked for feedback, and got the same BS spewed by me. Maybe I'm just more perceptive, but it was obvious they were avoiding whatever the real issue was, and clinging to anything as an excuse. Either they knew and didn't want to tell me, or they didn't have a f###ing clue, both possibilities unhelpful in a future cycle.

There was one woman at Virginia Tech Carillion who finally just told me the truth of the situation: I'm too old, and tried one too many times. She went through my application, said she "could not put down" my personal statement, and had to speak to me about it. Then she told me to remove all of it because it was too controversial (i.e., defied authority when they wanted me to lie; didn't allow a huge figurehead in MSSM from getting away with sexual harassment, but ultimately being fired for it). She applauded me for standing up for the other sex, but, because I am old (28), and have a proven, recent history of defying authority, these stories actually hurt me even though they were supposed to show compassion for my fellow man. It shows I won't be able to change my ways.

After a really long conversation (I was at work, and got in trouble for taking a 2 hour lunch break), she invited me to apply to her school after I do x,y, and z. We talked very often on the phone for a while, but when I sent in my application, she stopped picking up. I emailed her, and she didn't reply. I was rejected from the school without interview, so I asked for feedback. Turns out, she had passed away. I cared less about my umpteenth failure than I did about losing someone who was so genuine, sincere, and a friend.

The story is true, yet a sob story filled with excuses. It doesn't change the bottom line: my application has shortcomings, and repeated attempts only look so impressive up to a point. After that, they wonder why you haven't been accepted for this long.

I'm going to be honest, I strongly believe DO is your only option. It is more than likely that your number of attempts have made it impossible (as it has for me) to get into a US MD school. Even schools you haven't applied to can speculate your failure rate through your AMCAS ID number (they increment by 1).

You want to be a doctor, or just have the letters "MD" at the end of your name? The second option, I genuinely believe is out of your reach. The first, not necessarily.

 

[occams_razor]

I've applied more times than you, with much more impressive ecs and background by an english mile. I, too, asked for feedback, and got the same BS spewed by me. Maybe I'm just more perceptive, but it was obvious they were avoiding whatever the real issue was, and clinging to anything as an excuse. Either they knew and didn't want to tell me, or they didn't have a f###ing clue, both possibilities unhelpful in a future cycle.

There was one woman at Virginia Tech Carillion who finally just told me the truth of the situation: I'm too old, and tried one too many times. She went through my application, said she "could not put down" my personal statement, and had to speak to me about it. Then she told me to remove all of it because it was too controversial (i.e., defied authority when they wanted me to lie; didn't allow a huge figurehead in MSSM from getting away with sexual harassment, but ultimately being fired for it). She applauded me for standing up for the other sex, but, because I am old (28), and have a proven, recent history of defying authority, these stories actually hurt me even though they were supposed to show compassion for my fellow man. It shows I won't be able to change my ways.

After a really long conversation (I was at work, and got in trouble for taking a 2 hour lunch break), she invited me to apply to her school after I do x,y, and z. We talked very often on the phone for a while, but when I sent in my application, she stopped picking up. I emailed her, and she didn't reply. I was rejected from the school without interview, so I asked for feedback. Turns out, she had passed away. I cared less about my umpteenth failure than I did about losing someone who was so genuine, sincere, and a friend.

The story is true, yet a sob story filled with excuses. It doesn't change the bottom line: my application has shortcomings, and repeated attempts only look so impressive up to a point. After that, they wonder why you haven't been accepted for this long.

I'm going to be honest, I strongly believe DO is your only option. It is more than likely that your number of attempts have made it impossible (as it has for me) to get into a US MD school. Even schools you haven't applied to can speculate your failure rate through your AMCAS ID number (they increment by 1).
You want to be a doctor, or just have the letters "MD" at the end of your name? The second option, I genuinely believe is out of your reach. The first, not necessarily.

Sorry to get off topic but geez how in the world is 28 considered old? Isn't the average matriculant starting at 24-25 now?
I do know someone who is 38 and got in MD last cycle, so there is hope. She did have a 38 MCAT though and unusual life circumstances