Any Navy GME-2 applicants out there??

[helo doc]

Well, tis' the season for the painful "quick, run to the computer, apply via the website, get all your documents in, rank the programs, interview, re-rank the programs, then hurry up and wait for 3 months without developing a generalized anxiety disorder" ritual that marks the coming of a new application process. So... "shipmates*", any of you Navy types out there hear of any "scuttlebutt*" on the "deckplates*" as to the prospects of matching this year? According to the GME website, they predict they'll receive about a gajillion applications for every spot.

I am applying for rads (probably half of the bazillion applicants are too), and I was wondering if anyone has any experience, good or bad, with any of the programs (current/former residents, interns or student who rotated through)? I have a good idea of some of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the programs, but my info is probably 2 years old.

Any "gouge*" would be truly appreciated.


*Denotes Navy terminology that is more irritating than fingernails on a chalkboard.

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[brainDO]

Good luck. I am a new rads pgy2 in the Navy. It is a great field. There is an inordinate amount of knowledge to learn, but we have fun doing it. PM me if you want some specifics.

Andy

 

[Docgeorge]

Good luck. I am a new rads pgy2 in the Navy. It is a great field. There is an inordinate amount of knowledge to learn, but we have fun doing it. PM me if you want some specifics.

Andy

I thought you were doing Neuro Surg at Long Island Jewish?

 

[brainDO]

I thought you were doing Neuro Surg at Long Island Jewish?

I was, but due to family issues I cut my losses early. Returned to GMO land for a year and got into a navy residency. I am having a blast. Best choice I ever made, even if it was also the hardest.

Andy

 

[swampthing]

Well, tis' the season for the painful "quick, run to the computer, apply via the website, get all your documents in, rank the programs, interview, re-rank the programs, then hurry up and wait for 3 months without developing a generalized anxiety disorder" ritual that marks the coming of a new application process. So... "shipmates*", any of you Navy types out there hear of any "scuttlebutt*" on the "deckplates*" as to the prospects of matching this year? According to the GME website, they predict they'll receive about a gajillion applications for every spot.

I hear Navy Rads at San Diego and Bethesda are good, solid programs. But Rads at Portsmouth is going through growing pains. As you may already know, Portsmouth is a new program that just opened.

As for me, I'm applying for Navy Dermatology. Both San Diego and Bethesda are solid Derm programs, but Derm is also the most competitive specialty in the Navy. I consider myself competitive: AOA, 240+ usmle scores, with research and pubs. But I know a few Navy buddies who were AOA and did not get in on their first try. I'll try my best though

 

[NavyFS]

I hear Navy Rads at San Diego and Bethesda are good, solid programs. But Rads at Portsmouth is going through growing pains. As you may already know, Portsmouth is a new program that just opened.

As for me, I'm applying for Navy Dermatology. Both San Diego and Bethesda are solid Derm programs, but Derm is also the most competitive specialty in the Navy. I consider myself competitive: AOA, 240+ usmle scores, with research and pubs. But I know a few Navy buddies who were AOA and did not get in on their first try. I'll try my best though

Swampthing,

Maybe I'll see you on the interview trail. I am reapplying this year. It is competititve and there are only a few who secure a spot the first time around, but from your stats it looks like you could be one of them. Last year two people came out of the gate and landed a spot their first time. Good luck, and maybe I'll see you in San Diego or Bethesda in the next few months!

 

[helo doc]

Glad to see I'm not alone out here on the anti-Military Medicine Forum. A quick question for those in the know, wherever you may be: As a flight surgeon, my PRD on my orders is Feb 07, however in Feb 06 I'll have met the MAT (minimum activity tour) length of 2 years and paid back the 2 year obligation for FS training. Technically this qualifies me to be up for consideration for GME, because that is one of the only things the Navy will let you take orders for prior to your PRD. While that may be technically correct, does anyone know what the real deal is (i.e. do people really get orders to residency before their PRD)?

Good luck to all applying and props to the swampthing (I believe it was Marcellus Wallace in Pulp Fiction - "Check out the big brain on Brad."), btw are you HPSP or USUHS?

 

[swampthing]

Glad to see I'm not alone out here on the anti-Military Medicine Forum. A quick question for those in the know, wherever you may be: As a flight surgeon, my PRD on my orders is Feb 07, however in Feb 06 I'll have met the MAT (minimum activity tour) length of 2 years and paid back the 2 year obligation for FS training. Technically this qualifies me to be up for consideration for GME, because that is one of the only things the Navy will let you take orders for prior to your PRD. While that may be technically correct, does anyone know what the real deal is (i.e. do people really get orders to residency before their PRD)?

Good luck to all applying and props to the swampthing (I believe it was Marcellus Wallace in Pulp Fiction - "Check out the big brain on Brad."), btw are you HPSP or USUHS?

Helo Doc,

I rotated in Radiology at Bethesda and San Diego, as a med student and intern. I liked both programs and thought there were good, solid programs to train at. I also have a few buddies who currently want to go into Rads. One is stationed at Portsmouth and told me about their current 'growing pains'.

I am HPSP. I am like you; my end of obligated active duty service is 2007. I am applying for both Navy and Civilian Derm programs. I would prefer to stay with the Navy and start training in 2006, but you never know with the military. Sometimes seniority beats out academics and you have to wait out your turn (I have been actually told this by Derm attendings). If Navy does not pick me up, then it's 'sayonara' military and I'm going to be a civilian in 2007.

 

[NavyFS]

Glad to see I'm not alone out here on the anti-Military Medicine Forum. A quick question for those in the know, wherever you may be: As a flight surgeon, my PRD on my orders is Feb 07, however in Feb 06 I'll have met the MAT (minimum activity tour) length of 2 years and paid back the 2 year obligation for FS training. Technically this qualifies me to be up for consideration for GME, because that is one of the only things the Navy will let you take orders for prior to your PRD. While that may be technically correct, does anyone know what the real deal is (i.e. do people really get orders to residency before their PRD)?

Good luck to all applying and props to the swampthing (I believe it was Marcellus Wallace in Pulp Fiction - "Check out the big brain on Brad."), btw are you HPSP or USUHS?

helo doc,

You are correct. You can only be eligible for GME after your MAT is fulfilled. You will be eligible next year (2006) for GME regardless of your PRD.

 

[Trajan]

Quick question to all of you PGY-2 applicants in the Navy. How selective are the two Navy EM residencies if you are completing a GMO/FS/UMO tour? I ask because I'm not sure if I should apply for an EM deferrment (I'm currently an MS-3/HPSP student), do all of my committment as a GMO or FS and then do EM as a civilian, or try to match at San Diego or Portsmouth EM after a two-year tour.

Thanks!

 

[usnavdoc]

Quick question to all of you PGY-2 applicants in the Navy. How selective are the two Navy EM residencies if you are completing a GMO/FS/UMO tour? I ask because I'm not sure if I should apply for an EM deferrment (I'm currently an MS-3/HPSP student), do all of my committment as a GMO or FS and then do EM as a civilian, or try to match at San Diego or Portsmouth EM after a two-year tour.

Thanks!

Depends if you have been to the desert lol

Im hearing alot of talk from specialty leaders that they are looking to take GMOs who have gone first. And cushy FS, UMO, shipboard assignments arent what they are interested in.(Obviously I am not talking about every FS or UMO billet)

But I would absolutely go for the FD. That way all of your payback is as a BCP(You would still likely deploy though) and IMO Military residencies cant compare with the training you recieve at a good civlian program. Sure there may be exceptions to certain specialties, but EM isnt one of them. This is all just my opinion so take it for what its worth....

 

[GMO_52]

Depends if you have been to the desert lol

Im hearing alot of talk from specialty leaders that they are looking to take GMOs who have gone first. And cushy FS, UMO, shipboard assignments arent what they are interested in.(Obviously I am not talking about every FS or UMO billet)

But I would absolutely go for the FD. That way all of your payback is as a BCP(You would still likely deploy though) and IMO Military residencies cant compare with the training you recieve at a good civlian program. Sure there may be exceptions to certain specialties, but EM isnt one of them. This is all just my opinion so take it for what its worth....

As someone who just finished off one of those "cushy" shipboard assignments and spent much of the last 2 years away from home, I have to say I think you're deluding yourself if you think that PD's care about what you did. All they want is the check in the box that you did your time so they can justify taking the people they want.

The key to getting back early is having a CO that supports it. He has to write the magic letter saying you have a command endorsement to apply. Get that and you're golden.

 

[usnavdoc]

As someone who just finished off one of those "cushy" shipboard assignments and spent much of the last 2 years away from home, I have to say I think you're deluding yourself if you think that PD's care about what you did. All they want is the check in the box that you did your time so they can justify taking the people they want.

The key to getting back early is having a CO that supports it. He has to write the magic letter saying you have a command endorsement to apply. Get that and you're golden.

In the past you are right all they cared about was the check in the box. Now things are a little different. This years cycle of GMOs to lejeune brought a few returning docs from ships who will tell you that Navy PDs do care about your assignments, awards(combat awards and CARs) and combat experience. Which you do not get as a GMO on a ship. If you think otherwise you are the one deluding yourself. You will come away with a NAM or possibly a COM but you are competing against others with the same awards and who have done so under fire. For whatever reason this is a valued commodity. Personally I think the system should be based on the same grounds as the civ match but it isnt.

As far as the cushy comment, I didnt mean to get in a pissing contest but since we seem to be. Granted you deployed but so did everyone else for the same time periods. Ship GMOs(as well as most FS and UMOs) spend there time in AC environments, working out in a gym, eating decent food in the Officers Mess and taking port calls. Sure you tool around in the gulf and the AC doesnt work so well there and if your on a small boy the gym is pretty bad. However, We spend our days in a 130 degree hole wearing a flak vest and helmet with no AC at all eating MREs and not showering for long periods at a time. Oh and to top it off we get to experience direct and indirect fire. So yeah you had a cushy life on ship.

Anyway this has the potential for a long battle and i really dont care enough to put forth the effort. Just happy I have 9 months to go till I start Terminal then off to civ residency.

I again say the best bet is to opt for full deferment if you get it come in at that time and serve as a BCP. If for whatever reason you are not selected then pick an internship at SD or Portsmouth for exposure to the depts. Then do whatever GMO tour you want based on what you like. The time in any GMO tour is miserable if you are unhappy.

 

[NavyFS]

In the past you are right all they cared about was the check in the box. Now things are a little different. This years cycle of GMOs to lejeune brought a few returning docs from ships who will tell you that Navy PDs do care about your assignments, awards(combat awards and CARs) and combat experience. Which you do not get as a GMO on a ship. If you think otherwise you are the one deluding yourself. You will come away with a NAM or possibly a COM but you are competing against others with the same awards and who have done so under fire. For whatever reason this is a valued commodity. Personally I think the system should be based on the same grounds as the civ match but it isnt.

As far as the cushy comment, I didnt mean to get in a pissing contest but since we seem to be. Granted you deployed but so did everyone else for the same time periods. Ship GMOs(as well as most FS and UMOs) spend there time in AC environments, working out in a gym, eating decent food in the Officers Mess and taking port calls. Sure you tool around in the gulf and the AC doesnt work so well there and if your on a small boy the gym is pretty bad. However, We spend our days in a 130 degree hole wearing a flak vest and helmet with no AC at all eating MREs and not showering for long periods at a time. Oh and to top it off we get to experience direct and indirect fire. So yeah you had a cushy life on ship.

Anyway this has the potential for a long battle and i really dont care enough to put forth the effort. Just happy I have 9 months to go till I start Terminal then off to civ residency.

I again say the best bet is to opt for full deferment if you get it come in at that time and serve as a BCP. If for whatever reason you are not selected then pick an internship at SD or Portsmouth for exposure to the depts. Then do whatever GMO tour you want based on what you like. The time in any GMO tour is miserable if you are unhappy.

I think I tend to agree with usnavdoc on this issue. Half of your point total for JSGME selection comes from "utilization tours" and "potential as a Navy officer". This is somewhat subjective and I feel individuals who have distinguished themselves during their GMO/FS/UMO tours will score higher. The sandbox is the sandbox though and alot of us have gone over.

As for the MS3, I think your decision will have to depend on if you enjoy deploying or not. You can either go twice; first as a GMO/FS/UMO and then as a ER physician or you can go once if you secure a deferment and go as a board certified physician. These are obviously very general terms and situations. Everyone's experience is different.

usnavdoc is also right about GMO utilization vs FS utilization too. Although it seems like there is likely some bitter feelings on his part (rightly deserved), I have had an excellent time as a Flight Surgeon and would do it all again gladly. (I know this is not a popular view on this forum) That being said, I will likely be separating from the service next year.

 

[Globus P]

Does anyone know the "ideal" internship for one interested in EM? I asked that question to the EM PD in Portsmouth, but only got the expected answer of "all internships are welcome" full knowing he had to give me that "official" answer. He did say they have chief residents from all sorts of internship types.

Please tell me if this is doable or if you know of anyone whose done this successfully:
FM internship at Camp Lejeune/Pendleton, roll into a GMO tour at those locales, then select for EM at Portsmouth/San Diego.

Thank you. BTW, I'm a MS3 on HPSP trying to plan my future.

 

[usnavdoc]

[/QUOTE]usnavdoc is also right about GMO utilization vs FS utilization too. Although it seems like there is likely some bitter feelings on his part (rightly deserved), I have had an excellent time as a Flight Surgeon and would do it all again gladly. (I know this is not a popular view on this forum) That being said, I will likely be separating from the service next year.[/QUOTE]

Im not really bitter. Im glad I did what I did for the most part. Im sure we all serve in whatever capacity proudly. My first statements were really said in a humorous context(or so I thought), Although I dont tend to back down when prodded. Been with the Marines too long I guess.

 

[usnavdoc]

Does anyone know the "ideal" internship for one interested in EM? I asked that question to the EM PD in Portsmouth, but only got the expected answer of "all internships are welcome" full knowing he had to give me that "official" answer. He did say they have chief residents from all sorts of internship types.

Please tell me if this is doable or if you know of anyone whose done this successfully:
FM internship at Camp Lejeune/Pendleton, roll into a GMO tour at those locales, then select for EM at Portsmouth/San Diego.

Thank you. BTW, I'm a MS3 on HPSP trying to plan my future.

You can do the FM internship but you would have better access to the programs and attendings if you did a transitional or surgery at Portsmouth or SD. If it were me I would look hard at transitional and make sure you do a few months in a civ setting(trauma and EM).

You can always come to camp lejeune/pendleton/29 palms.

End the end its up to you

 

[r90t]

I think I tend to agree with usnavdoc on this issue. Half of your point total for JSGME selection comes from "utilization tours" and "potential as a Navy officer". This is somewhat subjective and I feel individuals who have distinguished themselves during their GMO/FS/UMO tours will score higher. The sandbox is the sandbox though and alot of us have gone over.

Utilization tour points....if you get a 2.3 fitrep with less the stellar comments (can't lead, shot self accidentally, went ua, etc..) vs sitting on a ship and getting a 4.4 walks on water fitrep(Best dept head, Top wardroom officer, promote now, yada,yada), the shipboard guy will get more subjective points.

4.0 GMO with desert experience vs 4.2 GMO from clinic/ship with equal remarks would likely go to the guy in the sand.

My specialty leader did not care if I had deployed or not, when it came to utilization tour points. I was informed prior to my post internship orders that I needed a solid fitrep to get the needed points for my program, regardless of the location of the world it came from.

 

[swampthing]

One of my buddies just interviewed at NMC San Diego Anesthesia. And guess who happened to be in the San Diego area...Navy GME officials (Mr. Pelot and ?CAPT Miller?). My buddy plans to rank San Diego #1. But he is from an East Coast squadron based in Florida. He asked the Navy GME officials what are the chances of him getting approved to make the "East Coast-to-West Coast" move. They told him point blank that this year they are strapped for money and his chances are low that he will go to San Diego. However, the last few years, there were a number of people who made opposite coast-to-coast moves. So I don't know what to believe. Maybe they were throwing smoke up my buddy's $#%!.

Regardless, my buddy is still ranking SD #1.

I thought I'd just pass the gossip. Any thoughts or insight from salty sea dogs out there?

 

[helo doc]

Since I'm potentially in the same dilemma (east coast), I've asked those same questions about cross country moves. Keep in mind for the past several years, the word on the street had been that the Navy doesn't want to move you from east to west coast or vice-versa because of funding. Again, this had been only rumor. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first year that the residency application instructions have specifically stated the PCS (permanent change of station) monetary concerns. The almighty dollar is THE driving force behind all the changes afoot in military medicine (e.g. PBD 712 (military to civilian conversions), BRAC, drawdown), so any chance to save a dollar is a potential fitrep bullet for someone in GME land. And now that the wording about PCS funding has been included in this year's GME instruction, the Navy is executing a classic CYA move to prevent hordes of bitter applicants from complaining about the fact that they didn't get their first choice programs.

I've been told that the key to getting a move across country is to get your desired location's program director to "go to bat" for you by making you their NUMBER ONE draft pick. It would be nice to think that once the program directors divvy up the best applicants among the 3 programs then that would be the end of it. However... the office of the chief of the medical corps will have representatives there to keep costs down by squashing potential costly cross-country moves. If your prospective PD is willing to fight for you, then you'll stand a chance of getting the slot. If you're a mediocre applicant on the east coast, start looking for a house in Portsmouth or a townhouse near Bethesda.

After having interviewed in person and via phone with all of the big 3, I can definitely tell you that the PD's talk to each other about applicants. So, one word of advice would be don't BS them and say "I'm definitely ranking ______ as my number one choice" to all 3. Not a wise move.

Happy hunting!!

 

[aatrek]

whats up everyone..
I am not sure if surgery is just different, or if people just fear the speciality leaders and program directors. I can tell you that for the last two years I have been on constant contact with my speciality leader and three program directors (who make up the committee that will decide if you get a gme2 spot or not) and they have been more than helpful and (for the last two years anyway) been 100% correct on everything they told me..

I am applying for preselection this year and I have two emails from (from SD and my speciality leader) virtually granting me the approval in advance.

I encourge all of you to email your higher ups and see what needs to be done to get in. Knowing someone or talking to them goes a long way.

For all of you out there that will look at this and start crying "typically unfair mil... blah blah blah.." please get a life.. I have served on four selection bored in four different private/public inst. across the us (east and west coast) and this exists EVERYWHERE...

thanks..
:0)
A

 

[NavyFS]

whats up everyone..
I am not sure if surgery is just different, or if people just fear the speciality leaders and program directors. I can tell you that for the last two years I have been on constant contact with my speciality leader and three program directors (who make up the committee that will decide if you get a gme2 spot or not) and they have been more than helpful and (for the last two years anyway) been 100% correct on everything they told me..

I am applying for preselection this year and I have two emails from (from SD and my speciality leader) virtually granting me the approval in advance.

I encourge all of you to email your higher ups and see what needs to be done to get in. Knowing someone or talking to them goes a long way.

For all of you out there that will look at this and start crying "typically unfair mil... blah blah blah.." please get a life.. I have served on four selection bored in four different private/public inst. across the us (east and west coast) and this exists EVERYWHERE...

thanks..
:0)
A

General Surgery is different. Like FP and IM, some people are still going straight through from their intern year. From your posts it seems like you are just starting internship and that you're at the very beginning of your Navy medical corps career. More competitive specialties like Dermatology, Radiology, and Ophthalmology NEVER train straight through and have more applicants per spot than any of the other residencies. Knowing people does help, but if you don't have the numbers, you don't have the numbers....

Also, when you say, "three program directors (who make up the committee that will decide if you get a gme2 spot or not)", are you talking about Navy PD's from the flagship hospitals, because they technically only rate 1/3 of your package - 20 points from each branch of the military. If you have them all rooting for you and you have a good package though, you'll be golden.

People can email their "higher ups" all they want, but for any of the more competitive specialities, it becomes more about your longterm past performance than who you know. Selection criteria and point system information is out there if you're looking for it.

 

[aatrek]

General Surgery is different. Like FP and IM, some people are still going straight through from their intern year. From your posts it seems like you are just starting internship and that you're at the very beginning of your Navy medical corps career. More competitive specialties like Dermatology, Radiology, and Ophthalmology NEVER train straight through and have more applicants per spot than any of the other residencies. Knowing people does help, but if you don't have the numbers, you don't have the numbers....

Also, when you say, "three program directors (who make up the committee that will decide if you get a gme2 spot or not)", are you talking about Navy PD's from the flagship hospitals, because they technically only rate 1/3 of your package - 20 points from each branch of the military. If you have them all rooting for you and you have a good package though, you'll be golden.

People can email their "higher ups" all they want, but for any of the more competitive specialities, it becomes more about your longterm past performance than who you know. Selection criteria and point system information is out there if you're looking for it.

ok ok.. I think we are all talking about completly different things..
first of all I am not starting my internship.. I am a surgeon already..
the question was about fellowships and thus I mentioned the three program directors. that is because in the navy fellowship trained ind. end up (for the most part) in one of the three hospitals, and thus their needs to be at least one program director from those three places that would say that they NEED that fellowship for it to be realistically considered.

I do not know what happens with gmos or with people that go throught the mil prior to acually finishing thier speciality. as I have said in the past, I can not understand at all why someone would EVER put such IMPORTANT decisions in the hands of others (thus my reservation againist programs like HPSP.. )..

A

 

[NavyFS]

ok ok.. I think we are all talking about completly different things..
first of all I am not starting my internship.. I am a surgeon already..
the question was about fellowships and thus I mentioned the three program directors. that is because in the navy fellowship trained ind. end up (for the most part) in one of the three hospitals, and thus their needs to be at least one program director from those three places that would say that they NEED that fellowship for it to be realistically considered.

I do not know what happens with gmos or with people that go throught the mil prior to acually finishing thier speciality. as I have said in the past, I can not understand at all why someone would EVER put such IMPORTANT decisions in the hands of others (thus my reservation againist programs like HPSP.. )..

A

Ahhh, I guess I misunderstood. This thread is about GME-2 though like you mentioned in your original post, not fellowship.

 

[aatrek]

gme -2 IS FOR both, Residency and Fellowship.

http://www-nshs.med.navy.mil/gmeapplication/gmefaq.asp#6

Hense, my comments above.

A

 

[NavyFS]

gme -2 IS FOR both, Residency and Fellowship.

http://www-nshs.med.navy.mil/gmeapplication/gmefaq.asp#6

Hense, my comments above.

A

I get your point. I guess I always thought GME-2, by definition, meant 2nd year Graduate Medical Education, which is what this entire thread has been discussing. No one has mentioned fellowship training anywhere.

Your Naval Health Sciences link refers to GME-2 + though which makes sense to include fellowship as well.

Anyway, good luck with fellowship training!