Any broke doctors out there?

[plainolerichie]

I have a question about finances in medical school. I am currently accepted at UT Memphis (my state school), NYMC, and I recently got accepted into Keck.

I really want to go to Keck, would be happy at NYMC, but the estimated cost of attendance for me (with scholarships) would be 61K for Keck, 27K for UT Memphis, and and 44K for NYMC. I am not exactly sure what I want to do, but most likely surgery or orthapaedics (if I can get that kind of residency). I am not sure if I will enter research, academic medicine, I do want to keep my options open though and not go to a school that would be suicide for other options. Anyways, my question is this:

For practicing doctors, specifically surgeons, is the possible 240K debt really that hard to pay? I know that is a ton of money, but is it a matter of waiting 3 or 4 years to get a new house and car after residency and just staying in an apartment, or would it be crippling for most of my life no matter how I look at it (I know it's more complex than that). Would it stop a doctor from living comfortably for his or her whole career? Looking at this link I just found google searching, it would be two year's salary for the average starting general surgeon.

Please help!

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[supercut]

I have a question about finances in medical school. I am currently accepted at UT Memphis (my state school), NYMC, and I recently got accepted into Keck.

I really want to go to Keck, would be happy at NYMC, but the estimated cost of attendance for me (with scholarships) would be 61K for Keck, 27K for UT Memphis, and and 44K for NYMC. I am not exactly sure what I want to do, but most likely surgery or orthapaedics (if I can get that kind of residency). I am not sure if I will enter research, academic medicine, I do want to keep my options open though and not go to a school that would be suicide for other options. Anyways, my question is this:

For practicing doctors, specifically surgeons, is the possible 240K debt really that hard to pay? I know that is a ton of money, but is it a matter of waiting 3 or 4 years to get a new house and car after residency and just staying in an apartment, or would it be crippling for most of my life no matter how I look at it (I know it's more complex than that). Would it stop a doctor from living comfortably for his or her whole career? Looking at this link I just found google searching, it would be two year's salary for the average starting general surgeon.

Please help!

I am a graduate of UT Memphis. Let me just say that at first, I wasn't all that excited about going there (except for the fact that it was my only option). Looking back now that I've done a couple years of residency, I am so glad I went there. The experience you get in the clinical years as a medical student is stellar. I did two away electives as a 4th year, and now am a resident at yet another program. None of these places had a comparable clinical experinece for the students. You really get good hands on and are part of the team. Plus, the surgery department in particular is very welcoming of medical students...if you show up at the MED in the trauma center day 1 of medical school, they will put you to work! I scrubbed cases as first year student and had the opportunity to work (for $) as a suture tech (they hire students to help sew laceration in the ED) By the time I finished, I was well known to all the surgery residents and attendings, as well as many of the non surgery attendings/residents. Many of the nurses outside of the trauma area thought I was a resident, cuz when I was on other rotations I would just jump in. On OB I delivered several babies completly unassisted by the resident (she was there ready to jump in but didnt' touch the baby). I first assisted a number of cases. I could start a subclavian central line on just about anybody, as well as put in chest tubes.

My classmates who wanted to do ortho hooked up with the ortho dept early on and all who wanted to managed to work on research projects, in addtion to always being welcomed into the OR at any time (and being allowed to play with the toys) Plus they have a very prestegious ortho program, and often take their own into it.

I wound up matching at a very good program in the northeast (scored an interivew at Mass General but didn't match there). We have a much more expensive private medical school here, and the expectations of the students is much lower on clinical rotations. They are basicall spectators on most of their rotations. Plus they do almost nothing in the OR.

If you think you want to be a surgeon, go to UT Memphis! (yeah, Memphis is kinda a sucky place to live, but that's part of what makes it a great place to learn medicine) It will save you $$ and help you get tons of hands on experinece. (that said, many of the residents when I was there found it to be very malignant for them...but the students almost universally had a great time and a high percentage of both the class ahead of me, my class and the class behind me went into surgery)

 

[Dr. V]

I have a question about finances in medical school. I am currently accepted at UT Memphis (my state school), NYMC, and I recently got accepted into Keck.

I really want to go to Keck, would be happy at NYMC, but the estimated cost of attendance for me (with scholarships) would be 61K for Keck, 27K for UT Memphis, and and 44K for NYMC. I am not exactly sure what I want to do, but most likely surgery or orthapaedics (if I can get that kind of residency). I am not sure if I will enter research, academic medicine, I do want to keep my options open though and not go to a school that would be suicide for other options. Anyways, my question is this:

For practicing doctors, specifically surgeons, is the possible 240K debt really that hard to pay? I know that is a ton of money, but is it a matter of waiting 3 or 4 years to get a new house and car after residency and just staying in an apartment, or would it be crippling for most of my life no matter how I look at it (I know it's more complex than that). Would it stop a doctor from living comfortably for his or her whole career? Looking at this link I just found google searching, it would be two year's salary for the average starting general surgeon.

Please help!

I am not a practicing doctor yet, I just graduated and I start my surgical residency July 1st.

However, I can shed some light on this for you. The interest rate as of July is supposed to be 6.7%. You have to pay interest on some of those loans while you are in school so the final bill after 4 years will be much higher than 244 grand. However, assuming it is only 240, and assuming the interest rate doesn't go up any more that 240 grand turns into 331,919 after interest acrues during 5 years of residency (you only make 10 bucks an hour as a resident so paying back student loans is usually put off till afterwards).

UT Memphis is a good medical school and it has an excellent reputation for surgery, especially Trauma surgery.

300 grand in student loans is a LOT of debt (and yours will likely be closer to 400 grand truthfully) and it can hamper you even if you make the money of a Surgeon. It is something to think about. Most banks will work with doctors but debt that high can keep you from buying the house you want and lots of other things due to debt/income ratio. I'm not telling you to stay in state and save the money even though that is what I personally would do. Only you can make that decision, and there are more important things in life than money. I just wanted to share a little bit of info with you to give you something else to think about as you make that decision.

Congratulations on multiple acceptances by the way. Good job.

 

[HTD]

You will get a fine education in Memphis and good exposure. The rest is a personal decision.

If you want some extra info, call the UT dean of student affairs and ask them for some statistics about their graduates and matching. They have details and they shouldn't be hesitant to let you see them.

 

[plainolerichie]

It's not a question of will UT be a "good medical school." I'm sure it's fine. No offense to anyone, it's just not the school (or city) that I want to go to. I'm asking specifically about the debt and how hard will it really be to pay it off. I mean will I still be living comfortably after residency, even if I'm making a bit less money will I not?

And what about writing the loans off for income tax?

Plus, from my understanding of Keck, you'll get similar clinical experience at LA County Hospital and more research opportunities.

 

[geekgirl]

It's not a question of will UT be a "good medical school." I'm sure it's fine. No offense to anyone, it's just not the school (or city) that I want to go to. I'm asking specifically about the debt and how hard will it really be to pay it off. I mean will I still be living comfortably after residency, even if I'm making a bit less money will I not?

And what about writing the loans off for income tax?

Plus, from my understanding of Keck, you'll get similar clinical experience at LA County Hospital and more research opportunities.

for some unsolicited advice - go where you will be happy. that encompasses many aspects including day to day living. and location. and opportunities.

regarding finances and debt - if you do end up pursuing the academic track, there are opportunities during research years of residency to apply for loan repayment from the NIH ($30K a year). these are obviously not given to everyone, but there are opportunities out there to knock down the debt.

that said, debt from med school is so huge it makes my head spin. but i don't know any starving MDs. not a single one.

 

[dara678]

i turned down my state school ($8000 tuition) to go to Keck. i have not regretted it in the slightest (i am now an almost-msiii). the clinical experiences you get here, as a first year and beyond are hard to surpass. also, the faculty are exceedingly warm and inviting and will let you shadow and do research very readily.

our matchlist this year was amazing -- 19 students in radiology, with an average step 1 score of 240. 6 in derm, took all the spots in LA except for one. you'll get to do what you want to do here.

i too am going into >$200,000 of debt. i think i will be okay though -- just make sure that you are not the sole provider of your household (i.e. your SO should work) and that will help A LOT. also make a wise choice in what you do for residency.

money is an important consideration, but remember that you are investing four years of your life in some place .. you want to be happy there. personally i thought four years of my life in sunny southern california was a more important consideration than the money .

 

[supercut]

My point was that I thought I didn't want to go to UT Memphis either. But since it was my only choice (and consider yourself lucky to have a choice!) I went and never regretted it. I actually wound up being very happy there.

And keep in mind...the student loan companies are EVIL. They freely give out money like there is no tomorrow, but are not so cooperative when it comes to repayment. The rules are deiliberately obscure so as to force as many people into repayment as early as possible. Many don't care if you are a resident or have limited income. I have had problems with some of my loans, representing about 25% of my total debt...they refuse to grant me deferrals/forebearances, claim they lost paperwork I send, and when I submit a copy of the lost item say "That's not proof you sent it". One even had a court date without notifying me. Finding a lawyer that knows student loan law (other than those that work for the student loan companies and are there working against the borrower) is virtually impossible. THe private loan companies are much worse than federally funded. Even if you can theoretically make the payments when you finally finish training, the hassle of keeping them at bay isn't worth it. Keep your debt as low as possible.

 

[TheThroat]

Wow, sorry to hear about your loan cos. Mine (Sallie Mae and then consolidated into Chela) have been nothing but a breeze to work with. Of course, I can't forbear the loans bc/ even on a resident's salary, I make too much, so I defer them, which is no biggee, considering they are only at around 4 % interest.

That said, I have only 80 K in loans, so they aren't hanging over my head. My advice: try to get into the most well-respected public med school that you can. You keep you loans low, but your options open. Obviously, that isn't always possible.

 

[TheThroat]

for some unsolicited advice - go where you will be happy. that encompasses many aspects including day to day living. and location. and opportunities.

regarding finances and debt - if you do end up pursuing the academic track, there are opportunities during research years of residency to apply for loan repayment from the NIH ($30K a year). these are obviously not given to everyone, but there are opportunities out there to knock down the debt.

that said, debt from med school is so huge it makes my head spin. but i don't know any starving MDs. not a single one.

I know guys who have gotten the loan replayment from the NIH. It is sweet, but the competition for it has gotten pretty extreem, so I wouldn't count on it.

There is no such thing as a starving MD, because it is a job that is always in demand and always pays above the 90th percentile of all jobs.

 

[TheThroat]

300 grand in student loans is a LOT of debt (and yours will likely be closer to 400 grand truthfully) and it can hamper you even if you make the money of a Surgeon. It is something to think about. Most banks will work with doctors but debt that high can keep you from buying the house you want and lots of other things due to debt/income ratio.

400 K in debt? I can't imaging anyone getting that in debt from med school. Even if you are paying for a high-priced private med school, there are always scholarships available. My friend went to Duke Med, where the tuition is pretty high, but with scholarships, which are available to pretty much everyone, it was much more affordable. That said, I think that he is around 150 K in the hole. I have never talked to anyone coming out with over 200K in debt.

Also, I have never heard of a doc being turned down on a loan. Docs have some of the highest job security in the nation and, on average, one of the highest average incomes. That said, if someone had 400K in debt, a bank might think twice.

OK, three posts in a row...time to end the madness.

 

[Kubed]

I have never talked to anyone coming out with over 200K in debt.

It's happening more and more now. I just finished my fin aid paperwork for next year: $54k. Schools keep raising tuition because you can always find a pre-med who is willing to pay whatever the bill is...

...sigh...

 

[Dr. V]

400 K in debt? I can't imaging anyone getting that in debt from med school. Even if you are paying for a high-priced private med school, there are always scholarships available. My friend went to Duke Med, where the tuition is pretty high, but with scholarships, which are available to pretty much everyone, it was much more affordable. That said, I think that he is around 150 K in the hole. I have never talked to anyone coming out with over 200K in debt.

Also, I have never heard of a doc being turned down on a loan. Docs have some of the highest job security in the nation and, on average, one of the highest average incomes. That said, if someone had 400K in debt, a bank might think twice.

OK, three posts in a row...time to end the madness.

I used the exact numbers she gave for how much she would borrow for her budget at that school. That's what she will have to pay to go to that school. My figgures were lowball because I didn't add in any interest during medical school either, just interest during the 5 years of residency for Surgery.

Doctors are denied loans all the time because of Debt to Income ratio. It doesn't matter if you make a million dollars a year, if your debt to income ratio it too high you don't get the loan. A debt of 300-400 thousand dollars will put a serious dent in your debt to income ratio and can cause you not to be able to buy a house for a few years etc.

I will agree that most of the time doctors that get into financial trouble do so because of their own mistakes, but it is easy to do especially when you have a boatload of debt coming out of school. Usually they start buying things before paying debt off and get too high of debt/income and it's a downward spiral from there.

Several doctors went bankrupt because of TennCare here in Tennessee a few years ago. They were primary care and didn't limit the number of TennCare patients. They lost money on every one of them and lost everything they had.

Just because we have a high income doesn't mean we can ignore basic economics. Debt is an albatross that will drown you very quickly.

I'm not trying to throw water on the fire or anything. I know happiness is more important than money. I'm just saying that no matter what reality says we must look at the good and the bad before we make a decision.