antigua

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peseshet

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I need background information on the University of Health Sciences medical school in Antigua. Any help will be greatly appreciated. I am not interested in attending, I just need to know if its a legitimate school that awards doctorates of medicine. Their websites states that it has several online courses.

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:D Goodluck in getting an MD degree without actually attending medical school.
peseshet said:
I need background information on the University of Health Sciences medical school in Antigua. Any help will be greatly appreciated. I am not interested in attending, I just need to know if its a legitimate school that awards doctorates of medicine. Their websites states that it has several online courses.
 
Ignore any online medical school. There are lots of students who have fallen into this trap. The results are horrible. In many cases, it ruined the students lives.

Antigua booted the university off the island (so they could recieve more funding from the current Antigua university).

Stay away from that medical school and all like it.
 
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This statement from their website, likewise, is a bold-faced lie:

Consequently, our students are able to do their Residences and Practices in any part of the United States.

http://www.uhsa.ag/pstudent/bs-md/accreditation.htm

Graduates of the University of Health Sciences in Antigua, another Caribbean island, are banned in four states.

http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.57647/column.htm

Are you going to trust a school that clearly and openly lies on their website?

-Skip
 
There is a new school in Antigua, by the way, called American University of Antigua. It was set-up by a lot of former Ross executives and professors (some of whom even instructed me not that long ago). It has no affiliation with the other discredited school, and it seems that the education model is very similar to Ross'.

http://www.auamed.org/

Neal Simon is the former president of Ross. Dr. Nagy Milik, one of the professors there, is also one of the best instructors I've had to date.

They have some affiliation with a medical school in India (that I don't know much about). Apparently, you can do your pre-clinicals either in Antigua or in India, and then you're guaranteed your clinicals in the U.S., just like most of the bigger more reputable Carib schools. They don't list on their website how much tuition is.

Gonna definitely keep my eye on this and see how these guys do... these aren't amateurs that have never done this kind of thing before. I'll bet if they can get the students, it'll turn into one of the better schools in the Caribbean. Time will tell, tho. (And, Antigua is sure a whole hell of a lot nicer than Dominica.)

-Skip
 
Thanks everyone for their response. I am not interested in the school. I just wanted more information to see how shady the operation was. I came into contact with a recent graduate. Something just was not quite right with their "experience" there. 8 years spent and no actual license to practice nor did they complete a residency.
Thanks again,
Kesha
 
This medical school could be promising but only time will tell. So many med schools have opened and folded over the years, that I would feel a lot more comfortable going somewhere that has a PROVEN track record. You could also be at a disadvantage applying to more competitive residencies if the PD is not familiar with your medical school or has not had experience with other grads from such a new institution. Additionally, some states such as Texas and California may not recognize your training and you will find yourself up a creek down the road trying to get a license. My advice- stick with SGU, Ross, AUC, perhaps Saba in that order.
 
peseshet said:
8 years spent and no actual license to practice nor did they complete a residency.

Exactly.

-Skip
 
azskeptic said:

I was going to stay out of this since everyone has a right to an opinion and I have all but been ran off of SDN. However, when opinions become false misrepresentation of information, then this could cause harm to all involved.

First let me try to make this clear that the court did not order Dr. Thomas from using the MD degree because he graduated from UHSA. In fact, Dr. Thomas is a Licensed Dentist whom went to UHSA and was using his degree in a very professional manner. The board stressed that Dr. Thomas was not a licensed physician however and that no unlicensed physician can use the title MD. This is in the disposition people. If you like to conform what I'm saying just read it for yourself.

Dr. Thomas education was brought up, but was not the basis for the decision of the judge nor from the board. However, Azskeptic would like to paint the picture that just because Dr. Thomas was a graduate of UHSA, that's why he was barred from using the MD title. This is clearly not the case and if you look at the disposition, Kansas law forbids anyone from using the MD title who is not licensed in that state. This is regardless of what school you graduated from.

Before some of you get on here and start to bash me, let me say that I would have never responded to this issue if the discussion was left with people opinion of online studies in medical schools. However, when opinions start to become false accusations, this is something that needs to be addressed.

It saddens me that people on this site who are medical students and future medical students will go to all lengths to try to ruin another persons life. This is indeed sad and becoming a our future physicians. Because of this, I've remained in the background and have not spoken much on this issue. Those whom have ears let them hear.

To O.P., your question started off like this:
I am not interested in attending, I just need to know if its a legitimate school that awards doctorates of medicine.

Yes, UHSA is a legitimate school accredited by their government to issue MD degree's and undergraduate degree's. If it were not it would not be ECFMG certified nor would it be listed in IMED who does an intensive investigation on any medical schol wishing to be listed with them. IMED contacts the government of the country the school is located to verify all information sent in by the school. Had UHSA been a diploma Mill or some false business, it would not be listed with IMED. Another source of information is to contact the Ministry of education or the Ministry of Health. If they are listed with them, they are legit.

Your next post went like this:

I just wanted more information to see how shady the operation was. I came into contact with a recent graduate. Something just was not quite right with their "experience" there. 8 years spent and no actual license to practice nor did they complete a residency.


Personally, I don't think that UHSA is shady, whatever you mean by this term. The school has been around for more than 10yrs and has licensed graduates in the US. How shady can they be? Someone spending 8yrs in medical school is questionable to me. It's questionable since UHSA doesn't have an 8yr curriculum. On top of this, one cannot become licensed in any US state nor any other country without doing a residency. You mentioned the individual did not do a residency. Why would that person apply for licensure without finishing a residency program? Did that person even have a passing score on the USMLE? Did the person have ECFMG certification? From what you left out, it would seem that the person went to UHSA did a pre-med curriculum there, enter the full medical program (You don't mention if this person did basic science online, yet, everyone assumed that the person did his/her basic science online) rather that be online or on campus, graduated and then applied for medical licensure without completing a residency. No medical student does this. You also failed to mention which state this individual applied for a licensure in. UHSA is banned in 4 states, so it's obvious that if the individual applied for licensure, he/she would be denied if they applied for licensure in those 4 states or any other state which does not accept distance learning curriculum within medical schools.

From another perspective, if the student had completed residency, passed the USMLE, obtained a ECFMG certificate and applied in a state which does not ban medical schools from using distance learning program within their curriculum (Yes there are states that don't ban medical schools based on this issue), who knows what may have happened to that individual.

Since I attend a medical school that does use distance learning within their curriculum, I have done a lot of research on this issue. Though many feel that I'm wasting my time and money, that's their opinion. Their opinion could be fact based on the state that I apply for licensure. From what I have learned not all states ban distance learning from within medical education. As long as there are some state that do not look at how you learn medicine, there's still many options for me when it come time for me to apply for licensure. Aside from this, there are also other countries which do not have such laws/rules as some of the US states and strictly base your eligibility of licensure on your ability to pass their physician licensing exams. However, that's my view and it's not shared with alot people as you can see from the response of your post.

If you like to PM me you can. In the meantime, I wish you all the best of luck.
 
well, here is the way to check it out. Go to www.yahoo.com and type in
UHSA-Antigua licensed graduate and find ONE licensed graduate since 1985 (prior to 1985 the school was a traditional school). You can't find any....resaon? There are none. THey have some students in residencies but those who did their MD degrees while working full time jobs as chiropractors,podiatrists,etc. risk losing it all as states (last count 17 I made) ban licensing grads of online schools.

why go to a school like IUHS/UHSA/Oceana/MCL/LCM or St. Luke, the african school when you have schools that are easily licensed such as Ross, SGU, AUC, Saba, and increasingly SMU and MUA.

az skeptic p.s. the article from KS says that the education was inferior...infer from that whatever you want but it doesn't say good things about UHSA,despite what you seem to think.
 
azskeptic said:
well, here is the way to check it out. Go to www.yahoo.com and type in
UHSA-Antigua licensed graduate and find ONE licensed graduate since 1985 (prior to 1985 the school was a traditional school). You can't find any....resaon? There are none. THey have some students in residencies but those who did their MD degrees while working full time jobs as chiropractors,podiatrists,etc. risk losing it all as states (last count 17 I made) ban licensing grads of online schools.

why go to a school like IUHS/UHSA/Oceana/MCL/LCM or St. Luke, the african school when you have schools that are easily licensed such as Ross, SGU, AUC, Saba, and increasingly SMU and MUA.

az skeptic p.s. the article from KS says that the education was inferior...infer from that whatever you want but it doesn't say good things about UHSA,despite what you seem to think.

azskeptic said:
well, here is the way to check it out. Go to www.yahoo.com and type in
UHSA-Antigua licensed graduate and find ONE licensed graduate since 1985 (prior to 1985 the school was a traditional school). You can't find any....resaon? There are none. THey have some students in residencies but those who did their MD degrees while working full time jobs as chiropractors,podiatrists,etc. risk losing it all as states (last count 17 I made) ban licensing grads of online schools.

why go to a school like IUHS/UHSA/Oceana/MCL/LCM or St. Luke, the african school when you have schools that are easily licensed such as Ross, SGU, AUC, Saba, and increasingly SMU and MUA.

az skeptic p.s. the article from KS says that the education was inferior...infer from that whatever you want but it doesn't say good things about UHSA,despite what you seem to think.

First, let me say this, going to Yahoo.com is not the best way to find licensed graduates from any medical school. Would you go to Yahoo.com or Google.com and type in licensed graduates from Temple university medical school and think that you'll find a list of all graduates from Temple university medical school? Try it, because I did on both sites. The result was poor. However, if you contact the school itself and ask for the names of recent graduates from that school then do a search on AMA or a state medical boards website for physician verification, you'll find the names and years they graduated.

Second, UHSA does not list how their students did their studies. So if they say that a student graduated 3yrs ago, it will not say that the student did distance learning. Neither will the boards list this information. So, how do you tell if a recent graduate was on campus or off campus. The answer is very simple, you don't know. You can only assume that if the individual is licensed, that he or she must have attended on campus.

Third, Az, you keep saying that those who did their studies online and are in residency or already licensed will lose thier license as time goes on. This is simply false. I can't understand why you continue to spread this false information around. Perhaps it's because you simply do not want to believe that UHSA does have students who are licensed who went through the distance learning program, or your just ignorant of licensing laws. Better yet, show us all the rule/law that says that all licensed physicians who did basic science via distance learning will have their license revoked. If anything simular to this is going to happen, medical boards would simply ban all graduates from these schools. I say these schools because you seem to be under the impression that these particular schools are the only schools which has distance learning within their curriculum. Although, these schools are the first to develop the entire basic science portion of the curriculum via distance learning, they are not by far the only medical schools which has some portion of thier curriculum via distance learning. In the next 10 years, we'll see the first US medical schools who are in the process of developing thier basic science online come to light. I have already provided you with the names of these medical schools. If anyone wants to see this list, look up IVIMED. There are medical schools not on this list as well.

You say 17 licensed physicians have had their licensed revoked for doing their basic science via distance learning. Show me who they are. Provide me with the information. Because I have yet to run across any medical board revoking physicians licensures due to the physician having taken distance learning courses during their medical education. This is something that would not be done in the background and would gain attention of the press. So, if what you say is true, then there has to be some press related information on this. If not the press, then I'm sure the medical board would be making this very clear now to any applicant for licensure.

Lastly, you ask why attend these medical school when you have Ross, AUC or other carribean medical schools that are easily licensed? That is an answer only the student themselves have to answer. It may not be logical to you or to any other person on this site or in reality. However, the same question can be said about attending a carribean medical school which has been discuss on this site. Why attend a carribean medical school when you can attend a US DO or US MD program and be easily licensed in all 50 states with no stigma attached? My reasons for attending a non-carribean medical school has alot to do with how I feel towards carribean medical schools. I don't care how good they are, how many licensed physician's they have here in the US or that 1% of a graduating class of 300 student recieves a top competitive residency spot. None of this is important to me. To someone else, this is very important. Please do not think that I'm bashing the carribean medical schools. I'm stating how I feel. Nonetheless, I decided that I would never attend a carribean medical school based on my own research of the carribean medical schools. I would much rather attend Flinders, Ghana University school of medicine or another foriegn medical school before I ever head down to the carribean to attend medical school. Now, I know you may ask why I didn't apply to these schools? Truth be told, Flinders accepts the best of the best US citizens. My GPA would not even allow me to compete with the excellence they accept. Ghana University doesn't have a MD program, so I crossed that off my list. The other non-carribean foreign medical schools are in locations who's culture I would have to learn and adjust to, not to mention language difficulties. Thus, now you know my reason for choosing the medical school that I now attend. Distance learning was not in my original plan. However, due to the war in Liberia, all students from Liberia was placed in the distance learning program or asked to wait until the campus could be rebuilt. Which I must say the campus they are building is wonderful and will not be located in Liberia but just outside of Liberia. That's a whole different subject though.

With that said, as far as the education at UHSA, I don't know much about it other than what students have said who contacted me. We have a couple of students from UHSA who transfered to our school. Not only has the school administrators told me that they have licensed graduates in the US, but also students who attended that school and now attend my medical school. So, who should I believe, Azsepktic who can't seem to find a licensed graduate since 1985 or the student who just transfered into my school? None them talked down about UHSA other than US state acceptance of their school. I say all this because I'm not trying to convince anyone to come my school or UHSA or IUHS. I say this because Azsepktic goes out of his way to try to discredit a good medical school only because it has distance learning within it's curriculum. Not because the schools are putting out dangerous physicians who have a history of harming the public. If this was the case, I would stand 100% behind Azsepktic and also say that these schools are a danger to public safety.

I'm done with this issue
 
drstudent said:
...

I'm done with this issue

Good.

Everyone else reading this thread, you don't want to go to UHSA in Antigua. On the whole, a very bad choice for most. Barring DrStudent's experiences, you will have enough obstacles going to one of the 'reputable' Caribbean schools as it is. And, fact is, UHSA is not among the list of 'reputable' schools by a long shot.

-Skip
 
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http://www.pitch.com/issues/2004-09-30/news/follow.html

From pitch.com
Originally published by The Pitch Sep 30, 2004

Doctor's Orders
A Kansas court bites off a dentist's M.D.
BY BEN PAYNTER

Last week, the Kansas Court of Appeals ruled that earning a medical
degree on the Internet does not necessarily mean you can market
yourself as a doctor in Kansas. On September 17, judges ordered
Overland Park dentist Steven L. Thomas, D.D.S., M.D., to extract the
latter degree from his title. "Thomas' continued use of the M.D.
designation, without a license, will clearly cause irreparable harm by
misleading the public and hospital staff and by damaging the general
esteem and reputation of such title," the court wrote.

Thomas earned his M.D. in 1999 from the University of Health
Sciences-Antigua, a mostly online medical school in the West Indies.
His previous doctorate in dentistry had fulfilled the general
education requirements for the Caribbean university's "Non-Traditional
Clinical Pathways Program." According to court documents, after Thomas
completed an 18-month crash course online, he spent eight weeks
attending seminars and clinics on the vacation-destination island.

The degree capped a solid academic r?sum?. After graduating from the
University of Missouri-Kansas City's School of Dentistry in 1982,
Thomas completed a residency program in oral and maxillofacial surgery
at the Henry Ford Hospital in Michigan and earned a master's degree in
dental surgery from Baker University. He is licensed to perform jaw,
facial, plastic and cosmetic surgery; he owns a practice at 128th
Street and Metcalf in Overland Park and also treats patients at
Shawnee Mission Medical Center. But his new, fast-track M.D. did not
meet the standards of some states' medical licensing boards.

Prompted by a patient's complaint, the Kansas Board of Healing Arts
filed suit against Thomas in February 2003, alleging in court
documents that the "M.D." misrepresented Thomas' medical training.

In October 2003, the Kansas District Court ruled in Thomas' favor,
saying that because the Board of Healing Arts regulates doctors, not
dentists, and because Thomas' practice was rooted in his licensed
dentistry procedures, the complaint was moot ("Oral Argument," June
17, 2004).

According to the Appeals Court's new ruling, though, "Thomas' use of
the M.D. designation could mislead the public to believe his medical
training is similar to that of a licensed M.D."

"You cannot use it in a way [to suggest] that you are treating
injuries, deformities, et cetera," says Mark Stafford, attorney for
the Kansas Board of Healing Arts.

Thomas maintains that the decision had nothing to do with his skills
as a dentist. "The court was not asked to rule on the quality or
quantity of my education," Thomas told the Pitch in an e-mail last
week. "The question before the court was whether I, as a dentist, fell
under the jurisdiction of the Board of Healing Arts, when the Kansas
statute clearly said I did not." On that question, though, Thomas
lost. His e-mail to the Pitch suggested that he would appeal.

"It [the medical degree] simply expanded the extent of my knowledge
and made me a better oral surgeon. I think patients have a right to
that information, and the court should not prohibit me from sharing
it," Thomas said.
 
First of all, oral and maxillofacial surgery programs vary in length between 4-6 years. One's that are 4-years are spent in the hospital doing MD rotations through ENT, plastics, anest, internal med, etc. the 6-year ones allow a dentist to do 1-2 years of MD rotations and get a medical degree as well. So obviously the AMA in the US is acknowledging that Dentist have done "at least" the first two years equivalent med science courses. Not only that.. but having an MD as well as his dental degree does not change his "scope of practice". Dentists who don't have MD's are licensed to do surgery ranging from cleft lip/palate repair, facial cosmetic surgery, head and neck cancer removal, facial and cranial trauma reconstruction, etc. So I don't see how this is really even an issue. He's not misleading anyone. He earned the degree, Dentists without the degree do the exact same procedures and diagnose the exact same things.

Would a student who graduated from a US medical school but never attained a license and then subsequently completed a MPH degree and was practicing epidemiology and advertised themselves as so and so MD, MPH... would they be asked to remove the MD from their name?
 
OzDDS said:
First of all, oral and maxillofacial surgery programs vary in length between 4-6 years. One's that are 4-years are spent in the hospital doing MD rotations through ENT, plastics, anest, internal med, etc. the 6-year ones allow a dentist to do 1-2 years of MD rotations and get a medical degree as well. So obviously the AMA in the US is acknowledging that Dentist have done "at least" the first two years equivalent med science courses. Not only that.. but having an MD as well as his dental degree does not change his "scope of practice". Dentists who don't have MD's are licensed to do surgery ranging from cleft lip/palate repair, facial cosmetic surgery, head and neck cancer removal, facial and cranial trauma reconstruction, etc. So I don't see how this is really even an issue. He's not misleading anyone. He earned the degree, Dentists without the degree do the exact same procedures and diagnose the exact same things.

Would a student who graduated from a US medical school but never attained a license and then subsequently completed a MPH degree and was practicing epidemiology and advertised themselves as so and so MD, MPH... would they be asked to remove the MD from their name?

If the degree was attained through correspondence from a non-accredited school the answer is yes they might be forced to not use the degree.

You have to admit that 8 weeks of physical attendance is less than you would get if yo went to a US school that gives MD degrees?

Oral surgeons are well trained in oral surgery but they are not MD's. If one goes to a person thinking that they have both training, they should have it from someone who went to medical school training,not through a computer.
 
I'm not saying I think UHS Antigua is the best general medical education. But I am saying that if your an oral and maxillofacial surgeon and having the MD or not having the MD has no affect on what your really doing. ie. guys who are DDS and MD are doing the same things as guys who have just DDS. The dental license covers every procedure he was doing. then what's to argue. also.. I think one of the posts said he actually had like 18 months med education.. because some of that was rotations in US hospitals. that is the way most Carrib grads do it anyways. Plus his basic sciences was so short because he already has credit for all the basic sciences from medical school.. that's the idea right? That is how US med schools do it for some OMFS residencies anyways. just a thought.
 
OzDDS said:
I'm not saying I think UHS Antigua is the best general medical education. But I am saying that if your an oral and maxillofacial surgeon and having the MD or not having the MD has no affect on what your really doing. ie. guys who are DDS and MD are doing the same things as guys who have just DDS. The dental license covers every procedure he was doing. then what's to argue. also.. I think one of the posts said he actually had like 18 months med education.. because some of that was rotations in US hospitals. that is the way most Carrib grads do it anyways. Plus his basic sciences was so short because he already has credit for all the basic sciences from medical school.. that's the idea right? That is how US med schools do it for some OMFS residencies anyways. just a thought.

Trust me, guys with MD/DDS's in the US license as MD's because they have privileges at hospitals without having to have someone sign off on them as a dentist does,etc. also insurance pays for more procedures than it does for dentists. A person with an MD/DDS still has to do clinicals in the US under supervision so has better training than a diploma mill school that has you find 'mentors' to do clinicals under. But the most important thing is probably that you have a real degree; one tht isn't questioned. A 8 week miracle MD is not going to get you far in the US or anywhere else.

In no way am I saying that an oral surgeon isn't well trainined in what he does..I am saying he isn't an MD who is just lacking the title....nope, he is a well trained oral surgeon with a specific scope of practice.
 
Dentists get hospital rights wheather they have the MD or not. and don't need anyone to "sign them off", They are doctors... they do full scope maxillofacial surgery.
 
if patient A goes to an OMFS who has both a dental and medical license to have orthognactic surgery , and patient B goes to an OMFS who has a dental license but no medical license for orthognactic surgery. Insurance will reimburse for the same amount. insurance reimbursement depends on procedure done, not by which OMFS did the procedure.
 
I'm glad that someone see's the pettiness of this case besides me.
 
OzDDS said:
if patient A goes to an OMFS who has both a dental and medical license to have orthognactic surgery , and patient B goes to an OMFS who has a dental license but no medical license for orthognactic surgery. Insurance will reimburse for the same amount. insurance reimbursement depends on procedure done, not by which OMFS did the procedure.

Nice straw man, OzDDS.

The issue is about a dentist who "went" to UHSA, got a bogus degree (at least according to this state's laws), and then tried to market himself as an MD. You should be asking which doctor a "Joe Average" patient is more likely to go to to have a surgery: a DDS or an MD/DDS. Reimbursement rate is completely irrelevant to the bigger point being made here.

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
Nice straw man, OzDDS.

The issue is about a dentist who "went" to UHSA, got a bogus degree (at least according to this state's laws), and then tried to market himself as an MD. You should be asking which doctor a "Joe Average" patient is more likely to go to to have a surgery: a DDS or an MD/DDS. Reimbursement rate is completely irrelevant to the bigger point being made here.

-Skip

This issue was not about a dentist who went to a bogus school. Why try to read into a case when only the mention of the school and his education was questioned, yet the major point was a Dentist using the MD title who was not licensed as a MD? That was the reason for the appeal. Dr. Thomas didn't appeal because he fault that his education met the requirements of the state. He appealed because he felt that using the MD title was in no way misleading to the public. If this was entirely about his bogus medical school degree, then why didn't the court stress that in the appeal rather than him not using the MD title as misleading? Second, why would a judge rule on the first case that the doctor should be able to use the MD title after his name because it's not misleading to do so if this was nothing more than about Dr. Thomas bogus medical school degree? Third, would his education be inferior if he had did residency, passed all steps of the USMLE, obtained ECFMG certification and had become licensed? The answer to the latter is you don't know, neither do I. Since this is not a case about a Dentist who became a licensed physician after attending a bogus medical school, we don't know what would have happened.

Unless Kansas is one the states that have banned UHSA and/or require attendence at the school, we have no idea if this dentist would have been licensed or not. However, you can assume that he would not be able to get licensed, but that's just your opinion. And, it's your opinion of distance learning education that is leading you to believe that the only reason that Dr. Thomas was enjoined from using the MD title is because of his medical education. So, you ignore all the rest of the disposition and focus only on the one part that the board mentioned as an issue eventhough it's not clear why it's an issue.

Yet, I guess people will read into this case anything they want particulary those who have something against those who do their basic science via distance learning. For these people, this is clearly a sign that if you do your medical education via distance learning, this is the results. There no debate on that point because it's no different than 2 christian's debating over the bible about the interpretation of the words. I guess that's why we have over 90 different beliefe's in christianity, so it will be with medical students as well. On one side you have those who believe in distance learning and on the other you have those who don't. Who is right? The truth shall only be known in time.

-Dr.2B
 
I completely disagree with distance learning for medical education, unless it's CE credits after you graduate. Which you can already get currently from the back of magazines. :) No medical school that gives you a degree via some work you've done online will ever be a respected institution. But this was not my point. My point was, Who cares if the oral and maxillofacial surgeon has 1 or 2 degrees. It doesn't make him any more competitant or allow him to do any different procedures than he is already doing. So what's the point. And like I said, he (an oral and maxilliofacial surgeon) can still get hospital rights and does not need an MD to "sign him off". The guy did do I think I remembered reading 18 months of rotations.. some of the OMFS residencies in the states allow you to do 1 year (12 months) ie. an M4 year incorporated into the residency and then recieve an MD. who cares.. so what if he thought this would make him more marketable.. of course it does, that's why he did it. but he's not misleading the public because.. it has no affect on his scope of practice, or really his competance as a surgeon.
 
OzDDS said:
I completely disagree with distance learning for medical education, unless it's CE credits after you graduate. Which you can already get currently from the back of magazines. :) No medical school that gives you a degree via some work you've done online will ever be a respected institution. But this was not my point. My point was, Who cares if the oral and maxillofacial surgeon has 1 or 2 degrees. It doesn't make him any more competitant or allow him to do any different procedures than he is already doing. So what's the point. And like I said, he (an oral and maxilliofacial surgeon) can still get hospital rights and does not need an MD to "sign him off". The guy did do I think I remembered reading 18 months of rotations.. some of the OMFS residencies in the states allow you to do 1 year (12 months) ie. an M4 year incorporated into the residency and then recieve an MD. who cares.. so what if he thought this would make him more marketable.. of course it does, that's why he did it. but he's not misleading the public because.. it has no affect on his scope of practice, or really his competance as a surgeon.

Ok....I agree with your statment concerning the dentist, Dr. Thomas, however, if you think that no medical school where a student can get a degree via doing some work they've done online will never be a respected institution, then I guess that's how you feel about it. I accept how you feel :thumbup:

Dr.2B
 
drstudent said:
This issue was not about a dentist who went to a bogus school.

This is the only point, the first sentence, in your response that needs to be addressed.

First, if you go back you'll note that I said "bogus degree", not bogus school. The school (and its curriculum, credit, experience, etc., that it offers) has ultimately no importance to me. You could go to the Colleen O'Haras College of Beauty and get your medical degree (if they offered them) for all I care and that would be peachy if it was actually recognized by every state and, more importantly, was esteemed by residency programs directors for turning out quality medical graduates.

No. What this case amounted to was a dentist who wanted to tack-on a medical degree to his credentials and somehow separate himself from his colleagues by being able to superficially call himself a medical doctor. In doing so, he essentially "bought" a medical degree from UHSA with little additional training and then went on to advertise himself as a medical doctor. The State of Kansas, not I, determined that his degree was "bogus" and has disallowed him to call himself a medical doctor.

This is not hard to understand.

What you should be doing, DrStudent, instead of pseudo-defending the actions of this dentist, is railing against them and the school for allowing such things to happen. If you truly want the perception of legitimacy for your medical degree, you should advocate strongly against allowing people to get advanced credit and then put themselves on the radar screen at various state licensing boards. Contrary to popular belief, many licensing boards do have reciprocity and communicate with each other across state lines. If you get your license yanked in one state, there's a good chance that other states will summarily suspend your license as well.

You should be angry at this dentist for trying to pull this stunt (and, yes, it was a 'stunt') and trying to cheat the system of medical education to gain what is tantamount to a marketing advantage over his colleagues. What he has only truly succeeded in doing, in fact, is to ensure that every graduate of UHSA who attempts to submit his/her credentials to the Kansas licensing board at the very least gets heavy scrutiny, and probably non-issue of a license, from this point forward.

I'd be pissed, if I was you, instead of trying to defend this guy's actions.

-Skip
 
OzDDS said:
Dentists get hospital rights wheather they have the MD or not. and don't need anyone to "sign them off", They are doctors... they do full scope maxillofacial surgery.


In the US they don't get full scope of anesthetia,etc. That is why people go to MD/DDS's when they want generals,etc. when removing wisdom teeth,etc.
 
How can that be when both the DDS MD guys do the exact same length in anesth rotations as the single degree guys.
 
Both dual degree and single degree OMFS are both licensed to do IV sedation in office, otherwise they usually get an anesthesiologist to provide general in the hospital. That goes for both single and dual degree OMFS guys.. I don't see how it's any different.
 
Skip Intro said:
This is the only point, the first sentence, in your response that needs to be addressed.

First, if you go back you'll note that I said "bogus degree", not bogus school. The school (and its curriculum, credit, experience, etc., that it offers) has ultimately no importance to me. You could go to the Colleen O'Haras College of Beauty and get your medical degree (if they offered them) for all I care and that would be peachy if it was actually recognized by every state and, more importantly, was esteemed by residency programs directors for turning out quality medical graduates.

No. What this case amounted to was a dentist who wanted to tack-on a medical degree to his credentials and somehow separate himself from his colleagues by being able to superficially call himself a medical doctor. In doing so, he essentially "bought" a medical degree from UHSA with little additional training and then went on to advertise himself as a medical doctor. The State of Kansas, not I, determined that his degree was "bogus" and has disallowed him to call himself a medical doctor.

This is not hard to understand.

What you should be doing, DrStudent, instead of pseudo-defending the actions of this dentist, is railing against them and the school for allowing such things to happen. If you truly want the perception of legitimacy for your medical degree, you should advocate strongly against allowing people to get advanced credit and then put themselves on the radar screen at various state licensing boards. Contrary to popular belief, many licensing boards do have reciprocity and communicate with each other across state lines. If you get your license yanked in one state, there's a good chance that other states will summarily suspend your license as well.

You should be angry at this dentist for trying to pull this stunt (and, yes, it was a 'stunt') and trying to cheat the system of medical education to gain what is tantamount to a marketing advantage over his colleagues. What he has only truly succeeded in doing, in fact, is to ensure that every graduate of UHSA who attempts to submit his/her credentials to the Kansas licensing board at the very least gets heavy scrutiny, and probably non-issue of a license, from this point forward.

I'd be pissed, if I was you, instead of trying to defend this guy's actions.

-Skip

Your right Skip, I stand corrected. I didn't look at it from that perspective at first, but having given your words some thought, I agree with you. Thanks for helping me see that.
 
Skip Intro said:
Nice straw man, OzDDS.

The issue is about a dentist who "went" to UHSA, got a bogus degree (at least according to this state's laws), and then tried to market himself as an MD. You should be asking which doctor a "Joe Average" patient is more likely to go to to have a surgery: a DDS or an MD/DDS. Reimbursement rate is completely irrelevant to the bigger point being made here.

-Skip
Although I disagree with the way he went about getting an MD.. although he wrote it down on his buisness card, he was still marketing himself as an Oral and Maxillofacial surgeon.. which is no different. Everthing he was licensed to do was given to him by rights of his dental license and residency training. He had no need for a medical license anyways.
 
OzDDS-

I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

There is no issue that this dentist can practice surgery and get admitting privileges at hospitals. That has NEVER been the issue here. What has been the issue is the fact that he felt it necessary, regardless as to whether it actually was or wasn't necessary (and I agree it probably wasn't), to get an "MD" degree from UHSA. He then decided to add this to his business card, practice permit, etc. and advertise to the public that he was also a medical doctor in addition to a practicing oral-maxillofacial dentist/surgeon. What motivated him to do this is irrelevant, although it was probably to garner more business by those who were flipping through the yellow pages looking for someone to yank out their wisdom teeth.

Now, what the State of Kansas has determined is this: the degree he's received from UHSA is not legal and he cannot add it to his advertised credentials, as he has done. My point about the cosmetology school is that he could have just as well simply added "MD" to his name without any degree, and it would have been just as illegal. UHSA is not legally recognized, as this dentist has done it, to allow him to add "MD" to his credentials. It was a gimmick. It was "cutesy" and he probably thought of himself as being quite clever, despite that he wasn't really changing the scope of his practice.

However, the Kansas ruling very clearly states that, in adding this MD which he was not legally entitled to do according to state law, his practice was then "likely to be confused with the M.D. designation in referring to themselves, their businesses, or their services in the context of holding out to the public in the offering or in the rendering of professional services, or representing themselves as medical doctors in any manner which would tend to mislead or confuse the public."

That's the only point.

The other issues you bring up are not, and never have been, in dispute. So, there's no point in continuing to attempt to address them. You are factually correct; your points are still irrelevant to this discussion.

-Skip
 
actually I am bringing up a small point.

perhaps someone who is in a hospital can ask this there. Can a dentist give a general in your hospital? I believe the answer is no.....an MD can...but someone licensed as a DDS can't...may be wrong..that is why dentists/podiatrists have protested hospital rulings in the past that they must have an MD sign off on orders.
 
azskeptic said:
Can a dentist give a general in your hospital? I believe the answer is no.....an MD can...but someone licensed as a DDS can't...may be wrong..that is why dentists/podiatrists have protested hospital rulings in the past that they must have an MD sign off on orders.


Can a DDS give general anesth? is that what you mean without being signed off by an MD.
 
OzDDS said:
What about this guy.. http://www.oralfacialmemphis.com/staples.html He has a "General Anesthesia License". I think you can do general anesth without anyone "signing you off".

My guess is in a hospital he would be required to have his partner, who is an MD/DDS sign off on it but I could be wrong...any folks here in a residency in a US hospital who can tell us how it works for dentists?
 
azskeptic said:
My guess is in a hospital he would be required to have his partner, who is an MD/DDS sign off on it but I could be wrong...any folks here in a residency in a US hospital who can tell us how it works for dentists?

The MD partner wouldn't have to sign off on it anymore than the DDS would for his MD partner, but the fact is these guys are SURGEONS. They don't do anesthesiology at hospitals any more than an ENT or orthopaedics would. OMFS's do general anesthesia in their offices for "simple" cases w/the help of a nurse, etc. When OMFS's do big cases they get an anesthesiologist to run the anesthesia show for them. This is the same for any surgical specialty.

Degrees don't give you hospital privileges. Experience does and the ability to document and prove it to hospital granting boards.

Having stated that, personally I think what the OMFS did was poor form.
 
based on the kansas rulings, its not a matter of a degree being not legal. its the title of MD. the decision re-inforces a precedent that physicians are not allowed to advertise themselves as practicing MD's without licensure.

a school doesn't get licensure. schools are only recognized. LCME in the US, AOA for DO's and ECMG, IMED, WHO, etc for everyone else.

Schools try to meet the criteria of various licensing bodies to make it easy for students to obtain their goals. Thats it. Licensure is up to each individual. If you want licensure, you need ECMG certification passing USMLE scores, clinical skills assement etc, the appropriate number of hours of basic and clinical sciences. States like Cali also have regulations about the length and location of clerkships/rotations. Finally, you have to do an approved residency program. If you don't do all that, you can't advertise yourself as a practicing MD.

i think this is a subtlety thats being overlooked.

obviously, licensure in the US is harder to get for students coming from lesser known schools, they have to prove the quality of their curriculum and education. its even harder to get licensure for students from schools with online curriculums,as some states have banned this, and so it makes sense that it must be essentially impossible for someone to get licensure coming from an extremely accelerated program that is largely online/distance learning.
usually the biggest setbacks to foregin medical students is 1. getting passing scores on the USMLE stage I . 2. securing appropriate rotations 3. securing a residency

Students from US allo and DO schools avoid a lot of this mess because, well they don't have as many hurdles, but also their schools won't actually graduate them until they've gone through most of the hurdles they do have like all stages of the USMLE. short of completing residency, you've covered everything by the time you get your piece of paper. thats the big difference with some foreign schools, thats not always the case.

so its really 2 issues.

1. first and foremost, don't call yourself a practicing MD unless you're actually licensed

2. make sure your school can get let you get licensed where you want to practice, or be willing to practice where you can get licensed.
 
River13 said:
The MD partner wouldn't have to sign off on it anymore than the DDS would for his MD partner, but the fact is these guys are SURGEONS. They don't do anesthesiology at hospitals any more than an ENT or orthopaedics would. OMFS's do general anesthesia in their offices for "simple" cases w/the help of a nurse, etc. When OMFS's do big cases they get an anesthesiologist to run the anesthesia show for them. This is the same for any surgical specialty.

Degrees don't give you hospital privileges. Experience does and the ability to document and prove it to hospital granting boards.

Having stated that, personally I think what the OMFS did was poor form.

Yes, agree with what you are saying...but dentists in the US, as are podiatrists, are treated differently than medical doctors when it comes to hospitals.

The article shows a guy trying to circumvent the system. It failed for him.
 
azskeptic said:
Yes, agree with what you are saying...but dentists in the US, as are podiatrists, are treated differently than medical doctors when it comes to hospitals.

Dentists who have completed an OMFS residency admit, operate, and discharge patients the same as physicians...regardless of degrees held. The JCAHO recognizes dentists uniquely in this category along with physicians. Podiatrists are another story and I'm not sure what the basis is for the comparison.

River13 is exactly right concerning anesthesia, except OMFS guys do way more in their offices than other specialties because of the extra anesthesia training in residency.
 
PublicEnemy said:
based on the kansas rulings, its not a matter of a degree being not legal. its the title of MD. the decision re-inforces a precedent that physicians are not allowed to advertise themselves as practicing MD's without licensure.

a school doesn't get licensure. schools are only recognized. LCME in the US, AOA for DO's and ECMG, IMED, WHO, etc for everyone else.

Schools try to meet the criteria of various licensing bodies to make it easy for students to obtain their goals. Thats it. Licensure is up to each individual. If you want licensure, you need ECMG certification passing USMLE scores, clinical skills assement etc, the appropriate number of hours of basic and clinical sciences. States like Cali also have regulations about the length and location of clerkships/rotations. Finally, you have to do an approved residency program. If you don't do all that, you can't advertise yourself as a practicing MD.

i think this is a subtlety thats being overlooked.

obviously, licensure in the US is harder to get for students coming from lesser known schools, they have to prove the quality of their curriculum and education. its even harder to get licensure for students from schools with online curriculums,as some states have banned this, and so it makes sense that it must be essentially impossible for someone to get licensure coming from an extremely accelerated program that is largely online/distance learning.
usually the biggest setbacks to foregin medical students is 1. getting passing scores on the USMLE stage I . 2. securing appropriate rotations 3. securing a residency

Students from US allo and DO schools avoid a lot of this mess because, well they don't have as many hurdles, but also their schools won't actually graduate them until they've gone through most of the hurdles they do have like all stages of the USMLE. short of completing residency, you've covered everything by the time you get your piece of paper. thats the big difference with some foreign schools, thats not always the case.

so its really 2 issues.

1. first and foremost, don't call yourself a practicing MD unless you're actually licensed

2. make sure your school can get let you get licensed where you want to practice, or be willing to practice where you can get licensed.

Very good post, PE. :thumbup:
-Skip
 
azskeptic said:
dentists in the US, as are podiatrists, are treated differently than medical doctors when it comes to hospitals.
QUOTE]

You're wrong here. In hospitals, OMFS dentists are treated the same as physicians. The original guy in question didn't want the MD for hospital privileges, but probably for public marketing.

As a side note, nearly 1/2 of OMFS training programs include an MD from US medical schools integrated with their OMFS residency as well as 1-2 years of General Surgery to further be medically licensed. Below are two examples.

http://www.lsuoralsurgery.com/dept/dept_resid.html
http://sdm.uchc.edu/departments/oralmaxillo/OMFS Website/ProgramOverviewWebsite.htm
 
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2004/10/18/prl21018.htm

PROFESSIONAL ISSUES

Oral surgeons bite at offshore MD degree
Most patients assume anyone calling themselves MD has a medical license, but that's not true with some oral surgeons who are using the designation.
By Myrle Croasdale, AMNews staff. Oct. 18, 2004.


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The Kansas Court of Appeals told Steven Thomas, DDS, in September to stop using MD in his practice. The ruling upheld an earlier decision from the Kansas State Board of Healing Arts.

Dr. Thomas is one of several oral surgeons who have earned medical degrees, primarily from the University of Health Sciences Antigua, and who have included these academic degrees in their titles.


Four of the five board members of the American College of Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeons, of which Dr. Thomas is president-elect, use the MD title. None hold medical licenses.

Many licensed physicians believe that this practice misleads the public and raises concerns about patient safety.

Steven Pearlman, MD, a member of the American Academy of Otolaryngology -- Head and Neck Surgery and president of the American Academy of Facial Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, said this is yet another example of oral surgeons seeking to work beyond their scope.

"This is parallel to what happened in California," where oral surgeons recently tried and failed to win authority to perform elective cosmetic surgery of the head and neck, Dr. Pearlman said.

"If you are hanging MD on your shingle and you're not licensed, that's wrong," he said. "That's absolutely misleading the public. If these oral surgeons want to do this, they should go through the same pathway as U.S. [medical] doctors."

Dr. Thomas would only respond to AMNews via e-mail. "I practiced oral and maxillofacial surgery for 13 years before graduating from medical school, and my practice has not changed as a result of the additional degree," he wrote. "Nor have I gained any 'competitive advantage' as a result of the degree. It simply expanded the extent of my knowledge and made me a better oral surgeon. I think patients have a right to that information, and the court should not prohibit me from sharing it."

He wrote that court documents gave the wrong impression of the degree he earned.

The court opinion states: "Thomas received this degree through an advanced standing program at UHSA where he spent eight weeks on campus in Antigua."

Dr. Thomas said he completed 18 months of clinical rotations in the United States under the supervision of board-certified physicians, interspersed with eight weeks of lectures in Antigua and countless hours of assignments off campus.

FSMB frowns on practice
Neither ACOMS or the American Assn. of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons keeps track of how many of their members use medical degrees but do not have medical licenses. The legality of this practice varies from state to state. But it is considered dubious by many in the medical profession.

James N. Thompson, MD, president and CEO of the Federation of State Medical Boards, said such a practice goes against FSMB licensing guidelines.

"For all intents and purposes, if you use MD or DO after your name, you should be qualified to practice medicine," Dr. Thompson said.

In Kansas, state law prohibits unlicensed doctors from using MD.

In the appellate court opinion, the judge states, "By using the MD designation when he holds himself out to the public, Thomas could mislead the public into believing that he is a licensed MD who is engaged in the treatment or diagnosis of ailments, disease or injuries of human beings."

Mark Stafford, general counsel for the Kansas medical board, said Dr. Thomas was not accused of practicing outside his scope.

"Our goal was simply to get him to stop," Stafford said. "We were not trying to penalize or stigmatize him."

Christina Collins, director of government affairs for the Kansas Medical Society, said the group concurred with the medical board's action.

"Clearly, ... this confers an aura of authority and competence that's misleading," Collins said.

American Medical Association Trustee Rebecca J. Patchin, MD, a California anesthesiologist, said using a degree from an unaccredited medical school further complicated the matter.

"It's confusing to the public when people use a degree from a medical school that's not accredited," she said. "If individuals want to hold themselves out as a physician and surgeon, they should ... hold an active license to practice medicine."

The school Dr. Thomas attended is not accredited by the Liaison Committee for Medical Education, which only accredits U.S. and Canadian medical schools.

Graduates from international medical schools can be licensed in the United States once certain criteria are met. But graduates from UHSA are not permitted to apply for medical licenses in at least two states, California and Indiana.

Steven Guttenberg, DDS, vice president of the ACOMS, also uses the MD designation. Like Dr. Thomas, he obtained his medical degree from UHSA and does not have a medical license.

"The real hubbub is that we don't want to be misleading the public," Dr. Guttenberg said. "If you have a dental license and a medical degree and are practicing oral surgery, that's not deceiving the public."

Dr. Guttenberg said the medical degree gives an oral surgeon additional medical knowledge that benefits patients.

And he said such efforts shouldn't be diminished. "He spent two years to get that degree, and it does give one recognition," Dr. Guttenberg said. "It adds a little bit of prestige and says you have a little more than the next [oral surgeon]."

Dr. Guttenberg uses the MD designation in his practice in Washington, D.C. He said using DDS, MD, doesn't present a patient-safety issue.

"I don't know of a single instance where a member of the public has been injured by someone with a dental license and a medical degree," Dr. Guttenberg said.

But Briant Coleman, a spokesman for the District of Columbia Dept. of Health, said the use of MD without a medical license while delivering health care is not in compliance with District of Columbia Board of Medicine regulations.

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ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
Who they are; what they do
Oral and maxillofacial surgeons, as a specialty within dentistry, perform reconstruction of the maxillofacial and craniofacial complex, including the mouth, face and jaws. They also diagnose and treat diseases related to this region. The American College of Surgeons' guidelines for optimal care require Level I and Level II hospital trauma centers to have oral and maxillofacial surgeons on call. Here's the education path for the specialty.

Four years of undergraduate college.
Four years of dental school.
Four to seven years of hospital-based residency concentrating on the head and neck region, where they train alongside medical residents in general surgery, anesthesia, plastic surgery and otolaryngology. Of the 101 oral surgical training programs, 44 offer dual degrees in dentistry and medicine.
Sources: The American Assn. of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons, the American Board of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery

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Weblink
American Assn. of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons (www.aaoms.org)

American Board of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons (www.aboms.org)

American College of Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeons (www.acoms.org)
 
hello everyone
i need information on auamed,, is it banned from states and its pass rate...etc
 
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