Annuities

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sam1999

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In general annuities are very popular with doctors and high income people because of tax deferred growth and may be some protection against law suits.

What kind of annuities are more preferable? Low cost offered by Fidelity or Vanguard or from insurance companies like variable annuities?

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In general annuities are very popular with doctors and high income people because of tax deferred growth and may be some protection against law suits.

What kind of annuities are more preferable? Low cost offered by Fidelity or Vanguard or from insurance companies like variable annuities?

In general unless you need to invest in tax inefficient vehicles like REITs or Non-Muni Bonds, then tax efficient index mutual funds are usually much better choices for taxable investing than even low cost annuities. There are exceptions of course.
 
In general annuities are very popular with doctors and high income people because of tax deferred growth and may be some protection against law suits.

What kind of annuities are more preferable? Low cost offered by Fidelity or Vanguard or from insurance companies like variable annuities?

are you referring to Whole Life?? I have a Whole Life policy through Guardian. It is protected from lawsuit and growth is tax-free.
 
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I have to disagree respectfully. There is a whole cottage industry built on Index investing. History repeats itself but it does not rhyme same way. If you look at 20th century and divide it 2 parts. Ist half was full of global wars and deep recessions and over all market return was bad and 2nd half was very good.

Now if you divide further. Every 15 to 20 years there is a period of cyclical bull followed by cyclical bear market. Like one in after WWI in 20s uptil 1929 as cyclic bull market, followed by cyclical bear market which is also known as great depression. Then again bull market after WWII until mid 60s followed by cyclical bear market in mid 60/70s- 1982.

We had a unprecedented bull market from 1982 till 2000. I don't know if we ever see that again. In this era all this index funds were invented and book were written like stocks of long run, or coffee house investing etc.
But you do know that for the last 10 years S&P 500 is flat and vanguard total stock market fund (this one includes small cap, by the way small cap had a great run in last 10 years) is also flat.

It depends how do you look at it. If you look at last 15, 20, 25, 30 or longer period you will get incredible data of long term return it is because it did include great run of 1982 -2000. I think you should look at chart not data table and with chart you can easily see rise and fall of S&P 500 over time.

Long story short I am not indexer so I am looking at other options to protect from higher taxes and tax deferred growth.

are you referring to Whole Life?? I have a Whole Life policy through Guardian. It is protected from lawsuit and growth is tax-free.

No, I am talking about variable annuities.

I would appreciate input from others about pros and cons of annuities. or if you have an experience with it.
 
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I have to disagree respectfully. There is a whole cottage industry built on Index investing. History repeats itself but it does not rhyme same way. If you look at 20th century and divide it 2 parts. Ist half was full of global wars and deep recessions and over all market return was bad and 2nd half was very good.

Now if you divide further. Every 15 to 20 years there is a period of cyclical bull followed by cyclical bear market. Like one in after WWI in 20s uptil 1929 as cyclic bull market, followed by cyclical bear market which is also known as great depression. Then again bull market after WWII until mid 60s followed by cyclical bear market in mid 60/70s- 1982.

We had a unprecedented bull market from 1982 till 2000. I don't know if we ever see that again. In this era all this index funds were invented and book were written like stocks of long run, or coffee house investing etc.
But you do know that for the last 10 years S&P 500 is flat and vanguard total stock market fund (this one includes small cap, by the way small cap had a great run in last 10 years) is also flat.

It depends how do you look at it. If you look at last 15, 20, 25, 30 or longer period you will get incredible data of long term return it is because it did include great run of 1982 -2000. I think you should look at chart not data table and with chart you can easily see rise and fall of S&P 500 over time.

Long story short I am not indexer so I am looking at other options to protect from higher taxes and tax deferred growth.



No, I am talking about variable annuities.

I would appreciate input from others about pros and cons of annuities. or if you have an experience with it.

Of course when markets are bad index funds do not do as well. Nothing does. The rub here is picking which actively managed funds are going to outperform their respective index, and then making sure they consistently outperform their index despite higher expense ratios. Their is fairly good financial academic literature as well, and that shows consistently that costs matter, and overtime the outliers in outperformance over their respective indicies tend to revert to the mean, and their higher costs kill them. All variable annuities do is allow you to reduce the tax consequences of taxable investing in tax inefficient investment vehicles. Most often, unless for some reason an investor can not increase their tax deferred or after tax investment options (roth IRAs ect) their is no need for tax inefficient vehicles in taxable accounts. Now like I said before, there are special circumstances to everything, and I can come up with scenarios where variable annuities make sense, especially for high income professionals, but generally, until you have been maxing out your tax deferred investment options for a few years, and paid off almost all of your debt (student loans and even in most cases mortgages) the costs associated with variable annuities do not offset the gains you receive for their tax benefits. This is especially true in my opinion in todays crazy low fixed income interest rate environment. When you are making 4% on intermediate term bond funds, and the annuity costs 1%, then why reinvent the wheel my locking yourself into a high cost vehicle with significant liquidity problems for 3% net per year?
 
There are some great variable annuities out there. I recently helped my mother analyze a bunch of options and here is what I would suggest.

For a portion of your money, buy a variable annuity with a guaranteed income benefit rider. This rider guarantees 5 or 6% each year. Most retired people take this out each year, but the smartest way to use this is to leave it in the annuity as a long-term strategy. You are guaranteed this return (minus expenses, usually 2% or so) no matter which direction the market goes and your account basis grows at 6% per year, even if the principle goes down. This means when you start to withdraw, you will be withdrawing at a minimum of principle plus 6% compounded X number of years....even if the S&P went to 500. The upside is, if the market does better than 6% plus expenses, your basis and principle go up accordingly. It's insurance and growth at 2-3% cost with no tax penalty until you withdraw after age 60 or so.
The money is locked away like all annuities, for a period of time, and you do not want to take the guaranteed income out for as long as possible.
Met Life and AXA have these and are among the highest rated and longest living insurance cos.
I would steer clear of whole life and realize that this should just be for a part of your investments. It's best to buy in with a lump sum, $50K or $100K or more if can.
 
Annuities are expensive (high fees), and you should only consider them after exhausting all tax deductible contributions allowed (SEP, 403b/401k, IRA, etc.). What you seem to be referring to is a self-pension or self-retirement annuity. They are good investment vehicles after exhausting all other retirement options, but generally require a 10 year commitment with high contributions. They have stiff penalties if you miss contributions.
 
In general annuities are very popular with doctors and high income people because of tax deferred growth and may be some protection against law suits.

What kind of annuities are more preferable? Low cost offered by Fidelity or Vanguard or from insurance companies like variable annuities?

This is a great question, and like all great questions, doesn't have a simple answer no matter that you hope it does.

Annuities in their simplest form are CDs. Bank CDs don't pay so well, and better banks pay less than less highly rated banks. Obviously, if you pay less to your customers, your balance sheet will be stronger, right? Same for insurance co CDs, which are annuities. You are treading the line between getting a guarantee from a company which can honor it fully when the time comes and getting a tempting deal.

Two kinds of annuities, basically. Indexed and Variable.
Indexed annuities are tied to or measured against an index, like the S&P 500. Pros: principal or even principal plus minimal interest protection guarantee. When the market is down, YOU don't lose. you pay for these two ways, one is with a cap or maximum you can make. So if index is up 15% you might have a cap of 8% and only make 8% that year, but if index is down 35% (sound familiar?) you would be down 0%, kind of a big deal advantage. Caps change all the time, are low now because markets and interest rates are kind of messed up. Another pro is that these are like back loaded funds. You don't have to pay a surrender charge or penalty if you don't take money out early, same as bank CD. Your agent is therefore paid in part by the other annuity holders who foolishly cash in early, which you won't. Tax-free growth, but you can get that a few other ways too. Its the guarantee that is important to an individual family.

Variable annuities have an uglier history. With this annuity you actually have money at risk. Two buckets, basically, one fixed and one variable. You decide how much to risk in the variable bucket and you stand to lose it all, and its invested in a variety of mutual funds by ins. co, your choice, usually good, but fees, plus insurance costs. The argument against them has always been why pay fees on annuity as well as mutual fund fees when your variable bucket of money is at risk anyway? Tax-free growth is the agent's answer and it can make some sense, but...

YOU are a dr. You are not a retail investor. You are among the highly taxed, and have high exposure to creditors. You are unlikely to have high net worth, unless you inherited or married it, so unlike the Warren Buffett for whom an annuity is not appropriate, it may be for you. You don't get a do-over on your career. You are likely to be a late earner of high income, having given up compounding time, perhaps aquired student debt, and then when you get paid, its late and subject to highest rates. You should be looking not for a product at a time, but for the big picture of your ability to earn and save money for your or your family's future. Most docs work a LONG time, longer than other workers--do they love it? are they workaholics? Or, do some of them HAVE to work longer to catch up. You want to be able to practice because you like it, that's the goal.

So it is the STRUCTURE in which you hold your investments that may make more difference than the investments inside. If you can save money pre tax, you are saving about 40%. So what if an insurance contract costs a % more or less? Doesn't touch the tax bite for hurting or helping your actual returns. Lots of doctors, really good smart ones, focus on fees, which you will see a lot on this forum, because especially the emeritus guys, have been burned by financial advisors, planners, agents, brokers, developers, business partners, etc. You are looking for something concrete to compare. This is actually only one small part of the due diligence needed to help you invest well. As a tax attorney turned financial consultant, married to a doctor, I also belong to that victims' club, and you can learn a lot from victim's about what NOT to do. You are asking what to do NOW? What is best for you and your family.

Not a one size problem. The variable annuity market has addressed its problems of risk by offering two new "riders": GMIB and GMWB, guaranteed income benefits or guaranteed withdrawal amounts. Most don't give your money back like the indexed products at the end of a period, but will guarantee you income at a minimum growth rate, or a sum against which income can be drawn at a minimum growth rate. Good idea and does add safety but some people aren't comfortable not controlling the lump sum rather than the flow. Very recently features of both types of annuities are hybridizing. Your choice will depend on how well the individual can game the system, and yes, this can be done somewhat, and what your purpose is. If you are maximizing your retirement money, you won't need the alacarte riders of death benefit or others. If you need to leave money you don't spend to heirs, you may want this. Met Life has a good death ben policy. This is very family specific. You will probably want flexibility over time, as needs and goals change.

When I mentioned structure earlier, here's an example. I call this the OJ plan. A doctor can have an annuity inside a defined benefit plan, customized to allow him or her larger deductions that a 401K profit-sharing plan. This means the premiums are DEDUCTED, so cost 40% or so LESS than after tax purchase. If your agent isn't discussing this, you don't have one who "gets" doctors' problems. (Its called the OJ plan because OJ Simpson was found civilly liable for killing his ex wife, but still didn't have to give up his NFL pension, which was a defined benefit plan! It has the strongest government asset protection under ERISA (labor) law, done properly. Same with all qualified plans, now can be used together after the three new pension laws and the many new regs of the last several years. This is a benefit which will probably be taken away by the O admin, so you should get it while you can, if you can. So, had you bought the annuity outright, it would cost retail say, 100,000. In the plan, you would not pay the extra 40K in tax so it would cost you only 60K and the 40K you were going to pay the government would be used to pay for a retirement for you instead. Sweet. But there are sweeter tactics still. Your biggest ticket item is tax. Don 't be fooled by insurance agents who talk to you about tax-free growth. They should ALSO ALWAYS be looking to find you DEDUCTIBLE premiums AND tax-free growth. Another great option for you is the retirement plan executives often use to give themselves a "Roth" for those who don't qualify for a ROTH ira or 401K because of too high income. The executive version is even better, since they don't pay full tax on the contributions and they get the benefits tax free in retirement.

I agree you need to be skeptical of low cost, as it often represents either a jetta presented as a lexus, or something is missing. I mean, have you seen Fidelity or Vanguard's balance sheet and headquarters and checked executive salaries? On the other hand there are definitely unfair and overpriced products out there. But face it medicine has its inequitable pay scales too. Ask a pediatric fill-in-the-blank.

Lest you think I am also evading what you hoped was a simple answer, such a buy ING INDEX SIX, or Pac Life Value, I am not. Annuity products and rates change constantly. You should be wary of single company products. NW Mutual goes after residents and signs them up early, did it to us and still does it to docs, great sales technique, but its a single company with agents it owns, so they can't and won't shop for you. Its a good company, but you are better off with a truly independent advisor who can shop around. You are by FAR best off with an advanced planning specialist, and someone who totally understands your tax dilemma, and feels your tax pain. That is the biggest ticket item facing most doctor family budgets so its the first area of defense in saving big bucks. Fees and costs of these products PALE in comparison. So, say an annuity product has 2% in fees whereas another has 1.25%. One is tax deductible at 40% and one isn't. Who cares which one you buy if you get the deduction? You saved 38% vs. 38.75%. I am guessing you get the point. I hope you now start asking about exit strategies and tax on the back end! That also takes some thinking and forethought. I understand your frustration, but there really are professionals in this field who can help you. Unfortunately, the great majority can't. Some financial designations can be obtained for money with a 6th grade education, and some are as hard or harder than medical school. I will, however, give you this. I would have lasted about a half a day in medicine! Its about who you know and what they know. Usually doctors choose advisors by talking to other doctors, or using friends or friends of friends. Banks aren't your friend even if your banker is friendly or IS your friend. In financial matters, knowledge is power. You could have learned this, but you didn't, so you need a professional who did. Ask a lot of questions, insist on seeing it in writing. Another way insurers get away with hurting you is that by the time the annuity is due, you forgot what you bought. NOTHING the agent says matters. You have to read the contract. Seriously. Or get someone to do it for you. I, for example, actually read annuity contracts in bed at night for fun. My radiologist husband is rather horrified but have you seen the stuff he reads all day? Each to his/her own.

You need to know:
Minimum investment?
Amount of annual withdrawals without surrender charges.
terms of riders
strengrh of company
is the offer too good to be true? look hard if one seems a lot better than others
bonus? If so, at what cost?
available investments in variable annuity, how many and how good, and most importantly, how aggressive can you be?
Ask "what's the most I could make in a year?" and what's the LEAST? if its not written down, it doesn't count.
that NO ONE knows the future. NO ONE. That's the investment game: decision-making intelligently with not enough information. Kind of like medicine?

For those here who say avoid annuity and employ muni bonds, or tax-managed equities, well, yes, it depends. First, avoid the highest tax rate on the most money you can. Then look elsewhere. There are ways to buy muni bonds in a basket, cheaper than directly, and some are even insured as to interest payments and payoff at maturity, currently paying over 4% and have some liquidity! Mostly financial and investment decisions are about costs--the more hands money passes through, the less there is left, so finding ways to buy institutional level is really smart, and as a doc you sometimes, most times, can do this. Stay off google and retail sites and read Google Scholar instead. Capital Ideas by Peter Bernstein is a bible, and the smartest in the business are sometimes the CFAs, that's Chartered Financial Analyst. That's for investment risk, not insured non-risk. And yes, I teach CME and would do GME if asked, prefer warm climates but have a soft spot for residents and fellows, now more than ever. Best of luck and thanks for your commitment to soldier on.
 
Fixed annuities will most likely shaft you on inflation.

Variable annuities are like mutual funds with higher fees and ridiculous penalties to lock you in.
 
This is a great question, and like all great questions, doesn't have a simple answer no matter that you hope it does.

Annuities in their simplest form are CDs. Bank CDs don't pay so well, and better banks pay less but have a soft spot for residents and fellows, now more than ever. Best of luck and thanks for your commitment to soldier on.

thanks for taking the time to write this.

Will you plan my future? :D

What do you think of Whole Life as an investment and asset protector to overfund (below MEC) and dump money into? It can be a reliable 6+% interest, protected in divorce and malpractice suits, and withdrawn in "loan form" tax free because it is technically a loan on yourself?

Am I wrong on all this?

thanks
 
thanks for taking the time to write this.

Will you plan my future? :D

What do you think of Whole Life as an investment and asset protector to overfund (below MEC) and dump money into? It can be a reliable 6+% interest, protected in divorce and malpractice suits, and withdrawn in "loan form" tax free because it is technically a loan on yourself?

Am I wrong on all this?

thanks


There is nowhere on earth to get a "reliable 6+%" today.
 
thanks for taking the time to write this.

Will you plan my future? :D

What do you think of Whole Life as an investment and asset protector to overfund (below MEC) and dump money into? It can be a reliable 6+% interest, protected in divorce and malpractice suits, and withdrawn in "loan form" tax free because it is technically a loan on yourself?

Am I wrong on all this?

thanks


I am also looking into possible getting Whole Life through Guardian. They guarantee at least 4% return (tax-deferred) but their returns of late have been around 5.5-6%, even with the economic downturn these past few years.

It appears that with Guardian's whole life plan, the accumulated cash value starts to exceed your cumulative cash outlay by year 11 or 12, and a few more years after that, the interest alone is enough to pay for your yearly premiums.

I'm considering using it to supplement my 401K and other tax-efficient investment vehicles, and not as a sole source of investment. The protection from malpractice suits, favorable use in estate planning ($ can be transferred to children without penalty), modest guaranteed tax-deferred compounded earnings, flexibility in being able to plan for an early retirement and withdraw cash before age 59.5 are among the features that attract me to it.

What makes me a little hesitant are the relatively large yearly premiums, (even though it appears that if you keep the policy for more than 10 years your will easily recoup all your money spent on premiums, and more), and high commissions garnered by the insurance agent.

Some folks stick to the mantra of 'Buy Term and invest the rest' but I'd like to hear more thoughts on this topic. To me, being in the highest tax bracket and investing your extra money outside of a tax shelter does not make a whole lot of sense. We as physicians are also much more liable to lawsuits. Does anyone have any better ideas for investing and allocating your extra cash in a way that 1) is protected from lawsuits 2) can be passed on to your heirs without getting a huge chunk of it taken by Uncle Sam and 3) yields a modestly decent annual return?
 
I am also looking into possible getting Whole Life through Guardian. They guarantee at least 4% return (tax-deferred) but their returns of late have been around 5.5-6%, even with the economic downturn these past few years.

It appears that with Guardian's whole life plan, the accumulated cash value starts to exceed your cumulative cash outlay by year 11 or 12, and a few more years after that, the interest alone is enough to pay for your yearly premiums.

I'm considering using it to supplement my 401K and other tax-efficient investment vehicles, and not as a sole source of investment. The protection from malpractice suits, favorable use in estate planning ($ can be transferred to children without penalty), modest guaranteed tax-deferred compounded earnings, flexibility in being able to plan for an early retirement and withdraw cash before age 59.5 are among the features that attract me to it.

What makes me a little hesitant are the relatively large yearly premiums, (even though it appears that if you keep the policy for more than 10 years your will easily recoup all your money spent on premiums, and more), and high commissions garnered by the insurance agent.

Some folks stick to the mantra of 'Buy Term and invest the rest' but I'd like to hear more thoughts on this topic. To me, being in the highest tax bracket and investing your extra money outside of a tax shelter does not make a whole lot of sense. We as physicians are also much more liable to lawsuits. Does anyone have any better ideas for investing and allocating your extra cash in a way that 1) is protected from lawsuits 2) can be passed on to your heirs without getting a huge chunk of it taken by Uncle Sam and 3) yields a modestly decent annual return?

@Wally

I have a link I can post here regarding WL if you would like. I think it will help you.

I chose Guardian as well. If you stay under "MEC", it can be sooner than 10 years. We planned mine to be self sufficient in 6-7 yrs with paid up additions.

I do not think you have to pay tax on it because it is after tax dollars AND when you withdraw the money it is a "loan" against yourself. Since it is a "loan" AND you are the "lender" AND it is YOUR money, you don't have to pay it back. :D

It is protected in malpractice and divorce.

Let me know if you have any questions. My agent is on the forum too and is a whiz, he'll answer any questions you have without expecting you to buy from him. You know how these forums are...people who are experts LOVE to give away free advice!!!

well here...I'll just give you the link:

http://www.insurance-forums.net/forum/reputable-whole-life-northwestern-mutual-thread16167.html

This thread took on an amazing life of it's own. I tried to keep my convo very chill... "BRNTS" is my agent now. of course "mx_599" is yours truly. I hope it answers some questions for you.

If you have questions it does not answer, I encourage you to post at this site and you will get more professional advice than you ever could anywhere else. Embrace the power of Internet Forums!

I was going to go with Northwestern but ended up with Guardian...
 
Thanks! I am looking into cxl'ing my policy.

I have a tremendous hatred for cash value insurance for young docs who have few assets to start and lots of debt.

That said, canceling an existing whole life policy is an entirely different animal than deciding on whether or not to purchase one. The reason is that many of the fees and commissions are "front loaded". It still may be the best choice to cancel, but you need to have the policy and your overall financial picture looked at- by someone who isn't trying to sell you something.
 
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@Wally

I have a link I can post here regarding WL if you would like. I think it will help you.

I chose Guardian as well. If you stay under "MEC", it can be sooner than 10 years. We planned mine to be self sufficient in 6-7 yrs with paid up additions.

I do not think you have to pay tax on it because it is after tax dollars AND when you withdraw the money it is a "loan" against yourself. Since it is a "loan" AND you are the "lender" AND it is YOUR money, you don't have to pay it back. :D

It is protected in malpractice and divorce.

Let me know if you have any questions. My agent is on the forum too and is a whiz, he'll answer any questions you have without expecting you to buy from him. You know how these forums are...people who are experts LOVE to give away free advice!!!

well here...I'll just give you the link:

http://www.insurance-forums.net/forum/reputable-whole-life-northwestern-mutual-thread16167.html

This thread took on an amazing life of it's own. I tried to keep my convo very chill... "BRNTS" is my agent now. of course "mx_599" is yours truly. I hope it answers some questions for you.

If you have questions it does not answer, I encourage you to post at this site and you will get more professional advice than you ever could anywhere else. Embrace the power of Internet Forums!

I was going to go with Northwestern but ended up with Guardian...

Thanks!! I can see that you definitely think ahead to the future. If I go through with it I'll most like pick Guardian as well since I have my disability policy through them. Just curious- why did you pick Guardian over Northwestern?
 
Thanks!! I can see that you definitely think ahead to the future. If I go through with it I'll most like pick Guardian as well since I have my disability policy through them. Just curious- why did you pick Guardian over Northwestern?

the NW guy seemed a little pushy and couldn't answer some of my questions objectively as it seemed the Guardian guy could. there were also less fees associated with overfunding the Guardian I believe.
 
Oh my gosh, sorry I missed this for so long. Yes. I will. I love the badlands, have drug my children on those death marches several times, even through Medora. PM me. While whole life can be ok,, especially for those who are tempted later to "cash in" a less expensive policy, almost no one gets rid of these, which is good.. It is really just term averaged over your lifetime. So if a baby can buy term policy for $1 as baby and a $million at age 100, then the average of those premiums, with some investment for you and some fees for the company, that's where the whole life comes from. The MOST important thing, however, for LIFE insurance for doctors is to buy as much as you can BEFORE tax. As your agent how to do that and if he/she doesn't know, don't buy it. Its the tax haircut up front which is so terrible. Its not terrible that the company has to make money on the policy. They are not a charity--they are profit-motivated, and so are you. So let's quit this nonsense. You all know that some specialities pay better than others but I don't see oncologists giving refunds because they are grossly overpaid. You need what in the indusry is what is known as an advanced planner, of which, of course, I am one. We know how to make premiums deductible, legally. We know how to obtain insurance whose premiums are financed over your life time so that you pay them back from the policy after you are dead. We can create, using insurance, a "Roth" for you although you make too much money to qualify for a Roth, and some of us, a precious few, know how to creat deductions of more than a million dollars for doctors who can make that much they want to save, PER YEAR. And yes, less than that as well. Whole life is paying around 4% now, not too good, but pretty good given that CDs are paying nothing, but you are better off following a truly awful too long bear market, probably, using a universal life policy, but again, the most important aspect is that it should be tax-deductible currently when you salary is highest and you make more than you spend or shelter. You need an advanced planning, independent agent to get this for you. There are about two guys calling themselves insurance consultants to whom, they claim, you pay no commission, but they are not cheap either, and they only use one company with whom they have made a deal--don't know what that deal is????
 
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