Anesthetist Assistant

[dariadaria]

I'm consdiering applying to the Masters Program at Emory to be an Anesthesiology Assistant, but there is a huge fuss with comparison to CRNAs.

I thought their job duties AND salary were virtually identical?

Can anyone help me?

PLEASE- only AAs for sure, or people who know about this for a fact

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[seadizzle]

What does this have to do with premed?

 

[njbmd]

What does this have to do with premed?

Hi there,
This doesn't have much to do with pre-allopathic or pre-med so I am moving to the Clinicians[RN/NP/PA/OT] for better comments and more information for the original poster.

njbmd
Your friendly neighborhood supermod surgeon!

 

[deleted6669]

training and responsibility of AA's are equivalent to those of crna's. the only drawback to AA at this point is the geographical limitations to practice. AA's are currently only licensed in something like 15 states but that is increasing yearly. practices that use both AA's and crna 's use them interchangeably.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Hey

There are a couple of other differences im told

There were as many CRNAs graduated last year as AAs who exist. Its a very small group
CRNAs can practice independantly, if they so choose, but an AA cannot.

 

[deleted6669]

Hey

There are a couple of other differences im told

There were as many CRNAs graduated last year as AAs who exist. Its a very small group
CRNAs can practice independantly, if they so choose, but an AA cannot.

No bash to crna's but the independence issue is overstated. in a few states crna's can practice independently( 15 ish I think?) but for the nmost part with few exceptions they still work as part of physician run groups in order to have the benefits of being part of a larger group( group pays malpractice, cme, benefits, etc).
yes, there are independent crna groups but they are not as common as folks would lead us to believe....probably about as common as pa owned practices; they exist (pa hires md supervisor to do chart review only), but are not more than 1% of all pa's nationally.
AA training is equivalent to crna in every way and practices that use both they have the same job description.
JWK, a frequent contributor here, is an AA who is the chief anesthetist in a large group that hires both crna's and AA's. his input here would be helpful......

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Hey there

Actually the difference is in choices. While I know jwk and think hes a great guy with lots of knowledge, he can never goto a rural area and work alone or open his own surgi center. CRNAs never have to have an anesthesiologist present and there are no rules nationally that change that. CRNAs must typically have a "physician" present which is often the surgeon who could give a crap about what your doing unless bad things happen.

SO essentially its about choice. AAs can ONLY practice with anesthesiologist supervision and can never practice alone. Is this bad? Only if your looking for the avaliability of choice.

As for scope, it does seem that AAs do a similar job. Any edge a nurse would have as a CRNA is lost after the first few years with good experience as it is between NP/PAs.

If i became a CRNA i would work with jwk anytime.

No bash to crna's but the independence issue is overstated. in a few states crna's can practice independently( 15 ish I think?) but for the nmost part with few exceptions they still work as part of physician run groups in order to have the benefits of being part of a larger group( group pays malpractice, cme, benefits, etc).
yes, there are independent crna groups but they are not as common as folks would lead us to believe....probably about as common as pa owned practices; they exist (pa hires md supervisor to do chart review only), but are not more than 1% of all pa's nationally.
AA training is equivalent to crna in every way and practices that use both they have the same job description.
JWK, a frequent contributor here, is an AA who is the chief anesthetist in a large group that hires both crna's and AA's. his input here would be helpful......

 

[deleted6669]

Hey there

Actually the difference is in choices. While I know jwk and think hes a great guy with lots of knowledge, he can never goto a rural area and work alone or open his own surgi center. CRNAs never have to have an anesthesiologist present and there are no rules nationally that change that. CRNAs must typically have a "physician" present which is often the surgeon who could give a crap about what your doing unless bad things happen.

SO essentially its about choice. AAs can ONLY practice with anesthesiologist supervision and can never practice alone. Is this bad? Only if your looking for the avaliability of choice.

As for scope, it does seem that AAs do a similar job. Any edge a nurse would have as a CRNA is lost after the first few years with good experience as it is between NP/PAs.

If i became a CRNA i would work with jwk anytime.

agree and understand your summary-e

 

[RisingSun]

Can anyone give an indication on how difficult it is to gain admission to the four AA programs?

 

[BIS]

No bash to crna's but the independence issue is overstated. in a few states crna's can practice independently( 15 ish I think?) but for the nmost part with few exceptions they still work as part of physician run groups in order to have the benefits of being part of a larger group( group pays malpractice, cme, benefits, etc).
yes, there are independent crna groups but they are not as common as folks would lead us to believe....probably about as common as pa owned practices; they exist (pa hires md supervisor to do chart review only), but are not more than 1% of all pa's nationally.
AA training is equivalent to crna in every way and practices that use both they have the same job description.
JWK, a frequent contributor here, is an AA who is the chief anesthetist in a large group that hires both crna's and AA's. his input here would be helpful......

Actually CRNA's by law practice independently in all states. The deal is that CRNAs need an order to practice by an MD/DO/DDS. For instance a CRNA can work independently in a plastic surgeons office with any anesthesiologist even being present in that city. As long as the plastic sugeon give the order for the anesthetic the CRNA may choose the course, drug, route, preop screening ect ect. ON the other hand an AA can not work independently with the plastic surgeon unless specifically an anesthesiologist is in the OR suite with them and intricately involved in the case. Your 15 state remark in the opt out rule and pertains to Medicare part A reimbustments for hospitals. This rule states that an MD must claim oversite not supervision of the CRNA's practice. FOr instance there are CRNA only anesthesia groups in rural towns and the chief of surgery or chief of staff may over see the group. This oversight does not require that MD who may not be an anesthesiologist to be any where near the OR.

Yes in some states say GA for instance that use AA's is the Anesthesia Care Team Model(ACT) may have CRNA's and AA's functioning the same within that particular practice. But no the scopes of practices of an AA and CRNA are not the same. If a facility of group gives them the same functions then they will function the same and probrably make the same. However under statute the 2 professions have definite differences. You should do more research before you blab misinformation.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

The best thing to do if your interested in AA programs is to check out their association website:

http://www.anesthetist.org/content/view/26/40/

There are 4 schools currently. The reqs. are different for each.

Case Western: GPA : 2.75 MCAT: 20 Pre med classes

Emory: GPA: (no official rule) a low of 2.36 has been accepted MCAT OR GRE. MCAT 27 or GRE 55th percentile Pre med classes

Nova South Eastern U: GPA: 2.75 GRE OR MCAT (no min scores listed) No O chem or cell mol. bio

South Univ.: GPA: (no min given) GRE or MCAT (no specific scores) Not full pre med classes req.

So it varies quite widely. To my understanding (but jwk will know better) there were more CRNAs graduated last year than AAs in practice. There are many states where AAs cannot work as well which may be something to take into consideration depending on where you want to live.

Can anyone give an indication on how difficult it is to gain admission to the four AA programs?

 

[RisingSun]

MM,

Thanks for the reply. I was curious because a biochem major I know is enrolling in nursing school next year with the eventual goal of becoming a CRNA. I asked her why not AA school, being a biochem major she has had most/all of the prereqs. She said that it was so insanely hard to get into that only the best candidates have a shot. I also have heard of people turning down med school to become an AA, so I figured the competition must be fierce.

From the stats it looks to be pretty competitive. Wonder how many applicants each school gets for its few positions?

 

[geekgolightly]

MM,

Thanks for the reply. I was curious because a biochem major I know is enrolling in nursing school next year with the eventual goal of becoming a CRNA. I asked her why not AA school, being a biochem major she has had most/all of the prereqs. She said that it was so insanely hard to get into that only the best candidates have a shot. I also have heard of people turning down med school to become an AA, so I figured the competition must be fierce.

From the stats it looks to be pretty competitive. Wonder how many applicants each school gets for its few positions?

My husband is applying for next years AA program in all four (hopefully five!) programs, but is hoping for Emory. He spoke with the AA admissions counselor at Emory, who stated that there were 170+ applicants, 65 interviewed and 25 positions for 2006 matriculation.

Most are bio/premed majors, although almost every year there is at least one BSN and scattered psychology or humanities majors. Also a couple RRT's. Here is a link your friend might find interesting. I like looking at the stats.

 

[geekgolightly]

I have questions, too.

How strong of a chance does this applicant have?

GPA 3.81 in biochem and genetics track BSci
MCAT right now we are thinking 30-35 looking at his practice test scores
fair to middling recommendations
scattered coursework: he began his bachelors in 1991, not finishing until 2004 with years inbetween coursework
married with one child
interview probably won't be too impressive; he is not gregarious
volunteer work after MCAT will be done, hoping to rack in 100 hours by interview time
has very brainy outside interests (learned numerous academic computer programs on his own and has published a few things in scheme, lisp etc)

Anyone gone through the process of applying and getting accepted?

 

[dfk]

MM,

Thanks for the reply. I was curious because a biochem major I know is enrolling in nursing school next year with the eventual goal of becoming a CRNA. I asked her why not AA school, being a biochem major she has had most/all of the prereqs. She said that it was so insanely hard to get into that only the best candidates have a shot. I also have heard of people turning down med school to become an AA, so I figured the competition must be fierce.

From the stats it looks to be pretty competitive. Wonder how many applicants each school gets for its few positions?

hey rising.. i can only say that there is greater flexibility as a crna than an AA.. my two cents.. and you can keep the change if u want. !

 

[jwk]

Sorry i missed the fun - I haven't looked over in this forum for a while.

Most of what's here is correct. AA's are in 15-16 states plus DC. We are one of three federally approved anesthesia providers (MD and CRNA are the others), and are recognized by all payors.

AA's work in the anesthesia care team environment with an anesthesiologist. In groups that hire both AA's and CRNA's, you would never see a difference between the two.

CRNA's can work in all 50 states. In about 16 of those, there is no physician supervision requirement. In the rest, there has to be some supervision/collaboration between the physician/surgeon/dentist/podiatrist and the CRNA. Although CRNA's like to tout the fact that 65-70% of anesthetics are administered by CRNA's, it is also a fact that 65-70% of all anesthetics are administered in departments with anesthesiologists on staff, so the "independent" concept is often somewhat misleading at best.

The programs are extremely competitive as far as admissions. Perhaps 60-70 AA students graduated this year between the three existing programs, but that will increase each year as the programs increase in number and size. Emory accepted more than 50 in the incoming class and is moving to new facilities to accomodate them. South is just graduating their first class this summer, and Nova, the newest program, started with about 30 in their initial class. A 5th program at UMKC was announced this year and is in the program development stage, and is hoping to take their first class in the summer of 2007.

There is much politicizing between CRNA's and AA's, just as there is between PA's and NP's, and even some PA's and AA's. While Mike and other nurse anesthesia proponents that post here have our professional differences with me and other AA's, in day-to-day life, the individuals get along just fine - the professional organizations tend to raise the rhetoric a little more.

 

[jacketwrestler]

JWK (or anyone else)- do you know which states the AA organizations are pushing for currently? I'm currently in the process of applying to pharm school but would love to get into the AA profession as it fits more closely with my bachelor's, respiratory care. Any chance they're trying to lobby to move out west, California would be huge (but maybe too good to be true).

 

[jwk]

JWK (or anyone else)- do you know which states the AA organizations are pushing for currently? I'm currently in the process of applying to pharm school but would love to get into the AA profession as it fits more closely with my bachelor's, respiratory care. Any chance they're trying to lobby to move out west, California would be huge (but maybe too good to be true).

NC was a no-go this year. Too many issues within the legislature itself. We didn't get Florida till the 3rd try, so we'll keep on pluggin'.

California would be great. The problem is numbers. It doesn't help us a whole lot to get going in a new state if there aren't people ready to move there and work. As the two new programs ramp up their number of students, as well as Emory increasing it's numbers, things are looking better - we're certainly in high demand right now. Every graduating AA has their choice of job offers - absolutely 100% easy job placement.

One solution is more schools, and more are indeed in the works. Specifically, UMKC's program is being developed to bring more AA's into Missouri, which passed great AA legislation a couple of years ago, but to date has not seen many AA's move there.

 

[DNP student]

I thnk the decision between CRNA and AA is a matter of where you are in life. If you are still in your BS program, my recommendation would be CRNA because it is currenly more portable (all 50 states). However, if you have finished your BS, then try to get into AA school.

The biggest difference is that as a CRNA, if you get tired of call and the like, you can always find a nursing school and teach, or do a number of other things that requires an RN. In nursing, there are so many different directions you can go with your RN plus masters degree. With an AA, all you can do is anesthesia. If you decide you don't want to do that any longer, you are basically stuck.

As for practice differences, here in GA you can't tell a CRNA from an AA in the OR. They do the same things, take the same call, and make the same salary. The hospitals with which I'm familiar really don't differentiate.

 

[jacketwrestler]

DNP- I see what you're saying, but for myself I'm kind of in a different situation since I'm graduating with a B.S. in Respiratory Care which allows me to take pretty much all the R.T. tests right after I'm done with school so I can always come back to being an R.T. if AA gets too much for me. I truly believe that it's a more natural step for an RT to go into anesthesia than an RN becasue from what I've seen with several BSN students at my school, they dont go in depth into taking care of the airways.. while that's pretty much all R.T.'s do. It's very unfortunate that we dont get to apply for CRNA schools so AA is the next logical step. The only problem being that I've lived in California all my life so I dont know how well I can adjust to the south and leaving my family/friends.

JWK- I've heard that AA's can work for the military (VA hospitals). So if a AA really wanted to live in Cali, would they be able to come and work at a VA hospital? I assume the pay would be a bit less than market rate though?

Sorry for all the questions, but it's crunch time for me! Really gotta make a decision on what path to aim for in life.

 

[DNP student]

from what I've seen with several BSN students at my school, they dont go in depth into taking care of the airways..

CRNA's don't have just a BSN; they continue on for a masters and specialize in anesthesia. I guess my main point is that after 20-30 years you may get tired of call and long work hours. As an AA, I'm not sure you have any other options outside anesthesia; but as a nurse, you have lots of options.

 

[deleted6669]

CRNA's don't have just a BSN; they continue on for a masters and specialize in anesthesia. I guess my main point is that after 20-30 years you may get tired of call and long work hours. As an AA, I'm not sure you have any other options outside anesthesia; but as a nurse, you have lots of options.

his point was that r.t is a better prep for AA than a bsn is for crna because r.t. training focuses on airway and bsn does not. makes sense.

 

[DNP student]

his point was that r.t is a better prep for AA than a bsn is for crna because r.t. training focuses on airway and bsn does not. makes sense.

I understand that. But there is so much more to anesthesia than just the airway. What good is a patent airway if the patient is brain dead from malignant hyperthermia, hypotensive crisis, or any of the other complications of anesthesia that don't necessarily affect the airway initially?

 

[Chronic Student]

I think emedpa's point was that in comparing the undergrad degree to the grad degree (i.e., RN to CRNA and RT to AA) there is more direct applicability.

Consider how general RN training is and has to be in order to cover the whole range of human ailments and then applying those concepts to a specialty field like anesthesia.

Then consider an RT who has advanced knowledge of airways, pulmonology, ventilators, etc. and I think it's pretty clear that they would actually have quite a leg up as far as the types of things that anesthesia is concerned with.

I'm not dogging on the RN's and I'm certainly not saying that the whole patient should not be the main focus.

What I am saying is that the airway and all of its functions comprise a huge percentage of the day-to-day responsibilities of anesthesia (thinking of A first, then B and then C). BTW, I've only met one anesthesiologist over the years who has dealt with a case of malignant hyperthermia.

In addition, some RN's may participate in codes on a regular basis (CCU, ICU, etc), but it's not a daily occurence for most. RT's, however participate in codes on a fairly regular basis and I would argue that knowing how to intubate, set up a vent and get a blood gas, is much more directly applicable to anesthesias role.

BTW, you created a circular argument and most ACLS courses state that what good is the brain. etc if there is no oxygen to them.

-Mike

 

[jacketwrestler]

Chronic student- wondefully said

DNP- in no way was I trying put down your recommendation, I was just telling you that my background is a little different as an RT major than most who go for the AA programs, which I believe are biochem/bio/chem majors just like med programs.

 

[jwk]

Chronic student- wondefully said

DNP- in no way was I trying put down your recommendation, I was just telling you that my background is a little different as an RT major than most who go for the AA programs, which I believe are biochem/bio/chem majors just like med programs.

There have been LOTS of RT's go through the various AA programs. They usually do very well.

AA's options are as varied as a CRNA's might be. Both can teach if they want to, and that is not uncommon with those who have been in practice a good while. You won't find many leaving the profession and going back to something more "basic". And while I CRNA often has a master's degree, they can't just change and do an entirely different specialty. Their degree is anesthesia-specific. There's an advantage for PA's, who often switch specialties during their careers, although not into anesthesia unless they go through an AA program.

AA's can work for the VA and as civilian employees in military hospitals, although I'm not aware of any that are currently (there have been several in the past).

 

[rn29306]

You won't find many leaving the profession and going back to something more "basic".

JWK is right. Anesthesia providers are some of the happiest and career satisfied individuals you will ever meet. As far as the instance given of a CRNA quitting and going back to bedside nursing, that is essentially not going to happen. Show me this kind of person and I'll show you someone that seriously has issues....(such as being parital to fentanyl).
I'm not making fun of individuals that have narcotic issues, but there is something fundamentally wrong with a person that leaves a field such as CRNA with the autonomy and pay that the field commands and goes back to ICU or ER nursing. I can think of no instances where this has happened, nor have I heard of such.

 

[DNP student]

Chronic student- wondefully said

DNP- in no way was I trying put down your recommendation, I was just telling you that my background is a little different as an RT major than most who go for the AA programs, which I believe are biochem/bio/chem majors just like med programs.

This has been one of the few topics on this forum in which I did not feel that nursing was being put down. It is part of the medical field to disagree with someone's opinion. Opinions are neither right nor wrong; they are just opininos. I appreciate the respect shown by the posters on this topic.

 

[DNP student]

JWK is right. Anesthesia providers are some of the happiest and career satisfied individuals you will ever meet. As far as the instance given of a CRNA quitting and going back to bedside nursing, that is essentially not going to happen. Show me this kind of person and I'll show you someone that seriously has issues....(such as being parital to fentanyl).
I'm not making fun of individuals that have narcotic issues, but there is something fundamentally wrong with a person that leaves a field such as CRNA with the autonomy and pay that the field commands and goes back to ICU or ER nursing. I can think of no instances where this has happened, nor have I heard of such.

Actually, I know of some who have gotten tired of call and wanted to have more time with family. They have turned to legal nurse consulting, PRN bedside, staff development, and teaching nursing. My point was that as an RN, there are so many different avenues to take if a person decides they do not want to continue practicing as a CRNA. Also, there have been a very few who have returned to an NP school and with just 3-4 course, have been able to sit for the NP certification.

 

[rn29306]

Actually, I know of some who have gotten tired of call and wanted to have more time with family. They have turned to legal nurse consulting, PRN bedside, staff development, and teaching nursing. My point was that as an RN, there are so many different avenues to take if a person decides they do not want to continue practicing as a CRNA. Also, there have been a very few who have returned to an NP school and with just 3-4 course, have been able to sit for the NP certification.

You do realize there are non-call anesthesia positions don't you? While this is your instance and i do not know all the details, something just isn't right....Our anesthesia group has full time with call and full time without call. The without call shift is 4 10s at a reduced salary, no weekends.

Perhaps there are individuals that, for some reason or another, get into CRNA school, put up with the didactics and clinicals, pass board certification and work a while....then decide it is not for them. But my program would have weeded these individuals out pretty fast. There are certainly non-call positions available and I cannot imagine, for the life of me (nor my co-workers) leaving anesthesia to be back to an RN position, whatever the job title. You would think people would figure these things out during school...

 

[Dream Sleeper]

To say that you can't tell the difference between an AA & CRNA after some years of working is like saying physicians should not be required to attend medical school…let them go straight into a residency after college…after some years of "OJT", they'll be just as good as someone who went to medical school and then completed a residency.

CRNAs have a minimum of 7 years combined education and work experience (6-7 years of college and one year minimum of critical care experience) before they graduate from a Master's Program for Nurse Anesthesia. This means you have an RN with a baccalaureate who has worked a minimum of 1 yr in ICU/CCU, etc., before beginning anesthesia school. This can't compare to someone who was first a social worker, drug salesperson, or forest ranger and then enters an AA school (& yes, I've seen all three). Entering the AA program, a former RT has respiratory knowledge, but is deficient in disease process, pharmacology, and just plain bedside/ICCU patient care.

CRNAs bill MC/MC & private insurance companies directly. They are not tied to any anesthesiologist's license as with AA's. They practice in all 50 states (all 50 without anesthesiologist supervision and without physician supervison/direction in 14 states) and can be found in 34 foreign countries.

Sometimes people mix-up PA and AA terminology. PAs and AAs sit for different national certification examinations.

Most AAs are not educated, trained, or certified as Physician Assistants
(PAs). The Emory AA program, however, has an admissions track for
primary care PA-Cs with master’s degrees that will allow them to complete
the Emory AA program on an expedited schedule.

PAs have a generalist education and often move among specialties; AAs
don’t have a generalist education and are only trained to deliver anesthesia
care as part of the "anesthesia care team" under anesthesiologist direction.

PAs attend one of over 130 accredited PA educational programs. AAs attend
one of only a few AA programs.

In Georgia, AAs are classified under the Board of Medical Examiners’ rules as
one of “three general categories of job descriptions for certification of
Physician’s Assistants.” Georgia AAs don’t have to meet the educational or certification requirements that PAs must meet. Georgia AAs graduate from an AA program and pass the AA certification examination.

Yes, CRNAs and AAs do sometimes work in the same institutions, but you'll never see an AA in private practice, working in a rural hospital (some hospitals in rural areas are 100% staffed by CRNAs), or working solo in an office setting. It does take a longer time and a more intense education and experience to become a CRNA, but it seems to be well work the effort.

 

[jwk]

To say that you can't tell the difference between an AA & CRNA after some years of working is like saying physicians should not be required to attend medical school…let them go straight into a residency after college…after some years of "OJT", they'll be just as good as someone who went to medical school and then completed a residency.

CRNAs have a minimum of 7 years combined education and work experience (6-7 years of college and one year minimum of critical care experience) before they graduate from a Master's Program for Nurse Anesthesia. This means you have an RN with a baccalaureate who has worked a minimum of 1 yr in ICU/CCU, etc., before beginning anesthesia school. This can't compare to someone who was first a social worker, drug salesperson, or forest ranger and then enters an AA school (& yes, I've seen all three). Entering the AA program, a former RT has respiratory knowledge, but is deficient in disease process, pharmacology, and just plain bedside/ICCU patient care.

CRNAs bill MC/MC & private insurance companies directly. They are not tied to any anesthesiologist's license as with AA's. They practice in all 50 states (all 50 without anesthesiologist supervision and without physician supervison/direction in 14 states) and can be found in 34 foreign countries.

Sometimes people mix-up PA and AA terminology. PAs and AAs sit for different national certification examinations.

Most AAs are not educated, trained, or certified as Physician Assistants
(PAs). The Emory AA program, however, has an admissions track for
primary care PA-Cs with master's degrees that will allow them to complete
the Emory AA program on an expedited schedule.

PAs have a generalist education and often move among specialties; AAs
don't have a generalist education and are only trained to deliver anesthesia
care as part of the "anesthesia care team" under anesthesiologist direction.

PAs attend one of over 130 accredited PA educational programs. AAs attend
one of only a few AA programs.

In Georgia, AAs are classified under the Board of Medical Examiners' rules as
one of "three general categories of job descriptions for certification of
Physician's Assistants." Georgia AAs don't have to meet the educational or certification requirements that PAs must meet. Georgia AAs graduate from an AA program and pass the AA certification examination.

Yes, CRNAs and AAs do sometimes work in the same institutions, but you'll never see an AA in private practice, working in a rural hospital (some hospitals in rural areas are 100% staffed by CRNAs), or working solo in an office setting. It does take a longer time and a more intense education and experience to become a CRNA, but it seems to be well work the effort.

Gee, thanks for that wonderful, unbiased advertisement for the AANA. Looks like you did a little cut-and-paste from an AANA brochure or website to put this post together. Did you sign up for this website just to make this post in this particular thread?

You're welcome to come to my hospital any time and attempt to differentiate between AA and CRNA without looking at their nametags. Trust me, you'll never see the difference.

Although it's required now, most practicing CRNA's don't have a master's degree because they graduated long before it was required. In fact, the bachelor's degree requirement (NOT necessarily in nursing) and the critical care requirement (defined by each individual program) are relatively new concepts for CRNA's. Many thousands of CRNA's have no degree at all - just a nursing diploma and an anesthesia certificate. AA's on the other hand had master's degrees from day one.

Yes, AA's and PA's are two different professions. Your point is...?

Although AA's come from a variety of backgrounds, all of them have the full load of pre-med college coursework. Real chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics - not the survey courses many nursing programs have. Using your logic, physicians should go to nursing school first in order to be doctors. Here's a news flash - MOST of what you learned in nursing school has no bearing on anesthesia school. It's an entirely different profession, an entirely different set of knowledge, techniques, physiology, and pharmacology that you never even touched on in nursing school.

AA's work with anesthesiologists in anesthesia care team practices - oh wait - let's remember - so do 65% of CRNA's practicing in this country. Private practice? Think that one over again - totally false. Rural hospitals? If you mean without an anesthesiologist, you're correct. Ditto with working solo in an office. But these are 99% bread and butter cases. You don't do neurosurgery, hearts, transplants, livers, complex spine surgery, and countless other procedures in rural hospitals without anesthesiologists. Yeah I know, you get the occasional disaster case that comes your way. That's the rare exception, not the rule. And it's funny - CRNA's like to throw out that lots of counties "don't even have an anesthesiologist". Of course the catch is that many of those don't have a hospital either, but hey, let's not let facts get in the way.

More intense education? Laughable. Based on what? Both AA and NA programs are 2-3 years in length, depending on the program. The curricula is very similar for the most part. And except for practicing without an anesthesiologist, the scope of practice is the same. There's not a thing that CRNA's can do that AA's cannot.

 

[Dream Sleeper]

I'm wasting my valuable time to respond to such nonsense, but here goes.

No, I didn't sign up for this website to make a post. I was doing a web search for my next national meeting...I'm one of the speakers...and saw a thread and looked more. (You see, I either write one article for juried publication or speak nationally every year). Seeing that you have some 667 posts on this site, maybe you too could put your time to better use.

Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but the truth must truely hurt someone who is so threaten by 'nancy nurse'...the anesthesia providers in WWI, WWII, Korea, the first nurses in Vietnam, forward providers with Desert Storm (yep! you see I was there)..and we're still forward deployed. We were not recently 'invented' to be controlled.

Yes, I've probably been to your hospital. Your were probably the one I relieved that was doing a nephrectomy without an esophageal stethoscope (guess it's your super-human hearing of breath sounds and heart beat that makes you so good) or could you be the one that failed to recognize your intubation of the right main-stem bronchus (always check BLBS when giving relief...just a little pointer for you...but then I'm sure you must know everything).

I do not trust you, because you certainly can see the difference between the anesthesia techniques. To know that you were created to serve an anesthesiologist must really get under your skin. From your writings, you appear that you would not take direction easily...could this be the reason that your words seem like poison?

Yes, CRNA education has come a long way since the late 1800's when we first began giving anesthesia. No, I wasn't in the first formal class of 1909, but you certainly need to check your facts. Many trained when degrees were not offered (the old blue-haired ladies), but they have gone to complete advanced education...some with Doctorates in Nursing (like myself) with many, many more soon to follow.

The critical care requirement was in effect in some 35 years ago when I began training (but then you profess to know more about accreditation of CRNA schools and entrance requirements than a former professor of nursing). Nursing education and nurse anesthesia education has evolved to higher education beginning with baccalaureate degrees in nurse anesthesia in the early 1980's...why?...because nursing education was a three year hospital based program. But then, acutally working with sick people...the child dying of kidney failure...holding the elderly as you try to comfort them...delivering babies because the doc was held up by the freight train...trying to calm the fears of the mentally ill) doing all of this years before learning anything about anesthesia apparently is foreign to you. You need this basis (nursing school and working in nursing and the intensive care requirement provides this basis, just as a physician needs medical school)...without this basis you would be a 'cook-book' provider of anesthesia, lacking in the ability to work or make decisions alone, unable to draw upon a knowledge/experience basis...could the shoe fit? Do your feet hurt?

Survey courses???? Where is your head??? Why are you so defensive??? Seems you are jealous of an anesthesia provider who has a more solid background and EXPERIENCE than you. Wasn't it a shorter road to become an AA? No nursing school, no getting your hands dirty, no year(s) in ICU/CCU. You need to be satisfied with what your are...that second "A" in AA stands for ASSISTANT!!!

When I give anesthesia, I am practicing NURSING. Nurse anesthesia is not a different profession, it's just another direction of nursing that a nurse can enter...we have options, an AA's options are limited.

Yes, France, Sweden, Austria, Germany...all will be glad to know that they don't have hospitals (just a few of the countries that have CRNAs...hopefully even you might be able to recognize these countries, but there are 30 more). Before you go off half-cocked and hot-headed....please speak from knowledge...you seem to be trying to speak with authority, but you are really coming off as a sore head and a sore looser.

Nothing you can do that I can't do??? Now let's see, I've just finished the week working in MY OWN BUSINESS...CASHING my insurance checks, all without an AA or anesthesiologist insight. Cases??? I have done hearts, transplants, etc.,..but not this week (a 50+ hour week). I am looking for relief for a week in November, but then, you are not qualified to step-in and take my place!

And my point was that PAs and AAs are not alike, it was information that some providers and the general public confuse (some AAs try and pass themselves off as PAs and even CRNAs, but I will keep the high road and leave it at that).

The whole point of my thread was for the person looking into nursing or AA education. It was not to banter with someone so defensive and insecure.

I am putting this matter to bed...hit me with whatever, as I'm sure you will do as you seem to have plenty of time to sit at the computer. However, I have a life that includes not only anesthesia (did you happen to call or make rounds on every patient that you did today???..I did...I also walked the elderly lady through her husband's first tube feeding with his fresh PEG...could an AA do that???...anesthesia is more than turning knobs, it's the entire patient and the family that nursing teaches you to care for) but family, grandchildren, garden club, volunteering at the senior center and safe house all seem more important than responding to your anxieties.... So good night and happy trails.

 

[deleted6669]

part of jwk's job is supervising(administratively) the crna's at his facility as he is head anesthetist there so if you went to work at his facility he would be your boss.....and there are crna's there who report to him already, you wouldn't be the 1st.....

 

[jwk]

I'm wasting my valuable time to respond to such nonsense, but here goes.

No, I didn't sign up for this website to make a post. I was doing a web search for my next national meeting...I'm one of the speakers...and saw a thread and looked more. (You see, I either write one article for juried publication or speak nationally every year). Seeing that you have some 667 posts on this site, maybe you too could put your time to better use.

Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but the truth must truely hurt someone who is so threaten by 'nancy nurse'...the anesthesia providers in WWI, WWII, Korea, the first nurses in Vietnam, forward providers with Desert Storm (yep! you see I was there)..and we're still forward deployed. We were not recently 'invented' to be controlled.

Yes, I've probably been to your hospital. Your were probably the one I relieved that was doing a nephrectomy without an esophageal stethoscope (guess it's your super-human hearing of breath sounds and heart beat that makes you so good) or could you be the one that failed to recognize your intubation of the right main-stem bronchus (always check BLBS when giving relief...just a little pointer for you...but then I'm sure you must know everything).

I do not trust you, because you certainly can see the difference between the anesthesia techniques. To know that you were created to serve an anesthesiologist must really get under your skin. From your writings, you appear that you would not take direction easily...could this be the reason that your words seem like poison?

Yes, CRNA education has come a long way since the late 1800's when we first began giving anesthesia. No, I wasn't in the first formal class of 1909, but you certainly need to check your facts. Many trained when degrees were not offered (the old blue-haired ladies), but they have gone to complete advanced education...some with Doctorates in Nursing (like myself) with many, many more soon to follow.

The critical care requirement was in effect in some 35 years ago when I began training (but then you profess to know more about accreditation of CRNA schools and entrance requirements than a former professor of nursing). Nursing education and nurse anesthesia education has evolved to higher education beginning with baccalaureate degrees in nurse anesthesia in the early 1980's...why?...because nursing education was a three year hospital based program. But then, acutally working with sick people...the child dying of kidney failure...holding the elderly as you try to comfort them...delivering babies because the doc was held up by the freight train...trying to calm the fears of the mentally ill) doing all of this years before learning anything about anesthesia apparently is foreign to you. You need this basis (nursing school and working in nursing and the intensive care requirement provides this basis, just as a physician needs medical school)...without this basis you would be a 'cook-book' provider of anesthesia, lacking in the ability to work or make decisions alone, unable to draw upon a knowledge/experience basis...could the shoe fit? Do your feet hurt?

Survey courses???? Where is your head??? Why are you so defensive??? Seems you are jealous of an anesthesia provider who has a more solid background and EXPERIENCE than you. Wasn't it a shorter road to become an AA? No nursing school, no getting your hands dirty, no year(s) in ICU/CCU. You need to be satisfied with what your are...that second "A" in AA stands for ASSISTANT!!!

When I give anesthesia, I am practicing NURSING. Nurse anesthesia is not a different profession, it's just another direction of nursing that a nurse can enter...we have options, an AA's options are limited.

Yes, France, Sweden, Austria, Germany...all will be glad to know that they don't have hospitals (just a few of the countries that have CRNAs...hopefully even you might be able to recognize these countries, but there are 30 more). Before you go off half-cocked and hot-headed....please speak from knowledge...you seem to be trying to speak with authority, but you are really coming off as a sore head and a sore looser.

Nothing you can do that I can't do??? Now let's see, I've just finished the week working in MY OWN BUSINESS...CASHING my insurance checks, all without an AA or anesthesiologist insight. Cases??? I have done hearts, transplants, etc.,..but not this week (a 50+ hour week). I am looking for relief for a week in November, but then, you are not qualified to step-in and take my place!

And my point was that PAs and AAs are not alike, it was information that some providers and the general public confuse (some AAs try and pass themselves off as PAs and even CRNAs, but I will keep the high road and leave it at that).

The whole point of my thread was for the person looking into nursing or AA education. It was not to banter with someone so defensive and insecure.

I am putting this matter to bed...hit me with whatever, as I'm sure you will do as you seem to have plenty of time to sit at the computer. However, I have a life that includes not only anesthesia (did you happen to call or make rounds on every patient that you did today???..I did...I also walked the elderly lady through her husband's first tube feeding with his fresh PEG...could an AA do that???...anesthesia is more than turning knobs, it's the entire patient and the family that nursing teaches you to care for) but family, grandchildren, garden club, volunteering at the senior center and safe house all seem more important than responding to your anxieties.... So good night and happy trails.

There are roughly 35-40,000 CRNA's, give or take. There are probably 600-800 practicing AA's. One has to wonder - since AA's are currently outnumbered by CRNA's about 50:1 - what is it about AA's that has you and your organizations scared to death and spending 100's of thousands of dollars and countless hours fighting against us?

One guess - it begins, and ends, with $$$$$$$$$$$. Simple as that.

I work with CRNA's every day. You obviously have never worked with or even met an AA - you're simply toeing the party line dictated by the AANA, incapable as you are of independent thought, despite your stated "doctorate in nursing", and despite your claim of being an author and speaker, although what that has to do with anything I don't know. (the Dr. Nurse thread was earlier in this forum BTW). And since you don't know any AA's, I'll assume your comment about AA's passing themselves off as CRNA's to be fabrication as well (or propaganda regurgitation).

You don't trust me? You don't even know me. You come up with this fabrication that you've probably been to my hospital and witnessed substandard care and that one "can certainly see the difference in techniques". What difference? The difference between your practice and your fantasies (or call it lie if that suits you better) about AA's? We were not "recently invented to be controlled". We've been around since 1971. Yes, CRNA's have been around much longer - but it's like I tell my wife - "don't worry honey, I'll always be older than you". With your awesome research capabilities, do a search for "Steinhaus - Gravenstein - Volpitto" and learn some history. It's all in print - no need to fabricate or guess.

I'll repeat - the critical care and bachelor's degree requirements are relatively new requirements for CRNA's. They may have been required for individual programs, but as a national requirement, it's a newcomer. Many of the CRNA's I know in Georgia are a perfect example - three year nursing diploma from a hospital school of nursing, and a two year nurse anesthesia certificate, often from the same hospital, and rarely with a year of critical care experience in between. In fact, most went directly from nursing school into their anesthesia program. I know plenty of CRNA's that have never practiced a day of "nursing" in their lives, except for nurse anesthesia. When did most CRNA programs change over to a master's degree? Late 80's and early 90's. Could it be because AA's were getting master's degrees and most CRNA's weren't? Hmmmm. Coincidence perhaps? Hardly.

And yes, nursing education in general has progressed, but there are still associate degree nursing progams. And although you're a Doctor Nurse (or is it nurse doctor) the AANA, your own organization, appears to be leading the charge against the DNP concept. Little wonder - it's hard to be a cohesive profession when you have practitioners with no degree, bachelor's only (of course not necessarily in nursing), master's (not necessarily in anesthesia or even nursing or healthcare) or doctorate's. The AANA even has to step in every time a state wants to mandate a master's degree for advance practice nurses, since so many CRNA's don't have a degree that they would be forced to move out of state unless they were grandfathered into the new law.

As far as the survey course comment - I used to assume that Chemistry meant just that - Chemistry. But after reading a few of the CRNA threads in allnurses.com, it became apparent that some CRNA programs will indeed accept "survey courses" in some sciences. Just an observation from a nursing BB - I didn't write it.

Congratulations - you've done hearts and transplants. These were of course done in institutions with anesthesiologists providing supervision, medical direction, or whatever you'd like to call it. These types of cases, any many others, are simply not done in facilities without anesthesiologists. And again, 65% of anesthetics are done in ACT practices. Simple fact. Another fact - the newly anointed president of the AANA is employed by a heavily medically-directed ACT practice.

Can you work independent of an anesthesiologist? Yes. Ask ANY patient if they, when given a choice, would prefer their anesthetic be administered by an anesthetist acting alone(whether CRNA or AA) without an anesthesiologist being around, or an anesthetist that has an anesthesiologist immediately available when needed. Most patients can easily see that two heads and four hands just might be better than a single practitioner flying solo without backup.

Yes, there are many countries that have nurse anesthetists. There are several that don't - I assume you've heard of Canada and Great Britain.

I also wasn't aware that nurses had a corner on hand-holding and volunteering at senior centers.

No need to respond - I know you're busy at the garden club.

 

[OzDDS]

Can you work independent of an anesthesiologist? Yes. Ask ANY patient if they, when given a choice, would prefer their anesthetic be administered by an anesthetist acting alone(whether CRNA or AA) without an anesthesiologist being around, or an anesthetist that has an anesthesiologist immediately available when needed. Most patients can easily see that two heads and four hands just might be better than a single practitioner flying solo without backup.

Yes, there are many countries that have nurse anesthetists. There are several that don't - I assume you've heard of Canada and Great Britain.

And don't forget Australia, and New Zealand.

 

[Chronic Student]

That post ranks right up there with some of the most condescending things I've ever read on this website and that's some sort of accomplishement.

Congratulations and thanks for nurturing and fostering understanding. I'm sure it has made the situation much better.

-Mike

I'm wasting my valuable time to respond to such nonsense, but here goes.

No, I didn't sign up for this website to make a post. I was doing a web search for my next national meeting...I'm one of the speakers...and saw a thread and looked more. (You see, I either write one article for juried publication or speak nationally every year). Seeing that you have some 667 posts on this site, maybe you too could put your time to better use.

Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but the truth must truely hurt someone who is so threaten by 'nancy nurse'...the anesthesia providers in WWI, WWII, Korea, the first nurses in Vietnam, forward providers with Desert Storm (yep! you see I was there)..and we're still forward deployed. We were not recently 'invented' to be controlled.

Yes, I've probably been to your hospital. Your were probably the one I relieved that was doing a nephrectomy without an esophageal stethoscope (guess it's your super-human hearing of breath sounds and heart beat that makes you so good) or could you be the one that failed to recognize your intubation of the right main-stem bronchus (always check BLBS when giving relief...just a little pointer for you...but then I'm sure you must know everything).

I do not trust you, because you certainly can see the difference between the anesthesia techniques. To know that you were created to serve an anesthesiologist must really get under your skin. From your writings, you appear that you would not take direction easily...could this be the reason that your words seem like poison?

Yes, CRNA education has come a long way since the late 1800's when we first began giving anesthesia. No, I wasn't in the first formal class of 1909, but you certainly need to check your facts. Many trained when degrees were not offered (the old blue-haired ladies), but they have gone to complete advanced education...some with Doctorates in Nursing (like myself) with many, many more soon to follow.

The critical care requirement was in effect in some 35 years ago when I began training (but then you profess to know more about accreditation of CRNA schools and entrance requirements than a former professor of nursing). Nursing education and nurse anesthesia education has evolved to higher education beginning with baccalaureate degrees in nurse anesthesia in the early 1980's...why?...because nursing education was a three year hospital based program. But then, acutally working with sick people...the child dying of kidney failure...holding the elderly as you try to comfort them...delivering babies because the doc was held up by the freight train...trying to calm the fears of the mentally ill) doing all of this years before learning anything about anesthesia apparently is foreign to you. You need this basis (nursing school and working in nursing and the intensive care requirement provides this basis, just as a physician needs medical school)...without this basis you would be a 'cook-book' provider of anesthesia, lacking in the ability to work or make decisions alone, unable to draw upon a knowledge/experience basis...could the shoe fit? Do your feet hurt?

Survey courses???? Where is your head??? Why are you so defensive??? Seems you are jealous of an anesthesia provider who has a more solid background and EXPERIENCE than you. Wasn't it a shorter road to become an AA? No nursing school, no getting your hands dirty, no year(s) in ICU/CCU. You need to be satisfied with what your are...that second "A" in AA stands for ASSISTANT!!!

When I give anesthesia, I am practicing NURSING. Nurse anesthesia is not a different profession, it's just another direction of nursing that a nurse can enter...we have options, an AA's options are limited.

Yes, France, Sweden, Austria, Germany...all will be glad to know that they don't have hospitals (just a few of the countries that have CRNAs...hopefully even you might be able to recognize these countries, but there are 30 more). Before you go off half-cocked and hot-headed....please speak from knowledge...you seem to be trying to speak with authority, but you are really coming off as a sore head and a sore looser.

Nothing you can do that I can't do??? Now let's see, I've just finished the week working in MY OWN BUSINESS...CASHING my insurance checks, all without an AA or anesthesiologist insight. Cases??? I have done hearts, transplants, etc.,..but not this week (a 50+ hour week). I am looking for relief for a week in November, but then, you are not qualified to step-in and take my place!

And my point was that PAs and AAs are not alike, it was information that some providers and the general public confuse (some AAs try and pass themselves off as PAs and even CRNAs, but I will keep the high road and leave it at that).

The whole point of my thread was for the person looking into nursing or AA education. It was not to banter with someone so defensive and insecure.

I am putting this matter to bed...hit me with whatever, as I'm sure you will do as you seem to have plenty of time to sit at the computer. However, I have a life that includes not only anesthesia (did you happen to call or make rounds on every patient that you did today???..I did...I also walked the elderly lady through her husband's first tube feeding with his fresh PEG...could an AA do that???...anesthesia is more than turning knobs, it's the entire patient and the family that nursing teaches you to care for) but family, grandchildren, garden club, volunteering at the senior center and safe house all seem more important than responding to your anxieties.... So good night and happy trails.

 

[Beau Geste]

Let's try to keep things civil in here. We're all above the pettiness that the pre-med forums tend to display, correct?

 

[jwk]

Let's try to keep things civil in here. We're all above the pettiness that the pre-med forums tend to display, correct?

Gee mom, looks like there hadn't been a post in over a week - looks like we're doing OK without a referee.

 

[golfmontpoker]

My micro professor told me today about the AA programs, and I have been doing some research, looks really interesting! Think a 3.5gpa and a 1050 on the GRE be competitive? Any advice would be great!

 

[jwk]

My micro professor told me today about the AA programs, and I have been doing some research, looks really interesting! Think a 3.5gpa and a 1050 on the GRE be competitive? Any advice would be great!

PM me

 

[Beau Geste]

Gee mom, looks like there hadn't been a post in over a week - looks like we're doing OK without a referee.

Please check your PM box.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Right now I'm in an accelerated BSN program and I am comparing the differences between what CRNA's and AA's learn about pain management in school, as well as the potential of using the degree to focus on pain management [I'm an acupuncturist]. If anyone has any information on this, please let me know.


BTW, I looked at the UMKC website for information about their new AA program, but I couldn't find anything. Does anyone have some information about it?

 

[jwk]

Right now I'm in an accelerated BSN program and I am comparing the differences between what CRNA's and AA's learn about pain management in school, as well as the potential of using the degree to focus on pain management [I'm an acupuncturist]. If anyone has any information on this, please let me know.


BTW, I looked at the UMKC website for information about their new AA program, but I couldn't find anything. Does anyone have some information about it?

Pain management by non-physicians is an extremely controversial subject right now. There are CRNA's practicing "pain management" under the guise of "we're only doing procedures that we've been requested to do by an orthopedist, neurologist, or other physician". Several states and/or state medical boards have ruled that "pain management" by CRNA's is beyond their scope of practice and constitutes the practice of medicine. The debate rages on.

UMKC's program is being developed as we speak. They have indicated they would like to accept students next summer, but they have to hire a director and take care of a few logistical issues first.

 

[Baylee]

To say that you can't tell the difference between an AA & CRNA after some years of working is like saying physicians should not be required to attend medical school…let them go straight into a residency after college…after some years of "OJT", they'll be just as good as someone who went to medical school and then completed a residency.

CRNAs have a minimum of 7 years combined education and work experience (6-7 years of college and one year minimum of critical care experience) before they graduate from a Master's Program for Nurse Anesthesia. This means you have an RN with a baccalaureate who has worked a minimum of 1 yr in ICU/CCU, etc., before beginning anesthesia school. This can't compare to someone who was first a social worker, drug salesperson, or forest ranger and then enters an AA school (& yes, I've seen all three). Entering the AA program, a former RT has respiratory knowledge, but is deficient in disease process, pharmacology, and just plain bedside/ICCU patient care.

CRNAs bill MC/MC & private insurance companies directly. They are not tied to any anesthesiologist's license as with AA's. They practice in all 50 states (all 50 without anesthesiologist supervision and without physician supervison/direction in 14 states) and can be found in 34 foreign countries.

Sometimes people mix-up PA and AA terminology. PAs and AAs sit for different national certification examinations.

Most AAs are not educated, trained, or certified as Physician Assistants
(PAs). The Emory AA program, however, has an admissions track for
primary care PA-Cs with master’s degrees that will allow them to complete
the Emory AA program on an expedited schedule.

PAs have a generalist education and often move among specialties; AAs
don’t have a generalist education and are only trained to deliver anesthesia
care as part of the "anesthesia care team" under anesthesiologist direction.

PAs attend one of over 130 accredited PA educational programs. AAs attend
one of only a few AA programs.

In Georgia, AAs are classified under the Board of Medical Examiners’ rules as
one of “three general categories of job descriptions for certification of
Physician’s Assistants.” Georgia AAs don’t have to meet the educational or certification requirements that PAs must meet. Georgia AAs graduate from an AA program and pass the AA certification examination.

Yes, CRNAs and AAs do sometimes work in the same institutions, but you'll never see an AA in private practice, working in a rural hospital (some hospitals in rural areas are 100% staffed by CRNAs), or working solo in an office setting. It does take a longer time and a more intense education and experience to become a CRNA, but it seems to be well work the effort.

I have a good friend who's an anesthesiologist and he actually convinced his son to go to nursing school and then on to a nurse anesthetist program. His kid could have easily gone the medical route, because the little guy is a genius. At first, I was appalled that he would encourage his son to go into NURSING of all things, but after he explained that CRNA's are pulling down 150K per year and have less responsibility, less school debt, etc, it made perfect sense. He specifically mentioned that he wouldn't want his son going the AA route, because the nursing/CRNA lobbies are so strong and the AA organizations will never be able to compete.

 

[Baylee]

Gee, thanks for that wonderful, unbiased advertisement for the AANA. Looks like you did a little cut-and-paste from an AANA brochure or website to put this post together. Did you sign up for this website just to make this post in this particular thread?

You're welcome to come to my hospital any time and attempt to differentiate between AA and CRNA without looking at their nametags. Trust me, you'll never see the difference.

Although it's required now, most practicing CRNA's don't have a master's degree because they graduated long before it was required. In fact, the bachelor's degree requirement (NOT necessarily in nursing) and the critical care requirement (defined by each individual program) are relatively new concepts for CRNA's. Many thousands of CRNA's have no degree at all - just a nursing diploma and an anesthesia certificate. AA's on the other hand had master's degrees from day one.

Yes, AA's and PA's are two different professions. Your point is...?

Although AA's come from a variety of backgrounds, all of them have the full load of pre-med college coursework. Real chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics - not the survey courses many nursing programs have. Using your logic, physicians should go to nursing school first in order to be doctors. Here's a news flash - MOST of what you learned in nursing school has no bearing on anesthesia school. It's an entirely different profession, an entirely different set of knowledge, techniques, physiology, and pharmacology that you never even touched on in nursing school.

AA's work with anesthesiologists in anesthesia care team practices - oh wait - let's remember - so do 65% of CRNA's practicing in this country. Private practice? Think that one over again - totally false. Rural hospitals? If you mean without an anesthesiologist, you're correct. Ditto with working solo in an office. But these are 99% bread and butter cases. You don't do neurosurgery, hearts, transplants, livers, complex spine surgery, and countless other procedures in rural hospitals without anesthesiologists. Yeah I know, you get the occasional disaster case that comes your way. That's the rare exception, not the rule. And it's funny - CRNA's like to throw out that lots of counties "don't even have an anesthesiologist". Of course the catch is that many of those don't have a hospital either, but hey, let's not let facts get in the way.

More intense education? Laughable. Based on what? Both AA and NA programs are 2-3 years in length, depending on the program. The curricula is very similar for the most part. And except for practicing without an anesthesiologist, the scope of practice is the same. There's not a thing that CRNA's can do that AA's cannot.

I'm not one to defend the nursing profession, but the CRNA's are always going to win this war strictly because they need to have ICU experience before getting into a program. Same thing with the NP versus PA professions, prior patient care experience is always going to win out. As far as all those science courses? I did very well in organic chemistry, but I can recall very little. It's all about experience, experience, experience and it's not going to matter how well you did in biochemistry, organic, etc.

 

[deleted6669]

I'm not one to defend the nursing profession, but the CRNA's are always going to win this war strictly because they need to have ICU experience before getting into a program. Same thing with the NP versus PA professions, prior patient care experience is always going to win out. As far as all those science courses? I did very well in organic chemistry, but I can recall very little. It's all about experience, experience, experience and it's not going to matter how well you did in biochemistry, organic, etc.

folks need experience for pa school too.....around 30% of pa's or so are former nurses, many of the others are paramedics and resp. therapists....also rememmber the direct entry np programs? bs in anything + 3 yrs= np?
these folks get their rn after yr 1 and go directly into np, they never work as nurses outside of their training. there is a local program here that is like this and the combined clinical time for rn+ np is 760 hrs. that's 1/3 of the clinical time in any pa program.....
the best way to compare clinicians is to look at 2 similar nurses. 1 becomes a pa, the other becomes an np...guess who the better provider is.....

 

[Baylee]

folks need experience for pa school too.....around 30% of pa's or so are former nurses, many of the others are paramedics and resp. therapists....also rememmber the direct entry np programs? bs in anything + 3 yrs= np?
these folks get their rn after yr 1 and go directly into np, they never work as nurses outside of their training. there is a local program here that is like this and the combined clinical time for rn+ np is 760 hrs. that's 1/3 of the clinical time in any pa program.....
the best way to compare clinicians is to look at 2 similar nurses. 1 becomes a pa, the other becomes an np...guess who the better provider is.....

You would think that the "advanced nurse practitioner" would have prior nursing experience. Are there any nurse anesthetist programs where this is allowed? If so, UNBELIEVABLE!

 

[Baylee]

Pain management by non-physicians is an extremely controversial subject right now. There are CRNA's practicing "pain management" under the guise of "we're only doing procedures that we've been requested to do by an orthopedist, neurologist, or other physician".

HOLY S***! I'M DROPPING OUT OF MED SCHOOL AND SIGNING UP FOR NURSING SCHOOL! PLEASE don't tell me that these nurses are allowed to do ESI's! If so, there goes the profession.

 

[rn29306]

Not that I am aware of. From my understanging of even these "direct entry programs", you may be accepted into the COLLEGE or SCHOOL of nursing, but a requirement for applicants is the one year acute care experience prior to the start of the anesthesia component. That is how I understand these programs to be. I attended a traditional program with none of this direct entry fluff and the majority of our class had 3-7 years experience, with only 3 accepted with one year.