American med school vs Ben Gurion University in israel

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borntobecool

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Hey guys,
I got interviews for an american school and Ben Gurion school in Israel, which focuses on international health and in which i am very interesting. However, i have been hearing that its tough to get residency when you study abroad- does that apply to ben gurion that has a collaboration with Columbia university in the States?

Based on what do you get your residency?
thanks!

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borntobecool said:
Hey guys,
I got interviews for an american school and Ben Gurion school in Israel, which focuses on international health and in which i am very interesting. However, i have been hearing that its tough to get residency when you study abroad- does that apply to ben gurion that has a collaboration with Columbia university in the States?

Based on what do you get your residency?
thanks!

Though certain foreign schools may enjoy excellent reputations in the US, I believe that going abroad puts one at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to applying for US residencies. The system (generally speaking) prefers LCME graduates over everyone else. In addition, the ability to easily do electives in the field of one's choice in the US makes a great difference, when it comes to letters of recommendation and experience.

Take a look at the number of IMGs (all med students/grads from abroad are IMGs) in the following specialties.

ENT 1.9%
Ortho 2.0%
Derm 3.6%
EM 4.4%
Urology 5.1%
Plastics 5.8%
Ophth. 6.9%
Rad-Onc 8.0%
Neurosurg 9.1%
Transition 9.2%
Rad-Diag 9.8%
Ob/Gyn 21.0%
Surg 21.5%
Anesth. 26.7%
Peds 29.5%
FP 33.5%
PM&R 34.9%
Neuro 38.0%
Psych 42.0%
IM 48.9%

Source: the AMA. http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcindx/0,,TR,00.html

The average number of IMGs across all residencies is around 25%. Also, not only do IMGs (on the average) achieve less competitive residencies, the quality of those residencies is often far lower than those attained by US grads.

My advice: Do your damndest to get into a US allopathic school. You will have greater opportunities than by going abroad.

Miklos
 
What Miklos says is true about most International Med Schools, but is not true regarding the Israeli Medical schools. Students at BGU-CU Medical School get into top-notch residency programs (as do students at Sackler School of Medicine in Tel Aviv). In fact, BGU has a 100% rate at getting students into residency programs. Some examples of Residency programs the 2004 class was accepted into includes pediatrics at Albert Einstein Medical Center, Internal medicine at Beth Israel Medical Ctr, Georgetown Univ. Med. Ctr.and many more. BGU and Sackler are both very competitive programs and will prepare you well. Think about it a second, it's Israel! You can't go wrong studying medicine in Israel. Good luck.
 
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organman said:
What Miklos says is true about most International Med Schools, but is not true regarding the Israeli Medical schools.

I agree - it's inaccurate to group all IMG schools together.

I'm finishing my 4th year in the BGU program and have had very positive responses from residency programs in the US where I've interviewed for FP. Remember, that our program allows students to do their 4th year electives at Columbia U, or elsewhere in the US, so we get ample opportunity to make US connections, get solid (and prestigious) US rec's and all that. Our graduates seem to have no problem getting pretty impressive spots.

That said, I would still caution you if you are interested in any of the super-competitive specialties like derm, optho and plastics. Our school emphasis is very compelling to most programs because international medicine is a huge issue in most care situations - and we have lived it and studied it. But in the highly-specialized fields, that emphasis becomes less important and we often look just like the typical IMG to those programs (read: they won't even pick up your application). But I'm talking about only a small number of the extremely competitive specialties. Everything else, even at big academic universities, is open to us. Often our background seems to help.
 
organman said:
Think about it a second, it's Israel! You can't go wrong studying medicine in Israel.

Ummm... there are many reasons that I won't get into here why not everyone would agree with this statement. And, this has nothing to do with the quality of the education you'd get there either, which is clearly top notch.

-Skip
 
I will be interviewing with Ben Gurion in early April. I'm extremely interested in this program, but everyone that I've talked to is cautioning me about it. My mother is an RN, and every doctor that she talks to says do not go there, do not get a degree from outside the United States. I take that advice with a grain of salt since I feel the BGU program is different, and it seems they have a decent residency match list.

But I'm still hesitant about it. Would this be a quality career move? If I don't go to BGU, I'm planning on going to a DO school, so for many reasons going to Israel would be taking many risks: I don't know if it would be worth it.

My interest in international medicine is why I applied. On the other hand, I am considering getting a MPH if I go American DO. If I combine this with some international experiences, I feel like this could compete with BGU on my own personal ranking list in terms of medical education above the regular medical degree (which is what I'm aiming for).

Any thoughts from current students? I'd like to get some more information before my interview.
 
OMG don't go outside the US!!!!! GO TO A US ALLOPATHIC school for God's sake. I am finishing up at SGU (carribean) and I had a damn hard time during match/scramble.

If you want to do FP or IM or even Peds/OBGYN then that's fine, but for specialties you will be closing a lot of doors. Do yourself a favor, go to a US school...please.
 
But isn't BGU different?

Just because the majority of schools outside the US are not looked upon favorably, does not mean that all of them are.

I am interested in public policy, which is why the international medicine education is so appealing.
 
Chronoch said:
But isn't BGU different?

Just because the majority of schools outside the US are not looked upon favorably, does not mean that all of them are.

I am interested in public policy, which is why the international medicine education is so appealing.


It is true that some foreign medical schools are less stigmatized than others. However, the fact is that for most people graduating from a US medical school will be seen as more favorable, however crappy that school is, than any foreign medical school. While Ben Gurion is reputed to be a good school, do not be confused by its affiliation with Columbia. Many foreign medical schools have affiliations with US medical schools, even Columbia (so BG is not alone in its "affiliation" with this particular school), but these are little help in obtaining a US residency, IMHO.

The second issue I would address to the OP is the interest in international health. Frankly, medical school knowledge gives you the basics; your real training comes in residency and fellowship. Therefore, little of what you learn in medical school, even about international health, will make a difference in your future career. Just as the hundreds of US medical students in surgical residencies who trained at a family medicine oriented medical school; it didn't make a difference. The bottom line is that you may change your mind about your eventual field of interest and even if you don't, all you need is a decent medical education to get into a residency and THEN a fellowship in international health. ANY medical school can do this for you; having an international health focus during medical school probably doesn't make a bit of difference when it comes to getting into the field, IMHO.

If you have the chance to go to a US medical school, that's what you should do.
 
Thank you for your comments.

I'm not very familiar with international fellowships. Are those normally taken before or after residency? Do you know any sites where I can get some quick, no-nonsense information about fellowship and internship experiences? I haven't been able to find anything or anyone to give me a general overview of that area of training.
 
I'm a 4th year student in the Ben Gurion program. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have: [email protected].

As always, Dr. Cox's response is cogent and balanced and worthy of consideration. In general, I'd say I don't fully agree with it, however. For one, she is correct that there are a number of schools with some form of affiliation to prestigious universities (Kigezi U rents space at Cambridge), but our affiliation with Columbia truly does open doors. Specifically, we get first pick of Columbia clerkships after Columbia students themselves. This gives us the opportunity to pick up very strong and valuable recommendations. The collaboration does aid in residency interviews, etc as well. Be adivised, we are NOT Columbia students and our admission standards are slightly less stringent (surprisingly close, tho), but the collaboration is genuine and helpful.

I can agree with Dr. Cox's characterization about how international health cirriculum isn't all that important to med school. But the opportunity to live outside the US - more specifically, if you are white, to live as a distinct minority - is priceless in my opinion. And by living, I don't mean a tour through Europe for a month, or a semester abroad. I mean living. Learning the language. Being afraid in an uncertain and strange environment. Feeling lost and alone and forgotten. These are all the things most patients feel in the hospital. You can relate to patients intellectually, or you can relate to them emotionally. Simply put, after an experience like this one, you are more inclined toward the latter. Relating to a patient emotionally, in my opinion, unequivocally makes a better doctor.

I despised myself when my entire life perspective was constrained to my expreience as an American, in America. Not that I despise all Americans who haven't lived overseas. I just know that in my life, nothing has had a more profound impact on me...except my marriage and kids. Furthermore, no training is more demanding and limiting than medical school/residency. Few people can work in a semester abroad during undergrad. Even less find the energy to set up a overseas clerkship during their 4th year of medical school. During residency, you MAY get a month of elective time to go abroad if you're lucky. But in essence, you're GROUNDED for 11 or more years of your life. So, if you're going to live overseas anytime in your youth, now is the time to do it. You'll be in mid-life when you have the opportunity again.

All that being said, the residency thing is always there. You just won't get an ENT or optho residency coming from our program. At least, no one has yet...although basically nobody from here has even tried, even though plenty of our students were in the 99th on the MLE's and all that. In general, though, our students get their top choice of residency. Few scramble. None have not found a spot during the scramble. It should be remembered that students come here not entirely because they couldn't get in elsewhere. UWashington, Georgetown, Einstein, UColorado, SUNY and lots of others have been turned down by students for our program.

For the right kind of person, this is really a special program. For others, this just isn't where they should go. But apps are going waay up as word gets out that our residency spots are impressive and as our students make a strong impression on programs in the US. In the end, all I can say is that I'd do it again without hesitation.

Geoff
 
I understand that the application process to medical school is very competitive in the US and many highly qualified and compassionate students get turned away each year frequently due to shear volume - I just completed the process this past Winter/Spring. Although Sackler and Technion are modeled after standard US programs (and have been noted for accepting students with less competitive MCAT scores), the Ben Gurion University program is particularly unique for its focus on global health. BGU is NOT a school that one applies to on second thought because the chances of getting into a US school are narrow. BGU is a program that creates physicians who are in tune with global health needs, demonstrate the greatest altruistic qualities, and understand that beyond the science of medicine lies an intricate network of social, economic, and psychologic constructs that contribute to illnesses in destitute populations. BGU students understand the value of family & community health and have applied to the school because their interests in medicine lie beyond just wanting to "help people." Yes, the program accepts a maximum of 50 students, but the school will not hesitate to come significantly short of that maximum if the applicant pool does not demonstrate a sincere interest in global health disparities. You will likely never find a graduate of BGU working as a dermatologist, rheumatologist, or radiologist because they feel the most needed and most rewarding practice begins at the primarly level.

As you may have inferred, I am going to be a 1st year student at Ben Gurion University School for International Health this Fall. Please don't take what I have said personally. I just feel that it's important to make future applicants are aware that BGU is not the backdoor to a medical degree. The school was founded by Columbia & BGU because they had a keen vision that in a world that is becoming more globalized we need more physicians that understand the dynamics and delicate cultral issues of global medicine.
 
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