African-Americans and the Match

[woolfda]

I've tried to do a search on the subject but have not come up with much information. Does anyone have a resource that gives data regarding how blacks fare in the match? There seems to be lots of data regarding med school admissions with data regarding applicants and matriculants, but very little regarding residency matching success. I'll be matriculating into med school this year and was reading Iserson's book in which he states his opinion that "they[underrepresented minorities] do consistently worse in obtaining residency positions compared to other students." Anybody care to discuss?

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[jsnuka]

I do not know if there are any publications that break things down in terms of race. Given the dearth of minorities in medical school, I think the data would not say too much.

The AAMC has 2 publications that may be helpful to you as you embark on your journey though. Loook for them on the AAMC website.

"Roadmap to Residency: From Application to the Match and Beyond"

and

"Charting Outcomes in the Match: Characteristics of Applicants Who MAtched to Their Prefered Specialty in the 2005 NRMP Main Residency Match"

Also check the appendices of each of these for other resources.

 

[mdnsw]

It's simple really. Underqualified minorities gain admission to medical school due to racial preferences/discrimination, then many of these underqualified students do predictably poorly in medical school, which leads to poor results in the match. The preferential treatment given to minorities is likely less significant in the match than it was in medical school admissions. Residency programs are very small and therefore suffer more by accepting lesser applicants than a medical school. Residency programs have more invested in each resident, so they are probably less willing to lower their standards than medical schools are. Residency programs will still give preferential treatment to minorities, just less than you are used to. However if you as a minority perform well in medical school, you can expect to do very well in the match. If you are one of the few minorities who was as well qualified as your peers in medical school admissions, you can expect to do perfectly well in medical school and the match.

You won't have much luck finding anything to read about this because this sort of information tends to be buried in the hopes of continuing the discriminatory admissions policies in college, medical school, etc. The only thing you can find is the high rate of minorities going into primary care. This is presented as a pseudo-justification for admissions discrimination/preference but most likely results from the competitiveness of the applicants rather than a choice to pursue a primary care/non-competitive specialty in my opinion. Of course I ave only intuition and common sense to back this up since gathering the supporting information is actively avoided.

Try hard and you'll do fine if you belong there in the first place. Good luck.

 

[QofQuimica]

I've tried to do a search on the subject but have not come up with much information. Does anyone have a resource that gives data regarding how blacks fare in the match? There seems to be lots of data regarding med school admissions with data regarding applicants and matriculants, but very little regarding residency matching success. I'll be matriculating into med school this year and was reading Iserson's book in which he states his opinion that "they[underrepresented minorities] do consistently worse in obtaining residency positions compared to other students." Anybody care to discuss?

One thing that I don't think gets enough emphasis is the importance of finding a good mentor who can help you navigate the system. This is essential for students of all races and backgrounds. When you get to med school, ask some of the upperclassmen for suggestions about faculty who are willing to serve as mentors for students with career goals like yours. Your mentor doesn't have to be of the same sex or race as you are. S/he should make you aware of what you need to do to be competitive for that field and help you meet the "right" people at your institution. to you with school.

 

[njbmd]

I've tried to do a search on the subject but have not come up with much information. Does anyone have a resource that gives data regarding how blacks fare in the match? There seems to be lots of data regarding med school admissions with data regarding applicants and matriculants, but very little regarding residency matching success. I'll be matriculating into med school this year and was reading Iserson's book in which he states his opinion that "they[underrepresented minorities] do consistently worse in obtaining residency positions compared to other students." Anybody care to discuss?

People fare in the The Match according to how well they fared in medical school. Every program director is looking for the best people that they can find. The top performers from any school do quite well.

The most important thing with matching is to make sure that you are competitive for the specialty that you wish to enter. If you are in the bottom half of your class, you are likely not going to match into one of the competitive specialties such as dermatology, orthopedic surgery or neurosurgery. There is simply too much competition from students who have been high achievers.

If you choose a less competitive specialty, and you have good academics (GPA/USMLE Step I scores), you can look at the top residency locations for your specialty. Again, you can rule out Family Medicine at Harvard if your academics are not excellent but you can match into a good program in one of the primary care specialties such as Internal Medicine, Family Medicine, Psychiatry and Pediatrics. There are simply loads of excellent programs out there to make application to.

Even the folks in the bottom half of the class and at the very bottom, provided you have attended medical school here in the US, have a good shot at a strong program in most specialties except the most competitive. There are plenty of residency slots out there and many choices to make. Most people get into trouble when they choose a specialty that is too competitive or they apply at the most competitive residency locations and don't get enough interview invitations.

Race and ethnicity are even less of a factor with residency programs than performance in medical school. If you managed to do well, you can determine your fate regardless of color. Since the match is done by computer algorithm with your choice entered and the programs that interviewed you entered, race is pretty much a neutral issue.

There are few, if any, residency programs that are going to outright refuse to interview a black medical school graduate with good academics.

 

[RNtoMD2011]

It's simple really. Underqualified minorities gain admission to medical school due to racial preferences/discrimination, then many of these underqualified students do predictably poorly in medical school, which leads to poor results in the match. The preferential treatment given to minorities is likely less significant in the match than it was in medical school admissions. Residency programs are very small and therefore suffer more by accepting lesser applicants than a medical school. Residency programs have more invested in each resident, so they are probably less willing to lower their standards than medical schools are. Residency programs will still give preferential treatment to minorities, just less than you are used to. However if you as a minority perform well in medical school, you can expect to do very well in the match. If you are one of the few minorities who was as well qualified as your peers in medical school admissions, you can expect to do perfectly well in medical school and the match.

You won't have much luck finding anything to read about this because this sort of information tends to be buried in the hopes of continuing the discriminatory admissions policies in college, medical school, etc. The only thing you can find is the high rate of minorities going into primary care. This is presented as a pseudo-justification for admissions discrimination/preference but most likely results from the competitiveness of the applicants rather than a choice to pursue a primary care/non-competitive specialty in my opinion. Of course I ave only intuition and common sense to back this up since gathering the supporting information is actively avoided.

Try hard and you'll do fine if you belong there in the first place. Good luck.

Your reply is incredibly racist. URMs doing more primary care is more a result of culture than anything (not becuase they are not qualified for "more competitive" specialties). There are just as many non URMs entering primary care. Truth of the matter is that in America non URMs have decades of educational and financial advantage, which has resulted in a system in which this group of people are advantaged.

Even if you don't admit it, your are transparently racist against URMs for having the gall to compete in field that has not been historically accepting of the non white, non main stream. Trends happen to show that non URMs tend not to want to work with URM populations. So how dare URMs attempt to become doctors to help their people in a country where the main stream could care less about them? People like you would rather that URM not recieve healthcare at all and just die off, since they are of no further use (legally anyway) to your kind.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Your reply is incredibly racist. URMs doing more primary care is more a result of culture than anything (not becuase they are not qualified for "more competitive" specialties). There are just as many non URMs entering primary care. Truth of the matter is that in America non URMs have decades of educational and financial advantage, which has resulted in a system in which this group of people are advantaged.

Even if you don't admit it, your are transparently racist against URMs for having the gall to compete in field that has not been historically accepting of the non white, non main stream. Trends happen to show that non URMs tend not to want to work with URM populations. So how dare URMs attempt to become doctors to help their people in a country where the main stream could care less about them? People like you would rather that URM not recieve healthcare at all and just die off, since they are of no further use (legally anyway) to your kind.

While his post does have some editorializing, it offers a very plausible (and what I suspect to be true) explanation. Minorities, on average, get into medical school with substantially lower academic qualifications due to AA. While they do graduate at roughly the same rate (everyone graduates medical school), they will not be expected to have the same USMLE scores. If residencies do not give as much of a racial boost as medical school admissions, the minorities will fare worse.

You may not like his anti-AA stance but I think your last line was uncalled for.

 

[RNtoMD2011]

While his post does have some editorializing, it offers a very plausible (and what I suspect to be true) explanation. Minorities, on average, get into medical school with substantially lower academic qualifications due to AA. While they do graduate at roughly the same rate (everyone graduates medical school), they will not be expected to have the same USMLE scores. If residencies do not give as much of a racial boost as medical school admissions, the minorities will fare worse.

You may not like his anti-AA stance but I think your last line was uncalled for.

1. I actually don't have a problem with his anti-AA stance. What I do have a problem with are his racial generalizations. He assumes that minorities are mostly underqualified compared to their classmates. He assumes that that minorities go into primary care because they are not qualified to do other specialties (just as many non- mnorites go into primary care, proportionaltly). He assumes that qualifications to be in medical school are only summed up by the numbers and if ones numbers are lower they are some how less qualified.

2. Truth of the matter is that higher numbers (MCAT and GPA) does not equal better doctor. They do suggest academic preparation. Yet it has been well documented that poor people and minorities are more likely to not receive the same level of academic preparation as people with money and non minorites. It is not racist or discriminatory to take that into account when determining how to admit people to medical school.

3. This country has a long social and econmic history that has contributed to the problems in minority communities. Maybe if the country would start investing in our children so they can be adequately prepared to compete we would not need AA.

4. I made the last comment in my previos post in response to the fact that many people who are anti-AA seem to be ignorant of this country's history in creation of AA policies. They appear to be ignorant of the lagacies of slavery. Or they don't feel that the country has an obligation to address the problems because all things are "equal" now. Aren't they? (I know that there are people who say yes. They are either ignorant or just blind. Or maybe since the problem is not in their community they just don't care.)

 

[snoopy brown]

Once again we learn that people who don't agree with AA are pro-slavery and secretly hope blacks die.

 

[RNtoMD2011]

Once again we learn that people who don't agree with AA are pro-slavery and secretly hope blacks die.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic, but I don't agree with that at all. I just think that SOME lack an understanding of (ignorance) of what Blacks in this country went through and the resulting legacy of that history. I believe that there is a disconnection and desensitatization to the issues.

 

[snoopy brown]

I'm just saying that in your mind there's no way someone could oppose AA and also not be a racist, right?

 

[Instatewaiter]

Your reply is incredibly racist. URMs doing more primary care is more a result of culture than anything (not becuase they are not qualified for "more competitive" specialties). There are just as many non URMs entering primary care. Truth of the matter is that in America non URMs have decades of educational and financial advantage, which has resulted in a system in which this group of people are advantaged.

Even if you don't admit it, your are transparently racist against URMs for having the gall to compete in field that has not been historically accepting of the non white, non main stream. Trends happen to show that non URMs tend not to want to work with URM populations. So how dare URMs attempt to become doctors to help their people in a country where the main stream could care less about them? People like you would rather that URM not recieve healthcare at all and just die off, since they are of no further use (legally anyway) to your kind.

While his post was a bit caustic, really it stands to reason that his argument is sound. Race aside, you would expect anyone who got in w/ a much lower GPA and MCAT score than the rest of his class to fare worse. There are plenty of white kids who got in w/ less than spectacular numbers. This holds true for them too.

1. I actually don't have a problem with his anti-AA stance. What I do have a problem with are his racial generalizations. He assumes that minorities are mostly underqualified compared to their classmates. He assumes that that minorities go into primary care because they are not qualified to do other specialties (just as many non- mnorites go into primary care, proportionaltly). He assumes that qualifications to be in medical school are only summed up by the numbers and if ones numbers are lower they are some how less qualified.

2. Truth of the matter is that higher numbers (MCAT and GPA) does not equal better doctor. They do suggest academic preparation. Yet it has been well documented that poor people and minorities are more likely to not receive the same level of academic preparation as people with money and non minorites. It is not racist or discriminatory to take that into account when determining how to admit people to medical school.

3. This country has a long social and econmic history that has contributed to the problems in minority communities. Maybe if the country would start investing in our children so they can be adequately prepared to compete we would not need AA.

4. I made the last comment in my previos post in response to the fact that many people who are anti-AA seem to be ignorant of this country's history in creation of AA policies. They appear to be ignorant of the lagacies of slavery. Or they don't feel that the country has an obligation to address the problems because all things are "equal" now. Aren't they? (I know that there are people who say yes. They are either ignorant or just blind. Or maybe since the problem is not in their community they just don't care.)

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic, but I don't agree with that at all. I just think that SOME lack an understanding of (ignorance) of what Blacks in this country went through and the resulting legacy of that history. I believe that there is a disconnection and desensitatization to the issues.

2. while higher MCAT and GPA does not equal better doctor, it most definitely equals better student. Directors are not going to make concessions when it comes to getting a residency. Just because you are black, white, hispanic, middle eastern you dont get preferential treatment when gettign a residency. So there is no boost like there was in college or medical school admissions.

4. Why does it always come back to slavery? It's just so ridiculous especially since it gets used as a trump card for the most asinine things.

 

[RNtoMD2011]

Its not a trump card it is a reality. And for the record. I have problems with AA when white people assume it is the only reason I made. Does my skin color mean I am not as smart as they. This conversation is over for me, I am not trying to persuade you to change your minds, because you may never understand.

As I stated, you are disconnected from something you don't understand because you have not been directly impacted. It does not make you a racist, it makes you disconnected.

 

[snoopy brown]

I have problems with AA when white people assume it is the only reason I made. Does my skin color mean I am not as smart as they.

Um, I am not trying to offend, but what other conclusion are they to draw? If AA gives you an edge and you wouldn't be there without it, then you can't turn around and say "I would be here regardless of AA or not but just in case I oppose AA being eliminated. But you still have to think of me as a person who got in without AA." It just gets ridiculous very fast.

 

[mdnsw]

1. I actually don't have a problem with his anti-AA stance. What I do have a problem with are his racial generalizations. He assumes that minorities are mostly underqualified compared to their classmates. He assumes that that minorities go into primary care because they are not qualified to do other specialties (just as many non- mnorites go into primary care, proportionaltly). He assumes that qualifications to be in medical school are only summed up by the numbers and if ones numbers are lower they are some how less qualified.

2. Truth of the matter is that higher numbers (MCAT and GPA) does not equal better doctor. They do suggest academic preparation. Yet it has been well documented that poor people and minorities are more likely to not receive the same level of academic preparation as people with money and non minorites. It is not racist or discriminatory to take that into account when determining how to admit people to medical school.

3. This country has a long social and econmic history that has contributed to the problems in minority communities. Maybe if the country would start investing in our children so they can be adequately prepared to compete we would not need AA.

4. I made the last comment in my previos post in response to the fact that many people who are anti-AA seem to be ignorant of this country's history in creation of AA policies. They appear to be ignorant of the lagacies of slavery. Or they don't feel that the country has an obligation to address the problems because all things are "equal" now. Aren't they? (I know that there are people who say yes. They are either ignorant or just blind. Or maybe since the problem is not in their community they just don't care.)

1. I don't think that minorities are underqualified. It is an indesputible fact. Not all minorities are underqualified but the entire purpose of AA is to accept underqualified minorities. If underqualified applicants weren't accepted under AA then it wouldn't exist.

2. Higher grades and MCATs may not make a better doctor, but they are the best means available to choose between applicants. Your 'argument' is often brought up but is beyond weak. Grades and test scores are the primary factors used in admissions of URM's under AA too, the only difference is that you aren't required to compete against the entire applicant pool. You compete amongst yourselves and the URMs with the best grades and score as accepted.
The other side of your argument, poverty, is also weak because poor white people are discriminated against in favor of weathy minorities.

3. I somewhat agree with number three. Primary education is often poor and disproportionately affects minorities, but AA isn't given to nonURMs from bad schools, it is totally race based.
You also say 'in this country' which brings up two points: 1) african and black education was behind long before the US came into being, it's not as if blacks were educated pre-slavery but held back afterward, and 2) URMs (many black and especially hispanic) weren't even discriminated against in the US. A black or hispanic immigrant will get a racist preference in medical school admissions. What the heck!

4. I'm well aware of this country's history and of the reality that not everything is equal. You make things equal by having one standard and accepting those who best meet that standard regardless of race, not by discriminating against some to the benefit of others.
What you choose to ignore is that it IS history. You were never slaves and we were never slave owners. There is no genetic transmission of education. It is certainly an advantage to have educated parents, but I think it is even more important to have parents that prioritize your education. A motivated population will become educated in a single generation. Just look at recent immigrants. Immigrant parents (of any race including black immigrants) are more likely to have educated children than American-born blacks. It's not about race and its not about priviledge. It's probably about culture.

http://www.diverseeducation.com/artman/publish/article_6954.shtml

 

[MSTPbound]

4. Why does it always come back to slavery? It's just so ridiculous especially since it gets used as a trump card for the most asinine things.

If only slavery could so easily be forgotten...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12353776

We still have a LONG way to go, we human beings.

By the way, just a little bit.

 

[RNtoMD2011]

1. I don't think that minorities are underqualified. It is an indesputible fact. Not all minorities are underqualified but the entire purpose of AA is to accept underqualified minorities. If underqualified applicants weren't accepted under AA then it wouldn't exist.

2. Higher grades and MCATs may not make a better doctor, but they are the best means available to choose between applicants. Your 'argument' is often brought up but is beyond weak. Grades and test scores are the primary factors used in admissions of URM's under AA too, the only difference is that you aren't required to compete against the entire applicant pool. You compete amongst yourselves and the URMs with the best grades and score as accepted.
The other side of your argument, poverty, is also weak because poor white people are discriminated against in favor of weathy minorities.

3. I somewhat agree with number three. Primary education is often poor and disproportionately affects minorities, but AA isn't given to nonURMs from bad schools, it is totally race based.
You also say 'in this country' which brings up two points: 1) african and black education was behind long before the US came into being, it's not as if blacks were educated pre-slavery but held back afterward, and 2) URMs (many black and especially hispanic) weren't even discriminated against in the US. A black or hispanic immigrant will get a racist preference in medical school admissions. What the heck!

4. I'm well aware of this country's history and of the reality that not everything is equal. You make things equal by having one standard and accepting those who best meet that standard regardless of race, not by discriminating against some to the benefit of others.
What you choose to ignore is that it IS history. You were never slaves and we were never slave owners. There is no genetic transmission of education. It is certainly an advantage to have educated parents, but I think it is even more important to have parents that prioritize your education. A motivated population will become educated in a single generation. Just look at recent immigrants. Immigrant parents (of any race including black immigrants) are more likely to have educated children than American-born blacks. It's not about race and its not about priviledge.

http://www.diverseeducation.com/artman/publish/article_6954.shtml

1. Again, better qualified does not mean better numbers. And it is not our best measure of applicants if it were all those 42/4.0 would always get in. The reason they don't is because somewhere along the line someone suspects that inspite of the numbers they may not be a good addition to the field of medicine.

2. Pre-slavery for this country Blacks were not behind educationally. It was during slavery that education was with held from Blacks and After slavery education was difficult to obtain because of the social stigma of educating Blacks. You obviously don't know your history, making it diffiuclt to discuss this point with you becuase you don't know the facts.

3. It is true that there are foreign born who reap the benefits fo AA. They should. Many of their home countries in Africa were affected by the history of non Africans who went there and took over. If they have to come here for a better life because of the legacy that has been left in Africa they should be able to.

4. As far as poor white people recieving preference, they do if they mark the disadvangted box and explain the disadvantage.

YOU SHOULD REALLY TAKE AN AMERICAN HISTORY CLASS. (A REAL ONE, NOT SOMETHING THAT IS SO WATERED DOWN THAT YOU DON'T LEARN THE FACTS OF WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IN THIS COUNTRY.)

 

[RNtoMD2011]

mdnsw,

I just read through your other post and you are a troll, a bigot, a racist and you go around starting flame wars. Get a life!

 

[RandomBlackManX]

mdnsw,

I just read through your other post and you are a troll, a bigot, a racist and you go around starting flame wars. Get a life!

This is all a moot point. By and large, no one understands how it feels to be a URM nor can they comprehend the life long subtle/overt racist undertones present in society experienced over a life time (with a few exceptions).

Irregardless of AA, I think there is no denying that there is a signficant lack of minority physicians in every facet of medicine. If I am so blessed, I will hopefully enter academic medicine, and do my best to encourage students at all levels of the medical process (premed, med etc), while also providing a good role model. Though I may bite my tongue at some of the more acerbic remarks now, I will actively try to alleviate some of the problems discussed in this thread in the future. Until then, I'll assume the role of the random black man in the back of the class who everyone assumes is underqualified, silently transforming my aspirations into a reality.

 

[snoopy brown]

1. Again, better qualified does not mean better numbers.

If that is so, then why should non-URMs have to have higher scores? For example, would you not scream if you found out that URMs had higher scores (MCAT/GPA) than non-URMs? And if we then told you "scores have nothing to do with qualifications" I doubt you'd buy it. You'd just be throwing around the "racist" card again.

 

[mdnsw]

This is all a moot point. By and large, no one understands how it feels to be a URM nor can they comprehend the life long subtle/overt racist undertones present in society experienced over a life time (with a few exceptions).

Irregardless of AA, I think there is no denying that there is a signficant lack of minority physicians in every facet of medicine. If I am so blessed, I will hopefully enter academic medicine, and do my best to encourage students at all levels of the medical process (premed, med etc), while also providing a good role model. Though I may bite my tongue at some of the more acerbic remarks now, I will actively try to alleviate some of the problems discussed in this thread in the future. Until then, I'll assume the role of the random black man in the back of the class who everyone assumes is underqualified, silently transforming my aspirations into a reality.

Name calling. Strong arguments there Random. There's nothing racist about any of my posts. I argue against the possibility that race is the defining characteristic in the varying educational success between groups. I think it's cultural. I think that improving primary education is something we should all do as a nation to help disadvantaged people of all races. The gifted should be nurtured to maximize their achievement, not held back by poor educational opportunities, standards, and expectations. However, racism is wrong even if AA's supporters are well-intentioned. I don't think that AA improves race relations or the perception of minorities. I think it undermines the status of URMs because it is questionable whether you success is earned of not. It's not a question of being good enough to get through school or to be a good doctor. The problem is that for every underqualified student who is admitted, there is a more qualified student who has to choose a different career. Try placing yourself in the shoes of a white kid who is poorer than you but did better in school yet didn't get accepted to med school because of race.

PS: It's irrespective OR regardless NOT irregardless.

 

[RNtoMD2011]

This is all a moot point. By and large, no one understands how it feels to be a URM nor can they comprehend the life long subtle/overt racist undertones present in society experienced over a life time (with a few exceptions).

Irregardless of AA, I think there is no denying that there is a signficant lack of minority physicians in every facet of medicine. If I am so blessed, I will hopefully enter academic medicine, and do my best to encourage students at all levels of the medical process (premed, med etc), while also providing a good role model. Though I may bite my tongue at some of the more acerbic remarks now, I will actively try to alleviate some of the problems discussed in this thread in the future. Until then, I'll assume the role of the random black man in the back of the class who everyone assumes is underqualified, silently transforming my aspirations into a reality.

That is how it is done! Do what ya do!

 

[RandomBlackManX]

Name calling. Strong arguments there Random. There's nothing racist about any of my posts. I argue against the possibility that race is the defining characteristic in the varying educational success between groups. I think it's cultural. I think that improving primary education is something we should all do as a nation to help disadvantaged people of all races. The gifted should be nurtured to maximize their achievement, not held back by poor educational opportunities, standards, and expectations. However, racism is wrong even if AA's supporters are well-intentioned. I don't think that AA improves race relations or the perception of minorities. I think it undermines the status of URMs because it is questionable whether you success is earned of not. It's not a question of being good enough to get through school or to be a good doctor. The problem is that for every underqualified student who is admitted, there is a more qualified student who has to choose a different career. Try placing yourself in the shoes of a white kid who is poorer than you but did better in school yet didn't get acepted because of race.

PS: It's irrespective OR regardless NOT irregardless.

Irregardless is definitely a word, albeit less commonly used. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[snoopy brown]

I think it's laughable that you act like you're silently fighting the power and your supposedly-racist classmates by going to class. That would be like if you were at a job with people and got paid more than them for the same work based on race and you said, "well, even though everyone hates me I shall continue my silent struggle against the powers that be, always courageous."

 

[RandomBlackManX]

I never said anything of the kind. I don't know how you construed that from my post. A good portion of my classmates are well to do people like myself. If anything, I am silently fighting the assumption that minorities are underqualified. You should modify your analogy accordingly. I never said I was being heroic.

 

[snoopy brown]

That's just it, though. You say that people are sitting around making racial assumptions about you, but you're going to quietly defy them. There's no defiance or "fight" there. You're just taking advantage of a policy that some people agree with and some people disagree with.

 

[RandomBlackManX]

What would you have me do? I respectfully disagree. How about we agree to disagree and leave it at that? Neither one of us is going to change the others opinion. Like I stated earlier, it's a moot point.

 

[snoopy brown]

What if I didn't agree to disagree? I never understood that line. Anyways, you're right that we're not going to change each other's minds. So, yeah, let's just leave it at that.

 

[CBG23]

Has anyone ever took the time to realize that the "lower" numbers (GPA + MCAT) of minorities accepted into med school is due to a self selecting population? That is, they could be preferentially applying to lower tier schools whereas their non-URM counterparts have a more balanced selection of upper tier and lower tier schools...

 

[RNtoMD2011]

Hasanyone ever took the time to realize that the "lower" numbers (GPA + MCAT) of minorities accepted into med school is due to a self selectng population? That is, they could be preferentially applying to lower tier schools whereas their non-URM counterparts have a more balanced selection of upper tier and lower tier schools...

I don't know the actual numbers but I agree with you that this is probably a major factor. For myself (Avg MCAt and High GPA), I didn't apply to any of the top tiers because I did not feel that I would be competitive and I did not have money to waste. The schools I applied to are considered to be of lower tier, yet that did not bother me becuase after doing my research I found them to all be excellent schools and I got into almost every place that I interviewed. I know for a fact that it wasn't because of my race or my URM status. I had a well rounded application and I kicked a$$ at my interviews.

 

[snoopy brown]

I know for a fact that it wasn't because of my race or my URM status. I had a well rounded application and I kicked a$$ at my interviews.

Unless you were on the adcoms those statements are entirely meaningless. All you did was get accepted and then say, "I'm quite sure I didn't need AA policies to get in but they happen to be in place but I'm sure they didn't affect anything in my case but even if they did so what."

 

[RNtoMD2011]

Unless you were on the adcoms those statements are entirely meaningless. All you did was get accepted and then say, "I'm quite sure I didn't need AA policies to get in but they happen to be in place but I'm sure they didn't affect anything in my case but even if they did so what."

You love to look for an argument or a debate, do you not?

My point was to say that at SOME schools the overall application is looked at.

To clarify, I feel this way because there were candidates of my race with far better stats than me who did not get into the same schools. And there were non-URM who got in with far worse. I am not going to pout about that. I don't know what else they brought to the table and nor do I care. I am glad that schools don't just look at numbers. And all I could do was bring all that I had to the process. It was still a crap shoot, and good for me that I was fortunate enough to make it with my average numbers. I know that there are people with merely average numbers who don't get in, is that somehow my fault?

No. I was convincing enough on paper and in person so I made it. Each has to make there own case and spin all factors to their benefit.

 

[jsnuka]

Folx let's bring this back to the original topic. If you would like to engage in a discussion about the merits or demerits of affirmative action policy in the graduate/professional school admissions process, then you can continue that discussion in the "Sociopolitical Forum of The Doctors' Lounge."

Here is the original topic and poignant responses to the original question.

I've tried to do a search on the subject but have not come up with much information. Does anyone have a resource that gives data regarding how blacks fare in the match? There seems to be lots of data regarding med school admissions with data regarding applicants and matriculants, but very little regarding residency matching success. I'll be matriculating into med school this year and was reading Iserson's book in which he states his opinion that "they[underrepresented minorities] do consistently worse in obtaining residency positions compared to other students." Anybody care to discuss?

I do not know if there are any publications that break things down in terms of race.

The AAMC has 2 publications that may be helpful to you as you embark on your journey though. Loook for them on the AAMC website.

"Roadmap to Residency: From Application to the Match and Beyond"

and

"Charting Outcomes in the Match: Characteristics of Applicants Who Matched to Their Prefered Specialty in the 2005 NRMP Main Residency Match"

Also check the appendices of each of these for other resources.

One thing that I don't think gets enough emphasis is the importance of finding a good mentor who can help you navigate the system. This is essential for students of all races and backgrounds. When you get to med school, ask some of the upperclassmen for suggestions about faculty who are willing to serve as mentors for students with career goals like yours. Your mentor doesn't have to be of the same sex or race as you are. S/he should make you aware of what you need to do to be competitive for that field and help you meet the "right" people at your institution. to you with school.

People fare in the The Match according to how well they fared in medical school. Every program director is looking for the best people that they can find. The top performers from any school do quite well.

The most important thing with matching is to make sure that you are competitive for the specialty that you wish to enter. If you are in the bottom half of your class, you are likely not going to match into one of the competitive specialties such as dermatology, orthopedic surgery or neurosurgery. There is simply too much competition from students who have been high achievers.

If you choose a less competitive specialty, and you have good academics (GPA/USMLE Step I scores), you can look at the top residency locations for your specialty. Again, you can rule out Family Medicine at Harvard if your academics are not excellent but you can match into a good program in one of the primary care specialties such as Internal Medicine, Family Medicine, Psychiatry and Pediatrics. There are simply loads of excellent programs out there to make application to.

Even the folks in the bottom half of the class and at the very bottom, provided you have attended medical school here in the US, have a good shot at a strong program in most specialties except the most competitive. There are plenty of residency slots out there and many choices to make. Most people get into trouble when they choose a specialty that is too competitive or they apply at the most competitive residency locations and don't get enough interview invitations.

Race and ethnicity are even less of a factor with residency programs than performance in medical school. If you managed to do well, you can determine your fate regardless of color. Since the match is done by computer algorithm with your choice entered and the programs that interviewed you entered, race is pretty much a neutral issue.

There are few, if any, residency programs that are going to outright refuse to interview a black medical school graduate with good academics.

 

[SigurRos]

Unless you did not apply as a URM, you cannot really make the claim that URM status did not significantly boost your chances.

You love to look for an argument or a debate, do you not?

My point was to say that at SOME schools the overall application is looked at.

To clarify, I feel this way because there were candidates of my race with far better stats than me who did not get into the same schools. And there were non-URM who got in with far worse. I am not going to pout about that. I don't know what else they brought to the table and nor do I care. I am glad that schools don't just look at numbers. And all I could do was bring all that I had to the process. It was still a crap shoot, and good for me that I was fortunate enough to make it with my average numbers. I know that there are people with merely average numbers who don't get in, is that somehow my fault?

No. I was convincing enough on paper and in person so I made it. Each has to make there own case and spin all factors to their benefit.

 

[mdnsw]

Unless you did not apply as a URM, you cannot really make the claim that URM status did not significantly boost your chances.

If it didn't make a significant difference, there wouldn't even be a box for you to check and they wouldn't require a photograph before the interview invitations go out. It's laughable to claim it doesn't have an effect unless you are extraordinary in some way, which almost none of us are, that's why it's called extraordinary.

 

[njbmd]

Thread off topic and now closed.