Advice on the fields Nurse Praticioner (NP) Vs Physician Assistant (PA).

[italianlifter]

Before I keep into my question completely I thought it would be good to start off this thread with sharing a little about myself and why I am deciding to pursue deeper into the medical field. I am currently a 23 year old male who was born and raised on Long Island, New York for 20 years before my parents decided to move down to Georgia so my father can take care of his parents. During this time of living in Georgia I thought I found my dream career in firefighting cause of the way it sounded (Yes I know this sounds stupid but at the time I was not thinking properly). So I pursued my career in firefighting with getting all my fire certifications and EMT certification. Long story short turned out after doing this career for 2 years now I really dread it and realized this career is not for me. I do have to say though if it was not for the fire department then I would of never realized how much I enjoy the medical field being an EMT. Its something about making patient contact and helping them through a tough time gives me so much satisfaction.

After realizing how much I really enjoyed the medical field I wanted to pursue a better career in it or more advanced. So right now I am torn between pursing becoming a PA or a NP. I would of most likely chose the Nurse pratictioner route over the Physician assistant cause of being able to own your own practice in some states which I heard (not sure if thats true). The only thing that is stopping me from pursing the Nurse Practitioner route is that I heard it is soon going to become a doctorate level degree which I don't believe would be worth that amount of schooling compared to a physician assistant and no I am not trying to sound lazy, I'm just trying to weigh in the best options for me.

The reason I am posting this thread is cause I am looking for advice from anyone on here who are pursing one or the other and why they decided to purse that field. I have 2 doctors in my family and I know someone will say why not just go and become a doctor. Well I hope I don't sound like an ass or lazy but I just don't wanna be in school for that amount of time before finally starting my career. Appreciate anyone who read this and I appreciate all the replies ahead of time. Thanks!

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[deleted6669]

really depends on whatspecialty you want to work in.
Emergency medicine, orthopedics, surgery, and most hospital based jobs go PA as they own these.
Psych, neonatology, family medicine, women's health and most outpatient jobs, go NP as they own these.
for info on the PA profession see www.aapa.org and www.physicianassistantforum.com

 

[pamac]

Owning your own practice is a cool idea, but more complicated in practice. I know a few NP's that have done it, under pretty good circumstances at that, and although lucrative, it came with its own set of problems that hardly made it worth it. The independence angle can be useful in certain circumstances, but for the most part, I would expect to function similar to what a PA does.

For the most part, its true about the areas where you tend to see more PAs... surgery, certain specialties, ortho (which is basically surgery). NPs are in plenty of ER's, and make up about one third of the non physician providers in ER's nationwide, so its by no means dominated by PA's. Inpatient medicine is similar. My facility only hires NP's for hospitalist roles, and the ER is 50/50 NPs to PA's. The hospital system across town mostly hires PAs for hospitalists, and most of their ER's have PAs as the midlevel of choice. It varies regionally, but my location isn't very different than what you see other places by any means. There are lots of PA's here in family practice and minute clinics too. Its a grab bag.

I can sympathize with not wanting to make firefighting a career. You might really want to consider PA school though. NP school might not be a very fast route by comparison. If you already have a degree, you might be better suited looking at PA.

 

[675151]

Frankly, just do whatever will incur less opportunity cost. You've probably got a statistically better chance and probably less expensive schooling with NP. Contrarily, we'll all agree PAs get a better curricular path. All said, income and role will be about the same either way.

Don't use private practice ownership as your driving factor. It's more pie in the sky than anything. You'd do better by opening a chain of liquor stores.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Nurses can get into management within hospitals much more easily than PAs.

 

[pamac]

^that might be true, but you have to kiss a lot of butt along the way, and often put in a lot of time. There is a lot of competition and no guarantees along the way. I've seen nurses put in a lot of time chasing a management spot only to have them hire outside the department or organization. And when top staff turns over, you could leave with them. But yes, PAs don't fill those roles... And it's to their credit. They usually are off making money and not showing up to and endless parade of meetings. Nursing management.... Yuck.

 

[deleted6669]

I made the management mistake once and have avoided several times since when offered "promotions". I was associate chief of a community hospital ED for 2 years 15 years ago. it was awful. 7 am mtgs after getting off work at 2 am, etc.

 

[pamac]

Nobody wants to grow up to be a manager. If they do, they are weird. You certainly don't go to PA school to be one. I know a couple NP's that were in upper level management as directors, but one of them left to go see patients once an offer came through that exceeded the salary of the director's position. It took a while, because directors tend to make decent money, but it comes back to quality of life issues. Does one's dream consist of working 5 days a week 8-5, getting phone calls in the middle of the night regarding management decisions, and then having to justify those decisions in turn to your own bosses, attending meetings and dumb events, making appearances on the floor at odd hours to show solidarity with the staff, being treated like just another employee by your own bosses, having to worry about whether your job is safe, implementing other peoples initiatives, having others take credit for things you do, having to not only make your bosses happy but also those under you, etc, etc. Anyone wanting to become a CNO can get in line the nurses with MBA's.

 

[deleted6669]

YUP to all of the above. I did the chief thing in addition to full time clinical practice. the worst part was writing the schedule. I scheduled myself last to avoid any appearance of giving myself a primo schedule. once everyone else had their cme, vacation, kids events, sick leave, etc covered I was working 200+ hrs/mo , alternating days/nights, working every weekend, etc. it sucked.

 

[italianlifter]

really depends on whatspecialty you want to work in.
Emergency medicine, orthopedics, surgery, and most hospital based jobs go PA as they own these.
Psych, neonatology, family medicine, women's health and most outpatient jobs, go NP as they own these.
for info on the PA profession see www.aapa.org and www.physicianassistantforum.com

Hey Emedpa thanks for responding to my post. I can really see myself going into the NP family medicine specialty over the Physician assistant mainly due to the fact that being that I am 23 years old now and I have yet to start college for my degree. I've heard how competitive it is to get accepted into the Physician assistant school and just don't wanna end up not getting accepted. The only thing that is holding me back from fully pursing the NP degree is that I just recently heard that NP will soon be required to have a DNP degree rather then a masters and I'm not quite sure if that is worth it.

 

[italianlifter]

Owning your own practice is a cool idea, but more complicated in practice. I know a few NP's that have done it, under pretty good circumstances at that, and although lucrative, it came with its own set of problems that hardly made it worth it. The independence angle can be useful in certain circumstances, but for the most part, I would expect to function similar to what a PA does.

For the most part, its true about the areas where you tend to see more PAs... surgery, certain specialties, ortho (which is basically surgery). NPs are in plenty of ER's, and make up about one third of the non physician providers in ER's nationwide, so its by no means dominated by PA's. Inpatient medicine is similar. My facility only hires NP's for hospitalist roles, and the ER is 50/50 NPs to PA's. The hospital system across town mostly hires PAs for hospitalists, and most of their ER's have PAs as the midlevel of choice. It varies regionally, but my location isn't very different than what you see other places by any means. There are lots of PA's here in family practice and minute clinics too. Its a grab bag.

I can sympathize with not wanting to make firefighting a career. You might really want to consider PA school though. NP school might not be a very fast route by comparison. If you already have a degree, you might be better suited looking at PA.

Hello and thank you responding to my post. I appreciate you understand my reason for wanting to leave the firefighting profession. Its just not a profession I want to be in anymore but unfortunately I am stuck with this job until I am able to leave this job for another job. You said I might be better suited for PA school if I already have a degree but unfortunately I do not currently have a degree so I would be starting from square one and what worries me the most about going the PA route is not getting accepted into the PA school. You are correct that the comparison between the two professions are very similar in the fact that they will take basically the same amount time to acquire but it seems like getting into NP school is a bit easier or a bit more likely then PA school and I hope this doesn't sound pathetic or lazy cause thats not my aim at all. I just feel like I wasted all my years so far being 23 years old and don't want to end up doing anymore of that. Thanks again for posting my friend. It is very well appreciated!

 

[italianlifter]

Frankly, just do whatever will incur less opportunity cost. You've probably got a statistically better chance and probably less expensive schooling with NP. Contrarily, we'll all agree PAs get a better curricular path. All said, income and role will be about the same either way.

Don't use private practice ownership as your driving factor. It's more pie in the sky than anything. You'd do better by opening a chain of liquor stores.

Hello sir and thank you for responding to my post. Yeah man i agree with you completely about both professions being very similar in comparison and the reason why I am mainly itching towards NP over PA is mainly the cost seems to be a bit less then PA and it seems like it will be a bit easier to get accepted into NP school over PA school. Yeah after a bit thought about opening up a practice, I agree that it might not be the best idea and I would much rather just stay within a hospital and do family medicine if possible. Thanks for responding to my post man and its appreciated!

 

[pamac]

If you don't already have a degree, that changes the calculus a bit... at least from my perspective. The way I see it, if you have to decide to go to school to get your undergrad degree, and THEN apply to PA school, you might be better off getting a nursing degree, and then getting an NP (and no, the DNP is not yet the requirement by any means... you can find plenty of masters degree NP programs). The reason why I would go after the nursing degree if you are starting from scratch is because the process to become a "midlevel" provider becomes more deliberate and structured. You get into RN school, then get your RN, then go to work and work on getting into your NP program, then you work while you do NP school. To me, I don't like gambling on my future. You could go get a bachelors degree in something, and then have to hope you get into PA school (which is pretty hard to get into). I wouldn't want to spend a lot of money to get a degree, and then struggle to get to the next phase. If I'm going to shell out all that money, I want some certainty built into the equation.

I don't think you are lazy for wanting some certainty for your money. If nothing else, a nursing degree is a good investment. Nursing work can be hard, but you are pretty much guaranteed a job anywhere in the country, and in many places in the world. The work can suck at times, though. But so can being unemployed or working in a coffee shop after getting a four year degree while you wait to get into PA school. I've seen a lot of folks fall down along the way to chasing a good profession like PA school or med school. I've yet to see an RN working in a coffee shop waiting to go to the next phase. If you had a degree, I'd say just bang out the prereqs for PA school and go that route, but you gotta pay the bills.

And also, to answer a question you posed... NP school is fairly well priced. Most I've seen are between $20-$40k total. Mine is just above $30k. There are a few PA schools that cheap, but they are also some of the more popular programs people are gunning for. Because I'm working, and making great money, I could literally write a check tomorrow for the total cost of my program. I made enough last year in overtime alone to cover all my expenses.

 

[deleted6669]

also you could get the BSN/RN and opt to go to PA school. many nurses do decide to do that vs NP for a variety of reasons(surgical nurse to surgical PA, etc).

 

[italianlifter]

If you don't already have a degree, that changes the calculus a bit... at least from my perspective. The way I see it, if you have to decide to go to school to get your undergrad degree, and THEN apply to PA school, you might be better off getting a nursing degree, and then getting an NP (and no, the DNP is not yet the requirement by any means... you can find plenty of masters degree NP programs). The reason why I would go after the nursing degree if you are starting from scratch is because the process to become a "midlevel" provider becomes more deliberate and structured. You get into RN school, then get your RN, then go to work and work on getting into your NP program, then you work while you do NP school. To me, I don't like gambling on my future. You could go get a bachelors degree in something, and then have to hope you get into PA school (which is pretty hard to get into). I wouldn't want to spend a lot of money to get a degree, and then struggle to get to the next phase. If I'm going to shell out all that money, I want some certainty built into the equation.

I don't think you are lazy for wanting some certainty for your money. If nothing else, a nursing degree is a good investment. Nursing work can be hard, but you are pretty much guaranteed a job anywhere in the country, and in many places in the world. The work can suck at times, though. But so can being unemployed or working in a coffee shop after getting a four year degree while you wait to get into PA school. I've seen a lot of folks fall down along the way to chasing a good profession like PA school or med school. I've yet to see an RN working in a coffee shop waiting to go to the next phase. If you had a degree, I'd say just bang out the prereqs for PA school and go that route, but you gotta pay the bills.

And also, to answer a question you posed... NP school is fairly well priced. Most I've seen are between $20-$40k total. Mine is just above $30k. There are a few PA schools that cheap, but they are also some of the more popular programs people are gunning for. Because I'm working, and making great money, I could literally write a check tomorrow for the total cost of my program. I made enough last year in overtime alone to cover all my expenses.

Hey man I appreciate you replying back to my post and even more for understanding me cause now a days everyone just wants to judge everyone, so for that I appreciate you Sir.

Hey man yeah sorry I should of stated a little better in my original post about not having a college degree as of right now to begin with and thats my fault. You literally read my mind when you said "structured" cause that is actually how I live my life. I love having a structured life and now five years from now what my possibilities are and thats why when I was first looking at PA school I was very nervous about it cause I heard how hard it was to get accepted into it and I just did not want to end up not getting accepted and being 27 years old. The only reason why I brought up the DNP degree is I just heard that more places are soon to be having to required but thanks for clearing it up dude.

Ive heard how sucky the nursing job can be and honestly man its like any job in my view. You will have those days where nothing goes right and then you will have those good days but I believe if I set my eyes on my ultimate goal then I can see myself dealing with the nonsense. Heck I work at a fire station so Im working with a bunch of princess all day anyways haha (joke). I completely agree with you when you say that there will always be a need for RNs cause its true there will be due to the fact that people get sick and need to be taken care of (thats why I love the medical field, can never go wrong with a choice in it).

Hey man thats awesome that you made all that money to pay off your expenses and honestly dude just from everything you have said I'm pretty dead set on going for my Nurse Practitioner degree. It will be a lot of handwork and dedication to achieve this but I believe it will be all worth it in the long run.

Im currently just trying to figure out if I should move to Texas or Florida to start my nursing career came I heard Texas is very cheap to live in and they pay very well for the nurses and NP's but heard the opposite for Florida. The only thing about Florida is I have a place to stay down there while I work on my degree and well Florida is nice lol. I just need to get the heck out of Georgia.

Anyways man I appreciate you replying to my post and help me with my decision man!

 

[NYCGuy86]

Hey man I appreciate you replying back to my post and even more for understanding me cause now a days everyone just wants to judge everyone, so for that I appreciate you Sir.

Hey man yeah sorry I should of stated a little better in my original post about not having a college degree as of right now to begin with and thats my fault. You literally read my mind when you said "structured" cause that is actually how I live my life. I love having a structured life and now five years from now what my possibilities are and thats why when I was first looking at PA school I was very nervous about it cause I heard how hard it was to get accepted into it and I just did not want to end up not getting accepted and being 27 years old. The only reason why I brought up the DNP degree is I just heard that more places are soon to be having to required but thanks for clearing it up dude.

Ive heard how sucky the nursing job can be and honestly man its like any job in my view. You will have those days where nothing goes right and then you will have those good days but I believe if I set my eyes on my ultimate goal then I can see myself dealing with the nonsense. Heck I work at a fire station so Im working with a bunch of princess all day anyways haha (joke). I completely agree with you when you say that there will always be a need for RNs cause its true there will be due to the fact that people get sick and need to be taken care of (thats why I love the medical field, can never go wrong with a choice in it).

Hey man thats awesome that you made all that money to pay off your expenses and honestly dude just from everything you have said I'm pretty dead set on going for my Nurse Practitioner degree. It will be a lot of handwork and dedication to achieve this but I believe it will be all worth it in the long run.

Im currently just trying to figure out if I should move to Texas or Florida to start my nursing career came I heard Texas is very cheap to live in and they pay very well for the nurses and NP's but heard the opposite for Florida. The only thing about Florida is I have a place to stay down there while I work on my degree and well Florida is nice lol. I just need to get the heck out of Georgia.

Anyways man I appreciate you replying to my post and help me with my decision man!

Glad to hear. I personally decided on nursing because of all the options available beyond direct clinical care at the bedside (noting that of course there are options for PAs as well). There are plenty of MSN programs for NP available, you won't be forced to do a DNP. Always remember to look for rigorous programs, not ones that let you get your NP license by basically just writing a check.

You should come back up to NYC area haha (I'm also from LI). I'm a new grad RN at a major hospital in the city, and we start at $95K, goes up to $99.5K after a year. You also get differentials for experience, certification, etc. Cost of living is high of course, but salary also varies (I was offered $75K at another hospital). I'm very much interested in inpatient and specialty care, and NPs are found in most area hospitals in most/all specialties and critical care units in the NYC area.

 

[italianlifter]

Glad to hear. I personally decided on nursing because of all the options available beyond direct clinical care at the bedside (noting that of course there are options for PAs as well). There are plenty of MSN programs for NP available, you won't be forced to do a DNP. Always remember to look for rigorous programs, not ones that let you get your NP license by basically just writing a check.

You should come back up to NYC area haha (I'm also from LI). I'm a new grad RN at a major hospital in the city, and we start at $95K, goes up to $99.5K after a year. You also get differentials for experience, certification, etc. Cost of living is high of course, but salary also varies (I was offered $75K at another hospital). I'm very much interested in inpatient and specialty care, and NPs are found in most area hospitals in most/all specialties and critical care units in the NYC area.

Hey NYCGuy86, its awesome to hear from a fellow New Yorker. Man I wouldn't mind going back to New York especially Long Island but its just the cost of living like you said. New York city is awesome to work at man and my dad was an NYPD detective before retiring after 21 years and my Grandma was actually an RN in garden city haha. Im actually currently really wanting to live in Florida and become a NP down there but the cost of living is just so damn expensive and its mainly where retirees head. Hey man I really appreciate your information and it was awesome to hear from a fellow New Yorker! Thanks for the advice

 

[italianlifter]

Btw when Im looking for a NP school to attend.. what actually should I be looking for and I really would like to avoid private sectors due to the cost compared to community sectors. Thanks

 

[pamac]

I hear really good things about Texas, both for RNs and for NPs. Florida is a difficult environment for NPs, but if all you are doing there is getting an NP, then it may work.

But yeah, I like the "checkpoints" in nursing. If someone is having a hard time getting into RN school, then they can easily go get certified through a shorter program to become a licensed practical nurse, and get a toehold in the field until they bridge to become an RN. The work pays less, and they are seen less and less in hospitals over time (you still see plenty in places like assisted living), but the wages aren't terrible, and there are programs that will "bridge" you over to become an RN if you take more coursework. But I'd skip that if you can just go on to get an ASN (associates degree in nursing) or even better a BSN. But as you can see, there are stepwise actions you can take that keep you moving forward. I applied to PA school with decent (more on the low end of grades) stats and was glad I also applied to RN school. After interviewing and not getting in where I wanted, I faced the prospect of waiting another year hoping to do better the next cycle. Fortunately, I was accepted to RNschool and everything fell into place to keep moving forward. From there, getting into NP school is no problem. And usually, your debt is much less than PA school. Even my most debt ridden RN friends will come out of NP school better off financially than any of my PA friends. I was talking to one RN the other day that owed $40k on his RN education, and was hesitant to spend another $35k on NP school. I told him he would still be better off than his PA girlfriend who came out of school with more than $100k of debt.

If you were in the process of getting a bachelors degree, and had a GPA above 3.3, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest PA school, because even though it's still not a sure thing, it can be less time to get things ship-shape to get into PA school than to turn around and retool to become a nurse and go that route.

I really have enjoyed how nursing has come through for me in a big way. When I was getting my first bachelors degree in biology, I hated how I went to school for four years, and at the end of that I needed to then apply and get into another school (and then get through that) to begin to make real money. If I had originally just gone to nursing school, at the end of that four years, I would have had a really good job waiting for me, and from there I could go anywhere in the country and made upper middle class wages if I wanted. Not a bad place to start. Begin your career in a hospital environment to get that foundation, but after you do that, there are plenty of jobs around that pay well and don't involve the things that suck. I even had a product rep job offer that paid into the six figures. I don't like travel for work, so it wasn't my thing. But the area of operation would make most folks jealous (western US.... California, Washington.... Alaska... Hawaii.... Yeah.... Good route, but the fact that you are working while you are there kind of ruins it.)

At one point in college, I applied to be a firefighter. Fortunately I was just barely below the cutoff to get to the last phase, because I would have totally gone for it. Cool job for a young single guy, but real quick it would have become a job I'd hate. At its essence it's labor that's not very stimulating for me intellectually. For a lot of folks it's a dream job with more applicants denied than PA school.

 

[pamac]

Btw when Im looking for a NP school to attend.. what actually should I be looking for and I really would like to avoid private sectors due to the cost compared to community sectors. Thanks

So basically you are asking how to get into public vs private school?

So for your RN, you need good grades for your prerequisites. That usually matters a lot. Also, if they have an entrance exam (like the TEAS test... A standardized test that a lot of schools use), study for it and take practice exams. For NP school, don't worry about that yet. A private school might appeal to you more for different reasons when the time comes. I'm going to a private np school, and chose it over other public universities. I could get into just about any NP school I wanted to, and probably most PA schools at this point. I chose the one I did for a variety of reasons, from format to location (I fly there for hands on training). One of my states NP programs isn't very friendly, so I decided to go some place that respects me and my money and treats students well... This isn't undergrad. And NP hopefuls have lots of programs to choose from.

 

[italianlifter]

I hear really good things about Texas, both for RNs and for NPs. Florida is a difficult environment for NPs, but if all you are doing there is getting an NP, then it may work.

But yeah, I like the "checkpoints" in nursing. If someone is having a hard time getting into RN school, then they can easily go get certified through a shorter program to become a licensed practical nurse, and get a toehold in the field until they bridge to become an RN. The work pays less, and they are seen less and less in hospitals over time (you still see plenty in places like assisted living), but the wages aren't terrible, and there are programs that will "bridge" you over to become an RN if you take more coursework. But I'd skip that if you can just go on to get an ASN (associates degree in nursing) or even better a BSN. But as you can see, there are stepwise actions you can take that keep you moving forward. I applied to PA school with decent (more on the low end of grades) stats and was glad I also applied to RN school. After interviewing and not getting in where I wanted, I faced the prospect of waiting another year hoping to do better the next cycle. Fortunately, I was accepted to RNschool and everything fell into place to keep moving forward. From there, getting into NP school is no problem. And usually, your debt is much less than PA school. Even my most debt ridden RN friends will come out of NP school better off financially than any of my PA friends. I was talking to one RN the other day that owed $40k on his RN education, and was hesitant to spend another $35k on NP school. I told him he would still be better off than his PA girlfriend who came out of school with more than $100k of debt.

If you were in the process of getting a bachelors degree, and had a GPA above 3.3, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest PA school, because even though it's still not a sure thing, it can be less time to get things ship-shape to get into PA school than to turn around and retool to become a nurse and go that route.

I really have enjoyed how nursing has come through for me in a big way. When I was getting my first bachelors degree in biology, I hated how I went to school for four years, and at the end of that I needed to then apply and get into another school (and then get through that) to begin to make real money. If I had originally just gone to nursing school, at the end of that four years, I would have had a really good job waiting for me, and from there I could go anywhere in the country and made upper middle class wages if I wanted. Not a bad place to start. Begin your career in a hospital environment to get that foundation, but after you do that, there are plenty of jobs around that pay well and don't involve the things that suck. I even had a product rep job offer that paid into the six figures. I don't like travel for work, so it wasn't my thing. But the area of operation would make most folks jealous (western US.... California, Washington.... Alaska... Hawaii.... Yeah.... Good route, but the fact that you are working while you are there kind of ruins it.)

At one point in college, I applied to be a firefighter. Fortunately I was just barely below the cutoff to get to the last phase, because I would have totally gone for it. Cool job for a young single guy, but real quick it would have become a job I'd hate. At its essence it's labor that's not very stimulating for me intellectually. For a lot of folks it's a dream job with more applicants denied than PA school.

Hey Pamac I really appreciate you replying back to my poster and again giving such great information. Before I actually start replying back to I would like to just Thank you and everyone else who relied back to this poster cause everyone on here has helped me make my decision and I greatly appreciate that.


During my research of finding places to live other then Georgia I came along Texas and like you said I heard very good things as well In Texas and heard that the RNs and NPs make very good money there and also heard that it is very cheap to live in Texas which is why I am really considering moving to Texas. The only issue with that is I have no place to stay and currently would not have a job down there so I really have no idea how I could even get down there which sucks cause I really want to start this career going. I’m not understanding what you meant when you said Florida is a difficult environment for NPs when you then said if all Im doing is NP then it may work? What do you mean friend? I know Florida is currently looking to higher a lot of NP’s due to NP but they only start them out around 88k according to BLS where Texas pays between 98-107k which is a difference. The only benefit of me going to Florida is I would have a place to stay at my uncles house until I am able to get my RN or at least my LPN. Obviously if I had a place to stay or was able to land a job in Texas then I would go to Texas in a heart beat but I don't haha. Its stressing me out man and sorry to rant about this.


I agree with you about if the chance is there to avoid a LPN certificate and to go straight to a BSN then I would be stupid not to choose that route. Like you said friend there are so many different routes in nursing that anyone can take to help them reach their goals and thats what I really love about nursing honestly. Dude thats gotta be a crappy feeling of not getting accepted into something you worked hard for but at the same time I really am happy for you that everything in the long run worked out for you. I’m not going to lie to you or anyone else on here when I say I was a huge slacker back in the day and I wish I could honestly go back in time cause in my High School days I would hate waking up and going to school. I was one of those C- & C+ students all throughout my High School years and I never studied or even tried to do good in High School which is unfortunate cause I felt like I threw those days away but what I am grateful for is that I learned from those mistakes and I am trying to clean myself up now where other people around my age still don't try and improve themselves which is sad to see but its what it is. I heard how NP school is the least expensive between the two and that is always a good thing to hear for anything haha. Man honestly for me finishing up mu masters degree with only 75k debt total and making more coming out then the debt I have is worth it in my opinion but not everyone sees it that way but PA school is very expensive like you said that girl will have more then 100k of debt and just sucks honestly but as long as she is happy with her choice then no one can blame her for making that choice (I know i cant lol). I have a doctor own the family who specialized in family medicine and his son and wife actually decided to go to PA school. Just recently his wife graduated from PA school and his son is currently in it but at the same time he paid for it lol (lucky a holes haha). Anyways I would be more then happy to become an NP and honestly say to myself I messed up my High School years but cleaned myself up and bettered myself.


Dude like i’ve stated before I am really happy that everything worked out for you in the long run. Me personally I would hate the feeling of knowing that my first four years of school for a degree was to help me get into a school that I would need to apply for all over again cause like you said it all comes down to being accepted and its never 100% guarantee and I’m just not sure if I can do that. Dude everything you said is something I couldn't agree more with and you know I’m glad you find yourself and did find something you love man cause thats awesome and Im even more appreciative of you sharing your wisdom and advice towards me cause that really means a lot.


Man I’m going to be honest with you when I say this, you are very lucky the Firefighter route did not work out cause honestly man it sounds all fun and awesome but it honestly sucks so much. Us Firefighters have to work more then two jobs to even make it through life, the drama surrounding the fire service is just ridiculous cause everyone is just out to get everyone and I struggle to understand this. What I really hate about the service is ever since I joined man I started having so many health issues with my lungs and nose and it sucks cause I’m a fitness man and I take really good care of myself. I workout 5-6 days a week and do my meal prepping while counting my macros man. Seriously take very good care of my health and I’m pissed that the fire service messed me up but I'm hoping when I officially get out I will start to feel better. I’m just worried about developing COPD from the damn fire service. Listen man it sucks and I'm glad it didn't work out for you cause I would hate to see anyone go through what I m going through. The fire service is not a good job and I do not care what anyone says about that man. Like you said for some its a dream job but at the same time its mainly for people who are lazy and want the easy route and thats why I want to get out too cause I want to better myself and not get stuck with the “easy” way.

 

[italianlifter]

So basically you are asking how to get into public vs private school?

So for your RN, you need good grades for your prerequisites. That usually matters a lot. Also, if they have an entrance exam (like the TEAS test... A standardized test that a lot of schools use), study for it and take practice exams. For NP school, don't worry about that yet. A private school might appeal to you more for different reasons when the time comes. I'm going to a private np school, and chose it over other public universities. I could get into just about any NP school I wanted to, and probably most PA schools at this point. I chose the one I did for a variety of reasons, from format to location (I fly there for hands on training). One of my states NP programs isn't very friendly, so I decided to go some place that respects me and my money and treats students well... This isn't undergrad. And NP hopefuls have lots of programs to choose from.

Hey man thanks for replying to my post again and okay so from my understanding it all starts with my prerequisites and getting good grades (understood). Do you know exactly how I can study for this test? Is there a study guide at Barnes and Nobles by any chance? I guess for now I shouldn't worry to much about the NP school and just firstly work on getting into nursing school first and then once I finish my BSN then worry about NP school lol. I’m thinking way to ahead if myself and I just need to take one step at a time haha. Im just overall excited I guess which isn't a bad thing but I need to slow it down haha. Yeah man I agree with you that if I am spending my money then I would like to be treated with respect as well. If you don't mind me asking what school was it that you felt was not friendly and what school do you currently attend? Sorry if this is a personal question.

 

[SansaStarkMD]

If you like healthcare but don't want to do med school, go PA. If you are already a nurse, a male, and are insecure about taking orders from physicians go NP.

 

[italianlifter]

If you like healthcare but don't want to do med school, go PA. If you are already a nurse, a male, and are insecure about taking orders from physicians go NP.

So becoming a NP makes someone insecure? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? I can honestly tell you are a troll who just seems to want and try to annoy people so I'm not even going to feed you. appreciate you replying but for future reference, if your going to try and be a dream killer then do it elsewhere. Pathetic. NP and PA are very similar by the way, just different routes.

 

[SansaStarkMD]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. That's just what I honestly believe and have seen.

 

[SansaStarkMD]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. That's just what I honestly believe and have seen.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

So becoming a NP makes someone insecure? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? I can honestly tell you are a troll who just seems to want and try to annoy people so I'm not even going to feed you. appreciate you replying but for future reference, if your going to try and be a dream killer then do it elsewhere. Pathetic. NP and PA are very similar by the way, just different routes.

While I disagree with how she (?) said it, I can see valid points in her comment.

If you like medicine, but don't want to go to med school (cause you're afraid of the work, you have family obligation, or...like me...you're just too damn old) then go to PA school. PA education is far superior to NP education.

If you're already a nurse, then the cost-benefit analysis of PA vs NP almost always favors the NP route.

I think her (?) point about "insecure" taking orders from a physician stems from the NP push for independent practice. If you're the (insecure) type that doesn't wanna take orders from anyone, then become an NP so you can more easily start your own clinic.

 

[deleted6669]

Italianlifter- don't think Sansa was trying to offend. she just meant if you don't want to have to deal with docs, go np, not pa. it is easier as an np to open your own practice as you don't have to hire a physician partner like a pa does.

 

[pamac]

If you like healthcare but don't want to do med school, go PA. If you are already a nurse, a male, and are insecure about taking orders from physicians go NP.

These days I'm much less bullish about PA school for folks that aren't well along the way to finishing a bachelors degree, unless maybe they are just graduated from high school. If you have one more year to go before finishing up a degree, and can cram in some pertinent pre-reqs, then why not? But nursing is a good stepwise way to get where you want to go and have employment along the way. It accommodates life's detours more readily. The landscape is littered with undergrads who wanted to be PA's, but got sidetracked. Its tough to find a job with a full BS in biology, let alone 1/2 or 3/4 of one. But folks shouldn't retool themselves in the middle of a degree to go to nursing school if they have decent grades. Just cruise on in to PA school.

 

[pamac]

Do you think you can obtain a better medical education going the NP route? The answer is a definitive "no".

And PA's aren't at the level of physicians.... but somehow they are adequate, and NP's aren't.

For every hardcore PA hating in NP's, there are countless MD/DOs with the same feelings about PAs.

 

[italianlifter]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. That's just what I honestly believe and have seen.

I just want to apologize to you cause your original post did sound offenses but if that was not your intention then I apologize for writing back in a harmful way. just for future reference though try and word your posts a little clearer so it doesn't sound so one sided. Again I apologize for anything I said that was disrespectful.

 

[italianlifter]

While I disagree with how she (?) said it, I can see valid points in her comment.

If you like medicine, but don't want to go to med school (cause you're afraid of the work, you have family obligation, or...like me...you're just too damn old) then go to PA school. PA education is far superior to NP education.

If you're already a nurse, then the cost-benefit analysis of PA vs NP almost always favors the NP route.

I think her (?) point about "insecure" taking orders from a physician stems from the NP push for independent practice. If you're the (insecure) type that doesn't wanna take orders from anyone, then become an NP so you can more easily start your own clinic.

After reading her post again as well, I can understand where she is coming from but it is just how it was worded that made it sound disrespectful is all. As of right now I am currently nothing other then a Firefighter planning on starting school in the spring. Being that I am 23 years old now and wanting to get my career started as soon as possible I chose the NP route mainly cause it is like a set guideline where PA school is something you hope to get accepted in. My aunt who is a PA right now got denied six times before being accepted. Granted her husband is a doctor who specializes in family medicine but still I would hate to of been denied six times before finally being accepted somewhere.

Listen insecure or not has nothing to do with why I chose the NP route or choosing the NP route. I honestly really don't care about taking orders from anyone cause sometimes its good for the main reason that the two of you can clarify of decisions you are making. I just like the idea of NP being a cheaper route and more a set guideline is all. Has nothing to do with insecurity or the disliking of taking orders. If that was true I would of yelled at all my superiors at the fire department by now haha.

 

[italianlifter]

Do you think you can obtain a better medical education going the NP route? The answer is a definitive "no".

My question to you is, Do you really think you can obtain a better education going the PA route? I believe the answer is no again and heres why. Both professions may sound very similar but they have differences such as going the NP route mainly focuses on the patient and how can we prevent the patient from coming back to tis hospital where PA mainly focus on medicine and the pathophysiology of how to reacts in the body. Thats not to say that PA's don't focus on the patient cause they do, what I am trying to say is that there way of treating is different then a NP and there schooling is different. I just really hate the idea that in the medical field everyone always has to talk bad about another profession in the field. We are all different fields specialized in different categories but working for the same thing and that is the patient. Our primary goal is the patient and the well being of the patient. I don't care if your Nurse, Physician, PA, NP, Physical therapist, LPN or whatever. We all have a role in what we do and I think we really need to stop talking down on each other and start more focusing on how we can do our jobs better cause thats something that can always be improved. I respect PA's just like I know some PA's respect NP's. We need to work together and not tear each others education apart.

 

[italianlifter]

These days I'm much less bullish about PA school for folks that aren't well along the way to finishing a bachelors degree, unless maybe they are just graduated from high school. If you have one more year to go before finishing up a degree, and can cram in some pertinent pre-reqs, then why not? But nursing is a good stepwise way to get where you want to go and have employment along the way. It accommodates life's detours more readily. The landscape is littered with undergrads who wanted to be PA's, but got sidetracked. Its tough to find a job with a full BS in biology, let alone 1/2 or 3/4 of one. But folks shouldn't retool themselves in the middle of a degree to go to nursing school if they have decent grades. Just cruise on in to PA school.

I couldn't agree more of what you said. Seeing that I do not posses a degree right now I am choosing the NP route mainly cause I know what my future could possibly be as long as I study and work hard. Like you said it all depends on the individual and what there "status" is as of the moment. Some folks are more suited to go the PA route where other folks like me or more likely to be suited going the NP route. It all depends on the individual and that doesn't mean one field is better then the other.

 

[italianlifter]

And PA's aren't at the level of physicians.... but somehow they are adequate, and NP's aren't.

For every hardcore PA hating in NP's, there are countless MD/DOs with the same feelings about PAs.

Agreed. Hopefully you read my post about me responding to his post.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

My question to you is, Do you really think you can obtain a better education going the PA route? I believe the answer is no again and heres why. Both professions may sound very similar but they have differences such as going the NP route mainly focuses on the patient and how can we prevent the patient from coming back to tis hospital where PA mainly focus on medicine and the pathophysiology of how to reacts in the body. Thats not to say that PA's don't focus on the patient cause they do, what I am trying to say is that there way of treating is different then a NP and there schooling is different. I just really hate the idea that in the medical field everyone always has to talk bad about another profession in the field. We are all different fields specialized in different categories but working for the same thing and that is the patient. Our primary goal is the patient and the well being of the patient. I don't care if your Nurse, Physician, PA, NP, Physical therapist, LPN or whatever. We all have a role in what we do and I think we really need to stop talking down on each other and start more focusing on how we can do our jobs better cause thats something that can always be improved. I respect PA's just like I know some PA's respect NP's. We need to work together and not tear each others education apart.

Yes, nobody who has any clue about the differences in PA and NP education argues that they are equal. MD/DO education >>> PA education >>> NP education.

Same thing applies to nursing education. NP education >>RN education > LPN education >>> CMA education >> CNA education.

It's not talking bad about a profession. It's not disrespect for a profession. It's not tearing anyone apart. It's the simple, basic, irrefutable truth.

Your statement that "going the NP route mainly focuses on the patient" is ridiculous as it infers that physicians and PAs DON'T focus on the patient. That's like saying a Firefighter II is more focused on saving the structure, while a Firefighter I "mainly focuses on putting out the fire". Sounds stupid, doesn't it!

 

[Boatswain2PA]

If you are 23 years old and still in undergrad then I would recommend you pursue pre-med with the goal of getting into medical school. If you achieve a pre-med degree but can't get into medical school, then you've met the pre-req's for PA.

If you can't get into PA, then you've met the pre-req's for an accelerated RN program. Then you can advance to NP.

 

[italianlifter]

If you are 23 years old and still in undergrad then I would recommend you pursue pre-med with the goal of getting into medical school. If you achieve a pre-med degree but can't get into medical school, then you've met the pre-req's for PA.

If you can't get into PA, then you've met the pre-req's for an accelerated RN program. Then you can advance to NP.

I understand that going to Med school would more then likely be a great option for anyone but correct me if I'm wrong, if you decide to go to Med school then wouldn't you be better off just becoming doctor cause is that not technically the route? See I understand where you are coming from and I am by no means trying to degrade what you are saying but it seems like your way may cost a lot more and seem more of a "what if" scenario. See for me I know for a fact i'm not really up for the challenge of becoming a doctor for the main reason is that I don't really feel like thats where I want to be. Not trying to sound lazy or pathetic cause thats not the case and i hope you don't see it that way. You are right in comparing Firefighter 2 and Firefighter 1 but I think what I said was a little misleading. I was not trying to say that PA's and Physicians don't focus on patients at all, what I was trying to explain is that there education is more "focused" on medicine and how it affects the patients. This is what I just heard and Im still doing my research on it. Sorry if it sounded wrong cause that was not my intention. I have two family members right now, one graduated PA school and become a teacher... (have no idea why) and the other didn't want to follow in his dad footsteps in becoming a doctor so he decided to go to PA school instead. There are two nurses in the family as well. One is retired and the other just holds the degree. So yeah i guess my family is scattered everywhere haha but I hope you don't take this the wrong way when I say that I'm just trying to find the best option for me being that I'm 23 years old turning 24 eventually and I don't want to be in my mid 30's before finally starting my career. I like working man and I wanna work in something ill enjoy like medical. Just don't wanna wait 12-15 years before finally being able to enjoy what I love. Not trying to sound lazy or pathetic, just the simple truth and wanting to start helping patients cause I enjoy that. Thanks for replying back sir and I appreciate your insight. Taking it into consideration.

 

[SansaStarkMD]

Imagine your child is really sick. Do you want to take them to the person that didn't even want to take a shot at medical school because "meh, too much work." Doesn't sound like you have the motivation to overcome a tremendous deficit in education in order to be okay at bread butter for people who aren't sick (NP). You're better off going PA and owning the identity of a workhorse that punches in and punches out. Some day you will be a 30 something regardless of what path you choose. The question is what do you want to be doing when you get there? If you go the mid level route you can be happy if secretly your dream wasn't to be a physician. Just make sure that's the case. There's a reason medical school is more competitive than the other routes.

 

[italianlifter]

Imagine your child is really sick. Do you want to take them to the person that didn't even want to take a shot at medical school because "meh, too much work." Doesn't sound like you have the motivation to overcome a tremendous deficit in education in order to be okay at bread butter for people who aren't sick (NP). You're better off going PA and owning the identity of a workhorse that punches in and punches out. Some day you will be a 30 something regardless of what path you choose. The question is what do you want to be doing when you get there? If you go the mid level route you can be happy if secretly your dream wasn't to be a physician. Just make sure that's the case. There's a reason medical school is more competitive than the other routes.

Im not trying to sound rude or an dingus but please explain to me how becoming a NP is the lazy route? Your saying since a NP does not go to medical school they are lazy and unworthy to treat sick people? I really just find that disrespectful that you consider the PA's the "Workhorse" and the NP's lazy. It may very well be true that PA school is much harder then NP school but that sure as hell does not mean they know how to treat patients any better then a NP and same goes for the other way around. Your right I will be 30 something one day and thats a fact but I also don't want to be 30 something still trying to figure things out. PA and Np are both Mid level routes so which ever one is chosen is for that persons self interest alone, not which one is better and which one is superior over the other. I just find that sop pathetic honestly. Thats like saying just cause I'm not a starter on a professional team doesn't mean they are any better then the players on the bench. From what I understood a physician assistant is a "assistant" not a physician. You work under a physician so yes I wouldn't be happy bout that honestly. Thats like becoming a physical therapist assistant... I am there assistant.. not a physical therapist. Sounds to me that people who go the PA route are just as lazy as the NP's cause they couldn't become a doctor or didn't want too but I don't say that cause thats messed up. Yes medical school is always competitive and there is no doubt about that but to say someone who doesn't go to medical school is not qualified to treat someone is just plain stupid. EMTS, Paramedics and AEMTs don't go to medical school but we are there to stabilize the patient and get them to the hospital so the physicians can do what needs to be done but since they didn't go to medical school I guess they are not "valuable." Listen I'm not trying to start an argument or fight with anyone on here but I just wish everyone can be respectful of everyones decisions. You may not agree with me going the NP route and thats fine but you don't need to talk bad about the profession. Its just not right man, there is enough hate in this world...

 

[pamac]

Imagine your child is really sick. Do you want to take them to the person that didn't even want to take a shot at medical school because "meh, too much work." Doesn't sound like you have the motivation to overcome a tremendous deficit in education in order to be okay at bread butter for people who aren't sick (NP). You're better off going PA and owning the identity of a workhorse that punches in and punches out. Some day you will be a 30 something regardless of what path you choose. The question is what do you want to be doing when you get there? If you go the mid level route you can be happy if secretly your dream wasn't to be a physician. Just make sure that's the case. There's a reason medical school is more competitive than the other routes.

You're assuming way too much about this guy who is just asking questions. You can't imagine that anyone who wants to take a path that's different from your own has any merit.

I can't blame someone for wanting to gain stability along the way to their dream of being a provider instead of going to 4 years of undergrad, taking a few prereqs, and then doing the crash course that is PA school. The education at a PA program is thorough, and has to be. My local PA program takes folks with any bachelors degree that has good marks in their 5 prereq courses. They have to turn those folks into competant providers in one year of class work and one year of clinicals. It's impressive. But there are a lot of folks that fall by the wayside on the path to PA school. If someone wants to go the nursing route, they have a pretty good roadmap to get where they want to go, and have some stability along the way. Not long after hitting the workforce, NPs find their feet and hit parity with the PAs that have the superior training (and to the OP, PA school actually is well understood to be more demanding than NP programs).

The OP made it into the fire service. He's capable of stepping up to the plate, so it's inappropriate for anyone to make sweeping judgements about whether he possesses the right stuff. More people apply and get rejected from professional firefighting than medical school. I know, because I tested for 4 open seats with an auditorium full of roughly 600 other applicants. More than 40% of applicants to medical school get in. It's not the astronaut corps.

Do what makes you happy. If you want to spend 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency, and 2 years of fellowship chasing your dream, go for it. If you want to do nursing and then take some time to work as a nurse before you move on to NP or PA school, you can do that too. There's nothing that says you have to even choose NP school over PA at that point. You can spend the money to become a PA. Nurses do that sometimes. But these days, with folks with BS degrees making sandwiches and packing boxes in an Amazon warehouse for their income, I'd shy away from anything that didn't all but guarantee me a real job on graduation. I watched folks in my biology undergrad take a hit to their gpa studying hard sciences while the business majors went and took their 5 prereqs for the PA school and got accepted over them. Who benefitted from taking an easy route there?

 

[SansaStarkMD]

Too long didn't read, not saying NP's are lazy.

 

[pamac]

It wasn't any longer than the other posts.... I know you read it.

 

[Jules A]

Your statement that "going the NP route mainly focuses on the patient" is ridiculous as it infers that physicians and PAs DON'T focus on the patient.

Unfortunately imo this is a well touted mantra to justify the inadequate NP education which especially in those with no RN experience often results in a lack of technical knowledge and skill upon graduation. The NPs I know who hide behind this "holistic care" model are not usually the bad asses of the profession. I'd rather not have someone holding my hand and mopping my brow at the expense of top notch diagnosing and prescribing skills.

 

[italianlifter]

Too long didn't read, not saying NP's are lazy.

Is it cause your to lazy to read the post? Is that how your patient care is going to be as well, "oh this patient has so much wrong with them so I'm just going to neglect all that and just do what I want." I know I wouldn't trust you treating me if your lazy enough to not even read a post . Oh wait was that mean?

 

[italianlifter]

Any time an NP says "I focus on the patient, MDs and PAs don't" I can only roll my eyes. Do they really believe that MDs and PAs don't focus on the patient? Are they that brainwashed?

Please read my previous post cause you seemed to over analyze my statement. Maybe it was cause you were rolling your eyes while reading it? I don't know, anyways thanks for responding.

 

[italianlifter]

Unfortunately imo this is a well touted mantra to justify the inadequate NP education which especially in those with no RN experience often results in a lack of technical knowledge and skill upon graduation. The NPs I know who hide behind this "holistic care" model are not usually the bad asses of the profession. I'd rather not have someone holding my hand and mopping my brow at the expense of top notch diagnosing and prescribing skills.

Once again like I told the other person please read my previous post cause you seemed to over analyze my statements. It seems like every career field that is not PA is not well educated enough to perform patient care according to PA's. So you came across a few NP's that you did not agree with so your going to label all NP's the same way? I really hope that is not your philosophy on life cause then you will surely have issues.

 

[762513]

These people troll these forums. It's not worth your aggravation.

 

[italianlifter]

These people troll these forums. It's not worth your aggravation.

Your right, appreciate you posting on my forum!

 

[pamac]

If someone is trolling, it's pointless to get upset. It's just an Internet forum. Anyone can be a rockstar here.

Go read what PAs are saying about these kinds of things we've been discussing. Scroll down and pick some of the threads to read that mention NPs:

http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/index.php?/forum/448-professional-pa-general-discussion/

There are some great posts there that highlight some real, everyday challenges associated with dependent practice that are getting a lot of PAs frustrated. I came to similar conclusions as those folks long ago when I origionally pursued becoming a PA (and a lot of folks brushed aside). I felt uncomfortable with the framework of the professional relationship between the PA and the supervising physician. Back then, the natives weren't as restless as they are now, but I don't see how at this point they can wrest control away to make themselves the independent provider I would want them to be if I were among them as a PA myself. They are stuck, and it's not going to change unfortunately.

It's not about being free to open my own clinic, it's about being a worker that doesn't need these unhealthy agreements in place involving a physician and a board of medicine that is made up of non-PAs that have an interest in keeping an antiquated professional environment in place that controls my destiny to the utmost degree. It's that framework that always concerned me. My ability to provide myself a living was just too tied up in my relationship with a built-in boss. The money and time spent becoming a provider is too high a price to be treated like that, even if only on paper. But as I've seen and read and heard, there are legitimate issues that crop up within that realm that won't be ones that I face as an NP. That's just how it is, and it's why I jumped at the chance to go the nursing route. I have never regretted it....even for a moment.

PAs are very well trained. I don't think one can argue that NP education is as rigorous. PAs spend a lot of time in class and labs working on skills and covering material. I went to a school that also had a PA school in it and those folks were there all the time... Holidays, weekends, late evenings, mornings, all year durring the year they spend in class. Everyone in a PA program has a minimum level of hard science behind them, and very good grades in those courses, so faculty have a great place to start with as far as the quality of student, the amount of base scientific knowledge, and so on. As a nurse and an NP student with a couple "hard science" degrees myself (in addition to my nursing degrees), I'm an outlier among my peers in nursing, and even among most PA students. I can not only pick up a scientific paper in almost any biological discipline and understand most or all of it, but I've also contributed to the body of knowledge through research I've worked on... real projects with NIH grants, animal testing, secure facilities, results that mattered. I see the value in mastery of scientific concepts that a lot of nurses lack. But I also work among nurses that are amazing at taking care of sick people, and have a handle on material and working knowledge that makes them more effective than they are given credit for by a lot of haters.

If I have to study up on my own to be a better NP, so be it. I'm expecting to do that anyway because I'm always asking NPs how to improve upon where NP school lacks. As a nurse, I'm use to having to be a self starter to be among the folks that Docs, PAs, and NPs respect. The nurses that are bad are almost always the ones that balk at putting in any more effort to train more and gain skills off the clock.