Advice on number of programs to apply

[bestleonagg]

Hello,

I received a Step 1 score of 213 and Step 2 of 225. A brief background is that I have been heavily involved with PM&R research since 1st year with publications, have international PM&R volunteer experience, and was involved with my PM&R club. I completed an away PM&R rotation, received Honors, and will have 3 strong PM&R LoR's ready to go. I have 3 more PM&R away rotations to try to make an impression and make up for my board scores.

I understand I am a weak applicant via board scores. How many prelim IM / TY positions I should apply to? I plan to apply to nearly all PM&R positions (minimum 60) and a back-up in FM with select programs (around 30).

Thank you again.

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[Chelsea FC]

Why do you think you’re a weak app ?Is there something else? Also why so many aways?

 

[PMR2008]

Are you a FMG? Otherwise no reason to do so many rotations.

 

[Chelsea FC]

Yeah like there are other skills that you can pick up that will make you more rounded.

 

[j4pac]

The benefit of aways is (assuming you do well) it pretty much locks you in for an interview and PDs do often go with who they are comfortable with. So if you’re a lesser applicant I suppose it can help you. If you’re an average to above average applicant, likely less so unless you are getting the auditions at the elite programs.

Assuming no red flags, I’d say the OP is an average applicant as an MD. Slightly below-to average applicant as a DO. He/she’d be a below average applicant as a FMG/IMG.

With COVID, most interviews are virtual, and essentially free. Before COVID, I’d probably advise the OP to send out 45 applications as a USMD, 60 applications as a DO, and apply to every program as an FMG/IMG.

But with interviews essentially being free, heck…I’d apply to every program. Applications are cheap. $500? Pssffff…that’s a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. If you told me that $500 would essentially ensure that I’d make millions over my lifetime…that is arguably the best insurance policy I’d ever buy. Much better than being suckered into a whole life policy. I spend over $8000 traveling the country for pre-COVID interviews. You can afford a tiny fraction of that.

 

[Iamnew2]

The benefit of aways is (assuming you do well) it pretty much locks you in for an interview and PDs do often go with who they are comfortable with. So if you’re a lesser applicant I suppose it can help you. If you’re an average to above average applicant, likely less so unless you are getting the auditions at the elite programs.

Assuming no red flags, I’d say the OP is an average applicant as an MD. Slightly below-to average applicant as a DO. He/she’d be a below average applicant as a FMG/IMG.

With COVID, most interviews are virtual, and essentially free. Before COVID, I’d probably advise the OP to send out 45 applications as a USMD, 60 applications as a DO, and apply to every program as an FMG/IMG.

But with interviews essentially being free, heck…I’d apply to every program. Applications are cheap. $500? Pssffff…that’s a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. If you told me that $500 would essentially ensure that I’d make millions over my lifetime…that is arguably the best insurance policy I’d ever buy. Much better than being suckered into a whole life policy. I spend over $8000 traveling the country for pre-COVID interviews. You can afford a tiny fraction of that.

If there is one thing that has been beneficial from Covid, given the catastrophic impact it has had on the world, is that many things are virtual. I think interviews should remain virtual - no one chooses a program based on facilities. So having to spend thousands to fly to various programs makes no sense. I do hope they keep the virtual interviews!

 

[bestleonagg]

@ChelseaFC: No major red flags. I never failed my exams or classes in school. No LoA's. My concern is my board scores. I did many aways due to two reasons: 1) my school does not have a home institution hospital and our rotations are severely limited and being cancelled due to COVID-19 hence I applied via VSAS to even get rotations to graduate; 2) 2 of my 4 aways are places that I would rank highly, one of which is a top 5 program, but only had offered in October and January. In the ideal world, I would have done 2 aways during early July and August and focused on other specialties that may benefit me for residency

@PMR2008: I am a DO student

@j4pac I appreciate the viewpoint in the grand scheme of things. It appears I will be applying to as many programs considering the online nature of virtual interviews. I should be around $2000 purely for ERAS applications, which is a fraction of your $8000 travel fees

 

[Eurycea]

Just a PM&R PGY1 here- nothing to add to the above posters regarding # of PM&R apps, but regarding FM and IM/TY:

I really don't think you need to apply to that many FM programs, if any at all. While the cost to apply and interview with virtual interviews is minimal, interview days will often overlap and you'll have to triage which programs you need.

For prelim programs, I recommend applying to a ton of them. Last year was a bloodbath- lots of people I know applied to 30-40 prelims and TY's and only interviewed at 2 or 3. It makes you feel a little unsafe putting advanced PM&R programs at the top of your ranklist. I would apply very broadly and maybe even toss in a few prelim surgery applications, as those are usually less competitive.

 

[Iamnew2]

Just a PM&R PGY1 here- nothing to add to the above posters regarding # of PM&R apps, but regarding FM and IM/TY:

I really don't think you need to apply to that many FM programs, if any at all. While the cost to apply and interview with virtual interviews is minimal, interview days will often overlap and you'll have to triage which programs you need.

For prelim programs, I recommend applying to a ton of them. Last year was a bloodbath- lots of people I know applied to 30-40 prelims and TY's and only interviewed at 2 or 3. It makes you feel a little unsafe putting advanced PM&R programs at the top of your ranklist. I would apply very broadly and maybe even toss in a few prelim surgery applications, as those are usually less competitive.

Why are prelims so competitive these days?

 

[Prehealth1011]

Why are prelims so competitive these days?

Competitive speciality applicants (ophtho, derm, rads etc) want Prelim IM and many prelim surgery programs choose to wait till SOAP/Scramble to pick up high stats applicants these days

 

[Iamnew2]

Competitive speciality applicants (ophtho, derm, rads etc) want Prelim IM and many prelim surgery programs choose to wait till SOAP/Scramble to pick up high stats applicants these days

Umm they have always been somewhat competitive, even when I was applying to residency but I would imagine that there are more prelims each year as the number of advanced spots also increase. But that sucks though. applying to 30 or 40 spots and only interviewing at 2. wow!

 

[Chelsea FC]

Competitive speciality applicants (ophtho, derm, rads etc) want Prelim IM and many prelim surgery programs choose to wait till SOAP/Scramble to pick up high stats applicants these days

Competitive specialty applicants want nothing to do with prelims. They want TYs for a chill life, hence why they are going into derm,optho and rads in the first place.

 

[Prehealth1011]

Competitive specialty applicants want nothing to do with prelims. They want TYs for a chill life, hence why they are going into derm,optho and rads in the first place.

I agree. I know the order of preference is TY > Prelim IM > Prelim Surgery but Prelim IM still >>> Prelim surgery. Prelim surgery doesn't generally interview you until much later in the cycle and many of them just straight up wait for scramble. I was just saying this probably funnels more apps to prelim IMs these days. Last cycle i saw my friends panic applying to prelim IMs later in the cycle because they weren't hearing anything from TY/Surgery

 

[Iamnew2]

Competitive specialty applicants want nothing to do with prelims. They want TYs for a chill life, hence why they are going into derm,optho and rads in the first place.

There is nothing chill about Rads. Probably by far one of the most stressful specialties.

 

[Chelsea FC]

There is nothing chill about Rads. Probably by far one of the most stressful specialties.

It is a ROAD specialty for medical students. The reality of the day to day doesn’t take away from the fact people go into it for a chill life.

 

[bestleonagg]

When applying to prelim IM positions, is it recommended to write a new personal statement, keep my full draft targeted towards PM&R, or adjust my PM&R personal statement with a paragraph indicating how this prelim IM program is useful for PM&R?

 

[Chelsea FC]

When applying to prelim IM positions, is it recommended to write a new personal statement, keep my full draft targeted towards PM&R, or adjust my PM&R personal statement with a paragraph indicating how this prelim IM program is useful for PM&R?

prelim programs know ur not going into Medicine. Most people just use their PM&R Personal statement for prelims

 

[MavFab]

When I applied last year I just added a paragraph at the end saying why I would be a good TY intern.

 

[Eurycea]

When applying to prelim IM positions, is it recommended to write a new personal statement, keep my full draft targeted towards PM&R, or adjust my PM&R personal statement with a paragraph indicating how this prelim IM program is useful for PM&R?

I tweaked mine and added the paragraph at the end basically saying that I'd take the year seriously since IM knowledge is important to be a good rehab doc.

 

[bestleonagg]

I am feeling a bit discouraged as I only have 2 PM&R interviews so far. 0 pre-lim / TY. When is it a good idea to reach out to programs? Early November?

 

[Iamnew2]

I am feeling a bit discouraged as I only have 2 PM&R interviews so far. 0 pre-lim / TY. When is it a good idea to reach out to programs? Early November?

Now. Be bold. The worst thing that can happen is that they say no or ignore you. I was proactive. Reach out, email, etc. Better to do this now than to not have enough programs to rank.

 

[bestleonagg]

Now. Be bold. The worst thing that can happen is that they say no or ignore you. I was proactive. Reach out, email, etc. Better to do this now than to not have enough programs to rank.

Is it premature to reach out to programs that have yet to send interview invites?

 

[Iamnew2]

Is it premature to reach out to programs that have yet to send interview invites?

I did I think. Showing interest is never wrong in my opinion. Worst they can do is say no or ignore you. Or if they are like this person likes our program we'll give them a shot maybe you'll get yourself an interview.

 

[bestleonagg]

I did I think. Showing interest is never wrong in my opinion. Worst they can do is say no or ignore you. Or if they are like this person likes our program we'll give them a shot maybe you'll get yourself an interview.

Thank you for your input! I will contact the programs I have applied to and reach out

 

[Chelsea FC]

I am feeling a bit discouraged as I only have 2 PM&R interviews so far. 0 pre-lim / TY. When is it a good idea to reach out to programs? Early November?

Apps only out for 2 weeks and more than 50 programs havent sent out even the first wave of interviews. Still way too early to be worried.

 

[RangerBob]

I am feeling a bit discouraged as I only have 2 PM&R interviews so far. 0 pre-lim / TY. When is it a good idea to reach out to programs? Early November?

I pulled out my Match spreadsheet. I received a total of 14 invites when I applied. As of mid October, I'd received 0 PM&R invites. No pre-lim/TY invites either. In fact, I didn't get my first invites until Oct 30.

There are certainly some programs that give invites out early. And things may be different now than when I applied years ago, but you certainly have a lot of time to collect invites still.

With that said, at a certain point (maybe mid-November?) I did start calling programs to "see if my application is complete/if you require anything additional from me." And I did that through the end of the application season (many programs would tell me to check in after a few weeks if I hadn't heard anything.) A decent number of programs appreciated me calling and showing interest. Some were neutral. None seem particularly annoyed--I think they're used to people calling to check in.

 

[bestleonagg]

Thanks for both of your input @Chelsea FC and @RangerBob

 

[bestleonagg]

Hi everyone,
Thank you all for your advice. Another update is that I have been able to secure 13 PM&R interviews and 2 TY / 1 prelim IM interviews so far. I have been trying to reach out to prelim and TY programs via letters of interest, but I have not received any responses. What else should I do to help boost my prelim / TY interview count? What is your opinion about applying for prelim general surgery positions right now? I can reach out to my general surgeon preceptor from third year, and I feel confident he would be willing to write me a letter

 

[j4pac]

Typically the half way point for interviews is early November. You’ll probably get two more invites. I guess it doesn’t hurt to apply to Gen Surg for internship as a worst case scenario, but I’d definitely exhaust all other options.