Advice (Appeal)

[futuresurgeon00]

I need some help with an issue - my classmates and I are trying to appeal for an exam date. (Here, in my school we make our own exam schedule with the help of the departments that are affected) and the rules are that for a single subject the retakes for that course have to be a minimum of 7 days apart, no exams on weekends and the official exam session for summer ends July 6th. With this appeal, we went through all the proper channels (in terms of professors and heads of department) but are given useless answers and rebuffed for reasons that aren’t valid. So we appealed to the dean and basically got another useless statement - after being assured by our coordinator that it was just a technicality and it would be approved if we had all the signatures (which we did).

The appeal was for the following issue: The 1st whole body anatomy retake (written) date provided by the anatomy department was suggested as September 7, 2018. We wanted July 3, 2018. School officially begins (new year) on October 1st, while the retake session is from September 3 - September 30th. The second retake date they were providing is September 19th, 2018. Our final anatomy whole body exam (written) is on June 26th. We have a series of 5 final anatomy exams (written and oral) this semester, in the span of 3 months.

We first went to the head of 1st year anatomy, who basically claimed no responsibility and sent us to the head of the department, who essentially said they wanted no exams at all in the july/august period (Starting from July 1st) due to it being a summer month - even though we were asking for it in the actual exam period time.

We then took it to the next step when we received no proper response from the anatomy department, putting together a formal appeal. We were advised by our coordinator that we needed signatures from every member of the class, and it would be approved. When we went to submit the appeal (with a written letter, signatures from every member of the class, the screenshots of the email trail from the anatomy department, as well as the survey and responses from every class member), we were informed that it was merely a technicality and it would be approved again.

Today we got a response saying the following " Dear Students, I am sorry to inform you that the Dean has not approved your request for having the 1st retake on July 3rd 2018. According to the Dean the decision of the Head of the Anatomy Dept., prof. X, is crucial and final. Without their consent it is impossible to move the retake to any different date. The attached email correspondence between FS and N and prof. X leaves no doubt that the prof does not agree to the retake in July."

My issue is that we knew that the head of the department didn't want to approve the date, so that's why we were appealing to the dean, especially as our hopes were gotten up by the coordinator telling us it would be fine. The other students and I don't know how to proceed at this point. The anatomy head for 1st year is very volatile and vengeful and has taken out her anger on students in the past (verbally). As horrible as this sounds, we don't want her to take her anger out on us and any future exams/tests we may have.

I would really appreciate any advice provided. If any is able to help with this issue, I can also provide the appeal itself (along with the email trail).

Thank you.

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[futuresurgeon00]

I don't know if you're going to get much help here. Our school has no process similar to this, and it seems like outside resources won't really contribute anything.

I've sent it to a friend who is in education law (he specializes in appeals) in Canada, and to our student representatives, but honestly, just trying to feel if they're any options here.

 

[Vicviper]

I don't think you're going to have much luck unfortunately. If you push much further, you're going to establish much more ill will from the administration than you already have. That will hurt you later when you need help for them on other things. Is this the hill you're going to die on? I understand that you feel like you're being wronged, but sometimes in the moment, with a class full of people all saying Yeah and fighting on, mob mentality can take over, and you can lose perspective. I was class president, and we had one or two similar issues. One of which was our Microbiology Final that we were originally told was 100 Multiple choice questions, but then the instructor was hospitalized before finals, and was only able to write a 10 question written essay test. Needless to say most of the class did terribly. People were all up in arms and sending flurries of emails, and it did nothing but make the instructor and the department less willing to back down, partly because it gave them no choice, as it would have made them seem like they were weak and bowing to pressure. This is probably how your department is feeling right now. Even if you win this fight, what will the cost be, and how will it effect you later for those you've made into enemies?

What I would recommend is acknowledge that the July date doesn't work for the department, and see if there is possibly any earlier of a date, possibly finding a middle ground.

Lastly, and I don't mean to sound like a crotchety old man here, but I think you've got it pretty darn good. We didn't have any retakes for any written exams. Our test dates were all set at the beginning of the semester by instructors, and if they were nice, they'd check to see when some of the other big exams were and try to space them apart. Our finals week was a 5 day period with 10 final exams. One in the morning, and one in the afternoon for an entire week. It was hell, but we got through it.

I wish you the best of luck, and I don't intend to sound mean, but I think you're losing sight of the bigger picture here. I might suggest that you take your own advice that you have listed in your forum signature, and stop pushing before you do something you'll regret later.

 

[setdoc7]

Antagonizing administration is a slippery slope. Retakes? Please let me know what school this is. PM me if you do not wish to post.

 

[futuresurgeon00]

I don't think you're going to have much luck unfortunately. If you push much further, you're going to establish much more ill will from the administration than you already have. That will hurt you later when you need help for them on other things. Is this the hill you're going to die on? I understand that you feel like you're being wronged, but sometimes in the moment, with a class full of people all saying Yeah and fighting on, mob mentality can take over, and you can lose perspective. I was class president, and we had one or two similar issues. One of which was our Microbiology Final that we were originally told was 100 Multiple choice questions, but then the instructor was hospitalized before finals, and was only able to write a 10 question written essay test. Needless to say most of the class did terribly. People were all up in arms and sending flurries of emails, and it did nothing but make the instructor and the department less willing to back down, partly because it gave them no choice, as it would have made them seem like they were weak and bowing to pressure. This is probably how your department is feeling right now. Even if you win this fight, what will the cost be, and how will it effect you later for those you've made into enemies?

What I would recommend is acknowledge that the July date doesn't work for the department, and see if there is possibly any earlier of a date, possibly finding a middle ground.

Lastly, and I don't mean to sound like a crotchety old man here, but I think you've got it pretty darn good. We didn't have any retakes for any written exams. Our test dates were all set at the beginning of the semester by instructors, and if they were nice, they'd check to see when some of the other big exams were and try to space them apart. Our finals week was a 5 day period with 10 final exams. One in the morning, and one in the afternoon for an entire week. It was hell, but we got through it.

I wish you the best of luck, and I don't intend to sound mean, but I think you're losing sight of the bigger picture here. I might suggest that you take your own advice that you have listed in your forum signature, and stop pushing before you do something you'll regret later.

Thank you for the advice - it's always good getting different perspectives, which is why I posted it here. What you're saying definitely makes sense, and I already know that the administration - especially the Anatomy department at my school is extremely vengeful. We've accepted that we can't do anything, but sent a polite email thanking them for the consideration - they aren't the type to compromise either. With this school there are definitely a lot more battles in the future to fight.

The professor actually brought it up today to our lecture hall. He said "I know a few of you emailed about the exam date change (though it was all of us), this was very egotistical of you and you are very narrow minded to try to do this for yourselves." Oh well. We can't change anything, and what's done is done. We tried and we don't want to antagonize them further.

Our retakes are mainly because of the language barrier here / the fact that our school doesn't have people to double check the english so it ends up being a lot of misinterpretation and mistakes - and you can try to argue about your marks, but they don't accept that either.

 

[futuresurgeon00]

Also side note - when I mention retakes, it's similar to basically getting a failing grade for the first attempt and then getting another attempt with the new mark - similar to how it would be if you redid the course. It's not taking a retake without any consequences.

The first retake is done orally with a different professor than the one who teaches you, and the second retake is done with the director also orally.

 

[ncide]

Anyone who failed out of anatomy at my school got the boot out of school. Look, it requires concerted effort and study to learn. But we are doctors. A high standard is expected.

Those people who failed should study harder for each subsequent exam, and at our school, there were never retakes for exams with the exception of clinical practicals (like operative and fixed, even those were limited to 1 with a maximum of a C grade). You had to do better on written exams. Having a late "retake" is an inconvenience, but the professorial staff are already bending over backwards compared to other schools by providing written exam retakes. This is extraordinarily exceptional.

Part 1 of the boards are around the corner. If they can't get through the anatomy portion of that, then good luck to them, dentistry may not be for them. Having the failed students remediate an exam nearer their boards might be beneficial for them for the boards.

I may be playing devil's advocate, but those students need to learn the material. That's on their shoulders for not picking up their own slack. As millenials we get too much served on a silver platter, and when we are afforded second chances, we take a yard instead of the inch given to us.

 

[futuresurgeon00]

Anyone who failed out of anatomy at my school got the boot out of school. Look, it requires concerted effort and study to learn. But we are doctors. A high standard is expected.

Those people who failed should study harder for each subsequent exam, and at our school, there were never retakes for exams with the exception of clinical practicals (like operative and fixed, even those were limited to 1 with a maximum of a C grade). You had to do better on written exams. Having a late "retake" is an inconvenience, but the professorial staff are already bending over backwards compared to other schools by providing written exam retakes. This is extraordinarily exceptional.

Part 1 of the boards are around the corner. If they can't get through the anatomy portion of that, then good luck to them, dentistry may not be for them. Having the failed students remediate an exam nearer their boards might be beneficial for them for the boards.

I may be playing devil's advocate, but those students need to learn the material. That's on their shoulders for not picking up their own slack. As millenials we get too much served on a silver platter, and when we are afforded second chances, we take a yard instead of the inch given to us.

For anatomy - our retakes (2 retakes) is similar to the maximum grade concept - the maximum you can get is a 3.0 (60%). The clinicals and practicals don't have retakes here, it's the written ones, again as mentioned due to the language barrier and other reasons I'm not aware of.

Obviously I am completely aware that it's an absolute luxury getting retakes compared to other schools, and I absolutely agree with what you are saying at the end especially regarding the effort that the students put in. I go to school in Europe, and have a lot of international classmates, so for them boards are not necessary, and many come to medical and dental school here as they are receiving grants from their government to attend (they basically attend tuition free, can pay for a car, and get a living expense), so they don't care about their grades and are fine with just passing on retakes.

I would disagree with the "bending over backwards" part compared to other schools, as compared to basic necessities or things provided by other schools (open lab/lab hours, extra library hours/open library, course outlines, course schedules, powerpoints provided by professors, lectures provided, relatively decent cadavers, etc). However, I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[ncide]

For anatomy - our retakes (2 retakes) is similar to the maximum grade concept - the maximum you can get is a 3.0 (60%). The clinicals and practicals don't have retakes here, it's the written ones, again as mentioned due to the language barrier and other reasons I'm not aware of.

Obviously I am completely aware that it's an absolute luxury getting retakes compared to other schools, and I absolutely agree with what you are saying at the end especially regarding the effort that the students put in. I go to school in Europe, and have a lot of international classmates, so for them boards are not necessary, and many come to medical and dental school here as they are receiving grants from their government to attend (they basically attend tuition free, can pay for a car, and get a living expense), so they don't care about their grades and are fine with just passing on retakes.

I would disagree with the "bending over backwards" part compared to other schools, as compared to basic necessities or things provided by other schools (open lab/lab hours, extra library hours/open library, course outlines, course schedules, powerpoints provided by professors, lectures provided, relatively decent cadavers, etc). However, I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

You guys are already being given another chance at the exam for full points. What more are you to ask? This is already absurd.

Read your signature and move on.

 

[futuresurgeon00]

You guys are already being given another chance at the exam for full points. What more are you to ask? This is already absurd.

Read your signature and move on.

Clearly you did not properly read the other comments before posting as I have mentioned a) we're not fighting it b) about the "full points", c) @Vicviper already pointed out my signature and use the advice there. I was just responding back to you, not dragging on the appeal any further than it needed to be.

For anatomy - our retakes (2 retakes) is similar to the maximum grade concept - the maximum you can get is a 3.0 (60%).

We've accepted that we can't do anything, but sent a polite email thanking them for the consideration - they aren't the type to compromise either. With this school there are definitely a lot more battles in the future to fight.

I wish you the best of luck, and I don't intend to sound mean, but I think you're losing sight of the bigger picture here. I might suggest that you take your own advice that you have listed in your forum signature, and stop pushing before you do something you'll regret later.

 

[Faux]

Careful shaking the boat so soon into your first year.


How are you guys even talking about exam dates in September already? Your schedule seems weird unless I'm missing something. Did you just start D1 right now?