ACRO Webinar - How to find a job discussion

[RickyScott]

Penn state doc giving seminar on how to find a job.

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[seper]

Not a bad idea. Hershey is a competitive employer in the broader region, IMO.

 

[medgator]

Not a bad idea. Hershey is a competitive employer in the broader region, IMO.

Starting a brand new residency program where none is needed

 

[RickyScott]

Starting a brand new residency program where none is needed

Because he cares about helping residents get jobs by contributing to the oversupply.

 

[seper]

true.

 

[medgator]

Penn state doc giving seminar on how to find a job.

 

[fiji128]

The above

LOL, great advice.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Penn state doc giving seminar on how to find a job.

I mean... this is reasonable to me. The guy is like a year or two out of residency. It's a bit more in-depth than just 'how to find a job' (like contract negotiations). It's voluntary so people that have not finalized or are in the process of finalizing may benefit from listening.

Of course at the end of the day it's just one guy's opinion, and it happens to be a guy who was a co-author on that crap survey of the 'SDN interview spreadsheet' that got published in IJROBP with a 5-6% response rate, but it's not an unreasonable evaluation.

 

[medgator]

I mean... this is reasonable to me. The guy is like a year or two out of residency. It's a bit more in-depth than just 'how to find a job' (like contract negotiations). It's voluntary so people that have not finalized or are in the process of finalizing may benefit from listening.

Of course at the end of the day it's just one guy's opinion, and it happens to be a guy who was a co-author on that crap survey of the 'SDN interview spreadsheet' that got published in IJROBP with a 5-6% response rate, but it's not an unreasonable evaluation.

The same guy who thinks there are no actual physicians on SDN who can give meaningful advice regarding our specialty. Interested in attacking the source of an argument, rather than the argument itself. Sounds like KO Jr to me.

Not sure such a seminar would be full of any reasonable info considering that

 

[OTN]

The same guy who thinks there are no actual physicians on SDN who can give meaningful advice regarding our specialty. Sounds like KO Jr. Not sure such a seminar would be full of any reasonable info considering that

Agree- we here have been the canaries in the mineshaft for several years now. He's still acting as if no one on here is a practicing radonc and no valuable opinions or information comes out of here, which makes me question the value of his upcoming talk.

 

[fiji128]

If you're thinking about applying to a residency where folks are posting webinars about how to find a job after 9 years of training, that just about says it all.

 

[medgator]

If you're thinking about applying to a residency where folks are posting webinars about how to find a job after 9 years of training, that just about says it all.

Same exactly webinar probably could have been used back in 1996, although probably not as many on the web....

 

[PhotonBomb]

also I don't have the faintest idea why anyone has a problem with anyone giving advice (FREE) advice to anyone about the job hunt, lol.

comes down to my polarized politics point, me thinks.

 

[PhotonBomb]

Same exactly webinar probably could have been used back in 1996, although probably not as many on the web....

or 2011 or 2001 or 2015 or... you get the point

'how to hunt for a residency/fellowship/jobs' seminars have always existed and will always exist in literally every field of medicine.

come on people.

 

[medgator]

or 2011 or 2001 or 2015 or... you get the point

'how to hunt for a residency/fellowship/jobs' seminars have always existed and will always exist in literally every field of medicine.

come on people.

Are you really trying to be that ignorant? Let me know of another specialty that had employment surveys like this in the 90s....

The employment status of 1995 graduates from radiation oncology training programs in the United States - PubMed

This is the only employment survey for any specialty in which a 100% response rate was achieved. Upon graduation, a significant number of residents and fellows were either unemployed or involuntarily underemployed. The job market absorbed only a fraction of them at 6-8 months. Most graduates...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Or resident surveys like this:

 

[bluebubbles]

'how to hunt for a residency/fellowship/jobs' seminars have always existed and will always exist in literally every field of medicine.

come on people.

right, nothing's wrong.

oh wait, $200-250k? weren't doctors who never did a rad onc residency paid more to literally sit 50 feet from a LINAC and play Angry Birds just a couple years ago? but right, nothing's wrong.

just learn the secret job-finding handshake and you will find those jobs like a beagle sniffing for truffles. never mind that in specialties in actual demand, or careers outside of medicine on the upswing, recruiters and jobs find you.

 

[PhotonBomb]

right, nothing's wrong.

oh wait, $200-250k? weren't doctors who never did a rad onc residency paid more to literally sit 50 feet from a LINAC and play Angry Birds just a couple years ago? but right, nothing's wrong.

just learn the secret job-finding handshake and you will find those jobs like a beagle finding truffles. never mind that in specialties in actual demand, or careers outside of medicine on the upswing, recruiters and jobs find you.

see, this is the sad s*it I'm talking about. you hate to see it. some of you are polarized so much so that you see what you want to see.

nothing in my post said the job market was perfect or even great

but 'how to apply for a job' is like literally one of the basics of medical training, and these happen in every field. Including things that are 'hot' right now like IM, med onc etc etc etc. this is not a sign of a bad job market.

 

[PhotonBomb]

remember in the leadup to the 2012 election when the Rethugs would scram 'Benghazi' at any time, for no reason at all? it got real repetitive.

that's like Medgator and his personal boogeyman 'LIJ, Oklahoma, WVU, Arkansas' refrain or his other fave......'Olivier'

I hear if you say Olivier's name three times you get a CME.

team politics, man. ugh.

 

[bluebubbles]

see, this is the sad s*it I'm talking about. you hate to see it. some of you are polarized so much so that you see what you want to see.

nothing in my post said the job market was perfect or even great

but 'how to apply for a job' is like literally one of the basics of medical training, and these happen in every field. Including things that are 'hot' right now like IM, med onc etc etc etc. this is not a sign of a bad job market.

CONTEXT matters. This Twitter doc is giving his job market talk in the CONTEXT of downplaying SDN job market accounts, with the subtext that if you just knew how to find a job, you wouldn't be complaining on SDN.

It's not about the networking, smiles, and secret handshakes when the number of jobs is less or far less than then the number of job applicants. You're just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

To co-opt your politics analogy, polarized politics only exist in the context of a deep crisis, like income inequality, climate change, etc. No one fights if everything is hunky-dory.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Penn state doc giving seminar on how to find a job.

So someone that graduated from Fox Chase and landed a job in a remote area at a medical school without a residency is lecturing about finding a job? Huh

 

[thecarbonionangle]

remember in the leadup to the 2012 election when the Rethugs would scram 'Benghazi' at any time, for no reason at all? it got real repetitive.

that's like Medgator and his personal boogeyman 'LIJ, Oklahoma, WVU, Arkansas' refrain or his other fave......'Olivier'

I hear if you say Olivier's name three times you get a CME.

team politics, man. ugh.

Lots of funny business back then. FAST AND FURIOUS was also very important

 

[medgator]

remember in the leadup to the 2012 election when the Rethugs would scram 'Benghazi' at any time, for no reason at all? it got real repetitive.

that's like Medgator and his personal boogeyman 'LIJ, Oklahoma, WVU, Arkansas' refrain or his other fave......'Olivier'

I hear if you say Olivier's name three times you get a CME.

team politics, man. ugh.

Facts matter. Try again. BB nailed it

 

[RickyScott]

see, this is the sad s*it I'm talking about. you hate to see it. some of you are polarized so much so that you see what you want to see.

nothing in my post said the job market was perfect or even great

but 'how to apply for a job' is like literally one of the basics of medical training, and these happen in every field. Including things that are 'hot' right now like IM, med onc etc etc etc. this is not a sign of a bad job market.

This is not how to “apply”. It is how to find! That implies you have to look hard because jobs are scarce. As you say “hunt.” The whole notion of “how to look” is absurd in most specialties. Average IM doc had like 50 unsolicited offers in Merritt Hawkins surveys.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

So someone that graduated from Fox Chase and landed a job in a remote area at a medical school without a residency is lecturing about finding a job? Huh

This was my first thought. This guy is the expert job finder? Unless PSU is paying him 2 million, I doubt it.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I'm not sure why all the hate arguments against @PhotonBomb. I completely agree with him/her.

If Zaorsky starts his talk with "huck huck SDN is full of *****s it's ez to find a job" then sure, pile on.

Separate the person and the statements they have made from what they are currently talking on. Stop projecting every opinion that a person has had onto what they are currently talking about. Just b/c he called out SDN for being anonymous docs doesn't have any relation to his ability to discuss the process of finding a job. I think it's very reasonable to have a webinar like this.

Listen, I'm not a big fan of this guy either, but I'm really confused on the people just piling on as to why him doing this is a joke or otherwise bad for the specialty.

There are job finding seminars across all specialties. Besides the pedantic difference between 'a job' and 'the right job' I don't really see an issue with this.

So someone that graduated from Fox Chase and landed a job in a remote area at a medical school without a residency is lecturing about finding a job? Huh

Is this meant to denigrate the position that he has found? He's in Hershey which is a city in PA and maybe he wanted to stay in the PA area. He's done better for himself than any number of grads who cannot stay in their geographical preferred area. I think it's kinda dumb to attack a person for the job he has taken without knowing him or his preferences.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I just made some assumptions about the job he took.

1. Rural. Hershey is 14k people (Salina, KS is 47k). Harrisburg is 50k, 30 minutes away. 2 hours to Philly.
2. Academic salary.
3. No residency, so limited opportunity for upward mobility unless one opens.

These three things have to be seen as undesirable to the VAST majority of job hunters.

I think #3 is what this is likely actually about. "BTW, we're opening a residency and I'll be the PD. I'm relatable and care about residents. Come to PSU." Maybe I'm just too cynical, but this seems somewhat transparent.

 

[Haybrant]

I'm not sure why all the hate arguments against @PhotonBomb. I completely agree with him/her.

If Zaorsky starts his talk with "huck huck SDN is full of *****s it's ez to find a job" then sure, pile on.

Separate the person and the statements they have made from what they are currently talking on. Stop projecting every opinion that a person has had onto what they are currently talking about. Just b/c he called out SDN for being anonymous docs doesn't have any relation to his ability to discuss the process of finding a job. I think it's very reasonable to have a webinar like this.

Listen, I'm not a big fan of this guy either, but I'm really confused on the people just piling on as to why him doing this is a joke or otherwise bad for the specialty.

There are job finding seminars across all specialties. Besides the pedantic difference between 'a job' and 'the right job' I don't really see an issue with this.



Is this meant to denigrate the position that he has found? He's in Hershey which is a city in PA and maybe he wanted to stay in the PA area. He's done better for himself than any number of grads who cannot stay in their geographical preferred area. I think it's kinda dumb to attack a person for the job he has taken without knowing him or his preferences.

I don’t know the dude but unless he applied to like 75+ positions and went on 15 interviews he’s not qualified to speak. Maybe he did though then great. But without that experience it’s not thaat useful to hear from him

 

[PhotonBomb]

I mean the guy has been an absolute machine academically.

 

[DebtRising]

It’s not a good look for your field when it was published in 2015 that there is already an oversupply of physicians and then someone at a program trying to open a residency in the face of that is out there giving a talk on how to find a job.

as to the the photonbomb 2 universe comment - refute the supply demand paper, the specialty wide survey, or the economics of hypofractionation/apm, or reality of changesin supervision. If this is a field driven on data - what data has been published to refute any of the sdn views?

 

[evilbooyaa]

Eh I'm not a fan of crucifying him even before he speaks. He has created some resources on this in the past on a quick overview of researchgate: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315681876_Evaluating_a_practice_in_radiation_oncology

 

[medgator]

I'm not sure why all the hate arguments against @PhotonBomb. I completely agree with him/her.

If Zaorsky starts his talk with "huck huck SDN is full of *****s it's ez to find a job" then sure, pile on.

He doesn't think any actual physicians post on sdn. Read his tweet.

In reality, I've been board certified longer than he has and I practice in a more desirable place than Hershey PA (imo).

 

[evilbooyaa]

Sure and fry him for that, not the fact that he is giving a talk on how to get a job. To me these two things are essentially unrelated, unless he starts his talk with how dumb SDN is and how they are not real physicians.

I think SDN needs to understand that people's lives are not revolving around what SDN has to say, and we should not over-react to any person who ever says something that slights or insults SDN in anyway. Obviously people may disagree and that's OK (and thus the beauty of SDN) but just sayin'.

 

[PhotonBomb]

It’s not a good look for your field when it was published in 2015 that there is already an oversupply of physicians and then someone at a program trying to open a residency in the face of that is out there giving a talk on how to find a job.

as to the the photonbomb 2 universe comment - refute the supply demand paper, the specialty wide survey, or the economics of hypofractionation/apm, or reality of changesin supervision. If this is a field driven on data - what data has been published to refute any of the sdn views?

1) Why are you asking me to refute that stuff when that is besides the point and not even an argument I made?

2) why are you conjecturing that he is leading the charge to open a residency? such unsubstantiated BS. we as a group barely have a mild rumor, that maybe at some point PSU was or is trying to open a program, and all of a sudden it's this guy's fault and he's not allowed to talk about the job hunt? This place thrives on **** talk, my god, get a grip.

 

[PhotonBomb]

Sure and fry him for that, not the fact that he is giving a talk on how to get a job. To me these two things are essentially unrelated, unless he starts his talk with how dumb SDN is and how they are not real physicians.

I think SDN needs to understand that people's lives are not revolving around what SDN has to say, and we should not over-react to any person who ever says something that slights or insults SDN in anyway. Obviously people may disagree and that's OK (and thus the beauty of SDN) but just sayin'.

WELL SAID.

 

[PhotonBomb]

also when it comes to data the best data as said before is the Terry Wall data and MGMA. simple. bottom line. yet it's often ignored in favor of discussion of one off stories.

 

[medgator]

Sure and fry him for that, not the fact that he is giving a talk on how to get a job. To me these two things are essentially unrelated, unless he starts his talk with how dumb SDN is and how they are not real physicians.

I think SDN needs to understand that people's lives are not revolving around what SDN has to say, and we should not over-react to any person who ever says something that slights or insults SDN in anyway. Obviously people may disagree and that's OK (and thus the beauty of SDN) but just sayin'.

You're missing the bigger picture. It actually is a great example of him trying to discredit the source rather the argument and it seems to be common among some academic rad oncs.

He does have an inherent COI as he is part of an institution that wants to start a residency and therefore may want paint the job market in the best possible light during his talk to avoid scaring away residents in the future

 

[PhotonBomb]

You're missing the bigger picture. It actually is a great example of him trying to discredit the source rather the argument and it seems to be common in among academic rad oncs.

He does have an inherent COI as he is part of an institution that wants to start a residency and therefore may want paint the job market in the best possible light during his talk

you have no self-awareness, do you. you are doing literally the same thing.

 

[deleted774703]

Sure and fry him for that, not the fact that he is giving a talk on how to get a job. To me these two things are essentially unrelated, unless he starts his talk with how dumb SDN is and how they are not real physicians.

I think SDN needs to understand that people's lives are not revolving around what SDN has to say, and we should not over-react to any person who ever says something that slights or insults SDN in anyway. Obviously people may disagree and that's OK (and thus the beauty of SDN) but just sayin'.

I’m with you on this.

for all we know this could be an informative talk for residents

if it’s not then we move on

if he talks bad about SDN “malcontents” or opening a residency at Penn St (vomit I would never in my life live in Hershey) , then we know he is not an ally towards fixing the job maldistribution issue

 

[medgator]

you have no self-awareness, do you. you are doing literally the same thing.

Pot meet kettle. Who started it first? Have I ever accused rad onc twitter of not being actual physicians?

Are you even aware of his inherent COI? Assuming you are you, do you choose to ignore it?

 

[bluebubbles]

@PhotonBomb @evilbooyaa

I agree that ad hominem attacks are unwarranted. And I'll be the first to apologize that online and in this anonymous forum, I can be occasionally prickly and reactive. It is part of a character.

Anyways, perhaps a Christmas truce, 1914-style is in order. Trêve de Noël as our Parisian brethren say.

The spring will bring new info as PGY-5 job searches continue and wrap up, and the dust will settle regarding the 2020 Match. That'll clarify things. We can snipe at each other in the spring , too, when MS-3's are deciding on specialties and scheduling away rotations.

 

[PhotonBomb]

Pot meet kettle. Who started it first? Have I ever accused rad onc twitter of not being actual physicians?

Are you even aware of his inherent COI? Assuming you are you, do you choose to ignore it?

see point number 2 above in my 3 part point post.

Also, 'actual physicians' is a turn of phrase and is another way of saying talk to people in real life, lol. If you choose to take that as an attack that you are not a real physician (clearly you do because you dropped the 'I'm board certified card' (how embarassing), then that is your choice to make and is on you.

 

[medgator]

see point number 2 above in my 3 part point post.

Also, 'actual physicians' is a turn of phrase and is another way of saying talk to people in real life, lol. If you choose to take that as an attack that you are not a real physician (clearly you do because you dropped the 'I'm board certified card' (how embarassing), then that is your choice to make and is on you.

Keep up those mental gymnastics defending him. Meanwhile the rest of us will call a spade a spade

 

[PhotonBomb]

also, you haven't even seen his talk! Even if he DID have some conflict of interest because he's leading the charge to open a program and he sneakily and greedily wants as many students to come to the field as possible so he can fill his program with poor saps (you see how lol this sounds), then your theory would only make sense if his talk about how great things are and 'the water's great, come in!'

his talk is literally just about the job hunt. your theory is so paper thin, it is not a good look.

 

[evilbooyaa]

You're missing the bigger picture. It actually is a great example of him trying to discredit the source rather the argument and it seems to be common among some academic rad oncs.

He does have an inherent COI as he is part of an institution that wants to start a residency and therefore may want paint the job market in the best possible light during his talk to avoid scaring away residents in the future

You might be right that he may do all of these things, but why not actually LET him make that mistake before you crucify him for something that may or may not happen? I bet you that he says nothing about SDN in any sort of negative way during his talk. If he does, you can toss me back my pitchfork and I'll join your side. Deal?

I will also reflect that the reading into a potential residency program at Penn State has been discussed since it's initial inception like 3-4 years ago, and the fact that it is still being discussed without any (AFAIK) visible steps to actually happening makes me think it's more of a boogeyman than a rational fear at this point.

Again, if I'm proven wrong, then toss me back my pitchfork.

Let's avoid name-calling as much as we can. 'Worse than Trump' is 2019's 'Worse than Hitler' and is not going to fly.

Moving it into its own thread.

 

[medgator]

I will also reflect that the reading into a potential residency program at Penn State has been discussed since it's initial inception like 3-4 years ago, and the fact that it is still being discussed without any (AFAIK) visible steps to actually happening makes me think it's more of a boogeyman than a rational fear at this point.

Again, if I'm proven wrong, then toss me back my pitchfork.

March 2019 press announcement of new chair is good enough imo

Hershey Medical Center names new radiation oncology chair | Penn State University

The new Department of Radiation Oncology is developing a residency program, as well as training programs in medical physics, which will increase the number of health professionals to care for our own patients while addressing the shortage of these kind of experts across the nation.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I think it's fair to give this thing a chance. I don't know what his chops as a job hunter are (probably not much), but it is fine to hear him out.


That said.... If you gave me odds, I'd bet a lot on him being the PD of a new PSU residency within 3-5 years.

 

[evilbooyaa]

March 2019 press announcement of new chair is good enough imo

Hershey Medical Center names new radiation oncology chair | Penn State University

Hmm hadn't seen that. Fair enough I see your point about a goal of starting a residency program. I personally think that idea is incredibly unpopular politically currently, but they hired the guy from CaseWestern who has struggled to match for at least a year or few and potentially expanding their residency program, so maybe he's just a stubborn old goat. He'll find that less people are willing to move to Hershey than they are to Cleveland!

 

[OTN]

I think it’s reasonable to give “SDNers” some leeway to push back against any suggestion of a new residency program opening up, given how right we’ve been over the last 5 years about what residency expansion would do to our specialty as a whole. Additionally, I think it’s ok that we can view an ambitious newish attending, from a location rumored to be wanting to start an unneeded residency program, giving a lecture about how to find a job with a touch of suspicion.

However, it is also exactly correct that by prejudging him and the content of his talk we are committing the same crime against which we rally all the time.

I brought up the SDN comment earlier, because to be honest I see people who malign SDN in one of two ways: (This stems from my personal bias, in that 15 (holy $hit) years ago, when I was applying for residency, it was the only place one could get real, national, unfiltered information about any specialty. This may not be the case now, but that has always been my perspective, and that’s the point of view I try to provide. Someone mentioned ‘pen names’ rather than ‘anonymous’ earlier, and I think that’s a good way think about it.)

1. They don’t think SDN and other unofficial sources of information (Reddit included) are valuable/contain any truth about the job market. I disagreed as a medical student and I disagree now. Pen names allow one to speak truth to power and always have. Buyer beware, however, as with any new media.

2. They know it’s valuable but work to counteract a narrative which could be damaging to their/their institution’s goals. From a Machiavellian perspective, I can at least respect this position.

Either way, he’s the one who publicly displayed some level of disdain for value here, and I’m allowed to take issue with that, as I disagree with it. However, it is correct in that it’s not fair to prejudge the context of his talk based on this alone.

My bottom line would be this: He seems like the kind of academic radiation oncologist who will fight for our specialty and contribute in a very real way, which will give us the data we need to arm ourselves to continue to fight to prove our value in cancer care. He’s a very productive, smart, ambitious young attending who cares about his patients and fellow radiation oncologists. Not contributing to the ongoing residency expansion crisis would be a great way to prove this. I look forward to his talk and hope he has good solutions to help the amazing physicians we’ve recruited to this specialty participate in a meaningful way.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I rather hear a webinar on “How to find a good job in radiation oncology.” I don’t know the guy and definitely have my suspicions on a place that appears to be trying to establish a program soon.

Either way, I doubt he’ll give “game changing” advice on the over supply problem we’re experiencing. Just my opinion.

 

[seper]

did the webinar happen? what did they say?