ACGME Brings the Hammer Down on the AOA

[DocEspana]

I think they care.......... having disagreements on how policy and professional education is delineated does not demonstrate a non caring atittude. Maybe since I've been married for 8 years I understand this concept of two groups(people) seeing the same situation so differently.

Screaming, yelling, calling for their resignation will not solve the issue. A salve of understanding, calm discussions (consistenly) to maintain an open dialogue, using our student representatives, showing our ACGME preceptors/staff,etc a professional attitude will go much further.

Mark my words.... this will be a non issue. It will be resolved, an agreement will come together, cooler heads will prevail and "QUALIFIED" AOA residents will have access to ACGME fellowships. BUT you cannot expect the ACGME to make exceptions. We need to live up to their standards for acceptance ie - taking USMLE steps, publishing research, obtaining good grades, etc. It makes no sense to whine and cry about not obtaining an ACGME fellowship if you dont meet the standards that they have for their own residents. Dont use the D.O discrimination fall back......

Just want to add to the commentary that the aoa and acgme are meeting again in ~2 weeks. The AOA have very high hopes for it. Perhaps the ACGME also has quiet unstated hopes for it.

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[DocEspana]

What makes you think it won't be expanded? These programs aren't exactly old. They have come around in the last few years. Hell, ACGME-I wasn't even established at all until 2009.

Because its a barely funded program by the acgme that had two little bursts of activity and has been stagnant since. Plus its stated goal is to LOWER brain drain (physicians leaving their country to go to the US) and encourage people to stay in the ACGME-I country.

Now stated goal and functional reality may not coincide.

Edit: perhaps its unfair to say it won't. IDK what the ACGME will do. But I can say its extremely premature to be worried about that since my last inside info on that is its really more of a fun experiment that has been back burnered indefinitely than anything they'd want to expand. But opinions could change, have to always admit that.

 

[malformation]

I just feel bad for those DO students that matched this year planning to do an AOA internship year and then go directly into an advanced position at an ACGME program. They are probably screwed.

I am one of those resident who is doing DO TRI and doing ACGME next yr.
Your statement scared the Sxxt outta me

LOOK
Focused revision proposed effective date: July 1, 2015
So I thank god

Now Let's look at fellowship info
All required
Prerequisite clinical education for entry into ACGME accredited fellowship programs must meet the following qualifications:Be completed in an ACGME accredited residency program, an ACGME International accredited residency program, or an RCPSC

So it gives me wonder, I still technically will finish ACGME residency and only INTERN year is AOA. so Does ACGME fellowship shut me out because of INTERNSHIP yr??

Now that's a good question (very rare phenomenon on SDN). But unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that. Although I would be VERY surprised if that was the case.

True ... a DO who did an AOA IM residency could not be ABIM boarded in a subspecialty. However, in the past (and current case) , AOA-trained residents can petition the AOA to accept the ACGME Fellowship as "AOA equivalent" (via Resolution 56) and take the AOA fellowship board, thereby being board-certified through the AOBIM (and not ABIM)

With all due respect, that is actually incorrect. The core requirement for Resolution 56, is board certification by ABMS (e.g. ABIM). As stated previously, which you agree with, one cannot become ABIM (therefore, ABMS) board certified by going to AOA residency and then ACGME IM subspecialty fellowship even under current standards. Therefore, ineligible to apply for Resolution 56. So, my original statement, above (and now below) stands.

Primary source: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ing/Documents/resolution-56-certification.pdf

On a side note, I've heard of people doing what you have suggested and succeeding in the distant past (probably through using some kind of loophole) but this is VERY, VERY rare and has no practical applicability to vast majority of people. Therefore, in reality not much changes for IM subspecialty fellowship even if these new changes are adopted.

These changes have no practical affect on IM fellowship applicants. As it has always been the case, although currently one could technically enter ACGME fellowship through AOA residency, that person would NEVER be eligible for board certification for their subspecialty by the ABIM, since its core requirement for subspecialty board certification was first obtaining ABIM board certification in IM which one would be ineligible to sit for, unless one had completed an ACGME IM residency. Therefore, even though you are/were "allowed" to enter the ACGME fellowship through AOA residency you could never become board certified (i.e. waste of fellowship years). So, this will have minimal (to no) affect on IM residents (AOA or ACGME kind).

Again, comments above ONLY apply to IM subspecialty fellowships.

 

[group_theory]

With all due respect, that is actually incorrect. The core requirement for Resolution 56, is board certification by ABMS (e.g. ABIM). As stated previously, which you agree with, one cannot become ABIM (therefore, ABMS) board certified by going to AOA residency and then ACGME IM subspecialty fellowship even under current standards. Therefore, ineligible to apply for Resolution 56. So, my original statement, above (and now below) stands.

Primary source: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ing/Documents/resolution-56-certification.pdf

On a side note, I've heard of people doing what you have suggested and succeeding in the distant past (probably through using some kind of loophole) but this is VERY, VERY rare and has no practical applicability to vast majority of people. Therefore, in reality not much changes for IM subspecialty fellowship even if these new changes are adopted.

You're right - Resolution 56 deals with ABMS-boarded docs who for some reason wants to get AOA boarded.

But the AOA does provide a pathway to recognize ACGME training as AOA-equivalent.

Check this link out, titled "AOA Recognition of ACGME PGY2 and Beyond (Including Fellowship Recognition)"

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ges/recognition-of-acgme-pgy2-and-beyond.aspx

This is separate from Resolution 42 (but appears very similar). And it appears to be slightly different from Resolution 56.

Here's the AOBIM's guidelines for subspecialty certification. Item #2 deals with people trained in ACGME fellowship wishing to take the AOBIM subspecialty boards

http://www.aobim.org/WebPageStatic/PDF/SubDirectionsForSubmittingApplication.pdf


I actually know a few people who did this recently - did an AOA residency, ACGME fellowship, petitioned the AOA to recognize the fellowship, and took the AOA board for that subspecialty.

Under the new ACGME proposal, this avenue will effectively be shut (unless the applicant is an exceptionally qualified candidate)

 

[malformation]

You're right - Resolution 56 deals with ABMS-boarded docs who for some reason wants to get AOA boarded.

But the AOA does provide a pathway to recognize ACGME training as AOA-equivalent.

Check this link out, titled "AOA Recognition of ACGME PGY2 and Beyond (Including Fellowship Recognition)"

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ges/recognition-of-acgme-pgy2-and-beyond.aspx

This is separate from Resolution 42 (but appears very similar). And it appears to be slightly different from Resolution 56.

Here's the AOBIM's guidelines for subspecialty certification. Item #2 deals with people trained in ACGME fellowship wishing to take the AOBIM subspecialty boards

http://www.aobim.org/WebPageStatic/PDF/SubDirectionsForSubmittingApplication.pdf


I actually know a few people who did this recently - did an AOA residency, ACGME fellowship, petitioned the AOA to recognize the fellowship, and took the AOA board for that subspecialty.

Under the new ACGME proposal, this avenue will effectively be shut (unless the applicant is an exceptionally qualified candidate)

Even though your first link doesn't specifically mention ABMS certification on that page it does references Resolution 56 (at the bottom of the page) which requires ABMS certification (not currently possible for folks who have completed AOA IM residency) and your second link loops back to your first link. Again, there is no concrete evidence that this is still possible (at least based on published data), although I'm sure there is a loophole for everything (I, personally, wouldn't spend 2-3 extra years in fellowship for the possibility that AOA may or may not accept my training).

Either way, I think we both agree that even if this is possible, there is such a low number of applicants/candidates that utilize this pathway that there will probably be similar number of applicants that would qualify under the "exceptionally qualified" clause. Which btw still doesn't resolve the issue that they can't be boarded by ABIM (even if they are exceptionally qualified) and potential for AOBIM boarding is murky at best in those situations. Therefore, for all practical purposes, these proposed changes make very little difference for the vast majority of DOs interested in IM or IM subspecialties.

Key point/conclusion: Any student who is potentially interested in pursuing ACGME IM subspecialty fellowship should go to an ACGME residency irrespective of the outcome of the proposed changes. (I also think we both agree on this one).

 

[Textbookversion]

I am one of those resident who is doing DO TRI and doing ACGME next yr.
Your statement scared the Sxxt outta me

LOOK
Focused revision proposed effective date: July 1, 2015
So I thank god

Now Let's look at fellowship info
All required
Prerequisite clinical education for entry into ACGME accredited fellowship programs must meet the following qualifications:Be completed in an ACGME accredited residency program, an ACGME International accredited residency program, or an RCPSC

So it gives me wonder, I still technically will finish ACGME residency and only INTERN year is AOA. so Does ACGME fellowship shut me out because of INTERNSHIP yr??

Yes, it does, ergo the part about being screwed. I wouldn't panic too much yet though it's kind of out of your control. Current 4th years should do an ACGME internship if they are doing an ACGME residency, absolutely no question.

Also as a side note the person questioning whether people can do an ACGME fellowship after an AOA IM residency and get AOA board certification for their fellowship training... regardless of what legalese you want to hunt through it happens out here in the real world every single year. So there's clearly a way of doing it. And regardless of the prevalence of the practice, it doesn't really matter how many doc's do this it's still important to each and every one of them. Being able to go from general IM to a sub-specialty is often a dramatic QoL and $$ change so I'm sure for them it meant a lot.

Also, to the ortho guy, nobody cares dude you are set. Ortho pays bank, and most ortho fellowships aren't ACGME anyway and it's really easy to snag a fellowship somewhere because you represent $$$$ to your fellowship program.

 

[malformation]

Also as a side note the person questioning whether people can do an ACGME fellowship after an AOA IM residency and get AOA board certification for their fellowship training... regardless of what legalese you want to hunt through it happens out here in the real world every single year. So there's clearly a way of doing it. And regardless of the prevalence of the practice, it doesn't really matter how many doc's do this it's still important to each and every one of them. Being able to go from general IM to a sub-specialty is often a dramatic QoL and $$ change so I'm sure for them it meant a lot.

Spoiler alert.... Someone missed the whole point on SDN...

The number of people who use the above pathway every year (if it exists to begin with) is so small that PRACTICALLY this makes zero difference for the vast majority of people. Under the currently proposed changes, nothing really changes for "the few" except that they have to be "exceptionally qualified" and take the USMLE... Also it currently happens (if it happens at all) a LOT less than you think particularly in fellowships that result in "dramatic" QoL and $$ change (essentially Cards & GI, maybe Heme/once and CC). People from highly ranked ACGME places have hard enough time matching into those subspecialties (esp Cards and GI) that if you are coming from an AOA residency you have to indeed be "exceptionally qualified" to match under the current system anyways.

Also, if this is not legit (or within official AOA policy) then their certifications can come under question at any time, especially, let's say in front of a jury. So legal stuff matters! (Disclaimer: Not commenting on legitimacy of the above pathway just responding to the post above).

I'll be back in 6 months or so to post again... Peace!

 

[DrBowtie]

"What specifically was the ACGME unwilling to do to uphold a significant amount of osteopathic principles in the ACGME system?

The issue is one of breadth, not specificity. ACGME was not unwilling to recognize osteopathic manipulative medicine (OMM) as a practice focus or area of specialty; it was not unwilling to recognize osteopathic principles and their incorporation into OGME programs. Instead, there were issues when looking at the broader perspective of the continuum of osteopathic medical education, our training and our board certification. "

The ACGME didn't treat the whole patient

 

[Textbookversion]

The ACGME didn't treat the whole patient

Wow I'm amazed by the AOA's answer. The ACGME was actually willing to recognize OMM as a specialty? How much further backward do they expect them to bend? I mean really do they want the ACGME to require OMM training of everyone?

Because I'm really having a hard time understanding what was an issue. "Broader issues" is completely meaningless in this context when the AOA admits the ACGME was willing to cave on anything that could possibly be an issue.

 

[Textbookversion]

I'll be back in 6 months or so to post again... Peace!

Good because your response was asinine and completely non-responsive to my arguments.And your statement about a jury was ridiculously absurd and ill informed. Don't try and be an amateur lawyer.

 

[malformation]

Good because your response was asinine and completely non-responsive to my arguments.And your statement about a jury was ridiculously absurd and ill informed. Don't try and be an amateur lawyer.

I'll keep that in mind and kudos on your logical reasoning abilities and the brilliant job you did on being responsive to my arguments in your follow up post! Good Luck!

Now I'm really done!

 

[brnfabolous]

Yes, it does, ergo the part about being screwed. I wouldn't panic too much yet though it's kind of out of your control. Current 4th years should do an ACGME internship if they are doing an ACGME residency, absolutely no question.

Also as a side note the person questioning whether people can do an ACGME fellowship after an AOA IM residency and get AOA board certification for their fellowship training... regardless of what legalese you want to hunt through it happens out here in the real world every single year. So there's clearly a way of doing it. And regardless of the prevalence of the practice, it doesn't really matter how many doc's do this it's still important to each and every one of them. Being able to go from general IM to a sub-specialty is often a dramatic QoL and $$ change so I'm sure for them it meant a lot.

Also, to the ortho guy, nobody cares dude you are set. Ortho pays bank, and most ortho fellowships aren't ACGME anyway and it's really easy to snag a fellowship somewhere because you represent $$$$ to your fellowship program.

I want to know your credentials. How do you know that ACGME fellowship will shut me out?? I am sorry if you are med student but I am looking for answer from residents/attending level

 

[Textbookversion]

I want to know your credentials. How do you know that ACGME fellowship will shut me out?? I am sorry if you are med student but I am looking for answer from residents/attending level

[redacted for being overly harsh] You are a resident, you don't know what is going on... it's sort of a self refuting assumption. Obviously the people to talk to are those in a position to implement this change.

If you are looking for verification the best place to go to, other than reading the actual document yourself, would be to email someone at the ACGME (or maybe AOA, although the ACGME is obviously the authoritative source). I'm sure you can hunt around for contact info and find someone to talk to in the appropriate area of expertise.

 

[as1212559]

Edit: meant for other dude

 

[brnfabolous]

Rofl you think an attending or resident has any better idea of what is going on than I do by virtue of their greater medical expertise? You are kind of clueless. I mean that's a pretty dumb post. You are a resident, you don't know what is going on... it's sort of a self refuting assumption. Obviously the people to talk to are those in a position to implement this change.

If you are looking for verification the best place to go to, other than reading the actual document yourself, would be to email someone at the ACGME (or maybe AOA, although the ACGME is obviously the authoritative source). I'm sure you can hunt around for contact info and find someone to talk to in the appropriate area of expertise.

Relax i am sorry I was not trying to offend you
so until 2015, people can do TRI first year and move onto ACGME advanced position right?

 

[brnfabolous]

This forum has been quiet depressing to read and I have to go to night float
Anyway, Good luck to the DO student and residents. THis is crucial time that students implement big changes.

 

[buccsmf1]

Relax i am sorry I was not trying to offend you
so until 2015, people can do TRI first year and move onto ACGME advanced position right?

I also need this answered.... There is the possibility of doing an AOA TRI if I match allo gas advanced. I would start my internship july 1 2014, and the actual residency july 1 2015.

In the article they mention july 1 2015... Does this apply to starting your internship, or your actual residency?

Wtf is with this curveball 3 weeks before eras is due

 

[Textbookversion]

I also need this answered.... There is the possibility of doing an AOA TRI if I match allo gas advanced. I would start my internship july 1 2014, and the actual residency july 1 2015.

In the article they mention july 1 2015... Does this apply to starting your internship, or your actual residency?

Wtf is with this curveball 3 weeks before eras is due

I would do everything you can to get an ACGME internship... even if you have to snag a prelim surgery. Emailing people at the AOA and ACGME for further clarification and to express your frustration seems wise.

I have no idea when this kicks in, but once it does you'd be hosed both for starting residency and for pursuing fellowships after if you do an AOA TRI. I mean it is pretty unclear what it means by the date they implement it, if does turn out to be July 1st 2015. Does it apply to everyone starting residency on that date, or just those matching after that date? Hmm.

Either way it seems like a really really bad idea to do an AOA internship now, when you can easily get a surgery prelim at the very least. Even if this doesn't get implemented for a while, if you want to do a fellowship after gas it sounds like you'd have a hard time pulling that off w/an AOA internship.

 

[cliquesh]

I would do everything you can to get an ACGME internship... even if you have to snag a prelim surgery. Emailing people at the AOA and ACGME for further clarification and to express your frustration seems wise.

I have no idea when this kicks in, but once it does you'd be hosed both for starting residency and for pursuing fellowships after if you do an AOA TRI. I mean it is pretty unclear what it means by the date they implement it, if does turn out to be July 1st 2015. Does it apply to everyone starting residency on that date, or just those matching after that date? Hmm.

Either way it seems like a really really bad idea to do an AOA internship now, when you can easily get a surgery prelim at the very least. Even if this doesn't get implemented for a while, if you want to do a fellowship after gas it sounds like you'd have a hard time pulling that off w/an AOA internship.

I second this. You'll probably get a categorical spot if you want one.

 

[Bacchus]

Sorry if this was explained. I'm confused.

I entered an AOA family medicine residency dually accredited and am a PGY-1 for 2013-2014. How does this affect me? Does the dual certification status protect me or will I not be able to apply for ACGME fellowships in 2016 if I want to? (Geri, palliative, hospice, sports med)

 

[THH]

Sorry if this was explained. I'm confused.

I entered an AOA family medicine residency dually accredited and am a PGY-1 for 2013-2014. How does this affect me? Does the dual certification status protect me or will I not be able to apply for ACGME fellowships in 2016 if I want to? (Geri, palliative, hospice, sports med)

Bacchus, you should be protected. You will be attending an ACGME accredited program for every year of your training and thus will be eligible for ACGME fellowship regardless of how this ****show ends up going.

 

[DocEspana]

Bacchus, you should be protected. You will be attending an ACGME accredited program for every year of your training and thus will be eligible for ACGME fellowship regardless of how this ****show ends up going.

Seconded.

 

[IMDoc607]

I'm glad I'm already in fellowship but I think this is what's needed from the acgme. The AOA really has no choice but to accept the acgme s conditions. No one in their right mind would sit back and allow this to occur......not even the *****s in the aoa.

 

[DrBowtie]

Just want to add to the commentary that the aoa and acgme are meeting again in ~2 weeks. The AOA have very high hopes for it. Perhaps the ACGME also has quiet unstated hopes for it.

The more "updates" and "information" that they post, the more they hurt themselves. Sure doesn't sound like they really want to play nice with ACGME.

 

[Imnoglbln]

These past weeks have shown that the AOA only concerns itself with preserving their own power and unelected government, not their student body. I am worrying about how far the hardliners are willing to go.

 

[Trogghunter]

These past weeks have shown that the AOA only concerns itself with preserving their own power and unelected government, not their student body. I am worrying about how far the hardliners are willing to go.

If they're anything like our legislative branch, I think that we are screwed.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using SDN Mobile

 

[DocEspana]

I'm glad I'm already in fellowship but I think this is what's needed from the acgme. The AOA really has no choice but to accept the acgme s conditions. No one in their right mind would sit back and allow this to occur......not even the *****s in the aoa.

Idk if ice said it before, but I think the acgme is right in doing it, if I am being unbiased. Their program should be the way into their fellowship. Now with that said, I am biased and I hope the more altruistic outcome occurs.

 

[IMDoc607]

Idk if ice said it before, but I think the acgme is right in doing it, if I am being unbiased. Their program should be the way into their fellowship. Now with that said, I am biased and I hope the more altruistic outcome occurs.

I agree with you. Im pretty confident the AOA will adopt the acgme's terms as a whole with some changes. The DO's cannot allow this to happen because it will destroy the osteopathic profession if you impose such limitations.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Even though your first link doesn't specifically mention ABMS certification on that page it does references Resolution 56 (at the bottom of the page) which requires ABMS certification (not currently possible for folks who have completed AOA IM residency) and your second link loops back to your first link. Again, there is no concrete evidence that this is still possible (at least based on published data), although I'm sure there is a loophole for everything (I, personally, wouldn't spend 2-3 extra years in fellowship for the possibility that AOA may or may not accept my training).

Either way, I think we both agree that even if this is possible, there is such a low number of applicants/candidates that utilize this pathway that there will probably be similar number of applicants that would qualify under the "exceptionally qualified" clause. Which btw still doesn't resolve the issue that they can't be boarded by ABIM (even if they are exceptionally qualified) and potential for AOBIM boarding is murky at best in those situations. Therefore, for all practical purposes, these proposed changes make very little difference for the vast majority of DOs interested in IM or IM subspecialties.

Key point/conclusion: Any student who is potentially interested in pursuing ACGME IM subspecialty fellowship should go to an ACGME residency irrespective of the outcome of the proposed changes. (I also think we both agree on this one).

My understanding is that the number of AOA applicants in the past who successfully did this was very tiny...they were mostly aiming at ACGME programs that didn't usually fill in subspecialties that were not competitive (endo seemed to be most common). Sometimes the PDs of these programs would bring in an AOA trained applicant just to fill for a given year if they didn't think they were going to otherwise.

It was not an especially viable pathway, and if you were interested in matching competitive subspecialties your chances were very slim (read: essentially nil) indeed.

(I would like to note that this does indeed work in the other direction...you can complete an ACGME residency and match AOA fellowships. I saw quite a bit of this happening at my home program.)

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I also need this answered.... There is the possibility of doing an AOA TRI if I match allo gas advanced. I would start my internship july 1 2014, and the actual residency july 1 2015.

In the article they mention july 1 2015... Does this apply to starting your internship, or your actual residency?

Wtf is with this curveball 3 weeks before eras is due

Not to be pedantic, but I'd be very careful with this given that many internships and residencies do not actually start on July 1...if the ACGME is strict with the dates and you somehow match a program that starts after July 1, you could get hosed.

 

[IMDoc607]

This needed to be done by the acgme. It will all turn out ok and the osteopathic profession will be forced to change. If it doesn't, it will become obsolete.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This needed to be done by the acgme. It will all turn out ok and the osteopathic profession will be forced to change. If it doesn't, it will become obsolete.

I'm beating that the new meeting in 10 days will fix things.

 

[DrBowtie]

I'm beating that the new meeting in 10 days will fix things.

How? Everything looks like the ACGME pretty much gave the AOA carte blanche and still couldn't reach a deal.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

How? Everything looks like the ACGME pretty much gave the AOA carte blanche and still couldn't reach a deal.

I'm pretty sure the ACGME showed enough muscle to make them not only worry a bit, but more that their own constituents, DOs and future DOs hate them.

 

[NurWollen]

I'm pretty sure the ACGME showed enough muscle to make them not only worry a bit, but more that their own constituents, DOs and future DOs hate them.

I hope you're right. The problem is, remember the AOA leaders themselves were on board. Wasn't it the specialty boards (more specifically ACOFP) and maybe some of the states associations that put pressure on AACOM and the AOA to to sink it? And why has changed for them that they would let it through now.

I'm still optimistic though. Lets keep our fingers crossed.

 

[Imnoglbln]

If you've dealt with AOA officials you know they won't give in. They truly believe they're the "better" doctors.. it's a bunch of OBYGN/FM docs that did their residencies next to a river in Kentucky. They are not going to back down until their back is completely to the wall, which will take many more "policy updates."

Not trying to be pessimistic here but from my experience with the AOA I find it hard not to be.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I hope you're right. The problem is, remember the AOA leaders themselves were on board. Wasn't it the specialty boards (more specifically ACOFP) and maybe some of the states associations that put pressure on AACOM and the AOA to to sink it? And why has changed for them that they would let it through now.

I'm still optimistic though. Lets keep our fingers crossed.

I'm pretty sure they didn't realize that DO students would crucify them for their failure in this. They really didn't expect that in my opinion.

 

[Siggy]

If you've dealt with AOA officials you know they won't give in. They truly believe they're the "better" doctors.. it's a bunch of OBYGN/FM docs that did their residencies next to a river in Kentucky. They are not going to back down until their back is completely to the wall, which will take many more "policy updates."

Not trying to be pessimistic here but from my experience with the AOA I find it hard not to be.

 

[Textbookversion]

I'm pretty sure they didn't realize that DO students would crucify them for their failure in this. They really didn't expect that in my opinion.

I don't really see why they'd care what DO students think.

 

[Silent Cool]

If all DO students had to take USMLE Step I the passing rate would be abysmal (probably around 65%) and schools will be stuck with many students who can't graduate.
Current DO student who take USMLE put in a lot of work on their own and are very driven to pass the USMLE (you all know who those students are in your classes). DO schools would have to change their curriculum in order to prepare their students to pass UMSLE at the same rate as current MD students do.

Then they shouldn't be physicians. The USMLE is the gold standard.

 

[NurWollen]

Perfect.

 

[Bacchus]

I know ACOFP was mentioned a few posts above. I was at the national conference this past March. The amount of osteopathic circle jerks going on was nothing less than infinite so I very much believe (and to some extent know) they're not going to give up "power" or be the easiest to work with.

Also, its hard to break into these organizations. At my level now, PGY-1, there is no possible way for me to get a leadership position.

 

[darklabel]

I know ACOFP was mentioned a few posts above. I was at the national conference this past March. The amount of osteopathic circle jerks going on was nothing less than infinite so I very much believe (and to some extent know) they're not going to give up "power" or be the easiest to work with.

Also, its hard to break into these organizations. At my level now, PGY-1, there is no possible way for me to get a leadership position.

Pullin for you and DocEspana to be far up in the AOA, maybe some real change can occur if more DO students try to break into the AOA instead of runnin for the hills towards the ACGME (But I don't blame them).

 

[Silent Cool]

Pullin for you and DocEspana to be far up in the AOA, maybe some real change can occur if more DO students try to break into the AOA instead of runnin for the hills towards the ACGME (But I don't blame them).

Here is the 'real change' that should take place:

1) Abolish the AOA
2) Convert all DO schools to MD schools
3) Offer OMM as an elective at said schools

Done.

See how easy that is?

Someone, please, send this to the AOA......

 

[SuhStomp]

If you've dealt with AOA officials you know they won't give in. They truly believe they're the "better" doctors.. it's a bunch of OBYGN/FM docs that did their residencies next to a river in Kentucky. They are not going to back down until their back is completely to the wall, which will take many more "policy updates."

Not trying to be pessimistic here but from my experience with the AOA I find it hard not to be.

That's a question I would like to have asked to them directly. Do you (seriously) believe that being a DO makes you a better doctor?

Some follow ups would be: do you (seriously) believe that MD's do not take into account the whole person? Do you seriously think that cranial sutures are movable joints in an adult? (I haven't done cranial yet, but keeping an open mind and hoping that's not what they actually teach).

 

[QualityProcess]

Am I the only one that is totally lost reading about this stuff?

 

[sylvanthus]

Pullin for you and DocEspana to be far up in the AOA, maybe some real change can occur if more DO students try to break into the AOA instead of runnin for the hills towards the ACGME (But I don't blame them).

Some of us have tried to break into the AOA, they take their own like-minded people and relatives over all. I applied for several boards, bureaus, etc over a couple years and just bloody gave up after rejection after rejection. Why I am more involved with the AMA and ACEP/EMRA. There are definitely those of us who have tried.

 

[NurWollen]

Some of us have tried to break into the AOA, they take their own like-minded people and relatives over all. I applied for several boards, bureaus, etc over a couple years and just bloody gave up after rejection after rejection. Why I am more involved with the AMA and ACEP/EMRA. There are definitely those of us who have tried.

Interesting... How do they know if you tow the party line or not? I mean, unless they know your SDN handle wouldn't they assume you're just another DO? Or do they look for the guy who was his class SOMA president, family medicine club, etc.?

 

[sylvanthus]

Interesting... How do they know if you tow the party line or not? I mean, unless they know your SDN handle wouldn't they assume you're just another DO? Or do they look for the guy who was his class SOMA president, family medicine club, etc.?

My CV shows involvement on the MD side of things. Guessing that played a role.

 

[se20001984]

everyone do your part and cancel your membership to the AOA, they do not represent us

do not worry about backlash, in the end half of us wont have jobs with the way things go,