accessory navicular / kidner / etc.

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

FootKeeper

New Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Is there a particular institution / pod(s) really well known for doing accessory naviculars, and/or is known to see a very high volume of cases (hence expertise)? Nationally (US)? In California? I would even extend this to foot & ankle orthos, if people know.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Is there a particular institution / pod(s) really well known for doing accessory naviculars, and/or is known to see a very high volume of cases (hence expertise)? Nationally (US)? In California? I would even extend this to foot & ankle orthos, if people know.

Most doctors perform a modified Kidner and don't perform the procedure exactly as originally described. However, I know of no particular doctor of any kind who specializes in this procedure. If he/she exists, I am not aware of that person.

I'm not sure anyone could make a living specializing in this procedure, unless it was being over utilized. Every well trained foot and ankle surgeon I know is more than competent to perform this procedure. It is not one of the more complicated procedures in foot and ankle surgery.
 
Most doctors perform a modified Kidner and don't perform the procedure exactly as originally described. However, I know of no particular doctor of any kind who specializes in this procedure. If he/she exists, I am not aware of that person.

I'm not sure anyone could make a living specializing in this procedure, unless it was being over utilized. Every well trained foot and ankle surgeon I know is more than competent to perform this procedure. It is not one of the more complicated procedures in foot and ankle surgery.

The Wookie says:

Very wisely stated, Master.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Thank you for your response.

I have heard the same, but if you look on the patient end of the spectrum, there are still reports of this procedure being done incorrectly or with poor results by licensed pods and orthos. No procedure is 100% -- but go do a search on this board about kidner procedures and you will even find anecdotes of people screwing up. So even if it is routine, there are variations in anatomy and things that can occur during surgery that you wouldn't want someone who has done 3 kidner's (or modified kidner's) in their career to deal with.

I understand that nobody could make a living off of just doing a kidner /modified kidner, but I imagine that there are pods/orthos who do a much larger volume of accessory naviculars than others. For example, to analogize a totally different area of medicine, in Opthalmology, you might be hard-pressed to find a surgeon who only works on tear ducts, but you may find one who does more tear-duct work than the vast majority of his colleagues. That's the guy you would want to go to (most of the time). There's usually a reason he gets all those referrals.

If you search around, you will find some people doing research on variations of the procedure. Those people would be more likely to be more familiar with the procedure, since those who are doing studies and research often have a strong interest in what they are studying and would need the patient numbers to put together a paper.

Thank you again for your response.
 
Thank you for your response.

I have heard the same, but if you look on the patient end of the spectrum, there are still reports of this procedure being done incorrectly or with poor results by licensed pods and orthos. No procedure is 100% -- but go do a search on this board about kidner procedures and you will even find anecdotes of people screwing up. So even if it is routine, there are variations in anatomy and things that can occur during surgery that you wouldn't want someone who has done 3 kidner's (or modified kidner's) in their career to deal with.

I understand that nobody could make a living off of just doing a kidner /modified kidner, but I imagine that there are pods/orthos who do a much larger volume of accessory naviculars than others. For example, to analogize a totally different area of medicine, in Opthalmology, you might be hard-pressed to find a surgeon who only works on tear ducts, but you may find one who does more tear-duct work than the vast majority of his colleagues. That's the guy you would want to go to (most of the time). There's usually a reason he gets all those referrals.

If you search around, you will find some people doing research on variations of the procedure. Those people would be more likely to be more familiar with the procedure, since those who are doing studies and research often have a strong interest in what they are studying and would need the patient numbers to put together a paper.

Thank you again for your response.

I understand your thoughts but don't fully agree. Yes, it's intuitively obvious that those with more experience may be more proficient at a procedure. But I know doctors with a LOT of experience with a procedure, but wouldn't let them go near me with a scalpel. Sometimes, yes I said sometimes, there are doctors who are a "one trick pony". These docs are experienced, but not necessarily good at a particular procedure. They do a lot of them because you often see only what you're looking for. Many times these docs over utilize a procedure and make the patient fit the criteria for the procedure and not the procedure fitting the criteria.

There will be butchers in any profession, and there will always be complications regardless of surgeon skill and experience. Any surgeon who hasn't had a complication or inferior result, simply has not performed enough surgery.

Once again, a modified Kidner is not one of the more complicated procedures in our armamentarium, though experience can be beneficial. Just because you haven't done 20 this year or last year doesn't mean you can't perform the procedure well. There are certain surgical principles that pertain to many surgical procedures and you simply don't forget, even if you haven't done one in a week, a month, etc. It's almost like riding a bike. Almost.

On the other hand very complicated and technically difficult procedures such as a total ankle replacement do require experience and repetition to be competent, due to a high learning curve.

Two well known TAR companies approached me and my associate to use their systems. However, as busy as our practice is, I don't believe I would have that many patients requiring the procedure and would probably not receive referrals from other docs to do the case for them. Therefore, I didn't think our low volume of patients requiring the procedure justified performing this "once in a while". If we start getting inquiries from other docs and we think our volume will increase, then I will start performing TARs. But at this time it would only feed my ego and not be in the best interest of the patient.
 
Thank you for your response.

I see what you are saying about incompetent surgeons doing high volume but still being incompetent. I think that this can especially happen in institution-based medicine, where you have a powerful institution giving the prestige to a professor who gets his referrals based on the name of his institution rather than his results. Also doctors at big institutions are so much more protected than outsiders, so the consequences of their poor skillset are delayed, or erased, in some cases.

Sometimes those attendings have their residents do so much of their surgeries they don't even have the sharp surgical skills they ought to. I know of a very big, famous institution where I live where this certainly has happened and continues to happen.

If you were going to have a modified kidner done on your accessary navicular, what would your criteria be for the potential surgeon, and how would you go about finding out whether he or she meets that criteria? What background research would you do and what questions would you ask?

I can think of

How many do you do a year? Have you done in your career?

What is your success rate -- defined as patients seeing return to prior-to-symptoms activity after long-term follow up (and without recurrence of symptoms)?

What percent of your patients are worse after surgery (in long-term follow up)? What percentage see no improvement?

Of course, this is contingent upon an honest physician.

I think that although this is referred to as a "simple" procedure, it's important to remember that like anything in the foot world, one mistake and you are crippling a person for life, or, if that is an exaggeration, you can call it permanently damaging a person's quality of life, as anyone who has had foot problems can attest. In that sense, there's a commonality with Opthalmology. Even in many simple, straightforward Opthalmology procedures, you can still permanently damage someone's vision. It only takes one misstep.


Thank you again for all your feedback. And if you know anyone who does a kickass modified kidner in Southern California, please let me know.
 
The Wookie says:

Please contact Jedi Master Stephen Silvani. I believe he is in the quadrant you are seeking and if he is not, he has a wide network in that general star system.
 
Thank you for your response.

I think that although this is referred to as a "simple" procedure, it's important to remember that like anything in the foot world, one mistake and you are crippling a person for life, or, if that is an exaggeration, you can call it permanently damaging a person's quality of life, as anyone who has had foot problems can attest.

I don't believe I ever said the Kidner/modified Kidner was a "simple" procedue. I believe what I did say was that it is not one of the more complicated procedures we do, but I don't believe that equates with "simple".
 
Thank you for your response.

I see what you are saying about incompetent surgeons doing high volume but still being incompetent. I think that this can especially happen in institution-based medicine, where you have a powerful institution giving the prestige to a professor who gets his referrals based on the name of his institution rather than his results. Also doctors at big institutions are so much more protected than outsiders, so the consequences of their poor skillset are delayed, or erased, in some cases.

Sometimes those attendings have their residents do so much of their surgeries they don't even have the sharp surgical skills they ought to. I know of a very big, famous institution where I live where this certainly has happened and continues to happen.

If you were going to have a modified kidner done on your accessary navicular, what would your criteria be for the potential surgeon, and how would you go about finding out whether he or she meets that criteria? What background research would you do and what questions would you ask?

I can think of

How many do you do a year? Have you done in your career?

What is your success rate -- defined as patients seeing return to prior-to-symptoms activity after long-term follow up (and without recurrence of symptoms)?

What percent of your patients are worse after surgery (in long-term follow up)? What percentage see no improvement?

Of course, this is contingent upon an honest physician.

I think that although this is referred to as a "simple" procedure, it's important to remember that like anything in the foot world, one mistake and you are crippling a person for life, or, if that is an exaggeration, you can call it permanently damaging a person's quality of life, as anyone who has had foot problems can attest. In that sense, there's a commonality with Opthalmology. Even in many simple, straightforward Opthalmology procedures, you can still permanently damage someone's vision. It only takes one misstep.


Thank you again for all your feedback. And if you know anyone who does a kickass modified kidner in Southern California, please let me know.


Several points. First, once again I'm not sure I agree with your comments regarding surgeons/doctors at large institutions. In my experience, these doctors have more people to answer to, there are committees reviewing complications, morbidity/mortality, etc., and the institution has a reputation to maintain. Most major institutions hire docs who have a proven track record and an excellent reputation. There are always exceptions, but in my experience this is the rule, not the exception.

I also don't agree about your comments that some doctors may be "rusty" (my word, not yours, but you said their skills may not be as sharp). I believe just the opposite in the vast majority of cases. I am involved with resident training and have been the majority of my career. Teaching and working with residents keeps me sharp and enhances my skills. When working with residents, it is important to keep up to date on new procedures, new theories, new technologies, etc. When a resident is scrubbed on a case with me, I'm not in the corner playing with my iPhone. I'm in the trench with my hands ready to take over at any time I feel necessary. It's basically like me doing the surgery with the resident's hands. I am there to advise, discuss and direct the procedure. If I'm "rusty", mistakes happen. So after all these years working with residents, I believe they have "upped" my game. They're sharp and skilled, and I have to maintain my knowledge and skills to maintain their respect and confidence.

Patients sometimes ask me "how many" of these have you done. I have never counted how many I've done regarding any procedure. I simply tell the patient I've done enough to feel confident enough to perform the procedure successfully, or I wouldn't perform the case.

Once again, complications can occur in the hands of the best surgeon, and no surgeon has a 100% success rate. I believe that any well trained ABPS certified surgeon can perform the Kidner/modified Kidner successfully, whether he/she has done a "lot" recently or not. I'm sure the doctor was exposed to this procedure many times during training, even if he/she hasn't done as many as the next guy. It really is quality, not quantity.

That being said, our Master universe traveller Wookie gave you the name of Dr. Silvani who I would concur is an excellent choice.
 
I appreciate your input. I'm not as versed in the foot world as I am in other parts of medicine. And I do know that there are excellent, excellent physicians at big institutions. I've been on the patient end of several, and I know other great institutional physicians personally.

But there are horror stories too -- and big institutions are more capable than unprotected private practitioners of covering up for their physicians. People are very afraid of speaking out against well positioned institutional physicians because of potential career and reputational repercussions.

And while your institution may be benevolent, as may you, there are a number of places that use residents to bang out as many surgeries as possible with a lot less attention by the attending than patients would ever imagine. I'm not making this stuff up, and I won't name names -- maybe the podiatry world is better bred than other parts of medicine.

In so many procedures it takes one millimeter error to produce a horrifying result. I just don't know if I can totally agree with your position on guiding residents making a much better surgeon. I can understand how it can make you a better surgeon, but you would still have to be doing a ton of your own work to stay sharp.

A physician who won't tell me how many he does of a procedure a year, or has done in his career (obviously it can be an approximation), sets off a red flag in my mind. Do you do one a year? Ten? Fifty? What percent of your practice is this type of work? If I cannot get a ballpark out of the person -- I get very worried. Doctors know their numbers, approximately. You don't blank on that kind of stuff, even if you can't say "I did 13 last year, 11 the year before, 79 in my career" -- you know you do roughly 10 a year, over 50 a year.. ballparks.

You could argue that putting an IV in is pretty uncomplicated. It certainly is compared to most surgical procedures. But.. you get that nurse that hasn't done it for a year, or six months.. versus the one who is doing three a day -- and I'd wager that most of the time, there's going to be a difference. Having your hands in there and doing it yourself over and over keeps you fresh. Simple things that an RN does everyday, but a very talented surgeon only did back in medical school, are much more likely to be done better by the RN. He or she is doing it on a daily basis.

Ok, that's my rant for the week. I'm passionate about this stuff because I've seen a lot of doctors, patients, and people of all walks getting in bad positions with their healthcare, or that of their loved ones, because they never understood or picked up on these principles until after they had a horrible, life-changing experience in the OR. It doesn't just apply to the OR, actually. Any aspect of your care. Or, even further, any service of any kind!

Proficiency in a highly complex task does not guarantee proficiency in a less complex task of a similar nature. If an ENT can do some nasty, nasty head and neck cancer surgeries, but then tries to do a theoretically "less complicated" surgery that he has much less repetition with, he can still do an inferior job or screw up, when compared to an ENT who does much less complex cases, but does a ton of that specific sort. I use this example because I can think of a lot of incidences with head and neck cancer where this is the case.

Thank you for the doctor recommendation. This has been a fun discussion.
 
I appreciate your input. I'm not as versed in the foot world as I am in other parts of medicine. And I do know that there are excellent, excellent physicians at big institutions. I've been on the patient end of several, and I know other great institutional physicians personally.

But there are horror stories too -- and big institutions are more capable than unprotected private practitioners of covering up for their physicians. People are very afraid of speaking out against well positioned institutional physicians because of potential career and reputational repercussions.

And while your institution may be benevolent, as may you, there are a number of places that use residents to bang out as many surgeries as possible with a lot less attention by the attending than patients would ever imagine. I'm not making this stuff up, and I won't name names -- maybe the podiatry world is better bred than other parts of medicine.

In so many procedures it takes one millimeter error to produce a horrifying result. I just don't know if I can totally agree with your position on guiding residents making a much better surgeon. I can understand how it can make you a better surgeon, but you would still have to be doing a ton of your own work to stay sharp.

A physician who won't tell me how many he does of a procedure a year, or has done in his career (obviously it can be an approximation), sets off a red flag in my mind. Do you do one a year? Ten? Fifty? What percent of your practice is this type of work? If I cannot get a ballpark out of the person -- I get very worried. Doctors know their numbers, approximately. You don't blank on that kind of stuff, even if you can't say "I did 13 last year, 11 the year before, 79 in my career" -- you know you do roughly 10 a year, over 50 a year.. ballparks.

You could argue that putting an IV in is pretty uncomplicated. It certainly is compared to most surgical procedures. But.. you get that nurse that hasn't done it for a year, or six months.. versus the one who is doing three a day -- and I'd wager that most of the time, there's going to be a difference. Having your hands in there and doing it yourself over and over keeps you fresh. Simple things that an RN does everyday, but a very talented surgeon only did back in medical school, are much more likely to be done better by the RN. He or she is doing it on a daily basis.

Ok, that's my rant for the week. I'm passionate about this stuff because I've seen a lot of doctors, patients, and people of all walks getting in bad positions with their healthcare, or that of their loved ones, because they never understood or picked up on these principles until after they had a horrible, life-changing experience in the OR. It doesn't just apply to the OR, actually. Any aspect of your care. Or, even further, any service of any kind!

Proficiency in a highly complex task does not guarantee proficiency in a less complex task of a similar nature. If an ENT can do some nasty, nasty head and neck cancer surgeries, but then tries to do a theoretically "less complicated" surgery that he has much less repetition with, he can still do an inferior job or screw up, when compared to an ENT who does much less complex cases, but does a ton of that specific sort. I use this example because I can think of a lot of incidences with head and neck cancer where this is the case.

Thank you for the doctor recommendation. This has been a fun discussion.

Based on my approximately 25 years of experience, I disagree with a lot of your thoughts. Yes, experience is important, but pumping out large numbers of a procedure does not necessarily guarantee better results. Maybe the doc doing fewer has stricter criteria taking the patient to the OR, but when he/she does there are better results.

You over read into things. Once again, I do not hand the blade to every resident in every case. But when I have confidence in a resident I direct the moves. I don't get rusty. I NEVER compromise patient care for the benefit of the resident. And if you can't understand how training residents makes me a better surgeon, you don't understand the educational process. To teach, I must be up to date. Similarly, residents often discuss new ideas, articles from journals, etc., and I can learn from them based on their experiences doing things differently than I do with other docs. When I believe I am too smart to learn from anyone, then I will retire. I know many docs who have never been involved with residents, and they get complacent and haven't kept up to date with changing techniques for many years. So yes, training residents does make me a better surgeon.

You obviously have completely different ideas than I do, and no matter what situation or scenario I bring up you will follow up with the exception, not the rule.

Do what you feel comfortable doing, but keep an open mind if you are early on in your career.
 
The Wookie says:

When you are proficient in the Force, and practice diligently, even something that is not necessarily practiced often, should be second nature. This applies to most everything within the teachings of the Force and may only not apply to the most complex of tasks.

That being said, if one is very uncomfortable with one aspect of the Force, even with repeated practice, it is likely wise to pass on those tasks to those deemed more proficient.
 
The Wookie says:

When you are proficient in the Force, and practice diligently, even something that is not necessarily practiced often, should be second nature. This applies to most everything within the teachings of the Force and may only not apply to the most complex of tasks.

That being said, if one is very uncomfortable with one aspect of the Force, even with repeated practice, it is likely wise to pass on those tasks to those deemed more proficient.


Once again our intergalactic traveler exhibits his wisdom.
 
Top