Abuse from Surgery Intern

[DBV]

That's fine... just tell the medical student that so they aren't sitting there starving to death wondering "when the hell is lunch time"

That magical time in third year when waiting to be dismissed for lunch turns to "hey I'm going to grab lunch, anyone want anything from x?"

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[Rendar5]

That magical time in third year when waiting to be dismissed for lunch turns to "hey I'm going to grab lunch, anyone want anything from x?"

lol, yep, realizing you're an adult and can go grab lunch without waiting for someone to tell you to.

 

[Redpancreas]

What are you on about? It's a nice gesture when your boss grabs you lunch or something like that. When I scribed, most docs got their scribes food each shift; they recognized that we were working the same ridiculous hours as them without as much spending money. I don't expect it, but it's not by itself uncomfortable. And while 'most' might live comfortably with what their parents provide them, not all do (though we do all have access to Monopoly money).

Medicine doesn't lend itself well to rigid schedules; that's a useful thing to get used to early. When I'm working on a team, I expect to eat and leave at similar times as the rest of the team; otherwise how is it a useful preview?

Couple issues I have here with what your saying but maybe I'm wrong.

1. Frankly, I'd prefer to pay for my own food and while it might be a nice gesture on a special occasion, it then becomes uncomfortable when you do something wrong later and you feel double bad/awkward because the attending bought you food and you screwed up. Also, there's loans so no one in medical school is starving so to speak.

2. You can't compare a scribe to a medical student. One does mostly-thoughtless work, gets paid, and then goes home and the other is being evaluated and there to challenge themselves and learn.

3. Unless your school is much different, residents work vastly different schedules than students. They usually get there an hour+ earlier, stay later, take call more often, etc. I believe Clerkships are there for students to see what the schedules are for each field and gain and understanding of what the presentations/managements for conditions the field commonly sees are and then after to leave at a reasonable time so they can prepare for their exam. On the other hand, a SubI is where you do exactly what your team does.

In regards to the no protected time, fair enough. I echo @sliceofbread136 and say you if that's the case with the ED, it's best to let the student know that and tell them to pack snacks because it sounds like that wasn't made clear if the students waiting for lunch. I may have never gotten that memo thru my 3rd year but I'll definitely keep in mind moving forward that not everyone is ok with cafeteria breaks especially with ED shifts. I'm clearly in the minority here. During my surgery rotation, we were usually dismissed tomget lunch at a reasonable/regular time.

 

[mistafab]

Are you crazy? Uncomfortable dynamic? 1. What is wrong with you? 2. Why are you ruining this for everyone else?

If a boss takes time to take you to lunch, that is a great gesture in any workplace. It says a) they care that you are a human who needs food to survive, and b) they want to talk with you and get a feel for who you are. In fact, in some other countries, bosses and workplaces are required to buy food for workers every day. Only in the US and on SDN can I believe someone could complain about free food and time with the boss. Time with the resident or attending over food is the perfect time to ask questions, learn stuff off the cuff, or just chill out.

Also, to put it frankly stop buying med students stuff. Once in a while like the last day of their shift or if they do some coffee scut for you tell them to get something with your card but don't buy them stuff everyday. It just sets up an uncomfortable dynamic IMO. Many medical students come from upper middle class families who live very comfortably with what their parents still provide them and can buy their own stuff.

The things I value most as a medical student are a rigid schedule. If you want to send me home at 6 everyday and only give me w a 30'minute lunch, that's fine, but then make those protected times.

 

[Redpancreas]

Are you crazy? Uncomfortable dynamic? 1. What is wrong with you? 2. Why are you ruining this for everyone else?

If a boss takes time to take you to lunch, that is a great gesture in any workplace. It says a) they care that you are a human who needs food to survive, and b) they want to talk with you and get a feel for who you are. In fact, in some other countries, bosses and workplaces are required to buy food for workers every day. Only in the US and on SDN can I believe someone could complain about free food and time with the boss. Time with the resident or attending over food is the perfect time to ask questions, learn stuff off the cuff, or just chill out.

Again, I really think these are false equivalences and I'm really surprised this is such an unpopular opinion so I'll shut up after this last point I guess.

1. Your attending isn't your "boss", he or she is your teacher and evaluator. You can technically ignore your attending, leave whenever you want, and it won't be your attending but administration who will decide if you fail based off your multiple evals (but of course disobeying an attending is something you don't do).

2. This isn't another country and we can all afford our food through one means or another.

3. There's no need for it to be everyday and over a period of time that money adds up.

The "get to know you" is a good point and something I would really like, but what if a medical student and the attending don't gel well? It'll just be awkward. I've gelled really well with some attendings and others are meh because of different styles/opinions. There's also plenty of opportunities set up by schools that go by various names like "dinner with docs" or whatever where you can show up at a physicians place and they'll cook for you or you two can meet at a restaurant and the tab's usually on them and there's plenty of time to discuss their field in a comfortable setting then.

 

[pupsnacks]

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[mistafab]

I appreciate your perspective, and I do slightly disagree but I am glad you see my point. The attending or resident (I blanket call anyone higher in hierarchy "boss") offering food is actually offering you clear, protected time for 1 on 1 with them. You can go to the lunch or whatever, not have them buy you anything (or maybe just a diet coke), and just chat while they eat. Even if they don't gel with you, on a professional level they can talk with you and get to know you or have you ask questions about your performance. I would like to say that you do not have to be personal at all with any boss, however, you do have to be professional and face time is a good opportunity - especially if protected.

Plus, science supports "food-sharing" behavior as being pro-relationship if I remember correctly. It is a good thing - it isn't about the money.

Again, I really think these are false equivalences and I'm really surprised this is such an unpopular opinion so I'll shut up after this last point I guess.

1. Your attending isn't your "boss", he or she is your teacher and evaluator. You can technically ignore your attending, leave whenever you want, and it won't be your attending but administration who will decide if you fail based off your multiple evals (but of course disobeying an attending is something you don't do).

2. This isn't another country and we can all afford our food through one means or another.

3. There's no need for it to be everyday and over a period of time that money adds up.

The "get to know you" is a good point and something I would really like, but what if a medical student and the attending don't gel well? It'll just be awkward. I've gelled really well with some attendings and others are meh because of different styles/opinions. There's also plenty of opportunities set up by schools that go by various names like "dinner with docs" or whatever where you can show up at a physicians place and they'll cook for you or you two can meet at a restaurant and the tab's usually on them and there's plenty of time to discuss their field in a comfortable setting then.

 

[Redpancreas]

I appreciate your perspective, and I do slightly disagree but I am glad you see my point. The attending or resident (I blanket call anyone higher in hierarchy "boss") offering food is actually offering you clear, protected time for 1 on 1 with them. You can go to the lunch or whatever, not have them buy you anything (or maybe just a diet coke), and just chat while they eat. Even if they don't gel with you, on a professional level they can talk with you and get to know you or have you ask questions about your performance. I would like to say that you do not have to be personal at all with any boss, however, you do have to be professional and face time is a good opportunity - especially if protected.

Plus, science supports "food-sharing" behavior as being pro-relationship if I remember correctly. It is a good thing - it isn't about the money.

These are all good points and I'll reconsider some of my notions on rotations moving forward.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

. This isn't another country and we can all afford our food through one means or another.

I don't know man, maybe you can but I haven't eaten out since starting med school because the budget is so tight. Now I have a wife and kids and a lot of students don't, but don't assume that everyone can afford to spend money on food.

 

[hello1234!]

Honestly, I think there is a point where students can be a little too critical of their attendings and residents.

Communication is a two way street. If you are unsure how the hours of your clerkship should be setup, just ask in the beginning what is typical and what you should expect.

I would also think it's obvious that you should not to be on your phone texting in front of your attending, or that maybe a lunch break before your attending and residents get a lunch break might not be a reasonable thing to expect.

***i was med student too

 

[Redpancreas]

I don't know man, maybe you can but I haven't eaten out since starting med school because the budget is so tight. Now I have a wife and kids and a lot of students don't, but don't assume that everyone can afford to spend money on food.

Ok then that's one point out of the three I mentioned. Sorry I didn't mean to come off as a spoilt brat.

 

[Redpancreas]

I think if you get offended for someone trying to buy you food you have a personality disorder? I hook my med students up all the time with free lunch because for some reason I have a lot of money on my card at the hospital. They don't seem offended, we just go down for team lunch and I think it builds camaraderie just talking about non-medicine stuff over a bite.

It's not offensive, it's just like meh..thanks but if you ask me to do something later -for example my favorite intern recently asked if I was free after the shelf to come in and help with patients- I'd feel obligated to. It's not like a weird power-thing where I feel belittled if someone buys me food. I'd welcome free food any day as well but don't want to burden the residents. The way you describe it seems chill and maybe I'd got it wrong.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Honestly, I think there is a point where students can be a little too critical of their attendings and residents.

Communication is a two way street. If you are unsure how the hours of your clerkship should be setup, just ask in the beginning what is typical and what you should expect.

I would also think it's obvious that you should not to be on your phone texting in front of your attending, or that maybe a lunch break before your attending and residents get a lunch break might not be a reasonable thing to expect.

***i was med student too

Communication is a two way street, but the person in question was obviously frequently failing at it. This caused him to blame the "generation" which is laughable. Said person needs to do some self QI.

As for the phone part I disagree actually. Shadowing in and of itself is a waste of time and a way for sub par medical schools to justify charging you tuition. If I am ever relegated to something so stupid you damn well better believe I'll be on my phone (if I was a Med student most likely doing uworld). This is true x1000 if said person is typing notes, at this point I would probably just ask to leave.

 

[Lexicon0]

It's not offensive, it's just like meh..thanks but if you ask me to do something later -for example my favorite intern recently asked if I was free after the shelf to come in and help with patients- I'd feel obligated to. It's not like a weird power-thing where I feel belittled if someone buys me food. I'd welcome free food any day as well but don't want to burden the residents. The way you describe it seems chill and maybe I'd got it wrong.

Residents are likely not 'burdening' themselves offering to buy coffee/food. It's pretty common practice to pay it forward - when I was a med student I had residents buy me the occasional coffee/meal and now as a resident I do the same for my med students.

 

[Redpancreas]

Residents are likely not 'burdening' themselves offering to buy coffee/food. It's pretty common practice to pay it forward - when I was a med student I had residents buy me the occasional coffee/meal and now as a resident I do the same for my med students.

What? I don't think anyone would be obligated to come in when they are not scheduled to come in. No one ever expects this. Have you ever had a job before? Many bosses buy their underlings food. Don't be weird.

OK, fair enough.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

So where is the part of the abuse here? It just sounds to me like a girl that can't take criticism and resorts to crying as a means to deal with it.

 

[jw3600]

So where is the part of the abuse here? It just sounds to me like a girl that can't take criticism and resorts to crying as a means to deal with it.

Pretty much the consensus

 

[finnasvaret]

I had a surgeon call me dumb and stuff (he had really creative insults reserved for me) and aggressively pimp in the OR (the bad kind). I mean everyone in the room would laugh at me, loudly too. But he was really nice outside the OR.