ABFAS foot vs ankle

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People who have been practicing, do you need to be qualified/certified in both to do ankle soft tissue, Achilles’ tendon repairs, peroneal tendon repairs, etc?
I am aware that some hospitals don’t even require ABFAS but the once that do, they want you to have both?
I am not talking about TAR and ankle fractures.
I want to do forefoot, occasional midfoot fusions, some soft tissue mass removals, tendon work, but no reconstruction work, no ankle fusions or ex fixes. Do I still need to get RRA ABFAS or foot is enough?

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People who have been practicing, do you need to be qualified/certified in both to do ankle soft tissue, Achilles’ tendon repairs, peroneal tendon repairs, etc?
I am aware that some hospitals don’t even require ABFAS but the once that do, they want you to have both?
I am not talking about TAR and ankle fractures.
I want to do forefoot, occasional midfoot fusions, some soft tissue mass removals, tendon work, but no reconstruction work, no ankle fusions or ex fixes. Do I still need to get RRA ABFAS or foot is enough?

Depends on the podiatrists on staff at your hospital and how small their penises are. If they have small penises they will definitely push admin to make you get RRA.

If you are the only podiatrist on staff then I doubt admin would care or know the difference. Neither would ortho.
 
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Depends on the podiatrists on staff at your hospital and how small their penises are. If they have small penises they will definitely push admin to make you get RRA.

If you are the only podiatrist on staff then I doubt admin would care or know the difference. Neither would ortho.
This is correct.

Also just because one hospital may not let you do a certain procedure does not mean another hospital or surgery center in the area has the same rules.
 
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Is it really having a small penis to enforce standards? If someone wants to do certain procedures, they should have to take the necessary steps as others in our profession have. Sure I’m certain there are many capable surgeons whom board cert/qualification is an annoying and seemingly unnecessary hassle but waiving this requirement is exactly how other incompetent surgeons end up performing cases they have no business performing… have bad outcomes… which then wind up in ortho offices and further perpetuate the negative perception of podiatry… after a while maybe these orthos who truly bring in the big bucks for the hospital will voice their concerns to those in charge and have certain privileges wiped for everyone. I certainly wouldn’t want to lose my privileges simply because someone gets a wild hair and wants to perform a procedure outside of their qualifications.
 
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Is it really having a small penis to enforce standards? If someone wants to do certain procedures, they should have to take the necessary steps as others in our profession have. Sure I’m certain there are many capable surgeons whom board cert/qualification is an annoying and seemingly unnecessary hassle but waiving this requirement is exactly how other incompetent surgeons end up performing cases they have no business performing… have bad outcomes… which then wind up in ortho offices and further perpetuate the negative perception of podiatry… after a while maybe these orthos who truly bring in the big bucks for the hospital will voice their concerns to those in charge and have certain privileges wiped for everyone. I certainly wouldn’t want to lose my privileges simply because someone gets a wild hair and wants to perform a procedure outside of their qualifications.
In a word: yes. Having just taken ABFAS qual exams and seeing how focused RRA is on TARs, supramalleolar osteotomies, and ankle revisions and given the procedures the OP wants to do, there is nothing listed that just the Foot ABFAS should exclude.
 
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Ok before I chime in here I just need to know first if we are supposed to measure from the taint to the tip
 
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waiving this requirement is exactly how other incompetent surgeons end up performing cases they have no business performing…

There are means in which you can safely grant and subsequently remove a surgeon’s privileges without even looking at board certification status.

Board certification does little to stop incompetent surgeons from performing cases. I’ve worked for a few with board certification that were hacks. Mandating ABFAS does nothing to change other medical professionals’ opinion of podiatry.

I certainly wouldn’t want to lose my privileges simply because someone gets a wild hair and wants to perform a procedure outside of their qualifications.

This happens at major hospital systems who require ABFAS. And in some cases (Baylor Scott and White, TX, the largest healthcare system in the state) privileges for certain procedures are removed without any single individual deciding to work outside of their training/ability. Why didn’t ABFAS cert requirement at those facilities stop privileges from being removed?
 
Is it really having a small penis to enforce standards? If someone wants to do certain procedures, they should have to take the necessary steps as others in our profession have. Sure I’m certain there are many capable surgeons whom board cert/qualification is an annoying and seemingly unnecessary hassle but waiving this requirement is exactly how other incompetent surgeons end up performing cases they have no business performing… have bad outcomes… which then wind up in ortho offices and further perpetuate the negative perception of podiatry… after a while maybe these orthos who truly bring in the big bucks for the hospital will voice their concerns to those in charge and have certain privileges wiped for everyone. I certainly wouldn’t want to lose my privileges simply because someone gets a wild hair and wants to perform a procedure outside of their qualifications.
I appreciate your input and wanted to clarify that I would not plan to do anything outside of qualifications but it’s hard to know that is considered foot qualification vs RRA. Doing Achilles debridement as an example, is it RRA or is it foot? Doing Haglungs deformity removal, will it require foot or rra qualification/certification.
I totally agree that only qualified person should be doing those procedures, but is there is a clear cut what is foot vs what is RRA.
TAR, ankle fusion, Supra malleolar osteotomy and Charcot reconstruction is certainly RRA. Being said, majority of ortho pods that I have been working with in residency are not comfortable with those. And I am not planning to do those procedures, so paying money for that qualification if I would never become certified just makes no sense. But again, I want to confirm that’s it’s correct.
 
Is it really having a small penis to enforce standards? If someone wants to do certain procedures, they should have to take the necessary steps as others in our profession have.
??

what percentage of abfas certified are people who did 1 year residencies who are grandfathered in? I'm curious.
 
There are means in which you can safely grant and subsequently remove a surgeon’s privileges without even looking at board certification status.

Board certification does little to stop incompetent surgeons from performing cases. I’ve worked for a few with board certification that were hacks. Mandating ABFAS does nothing to change other medical professionals’ opinion of podiatry.



This happens at major hospital systems who require ABFAS. And in some cases (Baylor Scott and White, TX, the largest healthcare system in the state) privileges for certain procedures are removed without any single individual deciding to work outside of their training/ability. Why didn’t ABFAS cert requirement at those facilities stop privileges from being removed?
Oh lordt, BSW treats podiatry like total ****s.
 
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I appreciate your input and wanted to clarify that I would not plan to do anything outside of qualifications but it’s hard to know that is considered foot qualification vs RRA. Doing Achilles debridement as an example, is it RRA or is it foot? Doing Haglungs deformity removal, will it require foot or rra qualification/certification.
I totally agree that only qualified person should be doing those procedures, but is there is a clear cut what is foot vs what is RRA.
TAR, ankle fusion, Supra malleolar osteotomy and Charcot reconstruction is certainly RRA. Being said, majority of ortho pods that I have been working with in residency are not comfortable with those. And I am not planning to do those procedures, so paying money for that qualification if I would never become certified just makes no sense. But again, I want to confirm that’s it’s correct.
I believe Achilles work and Haglund's falls under Foot and not RRA. I've seen attendings who do not have the RRA credential do Achilles work.
 
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BSW that bad?? I’ve been fooled 😂 know of a classmate that went there and touts himself as highly trained etc etc
No the residency in Temple is great from what I’ve heard, but the the system (at least in Dallas) is not podiatry friendly.
 
No the residency in Temple is great from what I’ve heard, but the the system (at least in Dallas) is not podiatry friendly.

They use the TX scope of practice definition to justify limiting podiatrist’s privileges in their facilities across the state. A lot of ankle procedures aren’t allowed to be performed by podiatrists in their facility. Can’t believe requiring ABFAS didn’t prevent those restrictions…

The purpose of ABFAS is to limit competition, not “protect” us or the general public. And certainly not to make orthopedic surgeons like or respect us. They might tell you that’s the importance of having another board, or how they justify their existence, but it doesn’t actually serve those purposes
 
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They use the TX scope of practice definition to justify limiting podiatrist’s privileges in their facilities across the state. A lot of ankle procedures aren’t allowed to be performed by podiatrists in their facility. Can’t believe requiring ABFAS didn’t prevent those restrictions…

The purpose of ABFAS is to limit competition, not “protect” us or the general public. And certainly not to make orthopedic surgeons like or respect us. They might tell you that’s the importance of having another board, or how they justify their existence, but it doesn’t actually serve those purposes
the purpose is to.make money
 
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Certainly not arguing or advocating that ABFAS is perfect or will protect our privileges nor am I suggesting that we should do all things to please ortho, but there does need to be some regulation and those who are not technically qualified to do certain cases should not be doing them.

The grandfathering of those with 1 year of training is a valid point and whether or not that is the correct decision is up for debate but that doesn’t mean we should continue to let people just slide in now without the appropriate credentials simply because it was done in the past.
 
that doesn’t mean we should continue to let people just slide in now without the appropriate credentials simply because it was done in the past.

An individual facility’s credentialing process can do this without a need for board certification. Didn’t do any total ankles in residency? You don’t get the privileges and must have a proctor or must assist on X number before you can be granted the privilege. Doing bad work consistently because of lack of training? Credentialing committee should have a case review function and they already renew or withdraw privileges as they see fit based on volume and outcomes. Again, the board certification process isn’t needed in order for privileges to be administered, monitored, maintained and withdrawn. A facility can do that on their own.

ABFAS doesn’t change the number of people who “slide in” and get privileges for something they shouldn’t. In fact, core privileges at facilities based on ABFAS RRA certification, probably gives many podiatrists privileges for procedures (TAR, Supramal osteotomies, multiplane ex fix application, etc) that they are not qualified to perform. Meaning, once you check off the ABFAS cert box, you get a standard set of privileges that is actually more extensive than the number of procedures the podiatrist is comfortable or capable of performing. Is the blanket granting of privileges based on a certain certification a problem? Is it ABFAS’s fault? Would you actually have a narrower scope of surgical privileges if it was based on case logs/training and not granted based on board certification status? Would that be more or less “safe” for the patient and the facility?

ABFAS is just trying to create a necessity for it to exist. You don’t really need ABFAS to run a surgical unit/surgery center, but if you can get certification requirements written in to the bylaws, well, now people need ABFAS. Think of them like a realtor. Sure, they do a little work for you and they love convincing you of their importance and their value. But two consenting adults are more than capable of negotiating and entering into a voluntary contract to purchase a property without the involvement of a realtor. This is a lot like that.
 
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I appreciate your input and wanted to clarify that I would not plan to do anything outside of qualifications but it’s hard to know that is considered foot qualification vs RRA....
There is no line in the sand (foot) for foot vs RRA.

ACFAS privileging guidelines just recommend ABFAS cert for procedures... and appropriate case logs, volume, competency monitored, etc. I think they suggest course training cert for scopes or TARs, but I haven't looked at it in awhile. It's a good read... doesn't really delineate Foot vs RRA. A lot of hospitals and Chiefs of Podiatry follow that (because it's good... and so they can't be accused of being subjective).

Regardless, as was said, get all the certs you can, pass the tests, have the logs, bring your 'A' game for anything you do. You won't go wrong that way (even if you are not allowed to use your full training in most places).

At the end of the day, in any surgery field, there are lions and foxes...
-The lions are the young ones who are hungry and aggressive and getting numbers for boards and will put a plate and screws on 98% of fractures they see, do recon on obese people, salvage obvious osteomyelitis in the cunieforms, etc. They are often talented and well trained and meaning well. Results can be good, bad, or often even good on xray yet disastrous in the pt eye. A lot comes down to communication.
-The foxes are your surgeons who have been there and done that (or at least read and watch enough to see the train wrecks of others). They learn to spot the ones that will do fine with non-op, the ones who should not have any op, the 'CRPS-prone,' etc. They usually do good work (or refer it appropriate), but they might ORIF 60% of fractures. Most still do a fair amount of surgery - and not all even have gray hair, but they pick their spots and spend as much time talking to patients as they do talking to reps and drooling over fixation and implant options. The sooner you can graduate to fox, the better for your sleep and sanity and weekends... and usually better for your pts also.

So, example from yesterday: ER sends me early 50s guy with splinted calc fx intra-articular. He is a laborer who fell off a ladder, not overweight, light smoker, former EtOH but now under control, ipsi ankle ORIF many years ago, DVT from a few years ago (etiology unclear since he had spotty care with pandemic) and still on Xeralto, lives alone without much help available. Exam is ecchymotic edema heel and palpable pulses and WNL temp and cap refill. Xray shows calc fx with height and length ok, clinically pretty rectus. He has CD of ER CT from yesterday, and it's a blown up calc body with lateral blowout with some anterior facet trouble but very minimal posterior facet damage. We talk for 20mins while I put a Jones and show XR on about how the Achilles will shorten if he walks, he feels he can use the crutches ok, fit him a CAM boot, risk of DVT, risk of surgery, risk of not fixating, etc. I explain how he has a 500% chance of arthrosis due to the injury (and prior ankle bimall), possible future hindfoot brace or injects or recon (whether or not we did ORIF now or not). He was cool with it and thanked me.
...so, 30 year old me would've been on the phone figuring out Xeralto and an OR time next week without much thought.
...current ~10yrs later me is going to leave it, even though he's a fair surgical candidate with significant injury, and I would like the case for RRA boards. I think the balance is in favor of non-op (I would've done ORIF for him if it was in any significant varus or shortened, though). I did the same non-op treatment for at least a couple waifish 20s girls at my last IHS job who had worse fx on CT (no terrible varus or shorten, but pretty bad post facet), but I chose to cast since they had really sketchy domestic/transportation situations or drug issues. I also ORIFed a few of the same injuries in other patients with better social support and less issues, but I just try to pick my spots to the best of my ability and training... you can almost always kick the can down the road and do re-align or STJ or triple later on. In a lot of surgery, the soft skills are as important as the suture and bone skills. Maybe I'm getting old :)
 
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