A thought on the Caribbean and FMG

[oldpro]

Why? Why always brow beat a person with a lower GPA with slim to no chance to getting accepted in the USA to staying in the USA and Muddle through another 2 to 3 years with getting turned down in the US,

Stats are that Qualified people who applied to medical school, only 40 out of 100% that apply do get accepted. SO with so much competition, and these people below the low end of the average ie: 3.2 3.1 and even 3.3 GPA's and MCATs in the low 20's we all know the chance of getting into a US medical school is slim to none. Even after a Post Bac, there is no guarantee, in fact if the post bac is lower then 3.5 gpa then it may have been a waste.
WHY? Because you know better? You know they have no shot at being a Doc?

Not true.

The Caribbean and Foreign schools are now where to go, telling some one with a 3.1 GPA to suck it up and spend years trying to get into a school they may never get into when they could go and study medicine now is just ridiculous.

The smart and intelligent people who study medicine know that the goal is to practice, at some point these people must realize if they have lower grades and MCAT then the best residencies may not be possible, in fact the chance to study medicine is now limited or may not happen at all in their life.

I say to all these people ignore the uniformed and snobby people and go to the Caribbean or other foreign school get the MD or MBBS do it! While some of these people squirm for years trying to get into the great US schools and never make it, like me you will be looking at your last year of medical school thinking about a residency.

good luck.

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[Top Gun]

Why? Why always brow beat a person with a lower GPA with slim to no chance to getting accepted in the USA to staying in the USA and Muddle through another 2 to 3 years with getting turned down in the US,

Stats are that Qualified people who applied to medical school, only 40 out of 100% that apply do get accepted. SO with so much competition, and these people below the low end of the average ie: 3.2 3.1 and even 3.3 GPA's and MCATs in the low 20's we all know the chance of getting into a US medical school is slim to none. Even after a Post Bac, there is no guarantee, in fact if the post bac is lower then 3.5 gpa then it may have been a waste.
WHY? Because you know better? You know they have no shot at being a Doc?

Not true.

The Caribbean and Foreign schools are now where to go, telling some one with a 3.1 GPA to suck it up and spend years trying to get into a school they may never get into when they could go and study medicine now is just ridiculous.

The smart and intelligent people who study medicine know that the goal is to practice, at some point these people must realize if they have lower grades and MCAT then the best residencies may not be possible, in fact the chance to study medicine is now limited or may not happen at all in their life.

I say to all these people ignore the uniformed and snobby people and go to the Caribbean or other foreign school get the MD or MBBS do it! While some of these people squirm for years trying to get into the great US schools and never make it, like me you will be looking at your last year of medical school thinking about a residency.

good luck.

I have to somewhat disagree here. A person should try at least two times to get into a US school (both MD and DO) before going to the Caribbean. If their grades need improvement, they should do a post-bacc to increase their chances of getting into US schools. Why? Because although the idea of starting med school now in the Caribbean is tempting, there are several advantages to going to a school in the US. First of all, once a student becomes accepted to a US school, it is virtually guaranteed that he or she will be a doctor. At least 94% of US med school matriculants go on to earn their MD. The attrition rate is very low in US med schools. In the Caribbean, attrition rates are higher. And most important of all, US graduates have a much better chance of securing a residency. 98% of US seniors match, compared to 50% of US IMG's. Of course, the better Caribbean schools, like SGU and Ross, have higher match rates, but they are not as high as those from US schools. The Caribbean med schools are an excellent option if you have tried to get into a US school several times and have been rejected each time. But Caribbean schools should only be a last resort because even once you're admitted, there are no guarantees. Now, is it guaranteed that the applicant will get into a US school provided that they have retaken the MCAT and achieved a higher score, and also have improved their science GPA through a post-bacc program? Certainly not. But the US med school still remains the ideal path to take toward becoming a doctor.

 

[oldpro]

once a student becomes accepted to a US school, it is virtually guaranteed that he or she will be a doctor. At least 94% of US med school matriculants go on to earn their MD. compared to 50% of US IMG's. Of course, the better Caribbean schools, like SGU and Ross, have higher match rates, but they are not as high as those from US schools. The Caribbean med schools are an excellent option if you have tried to get into a US school several times and have been rejected each time. But Caribbean schools should only be a last resort because even once you're admitted, there are no guarantees.

Yes I agree with a lot you said but the 50% really? I have argued this before, it is not true, it is a urban myth, if this number was real there would be thousands on the net telling us they screwed up and do not practice, that has not been the case for the 5 years I have spent researching this on the net. So without real hard evidence it's an opinion only. Also you said try two cycles? How many years then 2, 3, 4? so our life should be on hold in debt and have to pay back undergrad loans with a degree many times cannot get us a good job in mean time? What about getting married and a family on hold too? This is not for everyone and some will go to the caribbean to start learning medicine rather than wait for something they may never get.

Now, is it guaranteed that the applicant will get into a US school provided that they have retaken the MCAT and achieved a higher score, and also have improved their science GPA through a post-bacc program? Certainly not. But the US med school still remains the ideal path to take toward becoming a doctor.

No it is not guaranteed that you sill get into medical school after a post bac. I have known more then a few turned down 1 or 2 cycles after the post bac.

If all you had to do is an extra year to get in then why wouldn't everyone with a 3.0 to 3.3 just do the post bac year then go to medical school the next? Because it does not work in every case, it's not that simple.

US path is ideal for US practice true, what if you want to practice elsewhere or practice in a specialty that has great need like primary care? You really think it matters that much? I do not.

 

[StriveToBeDr]

So if I get accepted to both AZCOM and SGU, should I go to AZCOM?
I am a Canadian, and if learning OMM and take COMPLEX in addition to USMLE could increase my chances of obtaining a more competitive residence as a DO, I would go to AZCOM. Anyone can provide me some insight?

thanks

 

[oldpro]

So if I get accepted to both AZCOM and SGU, should I go to AZCOM?
I am a Canadian, and if learning OMM and take COMPLEX in addition to USMLE could increase my chances of obtaining a more competitive residence as a DO, I would go to AZCOM. Anyone can provide me some insight?

thanks

Well basically yes go to AZCOM, you have a shot at DO residencies then.
From the Caribbean you do not have a shot at DO residencies.

Hope that helps

 

[jackets5]

As for the MD/DO thing its a personal decision. Personally I was accepted to both carib MD and US DO and decided to go Carrib MD. First, i believe that OMM is glorified chiropractic work and i totally think that chiro is garbage. I would not waste a single second of my time learning that which has never been proven to work scientifically. Also, the stigma of being a carib MD will leave very quickly once you are in residency but for the rest of your life you will be a DO and i have heard several outstanding MD's who think not to highly on DO training specifically in surgical subspecialties. not saying one is better than the other but it is a personal decision that one must make. IMO opinoin SGU is better than DO schools, i wouldnt say that about all carrib schools though

 

[Osteomania]

Yes I agree with a lot you said but the 50% really? I have argued this before, it is not true, it is a urban myth, if this number was real there would be thousands on the net telling us they screwed up and do not practice, that has not been the case for the 5 years I have spent researching this on the net. So without real hard evidence it's an opinion only. Also you said try two cycles? How many years then 2, 3, 4? so our life should be on hold in debt and have to pay back undergrad loans with a degree many times cannot get us a good job in mean time? What about getting married and a family on hold too? This is not for everyone and some will go to the caribbean to start learning medicine rather than wait for something they may never get.

No it is not guaranteed that you sill get into medical school after a post bac. I have known more then a few turned down 1 or 2 cycles after the post bac.

If all you had to do is an extra year to get in then why wouldn't everyone with a 3.0 to 3.3 just do the post bac year then go to medical school the next? Because it does not work in every case, it's not that simple.

US path is ideal for US practice true, what if you want to practice elsewhere or practice in a specialty that has great need like primary care? You really think it matters that much? I do not.

Here are some numbers, gentlemen. Waste not your time on speculation and rumors.

There were 37,364 applicants in 2005 and 48% (17,978) made it to US Allopathic Schools. That rate has risen 10% since 1997. The number of applicatnts has DROPPED by 8,000 since 1997. The number of spots has expanded by about 500! (AAMC Data Book, 2006).

Caribbean Med Schools
USMLE1 pass rate: 59%
USMLE2 pass rate: 71%
USMLE3 pass rate: 68%
US schools have rates in the 90's (which may have been obvious).
(Data from the 2005 NBME report).

DOs take the exact same curriculum PLUS hundred of hours in osteopathic manipulation. I do not see how you can compare them to chiropractors. In fact they (DOs)can be found in every medical specialty. The drawback: the degree is not recognized in Canada, I suspect for purely legislative reasons (like the health system won't cover treatment from a "D.O.").

Residency Numbers (2006 NMRP Data Book.)
There are about 16,000 graduates each year, plus another roughly 12,000 IMGs. Guess how many spots there are each year. About 21,000 per year produced by the NMRP. Throw the eligible DO grads (about 3,000 per year) into the mix. Though they have their own match program, they are more than eligible for the NMRP match (they take the same curriculum, folks). Simple arithmetic shows that IMGs are more or less screwed each year, regardless of where they attended. But it's not because their schooling is less than desirable. It's the number of spots available and the preference of many hospitals for mainland students (though they would probably never admit it).

But this is residency, guys, not actually getting an MD. Anyone with the drive will get it, one way or another. It's just that some paths will take an extra year or two to get what you want. If you know people in the system already it won't take you so long. If you got Wicked grades and USMLEs it won't take you so long.

Makes sense to me.

I got all this data from the 2007 SDN Admissions Guide. Excellent read for anything from Pre-med to Residency and beyond. General overview of the process of getting a medical degree.

Cheers.

 

[StriveToBeDr]

hi, Osteomania. So are you in DO now?

 

[Osteomania]

No, applying to Caribbean and Europe now for September. Trying to get an MD (or equivalent). I considered the DO route, but since the degree is not officially recognized in Canada, my options would be limited (and DO schools charge a fortune).

 

[jackets5]

I think we should clarify somethings as well. It is much harder for a non-US citizen to match, than a US citizen who was schooled abroad. Also, DO's have a much, much lower pass rate than US allopathic schools. I can swear i saw it posted somewhere at like 70%. Also, a US citizen who went to one of the big carrib schools, passed step 1 on the first try will fare better than a DO who failed step 1 the first time. So if you are a US citizen go to one of the bigger carrib schools and pass your step 1 one the first try you will match

 

[oldpro]

There were 37,364 applicants in 2005 and 48% (17,978) made it to US Allopathic Schools. That rate has risen 10% since 1997. The number of applicatnts has DROPPED by 8,000 since 1997. The number of spots has expanded by about 500! (AAMC Data Book, 2006).

These numbers are old, I will post my source later but the number of applicants has not fallen at all, it may be stats you are looking at saying new applicants not including reapplicants, the numbers I saw for 2007 was in the 40 thousands and the acceptance rate was not as high as you claim or the source claims.

In any case if you read what I posted, I'm talking about applicants who are below the average in GPA but still are qualified and the chances of these making the 40% or what you posted 48% are slim to none. In this debate everyone wants to tell the others just work hard and take 2 to 4 years more to do this or that, and I'm saying why? Re evaluate your goals and for some going to the Caribbean or other will make sense and they can be successful. It is not quite as bad as US students want to make it. It is more up to each individual to do well be it Caribbean, US or European medical school

DO not rely on anyone but you in this journey and you will succeed.

Get the degree to practice be it MD DO or MBBS

I think this is what gets lost in this.

USMLE is a test, hard and tough,

As far as step three scores how does that have anything to do with anything but the individual more than anything? The residency programs prepare you for step three, not Basic Science.

Good Luck

 

[oldpro]

I did not start this thread to say that Caribbean is better then US MD or DO but that it is a way for some to get the MD.

It is not as bad as many claim it is, there are thousands of FMG's in the USA today.
Some are program directors and very successful practicioners.

 

[J ROD]

A degree is only a piece of paper.

The person inside makes the difference!

 

[Pathlesstrvld]

http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2006.html

1st time Step 1 takers from non-US/ non-Canadian schools in 2006 71% pass

1st time Step 1 takers from DO schools in 2006 77% pass

1st time Step 1 takers from US/ Canadian Schools 95% pass

71% passing rate for 1st time test takers among the so called "US rejects", with DO students performing slightly higher.......not bad at all.

 

[tkim]

I considered the DO route, but since the degree is not officially recognized in Canada, my options would be limited (and DO schools charge a fortune).

Where in Canada?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathic_Medicine

Canada (varies by province)
Alberta Unlimited. LMCC, Step 1&2 required
British Columbia Unlimited. LMCC required
Manitoba Unlimited. US license recognized.
New Brunswick Unlimited. LMCC required, except DOs registered in Maine
Newfoundland Pending. Currently under review.
NW Territories Unlimited. US license recognized.
Nova Scotia Unlimited. Only D.O.s from ACGME (US or Canadian) residency.
Ontario Unlimited. Only D.O.s from ACGME residency.
Prince Edward I. Restricted. No provision for US D.O.
Quebec Unlimited. 1 year GME in Quebec & French fluency required.
Saskatchewan Limited. OMM only.
Yukon Territory Unlimited. US license recognized.

 

[oldpro]

http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2006.html

1st time Step 1 takers from non-US/ non-Canadian schools in 2006 71% pass

1st time Step 1 takers from DO schools in 2006 77% pass

1st time Step 1 takers from US/ Canadian Schools 95% pass

71% passing rate for 1st time test takers among the so called "US rejects", with DO students performing slightly higher.......not bad at all.

Yes this was like what I saw Thanks!

 

[ScootDoc]

!

 

[ScootDoc]

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[ScootDoc]

...

 

[J ROD]

Oh WOW! Did you think of that all by yourself? Ha Ha!

Is that what they teach you out on the islands/diploma mills?

Oh WOW, Did you think of that all by yourself?

Ha, Ha! (Nice, "smart" guy. Great comeback. I guess I just got "served", NOT!!)

Actually, I do not go to a Caribbean school.

Go make yourself feel special somewhere else. Maybe your mommy can help you with that!! You are her special, little guy!!!

Just because you can keep a high GPA and score well on standardized test will not make you a physician.

Don't troll on here to make yourself feel better. It is much worse than not being at a US MD school.

Now, this will be my only reply to you because I know you came here for a fight and my mother taught me to never argue with an idiot because people will not be able to tell you apart soon.

This reply is more for the hardworking, Caribbean student trying to make their dream come true.

I wish you luck and hope you mature before you begin to practice as a US MD.

 

[ScootDoc]

...

 

[flumazenil]

just work hard..regardless of what people say..its your life...once you complete a residency...enjoy!

 

[Top Gun]

Oh WOW! Did you think of that all by yourself? Ha Ha!

Is that what they teach you out on the islands/diploma mills?

Yeah, when you apply for residency, go ahead and talk about the Caribbean schools being diploma mills. Then, when you find out the program director is a Caribbean graduate, or has friends and colleagues who graduated from the Caribbean, you will have effectively shot yourself in the foot. And yes, there are Caribbean graduates in those positions. At a family practice program I interviewed at, one of the associate program directors was a graduate of St. Matthew's. I can just see the look on your face right now. Must be something like this .

The US schools might be the best guarantee toward getting a residency, and that is the only reason I encourage students to apply there first before considering the Caribbean, but some of the Caribbean schools, in my opinion, have done a pretty good job of educating their students, especially places like SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba. Take a look at SGU's match list. You will see that our graduates have matched in a variety of residency programs in a variety of specialties, except for the most competitive ones like derm or plastics. You'll find the match lists on the website for SGU.

So you managed to get into a US med school. That's great, do you want a cookie? Or maybe a gold medal? Go back to the Allopathic forums and complain about Caribbean schools there. We don't need your kind here.

 

[oldpro]

Benzo anybody? Anyone else have any other drug suggestion for OLDPRO?

Thanks I'm fine.

I'm very tired of people who have great stats and getting into a US MD or DO school telling others with lower stats that will take years to overcome or never overcome, to get into a US school. To spend years and busting but for something they may never achieve when they could of studied medicine in just a few months. Not everyone wants to be a surgeon, not everyone wants Derm, some want primary care.

The comments I read are "Avoid the Caribbean at all costs" a lot of times and sick of it, its a stupid comment that in some cases is bad advice.

Yes the US is better, sure but not everyone can or will get accepted.

 

[MDPWR]

A degree is only a piece of paper.

The person inside makes the difference!

As long as you are getting your degree from a accredited medical school your statement is 100% true, and I agree with you on this one bro.

Thanks.

 

[MDPWR]

Ha Ha Ha! I love how people get so rowled up!!! You don't like it ignore it! If you are looking to flame, react like you just did. ha ha! Good luck w/ Pharm & take a Zanex.

Stop attacking one and another!

 

[StriveToBeDr]

I know SGU is better than some new or low-tier DO schools. What if the choice is between AZCOM or Western Vs SGU?

 

[Top Gun]

Thanks I'm fine.

I'm very tired of people who have great stats and getting into a US MD or DO school telling others with lower stats that will take years to overcome or never overcome, to get into a US school. To spend years and busting but for something they may never achieve when they could of studied medicine in just a few months. Not everyone wants to be a surgeon, not everyone wants Derm, some want primary care.

The comments I read are "Avoid the Caribbean at all costs" a lot of times and sick of it, its a stupid comment that in some cases is bad advice.

Yes the US is better, sure but not everyone can or will get accepted.

Oldpro, I agree with you on this. I was only saying earlier that a person should try twice to get into a US school because that was the most reliable route for getting a US residency. The Caribbean, to me, is an excellent option if you have already tried to get into US schools. What I said had nothing to do with the quality of education in Caribbean med schools. I went to SGU and did just fine on Step 1 and Step 2. There were people in my class who scored 95's on the USMLE. The problem is that the students from Caribbean med students still carry a stigma, and because of this, residency program directors will tend to favor applicants from US med schools instead of Caribbean ones. Even the students who were top in their class in their Caribbean schools and achieved 99's on their Step exams carry the stigma. That is the only real reason to try for a US school before going to the Caribbean. I did not mean, however, that a student should necessarily avoid the Caribbean at all costs. Rather, I thought that the Caribbean should be more of a fallback.

I do agree with you, however, that a student may have personal reasons for going to a Caribbean med school instead of reapplying to a US school. Maybe they want to start a family as soon as possible or pay off their debts as soon as possible, as you said earlier. So I guess the decision to go to a Caribbean med school really depends on the individual.

 

[oldpro]

Thanks top gun you get me.

I agree with most of you more then you know.

Do not think for one second that I think the Caribbean is better then the US.

In fact I have my own set of problems like financing the last 6 months since the Sallie Mae pull out.


But it's worth it. It's worth the risk to be a Doc!

 

[Linus2007]

Hey oldpro and Top Gun i definitely agree with what you guys said. I have to sadly admit that during pre-clinicals I was on who was in the avoid Carribean schools at all costs. Having worked with a few as fellows and residents I have to say that I was completely wrong. It really does depend on what kind of a person you are and what you want to get out of the system. SGU grads have really impressed me the ones I worked with in IM, FP and EM know their EBM s**t like crazy. Same with DOs, there have been a few really great ones.

 

[spreebee]

I have to somewhat disagree here. A person should try at least two times to get into a US school (both MD and DO) before going to the Caribbean. If their grades need improvement, they should do a post-bacc to increase their chances of getting into US schools. Why? Because although the idea of starting med school now in the Caribbean is tempting, there are several advantages to going to a school in the US. First of all, once a student becomes accepted to a US school, it is virtually guaranteed that he or she will be a doctor. At least 94% of US med school matriculants go on to earn their MD. The attrition rate is very low in US med schools. In the Caribbean, attrition rates are higher. And most important of all, US graduates have a much better chance of securing a residency. 98% of US seniors match, compared to 50% of US IMG's. Of course, the better Caribbean schools, like SGU and Ross, have higher match rates, but they are not as high as those from US schools. The Caribbean med schools are an excellent option if you have tried to get into a US school several times and have been rejected each time. But Caribbean schools should only be a last resort because even once you're admitted, there are no guarantees. Now, is it guaranteed that the applicant will get into a US school provided that they have retaken the MCAT and achieved a higher score, and also have improved their science GPA through a post-bacc program? Certainly not. But the US med school still remains the ideal path to take toward becoming a doctor.

I have to disagree with this... I go to a top caribbean school... Everyone that hasn't flunked out gets a U.S. residency from my school... This 50 percent match is just mumbo jumbo... Well, it depends.. If you go to the big 4 you will get a residency... Most of the students at my school will "Prematch" outside of the match and that's why these "match" numbers seem so low....Also, if you pick any residency program like the university of tennessee for instance, you will see many IMG's matching into surgery and higher specialties from caribbean schools as well as schools from brazil, mexico, and Europe... Don't forget, many residency programs are headed by foreign grads that are actually pro FMG's, and the best person for the job gets the spot (no matter if your U.S. or not).

 

[spreebee]

http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2006.html

1st time Step 1 takers from non-US/ non-Canadian schools in 2006 71% pass

1st time Step 1 takers from DO schools in 2006 77% pass

1st time Step 1 takers from US/ Canadian Schools 95% pass

71% passing rate for 1st time test takers among the so called "US rejects", with DO students performing slightly higher.......not bad at all.

1st time Step 1 takers from non-US/ non-Canadan schools (worldwide) = 71%

1st time Step 1 takers from a Caribbean TOP 4 school pass rate = >92% pass rate

Remember that the top 4 in the carribean are based off of U.S. medical school values and cirricula where it might not be the same for Russian or Ethiopian med schools for instance (thus lower pass rate)

 

[Top Gun]

I have to disagree with this... I go to a top caribbean school... Everyone that hasn't flunked out gets a U.S. residency from my school... This 50 percent match is just mumbo jumbo... Well, it depends.. If you go to the big 4 you will get a residency... Most of the students at my school will "Prematch" outside of the match and that's why these "match" numbers seem so low....Also, if you pick any residency program like the university of tennessee for instance, you will see many IMG's matching into surgery and higher specialties from caribbean schools as well as schools from brazil, mexico, and Europe... Don't forget, many residency programs are headed by foreign grads that are actually pro FMG's, and the best person for the job gets the spot (no matter if your U.S. or not).

You are correct to a certain extent. The 50% figure came originally from the NRMP website. That figure doesn't account for the IMG's who prematch. If you included the prematches in the percentage of IMG's who obtain residencies, that would probably bring the figure up to something like 70%, maybe even 80%. Also, a Caribbean grad could definitely get something moderately competitive like surgery, anesthesiology, or emergency medicine. But it is rare to see IMG's get anything like derm, plastics, ENT, or ophtho. I knew one guy from my class at SGU who got ophtho, but he was super-smart to begin with, and had excellent USMLE scores. Even then, I'm not sure how he did it considering many US grads had the same qualifications.

 

[Vermian]

Ha Ha Ha! I love how people get so rowled up!!! You don't like it ignore it! If you are looking to flame, react like you just did. ha ha! Good luck w/ Pharm & take a Zanex.

I don't normally like to get drawn into the nonsense but I have to ask ScootDoc - did you mean Xanax or Zanaflex or are you working for a pharmaceutical company developing a new drug or are you having trouble with pharmacology?

For the record - Caribbean graduate 2002 (AUC) - currently PGY5 in neurosurgery.

 

[AlleghenyPOD]

Exactly my case. Was accepted to several DO schools but am firm with my decision.

 

[BrainBuff]

A US student should consider attending a foreign medical school a drastic and last resort option. It is never the same, not even after years in practice and no matter where you did your residency. Unfortunately, the stigma never goes away. To say otherwise would be extremely disingenuous and unrealistic wishful thinking.

The obstacles to return and practice medicine in the US afterwards, the constant "need" of having to "prove" yourself all the time, etc have a huge toll in some people.

Anyone should try to improve their standing and reapply to US med schools if necessary.

 

[Vermian]

I have to disagree. I may only be in my 5th year of residency, but no one ever brings up that I am a Caribbean grad. In fact, I have rotated to other residency programs, and they have never brought it up either. I have been treated equal to other residents of my year every where I have been.

I guess I can only comment up to this point. So, I will leave the post-graduation comments to others who might know.

 

[jackets5]

A US student should consider attending a foreign medical school a drastic and last resort option. It is never the same, not even after years in practice and no matter where you did your residency. Unfortunately, the stigma never goes away. To say otherwise would be extremely disingenuous and unrealistic wishful thinking.

The obstacles to return and practice medicine in the US afterwards, the constant "need" of having to "prove" yourself all the time, etc have a huge toll in some people.

Anyone should try to improve their standing and reapply to US med schools if necessary.

The stigma never goes away are u joking. After/during residency no one really cares. I shadow at an orthopedics office where the docs went to NYU, UCSF, Dartmouth. Two of them did residecny at Harvard and the other at NYU. The other doc in the office went to St. George and did his residency at SUNY Downstate. Their boss is a grad of UAG in guadaljara, is also the head physician for major leauge baseball. They handle the Jets, Islanders, NY dragons, US open tenis etc. So id say there really isnt much of a stigma there

 

[Top Gun]

I have to disagree. I may only be in my 5th year of residency, but no one ever brings up that I am a Caribbean grad. In fact, I have rotated to other residency programs, and they have never brought it up either. I have been treated equal to other residents of my year every where I have been.

I guess I can only comment up to this point. So, I will leave the post-graduation comments to others who might know.

Granted, there is a stigma when trying to get into residency. Its why US grads get first dibs which regard to specialty and program choice. But once you've graduated from a residency and have been practicing for a few years, then you're golden.

 

[BrainBuff]

Dudes, the stigma has nothing to do with how successful one becomes later on. One could be the personal doctor of the President of the United States, but there is a certain feeling of inadequacy that some people have a hard time getting rid off. Why ? , because they will always be the doctor of the President, who btw went to the caribbean because he could not get into med school in the US.

 

[Top Gun]

Dudes, the stigma has nothing to do with how successful one becomes later on. One could be the personal doctor of the President of the United States, but there is a certain feeling of inadequacy that some people have a hard time getting rid off. Why ? , because they will always be the doctor of the President, who btw went to the caribbean because he could not get into med school in the US.

You're right, some people may have that sense of inadequacy. If you personally feel that you will be a second-class physician after you've graduated from the Caribbean, then don't even go there. You can try again to get into a US med school. And if that doesn't work out, there are plenty of other careers out there besides medicine. But, if you have tried several times to get into a US med school without success, but are secure enough in yourself and confident that you have the potential to become an excellent doctor, then try for the Caribbean.

 

[Vermian]

I would have to agree with Top Gun.

I had the the personal stigma before I headed down to the Caribbean myself. I spent 5 years applying - watching people with lower GPAs and MCAT scores all get accepted. I finally decided I had had enough of not moving forward in the career I wanted, so I applied and went to AUC.

Six years later, I am very happy with my decision. I don't hide it from anyone. I gladly tell people where I went to medical school, if they ever ask.

Yes, the more competitive fields will be filled with US graduates. Sometimes those US graduates are foreign nationals who got accepted to that US school that passed me over. Who cares. I worked and got into the field I wanted. It can be done.

I think anyone can accomplish anything (maybe a little naive), but some things may take more effort and not progress along a straight forward path. It does not change the end goal, and it should not change how you feel about yourself. If you don't have enough belief in yourself as a person, the Caribbean route is not for you.

I saw that with one of my classmates. He never thought it would accomplish his goal the whole time we were on the island. Now that he is a fellowship trained infectious disease staff now, I like to remind him of it on occasion. He laughs.

 

[oldpro]

A US student should consider attending a foreign medical school a drastic and last resort option. It is never the same, not even after years in practice and no matter where you did your residency. Unfortunately, the stigma never goes away. To say otherwise would be extremely disingenuous and unrealistic wishful thinking.

The obstacles to return and practice medicine in the US afterwards, the constant "need" of having to "prove" yourself all the time, etc have a huge toll in some people.

This is the perefect example of rightous thinking by some, mostly immature premeds and my constant "Button" type of thinking.

It is simple and small minded really just snobby type of thinking at least.

The truth is ( After over 20 years in medicine my self)

there is no stigma among Other Physicians except for how good you are and the reputation you build as a capable and competent physician,

It way naive to think where you went to school in the world will make a difference when you are incompetent! During my clerkships and rotations no one speaks of where they went to school only how they would never refer a patient or how they have no idea how that Physician stays practicing. Most of these Docs are US GRADS.

And so the few premeds (And God I hope not medical and Residents) will continue to post this trash and make us think we are less,

BUT CARIBBEAN GRADS HOLD THE KEY POSITIONS IN MANY INSTITUTIONS AND SOME ARE PHYSICIANS OF NOTE.

DO not let any of these few snobby people make you think otherwise few of them have practiced in the medical world for 0ver 20 years as I have and I can tell you there is no stigma.


OP MS IV

 

[AngryBaby]

Meh, ignorance is ubiquitous. I try not to deal with the presumptuous ones unless I have to.

 

[oldpro]

Meh, ignorance is ubiquitous. I try not to deal with the presumptuous ones unless I have to.

You know I only care because I do not want these few bad attitudes to spill over to more people, I think as people read this the see that we can show that a lot of the crap posted is just that, Crap, full of half truths and conjecture.

Real Caribbean Students succeeding and showing that this is a viable and honorable path.

Good Luck Ya All

 

[AngryBaby]

You know I only care because I do not want these few bad attitudes to spill over to more people, I think as people read this the see that we can show that a lot of the crap posted is just that, Crap, full of half truths and conjecture.

Real Caribbean Students succeeding and showing that this is a viable and honorable path.

Good Luck Ya All

Yeah I hear what you're saying. I'm not saying my way is the right way, just how I deal with people like that for better or worse.

 

[tantrum]

In many places in the US, especially small cities, nobody cares where you went to school. Most MD's practicing in my area are real FMG's (not even US IMG's) and they do well as the shortage and the medical need is not going away.

 

[Jughead127]

I have a limited knowledge of this subject, and am learning as much as I can, but from what I know I mostly agree with oldpro. I do however think some people should hold out for a US school for an extra year or two before going Caribbean. I believe that most people, from undergrads to physicians, who know anything about the better Caribbean schools would agree that the curriculum of these schools is equal to that of US institutions. The problem comes in residency. For primary care, I am not sure if obtaining/keeping a residency is much of a problem for a Caribbean alum but it may be for something like surgery. I know AUC alums who have been bumped from surgical residency programs after one or two years simply because of where they graduated from. The advice given to me by these graduates and other physicians was this: if you want to get into something like surgery, try for a program in the states at least twice before going Caribbean. Do everything you can to improve your application.

On the other hand, about 90% of the deans of admission for various US med schools that I talked to after being rejected informed me that my undergrad GPA will remain unchanged and the only GPA used when considering admissions. Most of them told me that while getting a Masters or doing post-bac may help, the GPA in these post-grad programs would be worthless. So you may want to look into other ways to boost your resume other than ONLY boosting GPA in grad program.

Again, this is limited info and I'm not taking a position on Caribbean vs. state schools. I am simply offering the advice that was given to me. hope it helps. good luck

 

[Vermian]

I would have to disagree with people being "bumped from surgical residency programs after one or two years simply because of where they graduated from." The ACGME offers strict guidelines for how residents may be fired. If a program is not going to offer to continue your contract in subsequent years, they have to offer documentation as to how they feel you are not progressing adequately. Even if a program tries to fire you without documentation, there are grievance procedures that can be filed through the ACGME. In fact, the only real reason you can be fired outright from a program is a demonstration of gross negligence in patient care. So, I would have to say that the people Jughead knows may have a legitimate case against any program that just fires/doesn't continue the contracts with them.

As an AUC graduate myself in a neurological surgery program, I have seen residents fired. Mainly not in programs other than my own. This whole experience of watching people lose their life after six years of residency made me nervous and forced me to look into what "rights" we have as residents. While there may not be many, there are things that outline what can and cannot be done. Check out the ACGME website for more details on this. I would suggest that maybe there is more to the story than some of those residents may be telling you (ie - clinical skills, ABSite scores, etc.)

 

[oldpro]

I wanted to say something I always do anyway....................Of course for the easiest best future US medical schools are the way to go

But people with with GPA's under 3.3 and MCAT's under 28 are being rejected, so many that they fill the interent with the "What are my chances" or "I did not get an interview this year."

If for one reason or another they do not want to wait or do a Post Bac or jump through the hoops for a US medical school the next few years .............Then the caribbean is viable

And thats what my philosophy is

US medical school
Post Bac
Or Caribbean

all can lead to Practice as a Physician.


Good Luck all