A slew of questions...

[Treesop]

Hi guys,

I've had my mind set on going into surgery for a while but only recently has ENT piqued my interest. I have a number of questions and, as a premed, I'm still ignorant about a lot of things so bear with me...

1. I have had the privilege to be accepted to a few schools this cycle spread throughout the country (NE, Midwest, West Coast though not the big ones in CA/WA). I'm currently leaning towards attending Carver College at the University of Iowa. I know it has a strong ENT department, so I was perplexed when, looking through its match lists, I saw very few students matching/choosing to match into Oto. Those who did didn't seem to have matched to big name programs.

I understand that UIC is a state school and most go into primary care so it may just be a matter of general disinterest in the field, but the lack of "great" matches (other than to Iowa itself of course) for those that were interested worries me. Location is a big thing to me (more so than prestige), and I know that come residency time it will be a priority of mine to match to the west coast. Of course, not an easy feat considering what schools are there...

On the other hand, I see match lists from schools such as Georgetown with a bunch of students matching to "prestigious" locations in ENT such as the UC schools and Harvard. Am I to assume, then, that department rankings only really affect residents and not medical students? I had hoped that UIC having a good ENT program meant that I would have more opportunities to work with top attendings and obtain LORs with more sway.

2. I am well aware that ENT is a very, very competitive field. It will likely only get more competitive in the future. I am also aware that, as a lowly pre-med my preference isn't set in stone (at all). Still, I believe it is important for me to to both acknowledge my current interest in ENT and also work towards leaving my options as open as possible. If I do lose interest in ENT or realize, once medical school begins, that I simply cannot compete academically (or otherwise) in such fields, I don't mind going for general surgery. In fact, ENT and GS are pretty close for me in terms of preference and interest.

My question, then, is this: how should I go about arranging my research projects? I'd like to get started on research as soon as possible, and UIC encourages it early on anyways. But, I don't want to delve into research in a field like, say, dermatology, without any clue of my pre-clinical, clinical, and USMLE abilities.

I know ENT research is very important for ENT residency apps, so would it be "safer" to engage in ENT research even if I'll be gunning for something else later? To put it another way, would doing research in ENT, derm, or other fields I'm curious about, and then applying to general surgery be disadvantageous?

Currently, I'm thinking of doing dermatology research in M1 (just because I'm curious), then ENT for M1-M2 summer, and possibly M2 and M3. (M4 will be used for whatever I am sure I'll be gunning for after M3.) I'm really just worried about shooting myself in the legs by doing a ton of ENT research and then applying for general surgery....or other surgical subspecialties.

3. This may be an ignorant if not idiotic or offensive question so I apologize in advance: Would going to an obscure (relatively speaking) state school like Iowa disadvantage me come residency time? Especially when I would like to apply to schools in the west and NE "big name" schools known to the general pop. (I'm thinking of going into private practice. I'd like to work abroad actually)?

Iowa ranks pretty high on USNews but it seems lower-ranked schools like Tufts, Gtown, BU, NYU, etc. in the northeast crank out equally - if not more prestigious - matches in surgical specialties. With all else being equal (e.g. stats, ECs) will it be more of an uphill battle for me going to Iowa?

4. Finally, and this isn't exactly ENT specific, but is it common/acceptable to do fellowships abroad? I'm referring to places like Western Europe or Japan. I know Japan is big on ENT and neuroscience in general. I'd love to have the opportunity to get a fellowship in neuro-otology there. Will such fellowships be acceptable in Canada or the States? And if so, are they looked down upon? Looked favorably upon? Or would it not matter?

I apologize for the overly long questions and, again, for my general naivety/ignorance. I am completely aware that a slew of variables may change my future route, but despite that I'd still like to educate myself as much as possible on different options and possibilities. I've been significantly disadvantaged in my applications to medical schools because of both my late decision to pursue medicine and my general ignorance of the whole process, and therefore lack of preparation. It has truly been an uphill battle and I do not want a repeat. I want to be on top of my game come residency time.

Thank you in advance for any sort of input, comments, or advice!

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[Chakrabs]

I wouldnt say its easy, but the best way to hit your goal of matching into ENT is to make sure you check all the boxes that program directors look for when choosing residents:
1. Study hard through your first couple years of med school so you can maximize your chances of doing very well on Step 1 and put you in the running for AOA
2. Get involved early with ENT - go to their clinics every now and then to shadow attendings and residents to get to know them, for them to get to know you and to possibly set up a research project or two over the summer of 1st yr
3. Do great on Step1
4. Do great on you clinical rotations, especially medicine and surgery. During your surgery rotation see if you can spend some time on the ENT service to get a real good feel for the day to day activities of the residents to see if its the right field for you.
5. You LOVE ENT and want to do it for the rest of your life! Great, now set up a rotation at your school if you havent spent a month there during gen surg (my school allows you to spend 4 weeks on gen surg and 4 weeks on subspecialty, a lot of students have tried ENT - I did as well and enjoyed it. Perhaps your school does the same)
6. You want to go to the west coast? Well you better set up at least one or two ENT rotations there as well.
7. Apply broadly, shovel money out of your wallet to interview at a slew of programs top-tier, mid-tier, bottom-tier all over the country
8. Rank programs and wait around like a fool twiddling your thumbs like thousands of med students like myself for a month
9. MATCH!

 

[ThePursuit]

Hi guys,

I've had my mind set on going into surgery for a while but only recently has ENT piqued my interest. I have a number of questions and, as a premed, I'm still ignorant about a lot of things so bear with me...

1. I have had the privilege to be accepted to a few schools this cycle spread throughout the country (NE, Midwest, West Coast though not the big ones in CA/WA). I'm currently leaning towards attending Carver College at the University of Iowa. I know it has a strong ENT department, so I was perplexed when, looking through its match lists, I saw very few students matching/choosing to match into Oto. Those who did didn't seem to have matched to big name programs.

I understand that UIC is a state school and most go into primary care so it may just be a matter of general disinterest in the field, but the lack of "great" matches (other than to Iowa itself of course) for those that were interested worries me. Location is a big thing to me (more so than prestige), and I know that come residency time it will be a priority of mine to match to the west coast. Of course, not an easy feat considering what schools are there...

On the other hand, I see match lists from schools such as Georgetown with a bunch of students matching to "prestigious" locations in ENT such as the UC schools and Harvard. Am I to assume, then, that department rankings only really affect residents and not medical students? I had hoped that UIC having a good ENT program meant that I would have more opportunities to work with top attendings and obtain LORs with more sway.

2. I am well aware that ENT is a very, very competitive field. It will likely only get more competitive in the future. I am also aware that, as a lowly pre-med my preference isn't set in stone (at all). Still, I believe it is important for me to to both acknowledge my current interest in ENT and also work towards leaving my options as open as possible. If I do lose interest in ENT or realize, once medical school begins, that I simply cannot compete academically (or otherwise) in such fields, I don't mind going for general surgery. In fact, ENT and GS are pretty close for me in terms of preference and interest.

My question, then, is this: how should I go about arranging my research projects? I'd like to get started on research as soon as possible, and UIC encourages it early on anyways. But, I don't want to delve into research in a field like, say, dermatology, without any clue of my pre-clinical, clinical, and USMLE abilities.

I know ENT research is very important for ENT residency apps, so would it be "safer" to engage in ENT research even if I'll be gunning for something else later? To put it another way, would doing research in ENT, derm, or other fields I'm curious about, and then applying to general surgery be disadvantageous?

Currently, I'm thinking of doing dermatology research in M1 (just because I'm curious), then ENT for M1-M2 summer, and possibly M2 and M3. (M4 will be used for whatever I am sure I'll be gunning for after M3.) I'm really just worried about shooting myself in the legs by doing a ton of ENT research and then applying for general surgery....or other surgical subspecialties.

3. This may be an ignorant if not idiotic or offensive question so I apologize in advance: Would going to an obscure (relatively speaking) state school like Iowa disadvantage me come residency time? Especially when I would like to apply to schools in the west and NE "big name" schools known to the general pop. (I'm thinking of going into private practice. I'd like to work abroad actually)?

Iowa ranks pretty high on USNews but it seems lower-ranked schools like Tufts, Gtown, BU, NYU, etc. in the northeast crank out equally - if not more prestigious - matches in surgical specialties. With all else being equal (e.g. stats, ECs) will it be more of an uphill battle for me going to Iowa?

4. Finally, and this isn't exactly ENT specific, but is it common/acceptable to do fellowships abroad? I'm referring to places like Western Europe or Japan. I know Japan is big on ENT and neuroscience in general. I'd love to have the opportunity to get a fellowship in neuro-otology there. Will such fellowships be acceptable in Canada or the States? And if so, are they looked down upon? Looked favorably upon? Or would it not matter?

I apologize for the overly long questions and, again, for my general naivety/ignorance. I am completely aware that a slew of variables may change my future route, but despite that I'd still like to educate myself as much as possible on different options and possibilities. I've been significantly disadvantaged in my applications to medical schools because of both my late decision to pursue medicine and my general ignorance of the whole process, and therefore lack of preparation. It has truly been an uphill battle and I do not want a repeat. I want to be on top of my game come residency time.

Thank you in advance for any sort of input, comments, or advice!

Damn... I didn't even know what ENT was before I went to med school. You are light years beyond most of your fellow future ENT applicants I think.

One thing to look at is where the faculty from your ENT department have trained in the past. That is often where it will be easiest for them to help you get your foot in the door when applying for aways/residency etc.

It's been stated on here a lot before that the quality of your research is more important than specifically doing something in ENT.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Location is a big thing to me (more so than prestige), and I know that come residency time it will be a priority of mine to match to the west coast. Of course, not an easy feat considering what schools are there...

Lose this bias now before it hurts you later. Geography = nothing. Training = everything.

On the other hand, I see match lists from schools such as Georgetown with a bunch of students matching to "prestigious" locations in ENT such as the UC schools and Harvard. Am I to assume, then, that department rankings only really affect residents and not medical students? I had hoped that UIC having a good ENT program meant that I would have more opportunities to work with top attendings and obtain LORs with more sway.

As a medical student you must absolutely go to a school with an ENT department. If you have the option, choose the school with the ENT department who has the most medical students who go into ENT (meaning accepted into ENT residencies).

Big institutions and big names do not necessarily translate to successful matches. This is something hard for a pre-med and even a med student to figure out. If your institution has a history of getting students into ENT residencies, then that's where you need to go. Numbers aren't important; percentages are. At my medical school, historically only 3-4 students went for ENT; however, in the last 10 years, there was a 100% match (or close) rate. Training in programs is becoming more and more equivalent, so where you go to residency is going to mean less in the future.

My question, then, is this: how should I go about arranging my research projects?

Find someone your first year or even before your first year. Continue research through the 1st and 2nd years and as much as you can during your third year; do research during your rotation with ENT 4th year.

I know ENT research is very important for ENT residency apps, so would it be "safer" to engage in ENT research even if I'll be gunning for something else later? To put it another way, would doing research in ENT, derm, or other fields I'm curious about, and then applying to general surgery be disadvantageous?

Do whatever you can. If you have the option, perhaps do something that has a little bit of cross-over. For example, maybe you could do research on thyroid malignancies or outcomes since this crosses over with GS and endocrinology. You could do researc in sleep apnea since this hits ENT as well as neurology/pulmonary medicine. Head and neck research is always respectable since there are a few traditionally trained GS who do H&N. You could look at lateral or anterior skull base tumors since this crosses over with neurosurgery. THere are a lot of possibilities.

3. This may be an ignorant if not idiotic or offensive question so I apologize in advance: Would going to an obscure (relatively speaking) state school like Iowa disadvantage me come residency time? Especially when I would like to apply to schools in the west and NE "big name" schools known to the general pop. (I'm thinking of going into private practice. I'd like to work abroad actually)?

Iowa is not obscure. Iowa has a respectable ENT program.

Unfortunately, there are programs that will discriminate against you because of where you trained and the region in which you train. This is impossible to avoid and impossible to predict.

Iowa ranks pretty high on USNews but it seems lower-ranked schools like Tufts, Gtown, BU, NYU, etc. in the northeast crank out equally - if not more prestigious - matches in surgical specialties. With all else being equal (e.g. stats, ECs) will it be more of an uphill battle for me going to Iowa?

US News means nothing to anyone, unless you are an institution that is ranked there. And when you are ranked, it means everything.

4. Finally, and this isn't exactly ENT specific, but is it common/acceptable to do fellowships abroad? I'm referring to places like Western Europe or Japan. I know Japan is big on ENT and neuroscience in general. I'd love to have the opportunity to get a fellowship in neuro-otology there. Will such fellowships be acceptable in Canada or the States? And if so, are they looked down upon? Looked favorably upon? Or would it not matter?

Are you talking about research fellowships or fellowships after residency? If the latter, it depends on where you train and what the institution knows you are capable of doing. A foreign fellowship may not be acceptable when it comes to applying for privileges at a hospital.

 

[plauto]

During the ENT residency application process I experienced a huge regional bias. I am from a major Northeast school and the vast majority of interviews I was offered were in the Northeast. Since my SO is from the upper Midwest, I wrote many letters of interest to schools over there and got nothing. I also know of several people from the Midwest who had a tough time getting interviews in the northeast. If being in Cali is a priority for you, I'd definitely try to go to med school there.
Most ENT programs will give you excellent training, so I personally think that geography and fit within the department were the 2 most important reasons for me to draft my rank list.