A final top 30 IM programs list for posterity's sake

[barmay]

Is it just me or is this whole argument of which of the programs is the top 30 IM program getting kind of old. This is going to be just a phase, like going to medical school. In 6 years when we are done with our fellowships, are people really going to care where we did our residency. The general public seems to rate programs according to their football teams anyways. Most of my family for example think that Michigan State and University of Michigan are pretty much the same, and I will really have to be a prick to explain to every person I know that one is more selective then the other.

Anyways, goodluck everyone, and I hope we all get out first choice! I know, highly unlikely, but it will be nice

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[LadyJubilee8_18]

Why are people ranking Vandy so low? I know they are 5th for NIH funding and around 13 on US news rankings

 

[houstoncfh]

Why are people ranking Vandy so low? I know they are 5th for NIH funding and around 13 on US news rankings

Cause it's in the South AND in a state that doesn't touch an ocean.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Cause it's in the South AND in a state that doesn't touch an ocean.

Oh God no OCEAN?!?! I'll never get a good fellowship from there

 

[Scaredshizzles]

Many of my friends are currently residents at Baylor College of Medicine in IM and do not seem to look favorably upon it at all. Since Baylor has lost Methodist (and a good number of their attendings that went with it) and the residents spend nearly all of their time at Ben Taub, which is severely understaffed, and many of them feel overworked, I am curious as to why it is still getting ranked so high by many of you? Yes, BCM has great research funding, but the IM residents there are neither encouraged to, nor ever get the opportunity to do, any research. In fact, I have worked closely with many PIs in clinical departments at BCM and never have any of them interacted with the residents. I am told they still match well for fellowship, but otherwise what benefits does being an IM resident at BCM afford? Thanks!

Keep in mind the ranking I made only had to do with prestige and fellowship placement. I did not place Baylor all that highly and I do sense it is a program on the decline. But it still makes the top 30 taking into account the parameters that I did.

Ben Taub is kind of like BMC. Maybe residents aren't as hardly worked as BMC, but it is a tough program.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

Oh God no OCEAN?!?! I'll never get a good fellowship from there

It kind of depends on how strong you feel Vandy's in house matches are. I took into heavy consideration the USNWR hospital rankings for subspecialties, which I know are not great at reflecting fellowship competitiveness. But Vandy didn't make the top 10 in digestive disorders, cancer, or heart disease, so they didn't rank as highly. And as other said, it doesn't get as many students from the top 10 med schools because it isn't on a coast. But obviously it is a very good program and as I have stated, the difference between most of these programs is very litte. If you're a strong resident who impresses your letter writers and a candidate who was strong before entering residency (like AOA, good board scores), then it won't make that much difference where you go. It is really only the big 4 that come close to guaranteeing you a superb fellowship placement though, even if you aren't thought of as one of the better residents in the program.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

Is it just me or is this whole argument of which of the programs is the top 30 IM program getting kind of old. This is going to be just a phase, like going to medical school. In 6 years when we are done with our fellowships, are people really going to care where we did our residency. The general public seems to rate programs according to their football teams anyways. Most of my family for example think that Michigan State and University of Michigan are pretty much the same, and I will really have to be a prick to explain to every person I know that one is more selective then the other.

Anyways, goodluck everyone, and I hope we all get out first choice! I know, highly unlikely, but it will be nice

The big reason why I did this is that a lot of people throw lists of top programs out there, but they are often just based on gut feeling and hearsay. I think I looked at it more closely and looked at specific objective measures more than most people who have posted lists in the past. And I acknowledge that a lot will not agree with the parameters I looked at (including myself), but they were just easiest to measure, and I felt they were things most people at least consider, in addition to all the other subjective things people consider. I thought my list would be a more objective starting point for people in the future, as opposed to some Hopkins' trainee's subjective/perhaps prejudiced feelings about how the programs rank. The list obviously says nothing about which programs will train you the best to be clinicians.

 

[jbz24]

Well as you all know by now, I've been spending waay too much time analyzing prestige and fellowship placement potential of various im programs. Truly the unfortunate workings of an idle mind with nothing better to do at the moment. I present a final top 30 list, which I think is the result of a fair amount of scientific/objective measures, although I'm sure most will disagree with the measures that I looked at. Keep in mind that I didn't apply to a few of these and did not interview at even more. I didn't want to post this earlier, lest my dumb attempt at an objective list should sway one's last minute ROL decisions, which really should be more about subjective comfort at the programs you interviewed at.

I basically looked at three factors: 1. competitiveness (which I judged by the percentage of residents in the program who hailed from the USNWR top 12 med schools (the research ranking.) I know this is a really bad way to measure it, but I was limited in terms of other objective measures that I could have used. 2. percentage of residents (over the last 3 years) who go on to what I consider the three most competitive IM subspecialties (Cards, GI, and H/O--> I know allergy-immuno is competitive by some measures, but not too many people are really interested in that-->it is an easy way to increase earning potential considerably though without decrease quality of life.) and 3. Of those residents who do go on to those subspecialties, what percentage are at placed at top 10 fellowship programs. (I did not strictly define the top 10, but I loosely based it on USNWR reputation rank of the hospitals, as well as what I saw people on SDN applying for fellowships thought. )

1. JHU
2. BWH
3. MGH
4. UCSF
5. Columbia
6. UPenn
7. Duke
8. Stanford
9. Washington U
10. U of Washington
11. U of Michigan
12. UTSW
13. Cornell
14. UCLA
15. Northwestern
16. BIDMC
17. Mayo
18. Emory
19. U of Chicago
20. Yale
21. Mt. Sinai
22. Vanderbilt
23. UPitt
24. Baylor
25. OHSU
26. NYU
27. UAB
28. UNC
29. Boston U
30. UCSD

Others considered: Maryland, CCF, UVa, U of Colorado, Ohio State, Case, U of Iowa, U of Minnesota, UW-Madison.


If this exercise taught me anything, there are really a lot of good programs out there. Even if you're not so fortunate to match to one of these 30 or so programs, if you really stand out at another residency program, you can still do quite well in terms of fellowship. And obviously some of the other programs are really fantastic at education. Geography is a huge factor in terms of fellowship placement though.

And finally, I know a ton of people will disagree with my ranking strongly. But I did try to do it objectively, but just keep in mind what factors I was looking at. If you disagree strongly with the list, it is probably because you disagree with what I took into account.

I'd switch JHU and BWH, drop UTSW a bit, and drop Northwestern, Mayo, and Emory below Vanderbilt, but otherwise seems pretty accurate to what people here on SDN seem to say.

 

[ImMaster]

I am told they still match well for fellowship, but otherwise what benefits does being an IM resident at BCM afford? Thanks!

I was told by my faculty adviser that the BCM residency program is known for their strong clinical training. Although it does seem that they have been hurt by the loss of Methodist, Ben Taub is still a ridiculous county hospital that offers some unique learning experiences and crazy pathology.

Likewise, for some reason I was under the impression that they did provide ample research opportunity, but even if we assume it is weaker than other top tier programs, I think their clinical reputation makes up for it as reflected in their fellowship match. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Moonglow]

Academic program rankings aren't popularity contests. You guys need to get an understanding of what an IM residency ranking might mean, and for what it would be used. And since I am on a residency adcomm...

Vandy's IM residency is considered "cush", similar to BIDMC, Northwestern and Stanford.

I worked at Baylor/UT-H for four years (when I attended Rice), so:

Baylor College IM has not been "hurt" by the "loss of Methodist" (BCM residents still rotate there). Most residents (and Baylor professors) are based at St. Luke's! And PAHLEASE, Ben Taub is NOT understaffed in any way. Have any of you ever BEEN to Baylor and the Texas Medical Center? Sheesh, get a grip people.

 

[houstoncfh]

Academic program rankings aren't popularity contests. You guys need to get an understanding of what an IM residency ranking might mean, and for what it would be used. And since I am on a residency adcomm...

Vandy's IM residency is considered "cush", similar to BIDMC, Northwestern and Stanford.

I worked at Baylor/UT-H for four years (when I attended Rice), so:

Baylor College IM has not been "hurt" by the "loss of Methodist" (BCM residents still rotate there). Most residents (and Baylor professors) are based at St. Luke's! And PAHLEASE, Ben Taub is NOT understaffed in any way. Have any of you ever BEEN to Baylor and the Texas Medical Center? Sheesh, get a grip people.

Granted I interviewed there in November, but if I recall correctly, Vandy is q4 overnight and q3 in the unit. That's cush?

 

[ResidentMD]

Academic program rankings aren't popularity contests. You guys need to get an understanding of what an IM residency ranking might mean, and for what it would be used. And since I am on a residency adcomm...

Vandy's IM residency is considered "cush", similar to BIDMC, Northwestern and Stanford.

I worked at Baylor/UT-H for four years (when I attended Rice), so:

Baylor College IM has not been "hurt" by the "loss of Methodist" (BCM residents still rotate there). Most residents (and Baylor professors) are based at St. Luke's! And PAHLEASE, Ben Taub is NOT understaffed in any way. Have any of you ever BEEN to Baylor and the Texas Medical Center? Sheesh, get a grip people.

I have spoken to quite a few Vandy residents and faculty and NONE of them say it is cush; it is considered one of the most rigorous university training programs in the country.

Also if you attended Rice, how long ago was that? I dont think BCM residents rotate at Methodist anymore.

I would really like to see a BCM/Methodist/UTH resident comment on this, because it appears to me that whatever Moonglow says needs to be taken with tons of salt.

 

[ResidentMD]

Granted I interviewed there in November, but if I recall correctly, Vandy is q4 overnight and q3 in the unit. That's cush?

Btw isnt the overnight call for 9 months in intern year? I may be wrong, but I thought I read that somewhere....

 

[Scaredshizzles]

I have spoken to quite a few Vandy residents and faculty and NONE of them say it is cush; it is considered one of the most rigorous university training programs in the country.

Also if you attended Rice, how long ago was that? I dont think BCM residents rotate at Methodist anymore.

I would really like to see a BCM/Methodist/UTH resident comment on this, because it appears to me that whatever Moonglow says needs to be taken with tons of salt.

They don't rotate at Methodist, which was considered the best of the hospitals they used to rotate at. (I interviewed at Baylor.)

As far as whether or not he is on a residency adcomm, means nothing. Why would a residency adcomm know anything more about how the different IM residencies compare? They might have a specific med school ranking system (likely tier based) to help evaluate the quality of applicants, but that doesn't tell you anything about im programs. A residency adcomm person is likely more biased than anyone on what she considers to be the best im programs.

 

[RonBurgandy]

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[BlazerMed]

Btw isnt the overnight call for 9 months in intern year? I may be wrong, but I thought I read that somewhere....

Yes, and it's overnight call throughout residency on inpatient months. There is no nightfloat.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Btw isnt the overnight call for 9 months in intern year? I may be wrong, but I thought I read that somewhere....

Yes, 9 months. One of the reasons why I almost didn't rank them first is because the schedule is really rigorous.

 

[ResidentMD]

Yes, 9 months. One of the reasons why I almost didn't rank them first is because the schedule is really rigorous.

True, true. But LJ, your heart was with Vandy from the start . I hope you match there.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

True, true. But LJ, your heart was with Vandy from the start . I hope you match there.

Very true, we'll see on match day!

 

[BlazerMed]

Yes, 9 months. One of the reasons why I almost didn't rank them first is because the schedule is really rigorous.

On the plus side, you don't have to *do* night float. I thought that was a very attractive part of Vandy's scheduling.

 

[jdh71]

Academic program rankings aren't popularity contests. You guys need to get an understanding of what an IM residency ranking might mean, and for what it would be used. And since I am on a residency adcomm...

Vandy's IM residency is considered "cush", similar to BIDMC, Northwestern and Stanford.

I worked at Baylor/UT-H for four years (when I attended Rice), so:

Baylor College IM has not been "hurt" by the "loss of Methodist" (BCM residents still rotate there). Most residents (and Baylor professors) are based at St. Luke's! And PAHLEASE, Ben Taub is NOT understaffed in any way. Have any of you ever BEEN to Baylor and the Texas Medical Center? Sheesh, get a grip people.

Every time you post, I swear you post a bunch of bull****.

 

[jdh71]

Why are people ranking Vandy so low? I know they are 5th for NIH funding and around 13 on US news rankings

Don't post in here - it's a TRAP!!!

 

[jdh71]

On the plus side, you don't have to *do* night float. I thought that was a very attractive part of Vandy's scheduling.

Bah! Night float's not that bad.

 

[ResidentMD]

Don't post in here - it's a TRAP!!!

Truer words have been rarely said.

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree w/much of above...outside of the Harvards, UCSF, Hopkins, the rest of these programs on the list are about the same in terms of prestige, and you could argue endlessly about which one is "better". Best to pick one that fits YOU best, and/or pick by geography in terms of the region you want to end up practicing and/or do fellowship. I do think there are regional biases in fellowship placement. So if you want fellowship in the northeast, would be better to get yourself into Boston, New York or Penn, etc. than go to Emory or Vanderbilt or out West (unless it's UCSF).

Vanderbilt has no night float, Q3-Q4 overnight call, and was up to 10.5 months of overnight call as an intern (unless they have changed a lot in the past couple of years). A friend of mine went there and got 10.5 months overnight call as an intern...one clinic month 2 weeks vacation). He got a very good renal fellowship, though. Not a lot of scutwork there, but it's not what you'd call "cushy".

 

[EPADHA]

Well as you all know by now, I've been spending waay too much time analyzing prestige and fellowship placement potential of various im programs. Truly the unfortunate workings of an idle mind with nothing better to do at the moment. I present a final top 30 list, which I think is the result of a fair amount of scientific/objective measures, although I'm sure most will disagree with the measures that I looked at. Keep in mind that I didn't apply to a few of these and did not interview at even more. I didn't want to post this earlier, lest my dumb attempt at an objective list should sway one's last minute ROL decisions, which really should be more about subjective comfort at the programs you interviewed at.

I basically looked at three factors: 1. competitiveness (which I judged by the percentage of residents in the program who hailed from the USNWR top 12 med schools (the research ranking.) I know this is a really bad way to measure it, but I was limited in terms of other objective measures that I could have used. 2. percentage of residents (over the last 3 years) who go on to what I consider the three most competitive IM subspecialties (Cards, GI, and H/O--> I know allergy-immuno is competitive by some measures, but not too many people are really interested in that-->it is an easy way to increase earning potential considerably though without decrease quality of life.) and 3. Of those residents who do go on to those subspecialties, what percentage are at placed at top 10 fellowship programs. (I did not strictly define the top 10, but I loosely based it on USNWR reputation rank of the hospitals, as well as what I saw people on SDN applying for fellowships thought. )

1. JHU
2. BWH
3. MGH
4. UCSF
5. Columbia
6. UPenn
7. Duke
8. Stanford
9. Washington U
10. U of Washington
11. U of Michigan
12. UTSW
13. Cornell
14. UCLA
15. Northwestern
16. BIDMC
17. Mayo
18. Emory
19. U of Chicago
20. Yale
21. Mt. Sinai
22. Vanderbilt
23. UPitt
24. Baylor
25. OHSU
26. NYU
27. UAB
28. UNC
29. Boston U
30. UCSD

Others considered: Maryland, CCF, UVa, U of Colorado, Ohio State, Case, U of Iowa, U of Minnesota, UW-Madison.


If this exercise taught me anything, there are really a lot of good programs out there. Even if you're not so fortunate to match to one of these 30 or so programs, if you really stand out at another residency program, you can still do quite well in terms of fellowship. And obviously some of the other programs are really fantastic at education. Geography is a huge factor in terms of fellowship placement though.

And finally, I know a ton of people will disagree with my ranking strongly. But I did try to do it objectively, but just keep in mind what factors I was looking at. If you disagree strongly with the list, it is probably because you disagree with what I took into account.

mostly agree, but would remind you that competitiveness does not equal perceived reputation in academic circles ( I think that's got to do mostly with NIH funding and how many movers and shakers are there in each department). Would move vandy and UAB to the same level as 16-20. Would drop mayo slightly down to say early 20s. Pitt is also not very competitive- shd move down.

 

[futureres]

Academic IM residency, perceptions by group:

1. JHU




2. MGH
3. UCSF

4. Duke
5. Penn
6. B&W

7. Washington U.
8. UCLA
9. U. Washington

10. U. Michigan
11. UT-SW

12. Columbia
13. Baylor College
14. Cornell
15. BIDMC

16. Stanford
17. Vanderbilt
18. U. Chicago
19. Northwestern

20. Yale
21. Mt. Sinai
22. UPitt

I'm laughing so hard I'm in tears...literally. JHU>>MGH and UCSF? Duke and Penn over the Brigham?? Columbia at #12?? Wow...

The utility of SDN for me officially expired at 9 pm on Feb 24. Hearing the interview trail stories has been entertaining, and sometimes the gossip has held a kernel of truth (on occasion). But I cannot understand the compulsive need to do these types of rankings in an infinite # of threads, or even worse, the "mine is bigger than yours" ROL rank list posts that popped up after the rank list deadline. At this point, does any of this really matter? Go where you want. Take care everyone. Good luck.