a day in the life of a Dublin Med Student

[lawrencepena]

i was wondering what the daily life of a med student in Dublin was like. Do you study everyday, how many hours a day are spent in lecture/lab? do many students do research or work? is the research paid for? do you socialize alot? how often do you get to get to mainland europe?

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[leorl]

Heh. This is going to be different for everyone. Mine is atypical. Depends on what you do and how committed you are to doing it. I'll give you my typical day:

wake up: 6:00, cycle to training 6:30, train from 6:45 to 8:00. then shower
9:00 - into hospital if it's James's. If in Tallaght, in for 10:00. Have to notify consultant that I will not be able to make ward rounds (7:00 for surgery, 9:00 am for medicine) when training.
5:00 - out of hospital. Now, this varies. Sometimes you'll be home at 1:00 pm, sometimes you might not be out til 6 pm. Depends on how much there is on that day and how much effort you put into it. I don't put very much effort into it.
6:30 pm - training again til 8:00 pm. Dinner, shower til 9:00.
Try to study at 9 pm, but often doesn't work and I just veg on the couch.
I generally do all my studying on the weekends after I'm done training (8 am - noon or 1 pm).

Of course, there's the odd party and going to see movies and stuff...studying will be the first thing sacrificed for me . Cram during exam time. I don't do much travelling because I spend so much time training and we go abroad to race so that's when I travel. I'll do more once I'm finished with this sport (i.e. next year). And also, I'm in my clinical years which are more time-intensive than your non-clinical years. pre-clinical..you might have a day or two that's 9-5, but then you'll get a day where you only have one lecture...or even none at all. And there's loads of skipping going on anyway.

Others go travelling at the weekends, especially if there's a bank holiday weekend. Skip a Friday or a Monday of class/hospital and go for an extended stay. Others also have more evening time to put into studying. Essentially, there's pretty much ample time to do what you want.

Labs generally last 2 hours. Some may go longer.

Research...if you want to do research, usually it's during the summer. You could get grants for payment, but this usually isn't very much. Or, you could do it for free...and get "experience." The only people I know who do research during the year had connections with an American PI who happened to be setting up research in Dublin. Not that many people do research, and it's a lot of the North Americans who will seek research ops. I did research two summers - the first was with a grant, the 2nd I was paid by the department.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Cool thread.

Now I have heard from many people that the 5 year programs in Dublin simply stretch out the 4 year programs in the USA/Canada. Do you find this to be true? It sounds like you have much more free time. Do you find the learning environment better that way?

 

[Badkarma25]

speaking for myself having finished 2 years at ucd, there is PLENTY of leisure time...you could easily have a part-time job (i work 20 hours per week), travel LOTS, play sports, etc etc etc.....lots of holiday time (nearly a month at xmas, 3 weeks at easter, 4 mos after 1st and 2nd year)......definitely stretched out.....

 

[leorl]

Definitely. I find you learn the information a bit better because you have more time to absorb. However, this doesn't really help you for the USMLE because the info is presented in a different way and the format isn't the same. Anyway, so instead of cramming all of anatomy/neuroanatomy into 6 months-a year, it's stretched out over 2. There will be reinforcing things like you'll get an intro to pharm one year, and then the next year you will basically see all the same drugs again only now it's presented into a systems-based approach. Same with micro. Spreading path out over 1.5 years is also a good thing. So pretty much, less cramming to be done and more chance for integration because topics are going to repeat. I personally like having a life. and by having a life, it means doing extracurriculars to the degree and intensity that I want to (I don't mean more time to watch tv and party, although you could probably do that too). Having said that, I am not the best student because I give my time up for other things, but those who aren't so involved in other activities are able to study to the degree they need .

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Interesting points.

I guess the biggest concern is USMLE I. That determines how competitive you might be in the match as a FMG. Anyone taken it while in ireland yet who is on the board?

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Secondly, I would be interested in a couple of other issues.

1) How well prepared is the med grad from ireland in comparison to the US med grad? After the 5 years in Ireland are you working at the same level as the 4 year from the USA with the same understanding?

2) How is medicine different in Ireland? Is there a decreased dependancy on technology due to monetary restraints? IE: 1 CT scanner between 2 hospitals and its seldom used due to cost of socialized medicine. This was (to a lesser degree) common where i practiced in Canada yet I find technology and testing OVERUSED in the USA in the name of medico-legal liability.

Thanks again!

 

[leorl]

I haven't experienced this myself because I haven't done any rotations myself in the US yet. But one of the things that I keep hearing is that the Irish grads are a little more clinically competent when it comes to diagnosing, without ordering a battery of tests. Technology is overused in the US and so because of being behind technologically, apparently we're able to think through things a bit more. I find just that in every day life, not having the same conveniences at your fingertips at exactly the moment you want them does make you more resourceful. From what people on clinicals have been saying, we're a lot more comfortable doing histories/presentations/examinations and more comfortable interacting with the patients without freezing and acting like a deer caught in headlights. But then the US students get to do more procedural things...so there's things both sets of students have to play catch up on.

In terms of being at the same level...you can't really compare. I think the same level of understanding is there, but it takes us...and all FMGs awhile to adapt to the US system. For instance, the way notes are written in charts are different here, so you have to learn how to write SOAP notes. Little things like that are going to take a little while to adjust to, but people catch up quickly. I think they do their H&Ps a little differently too.

I am currently in the process of taking Step 1 (take it on Thursday). So I don't exactly know how well I'll do yet. However, there are some things that we are not taught that you will have to go through yourself. 1) we don't do molecular/cell bio or genetics. You'll need to do that yourself. 2) we do histology and embryology but weakly 3) biochem..i was exempt from biochem so the stuff on the USMLE isn't exactly my strongsuit. But you will have to bone up on this yourself too. You'll see when you get there...the information is presented differently...the USMLE likes syndromes and likes you to be able to recognize syndromes by name. While important eventually, this isn't something we really focus on during our training.

 

[whoam]

Can someone explain what the difference is between Ireland and USA, everyone mentions that it is different, but no one says how it is different. leorl, you have tried to state some differences in the post above, but can you or anyone else expand on that, and also explain how the test questions are and how do they differ from USMLE questions.

 

[leorl]

Again, I repeat I'll make make a sticky post regarding USMLE and other quetions after I take the USMLE this week. It's quite difficult to explain sometimes..just like trying to explain the differences between Irish and US culture is tricky...because the differences are more subtle. Also, I am not too familiar with the US ed aspect because ...well...I'm in Dublin.

I'll do very big differences for right now. Academically, exams/finals are essay style. This is different from what we're used to, and takes awhile to get used to it. Imagine having to explain the entirety of glycolysis + Krebs cycle in essay style...and in an interesting fashion too without just making a list of the enzymes and intermediates. Or the same in physiology, when it'd be a lot easier just to draw diagrams or answer in multiple choice. Writing in essay style with no prompts means you have to KNOW it, and KNOW THE WHOLE THING absolutely cold. You can imagine when you're in medicine and have to know...well...everything, how this can build up. So it really tests your full knowledge, without any "cheats."

They do have some MCQs. But they're tricky. They're not like the MCQs we're used to...we tend to be more straightforward in the US. The answer is for the most part, the answer. It's trickier...and somehow a different style of MCQ. I'll try to explain this better later, because I haven't exactly put my finger on it myself.

If you fail an exam (it's not too difficult to fail), but are borderline (or if you're borderline honors) they give you a chance to try to boost your grade by an oral examination (viva). If you thought trying to think through things on an essay was difficult, trying to do it orally is a different sort of tricky.

Anyway, that's a start.

 

[Badkarma25]

hi there
just a quick note on clinical competence of irish med students vs north american (take it with a grain of salt as i havent' done any clinical training this is just from a very good friend of mine who is in final med at trinity).

this friend of mine has done several electives in surgical subspecialties in southern ontario (university of western ontario), and overall, he said that he felt very unprepared for his electives. this guy is an academic animal (i've seen grade reports), lots of 1sts, good letters of references, works his a$$ off all the time. he said overall in terms of knowledge he felt fine but in terms of managing patients he felt very inadequate. he was working in a surgical outpatient clinic with a resident who said "ok so i'm not sure how you guys do things in dublin but here's a dictation number, here's some charts, go for it. you do the history and exam, and whatever you come up with goes in the chart, we'll sign off on it. you're ok with writing prescriptions right?" talk about independence. now i've heard from this guy and other friends of mine who are in clinical training at various dublin schools that this is NOT AT ALL how it is in the dublin hospitals. i know a lot of it varies with your level of enthusiasm and how much you want to put in, but the overall feeling i've gotten from at least 90% of the people i know in clinical training is that, for the most part, you are treated like you're in the way in dublin. so my friend standing in this clinic was like "um, we don't have quite that much responsibility".

so it seems that the level of responsibility given to north american students, and hence, the amount of valuable skills they develop because of shouldering this responsibility is a lot greater than you will likely get in dublin....this is just one example.....i'm sure other people have others and that they are all so negative....

 

[Badkarma25]

figured i'd throw my 2 cents into the mix with this whole day in the life of thing...

my days are quite different from leorl's as i don't participate in organized sport which forms a large part of her day.

i've just finished 2nd med at ucd (going into my 3rd starting in 2 weeks), and we never have lectures before 9am, so the earliest i have to be up is like 7:30am (live about 20-25 min walk from school, no bus route).

never have had more than 5-6 hours of stuff a day (mix of lectures, labs). always dedicated break in lectures between 1pm and 2pm for lunch. have the odd tutorial afterwards, never finish later than 5pm. average hours per week spent in lectures, labs, tutorials etc never greater than 25 hours, so there its LOTS of free time.

speaking for myself, i do not study everday, barely every week. lots of time to party and go out. the group of people i hang around with are for the most part more social than studious. this is mostly, i think, due to the fact that everyone i hang around with is north american with a minimum of 2 years of undergrad experience (most have bachelor's degrees in basic medical sciences), and quite frankly, for anyone with that background, the first 2 years are not taxing at all. so i go out a fair bit. i have a part-time job as a waiter/bartender at a hotel in dublin and during the school term i work 20 hours a week (the maximum amount that you can legally work as a foreign student in dublin). it's a pretty legit place so they stick to the 20 hour max. i work 2 nights a week between thursday and saturday, usually from around 4 or 5pm until 2 or 3am. so even with workign 20 hours a week and in school 20-25 hours a week, that still barely makes up a full work week in the real world.....so there is lots of time to travel etc. this past year (2nd med) we had nothing on fridays after 11am, so you basically get 3 day weekends.....overall very easy schedule.....not sure how it's going to be when we get into the hospitals but that's how it's been so far....

 

[DrMann2010]

I believe that it is really unfair for one person to say it's really easy out here, and you've got a lot of time to do loads of things. Some people are extremely lucky and just have an IQ that's abnormaly HIGH. But, like most of the population, there are those of us who have to study day and night to achieve the same level as a person with a greater ability to understand and memorize information at a faster rate, much faster rate. Nevertheless, the workload, I find, is really what you make it to be, and the goals you set for the future. If you're looking to be able to get residency programs back in the states at top uni hospitals, then obviously you'll have to stand fairly high amongst your peers, and other FMG's. So, honestly, what may seem to one person as an ocean of free time to another it may seem less than a raindrop!! Generally, I find that if you are not the exceptionally gifted, and you want to place extremely well, you will not have that free time that people are saying they do! Really - it depends what your priorities are!

 

[dr strangelove]

I believe that it is really unfair for one person to say it's really easy out here, and you've got a lot of time to do loads of things. Some people are extremely lucky and just have an IQ that's abnormaly HIGH. But, like most of the population, there are those of us who have to study day and night to achieve the same level as a person with a greater ability to understand and memorize information at a faster rate, much faster rate. Nevertheless, the workload, I find, is really what you make it to be, and the goals you set for the future. If you're looking to be able to get residency programs back in the states at top uni hospitals, then obviously you'll have to stand fairly high amongst your peers, and other FMG's. So, honestly, what may seem to one person as an ocean of free time to another it may seem less than a raindrop!! Generally, I find that if you are not the exceptionally gifted, and you want to place among top 20 in your class, you will not have that free time that people are saying they do! Really, it depends what your priorities are!

I'm probably going to get shouted down for saying this again, but as I commented in the 'Irish Medical Schools Review' thread, medicine is not hard. You'll probably hate me for this, but I finished in the top 30 in a class of 250 having done 2 weeks of real work by the end of the year. For the rest of the year it was maybe 10 hours a week in class ( I skipped quite a few ) and 5 hours of study. I don't have an abnormally high IQ either - I couldn't even get in as an undergraduate.

I found the subjects in my 1st year in science far more demanding than my 1st year in medicine, and I believe that if you can handle a science degree, medicine should be no problem. I think a lot of the general population is under the impression that you have to be very smart to be a doctor, which is wrong. The only reason why you have to be smart is due to an entry system operating in most countries that rewards intelligence over character. This is wrong on so many levels, but I guess they allow it as its easier to measure intelligence than personality. But I digress.

DrMann2010, sometimes it's possible to work too hard. If you get worked up and stressed about study, it makes everything much harder to take in. At least, that's my experience. And I should know from the cramming I did for my science exams!

 

[leorl]

The learning curve is different for people. Some people read things once and they've got it, some people have to see things 10 million times before it sinks in, some people can pick up one subject very easily and find another subject quite difficult. I'd say you do have to put in your time studying, but you don't have to make it your entire world. The trick is to find a balance. I'm not the best person to give advice because I don't study very much, devote a lot of time to other things, and I have to cram material in a lot instead of learning it well the first time. But I'm doing decently enough and avoiding being in the rather sizeable group each year that has to do supplementals.

I'm sure you've heard it from other people. Medicine in itself isn't hard in the material that you have to learn. It's easy to understand and pretty straight-forward. What can make it difficult is the amount that you have to learn and retain - the volume can be overwhelming sometimes. But there are courses which would be harder to understand and interpret than those that you see in medicine.

 

[leorl]

With regards to clinicals, yeah - we do have to make an adjustment. They are given more responsibility in the US. But those of us going to do electives in the US know this, and prepare for it. We know that we have to know our stuff and that we'll have to catch up on procedural things. If you can during your rotations, grab an intern or SHO and make them show you how to put in lines and let you practice. Have someone who's done an elective show you how to write up soap notes. It's just a different system that you have to get used to, I wouldn't say that you are unprepared to do it.